Christie Eclipse Projector - Page 17 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #481 of 858 Old 11-29-2018, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post


However, the phenomenon to which I believe you are referring is more to do with the fact that there is a minimum threshold for ON/OFF contrast below which the black floor is so poor that it is very very noticeable and in fact considered to be intolerable by many, myself included. And when going from 2,000 - 30,000:1 ON/OFF this has the additional benefit of transitioning from intolerable to very good, and so this could indeed be considered to be more fundamental than when going from 30,000:1 to 1000,000:1

Agreed you are correct, I would add that many who prefer DLP (two of whom you know well) feel the same way about ANSI, and feel 300 is unacceptably low. For them going from 300 to 950+ has an equally dramatic improvement (when combined with high on/off).



The other point not addressed is the impact of High on/off and high ANSI on your iris when viewing powerful HDR content. Your iris has to concurrently and/or rapidly process very bright peaks and low very black levels, often at the same instant, which appears to significantly increase the apparent brightness. Its the only way I can explain being able to comfortably watch a 15K lumen conventional projector but having to dim a 7K High ANSI high on/off one watching both on the same screen. This effect must also lower the perceived black level as your iris is constantly contracting to deal with the high ANSI peaks, and therefore limit this visible improvement of raising the on/off under those conditions.
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post #482 of 858 Old 11-29-2018, 02:02 PM
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Agreed you are correct, I would add that many who prefer DLP (two of whom you know well) feel the same way about ANSI, and feel 300 is unacceptably low. For them going from 300 to 950+ has an equally dramatic improvement (when combined with high on/off).

The other point not addressed is the impact of High on/off and high ANSI on your iris when viewing powerful HDR content. Your iris has to concurrently and/or rapidly process very bright peaks and low very black levels, often at the same instant, which appears to significantly increase the apparent brightness. Its the only way I can explain being able to comfortably watch a 15K lumen conventional projector but having to dim a 7K High ANSI high on/off one watching both on the same screen. This effect must also lower the perceived black level as your iris is constantly contracting to deal with the high ANSI peaks, and therefore limit this visible improvement of raising the on/off under those conditions.
Well speaking of the JVC eShift lamp-based projectors, at max ON/OFF contrast performance the ANSI is actually circa 200:1... So we are quite literally talking a magnitude of 500% greater with respect to the projector you are talking about and this Christie projector!

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post #483 of 858 Old 11-30-2018, 03:08 AM
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I should preference my comment with a reference point for measured calibrated on/off. My reference projector for this among the current croup is the top JVC bulb projectors. I'm referring to Nigel's measured results since he also measured the projector in question. His measured on/off for the bulb JVC's was 30,000:1 about the same for projector in question. His calibrated measurements for the JVC and Sony lasers are closer to 15,000:1. Neither of these projectors can produce the 3D depth of picture or color pop and peak punch of an OLED or the high on/off and high ANSI projectors. Even with the bulb JVC projector an inky black star lite sky is 2D with no depth and the stars don't punch out almost coming out of the screen. You can see this effect on CLDIS or the best OLED, increasing on/off alone will not give it to you.
You're comparing apples with oranges there though. Firstly the on/off contrast for the JVC's you mention is their native contrast, the on/off contrast for the unit you're referring to is, I believe, its dynamic contrast - its native contrast is significantly lower. The dynamic contrast on the JVC's is also significantly higher; think 120,000:1+. You also have to consider your're comparing the performance of a $10k projector against that of a, what, $130k projector?

I don't disagree that a high ANSI is nice to have, but its simply not as important as on/off, and no projector that delivers 30,000:1 on/off is going to deliver an OLED like image because the reason OLED look as good as they do is because they have massive on/off due to their ability to present almost perfect blacks, which a 30,000:1 projector can't do. The only projector that I'm aware of that can, is this new Christie, which is the subject or this thread.
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post #484 of 858 Old 11-30-2018, 06:18 PM
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I have a newbie question about this projector. If it hit 540 nits on a painted wall with no sparkling, how high could it go before sparkling started? Say on the Dreamweave V6 fabric? Could you up it from the 30K to the 60K version and double the light, or would that be a sparkling nightmare?

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post #485 of 858 Old 12-01-2018, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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The lack of RGB laser artifacting at the demonstration was likely more due to the laser wavelength diversity employed than total output. This isn't to mention the fact that ,at least during the morning when I was there, it was running full out I believe. Getting 500 nits on something that gigantic with perfect black is something to behold.
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post #486 of 858 Old 12-01-2018, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by fizban16 View Post
I have a newbie question about this projector. If it hit 540 nits on a painted wall with no sparkling, how high could it go before sparkling started? Say on the Dreamweave V6 fabric? Could you up it from the 30K to the 60K version and double the light, or would that be a sparkling nightmare?
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The lack of RGB laser artifacting at the demonstration was likely more due to the laser wavelength diversity employed than total output. This isn't to mention the fact that ,at least during the morning when I was there, it was running full out I believe. Getting 500 nits on something that gigantic with perfect black is something to behold.
The laser speckle is caused by the narrow wavelengths of the respective laser modules, hence by utilizing a wide array of differing wavelengths the speckle is minimized. Consequently, when operating at full whack there was no perceivable increase in speckle.

During the morning, when the image was circa 540 nits, this was not in fact running full out, but at circa 16,500 lumens. Running full out, namely circa 30,000 lumens, the on screen (on the painted wall) peak luminance was circa 800 nits, and this is not with respect to a 10% window, which is what the peak luminance figures for OLED TVs correspond to, but the full field white luminance !

It was quite literally too bright to look at the full field white image and yet this was accompanied by absolute perfect blacks.

In this regard, it actually outperforms OLED TVs. And in fact, it also outperforms OLED TVs with respect to other aspects of video performance as well, such as the chroma performance, uniformity, and banding to name just a few. So I wasn't kidding or exaggerating when I said in my review that it significantly outperforms not only all other projectors, but also all other video display devices that I can think of with respect to overall video performance, across all formats, and this includes OLED TVs. It really is the new reference standard against which everything else should be compared

The video performance of this projector is more akin to that of the new flagship Sony BVM HX310 Master Reference Monitor but with a screen size that's 18 - 20' wide!

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post #487 of 858 Old 12-01-2018, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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During the morning, when the image was circa 540 nits, this was not in fact running full out, but at circa 16,500 lumens. Running full out, namely circa 30,000 lumens, the on screen (on the painted wall) peak luminance was circa 800 nits, and this is not with respect to a 10% window, which is what the peak luminance figures for OLED TVs correspond to, but the full field white luminance !

It was quite literally too bright to look at the full field white image and yet this was accompanied by absolute perfect blacks.





Knowing that makes it all the more impressive.
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post #488 of 858 Old 12-01-2018, 01:30 PM
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Thanks for the answers guys! That's amazing. Oh to have more money.

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post #489 of 858 Old 12-01-2018, 06:10 PM
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What if they had brought the 60K lumen one? Would it be able to pump out 1600 nits at 100%? That would be crazy!

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post #490 of 858 Old 12-01-2018, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fizban16 View Post
What if they had brought the 60K lumen one? Would it be able to pump out 1600 nits at 100%? That would be crazy!

I think if you go back through the thread the answers are within. Nigel was very thorough .


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post #491 of 858 Old 12-01-2018, 09:35 PM
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Seems this will be the best of projector technology and only walls will replace in the future. And “only” a little more than two 5000s . SJ
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post #492 of 858 Old 12-02-2018, 12:02 PM
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Did I miss it? Or did Art it Nigel actually post the MSRP of this projector at its various available luminance levels?
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post #493 of 858 Old 12-02-2018, 12:39 PM
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Did I miss it? Or did Art it Nigel actually post the MSRP of this projector at its various available luminance levels?
Nope. That information is bound by NDA at the present time
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post #494 of 858 Old 12-02-2018, 02:07 PM
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In short, I consider that this new Christie projector is the new benchmark against which all other projectors will now need to be compared. So I am going to spend one more session with this other projector such that my review does precisely this. Also, I need to take some further measurements that I believe will help explain why the perceived performance is as good as it is

Also it is worth bearing in mind that the MSRP is 130K - 150K... and there are a couple of aspects that might be an issue for some (but not all) people

I would have completed this a while ago but unfortunately I had a personal matter that needed attending to, and this is the main cause for the delay.

I thought this covered the MSRP?? Maybe got my projectors mixed up. lol... SJ

This likely will only cover the down payment to get on the pre-sales list.

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post #495 of 858 Old 12-02-2018, 02:40 PM
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You're comparing apples with oranges there though. Firstly the on/off contrast for the JVC's you mention is their native contrast, the on/off contrast for the unit you're referring to is, I believe, its dynamic contrast - its native contrast is significantly lower. The dynamic contrast on the JVC's is also significantly higher; think 120,000:1+. You also have to consider your're comparing the performance of a $10k projector against that of a, what, $130k projector?

I don't disagree that a high ANSI is nice to have, but its simply not as important as on/off, and no projector that delivers 30,000:1 on/off is going to deliver an OLED like image because the reason OLED look as good as they do is because they have massive on/off due to their ability to present almost perfect blacks, which a 30,000:1 projector can't do. The only projector that I'm aware of that can, is this new Christie, which is the subject or this thread.

Sorry for the confusion on Nigel's measurements (but he did write them on his post). I used the JVC's and Sony as a reference as they are the highest on/off projectors that I have watched. I did not include the Sony D-Cinema (which is closer in price) but has lower on/off that the HT models. That said the actual numbers have no bearing on my observations. If on/off alone was that critical then the JVC (bulb) projector in a pitch black room on a small enough screen would produce the best HDR picture, that is not the case. Please remember all my comments relate to HDR playback.



I also don't question that with a 200-300 ANSI projector that you can see a significant difference between 30,000:1 on/off and one with 1,000,000:1. What I am saying is watching HDR content on a high ANSI (950+) projector with 30,000:1 on/off produces the appearance of a black level floor as low as the JVC, with inky blacks and no need for top/bottom masking. I'm sure this is even more so with the Christie. I believe this is due to the high ANSI and ON/OFF HDR impact on the iris as I mentioned in a previous post.


The CLDIS does not exceed OLED performance based on its black level floor but rather on the high level of nits it can punch out on relatively small areas of the screen. ANSI is probably not the best measure as its 50/50. Some of flat panel manufacturers have moved to nits levels achieved on areas <10% of the screen area, but a projector needs a high ANSI to even begin to approach that level of on screen contrast and focused pop.



I would also agree that there are dark low contrast scenes where there would be little HDR effect and the extra on/off would be more noticeable.
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I thought this covered the MSRP?? Maybe got my projectors mixed up. lol... SJ

This likely will only cover the down payment to get on the pre-sales list.
If you read the posts to which I was responding you will note that I am referring to a completely different projector

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post #497 of 858 Old 12-02-2018, 03:00 PM
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If you read the posts to which I was responding you will note that I am referring to a completely different projector

I finally figured that out. Obviously this is all out of my league and I will just read only...
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post #498 of 858 Old 12-04-2018, 12:18 PM
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Are the technologies involved in a projector like this scalable to lower end /smaller projectors or are the features exclusive to a very large projectors due to basic physics?

Now if only Hollywood would make something worth watching...
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post #499 of 858 Old 12-04-2018, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Now if only Hollywood would make something worth watching...
Ain't that the truth !

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post #500 of 858 Old 12-04-2018, 01:36 PM
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Since this projector will be in a separate room would you guys mind doing a story time on the technical details of the piece of glass that goes in front of the projector and separates the projection room and the actual cinema?

I mean, you wouldn't want to spend six figures on what is shaping up to be one of, if not, the greatest projectors available, only to completely ruin it with a plain piece of glass in front of it. It's just something us mere mortals never have to really think about so I've never really done much research on it!
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Are the technologies involved in a projector like this scalable to lower end /smaller projectors or are the features exclusive to a very large projectors due to basic physics?
The technology involves dual light engines plus banks of laser modules so won't be featuring within lower end /smaller projectors

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Since this projector will be in a separate room would you guys mind doing a story time on the technical details of the piece of glass that goes in front of the projector and separates the projection room and the actual cinema?

I mean, you wouldn't want to spend six figures on what is shaping up to be one of, if not, the greatest projectors available, only to completely ruin it with a plain piece of glass in front of it. It's just something us mere mortals never have to really think about so I've never really done much research on it!
Personally, I always use high-end optical glass, installed at an angle, such as from EDMUND OPTICS: https://www.edmundoptics.co.uk/f/ant...12261#products

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Personally, I always use high-end optical glass, installed at an angle, such as from EDMUND OPTICS: https://www.edmundoptics.co.uk/f/ant...12261#products

WAY cheaper than I thought..... Are you in the UK?

So what are the kind of things you need to look for in this kind of application that will cause the least amount of distortion? Is it angled to reduce reflections from the surface?
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So what are the kind of things you need to look for in this kind of application that will cause the least amount of distortion?
Optical grade glass with low iron content

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Is it angled to reduce reflections from the surface?
Yes, and to prevent reflections back into the lens

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post #504 of 858 Old 12-04-2018, 05:30 PM
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WAY cheaper than I thought..... Are you in the UK?

Not for long!!!

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post #505 of 858 Old 12-04-2018, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
The technology involves dual light engines plus banks of laser modules so won't be featuring within lower end /smaller projectors


Personally, I always use high-end optical glass, installed at an angle, such as from EDMUND OPTICS: https://www.edmundoptics.co.uk/f/ant...12261#products

I am starting to really like putting on my 3D glasses (not turning on) to watch normal 2D movies as it lowers the black levels and image suddenly have more depth.

Is there an ND filter I can buy to put in front of the projector that does the same thing?
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I am starting to really like putting on my 3D glasses (not turning on) to watch normal 2D movies as it lowers the black levels and image suddenly have more depth.

Is there an ND filter I can buy to put in front of the projector that does the same thing?
I have one of these of these, and they are excellent: Formatt-Hitech Firecrest Ultra ND Filter

Again, they need to be angled in front of the lens so as to prevent light being reflected back at the lens, so ensure you take that into account when selecting the appropriate size as a larger size is required the more you angle it.

Its also worth noting that they do hold a B-stock of filters that are optically perfect (i.e. to spec) but don't precisely meet the exact ND specs. So for example, if ND 0.3 is too little (blocks 50% of light), but ND0.6 is too much (blocks 75% of light), they might have a B-stock filter that sits somewhere in between. I managed to get a B-stock one that blocked 58% of light, which was perfect for my set-up - and being B-stock they're cheaper to boot.
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Not for long!!!

Yeah, and I can't think why I would want to move to sunny Florida when I will be enjoying THIS gorgeous weather for the next 6 months or so! Lovely, isn't it?!:



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post #508 of 858 Old 12-05-2018, 04:35 AM
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I have one of these of these, and they are excellent: Formatt-Hitech Firecrest Ultra ND Filter

Again, they need to be angled in front of the lens so as to prevent light being reflected back at the lens, so ensure you take that into account when selecting the appropriate size as a larger size is required the more you angle it.

Its also worth noting that they do hold a B-stock of filters that are optically perfect (i.e. to spec) but don't precisely meet the exact ND specs. So for example, if ND 0.3 is too little (blocks 50% of light), but ND0.6 is too much (blocks 75% of light), they might have a B-stock filter that sits somewhere in between. I managed to get a B-stock one that blocked 58% of light, which was perfect for my set-up - and being B-stock they're cheaper to boot.
Thanks for the link. I'll definitely check em out... the problem is they are so expensive... and I have no idea what percentage of light to block out... buy a few would be pricey... do you think a 50% would do?

btw: How do you find with and without it on your projector?
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post #509 of 858 Old 12-05-2018, 06:23 AM
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Hoya HMC filters work very well and as they're coated have no visible effect on the image other than what's intended. I've never seen a B stock or interim value from Hoya unfortunately, and the adjustable ND filters people have tried aren't stable enough colour wise to be of any use, unless someone knows one that does work as intended?

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post #510 of 858 Old 12-05-2018, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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The only reasons I can think of to use a masking frame with this projector is for traditional clean looking lines for room esthetics and the fact that many films don't have edges that are sharp and clean and this can make them all appear more uniform overall.

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