Christie Eclipse Projector - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 687 Old 10-22-2018, 05:21 PM
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Definitely looking forward to hearing the report back on this projector. I attended a Sony presentation last week on their new Master Series sets and the gentlemen explained to me why we haven't seen Dolby Vision certified projectors. Very interesting to see what you guys make of this one, of course this thing is in an entirely different league than whatever Sony builds.

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post #32 of 687 Old 10-22-2018, 05:44 PM
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Definitely looking forward to hearing the report back on this projector. I attended a Sony presentation last week on their new Master Series sets and the gentlemen explained to me why we haven't seen Dolby Vision certified projectors. Very interesting to see what you guys make of this one, of course this thing is in an entirely different league than whatever Sony builds.
The interesting thing about this situation is that this is not simply A Dolby Vision projector... This is THE Dolby Vision projector

For the benefit of those who are not in the know, Dolby Vision and in fact HDR was developed by Dolby as the next generation evolution with respect to video to accompany the next generation evolution with respect to audio, namely Dolby Atmos, the both of which were specifically developed by Dolby for exclusive use within Dolby Cinemas. In fact, Dolby publically announced that both Dolby Atmos and Dolby Vision would never, ever feature within the consumer/home audiovisual market; they would only ever be used commercially in Dolby Cinemas. It was only after the likes of AURO 3D and DTS threw their hats in the ring with respect to the consumer/home audiovisual market regards their own iterations of next generation 'three dimensional' immersive audio formats that Dolby reconsidered and decided to join the consumer/home theater party with Dolby Atmos audio as well as Dolby Vision video.

Where what originally happened is Dolby joined forces with Christie to develop a new projector capable of delivering the Dolby Vision HDR technical specification and performance, because none existed, because they had only just invented Dolby Vision and HDR. So this is how the Christie Dolby Vision projector originated. Hence, it's ironic that as far as the home/consumer market is concerned, it is only TVs that support Dolby Vision and not one single projector, when in fact it was/is a projector, THIS projector, that was originally the one and only singular video display device created for exclusive use with respect to Dolby Vision HDR


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post #33 of 687 Old 10-22-2018, 06:28 PM
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Gotta know - what is the best price guessimate for this beast? Perhaps, not in my league, but inquiring minds...

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #34 of 687 Old 10-22-2018, 07:31 PM
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Another reason for me to get a MEGA MILLIONS ticket tomorrow.
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post #35 of 687 Old 10-23-2018, 12:34 AM
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For the benefit of those who are not in the know here's a pretty good explanation of how the Christie Dolby Vision projector achieves its crazy high contrast and black levels performance...
Interesting read. Though I already knew loosely how they worked, I wasn't aware that the 'spacial modulator' operated in 'zones' - I had always assumed that it would have the same number of micro-mirrors as the main imaging DMD (so 4K in this case) - I would have thought anything less (like 1080p) might cause haloing. Maybe they get around that by passing the light "through a single, hollow integrator to blur the seams between the individual rods in the array".

I also didn't know the 'spacial modulator' mirrors remained static throughout the frame - that makes it a lot easier to implement.

It does surprise me that this system hasn't been implemented on lower level projectors by other manufacturers. Maybe there is too much light loss for smaller lower cost projectors currently, but it would seem simple enough and not particularly costly for DLP manufacturers to add these to a light path design. Even the LCOS manufacturers could replace some of the mirrors in the individual RGB light paths with an additional chip and multiply up the contrast.
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post #36 of 687 Old 10-23-2018, 04:31 AM
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Interesting read. Though I already knew loosely how they worked, I wasn't aware that the 'spacial modulator' operated in 'zones' - I had always assumed that it would have the same number of micro-mirrors as the main imaging DMD (so 4K in this case) - I would have thought anything less (like 1080p) might cause haloing. Maybe they get around that by passing the light "through a single, hollow integrator to blur the seams between the individual rods in the array".

I also didn't know the 'spacial modulator' mirrors remained static throughout the frame - that makes it a lot easier to implement.

It does surprise me that this system hasn't been implemented on lower level projectors by other manufacturers. Maybe there is too much light loss for smaller lower cost projectors currently, but it would seem simple enough and not particularly costly for DLP manufacturers to add these to a light path design.
Firstly, the design is patented. So nobody can copy it until after the patent expires.

Secondly, there's an exclusivity agreement with Dolby by Christie with respect to sale and usage within commercial cinemas, hence exclusive to Dolby Cinemas worldwide only.

However, I realized that said exclusivity does not encompass the consumer/domestic market; which is how I got my foot in the door and met with Christie's vice president of engineering and head of product development a couple of years ago, and got the ball rolling regards opening the doors with respect to persuading Christie to consider allowing to technology to be sold into home theater/cinemas. I continued to converse with them thereafter, where it took some convincing for a variety of reasons that I can't disclose. But either way, this is not something that could have been implemented on lower level projectors by other manufacturers, even if they felt inclined to do so or were prepared to invest the necessary R&D resources

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Even the LCOS manufacturers could replace some of the mirrors in the individual RGB light paths with an additional chip and multiply up the contrast.
This has not been done historically for multiple reasons... firstly, there has existed design patents preventing that from happening as well... and secondly, doing so has had associated technical issues/challenges, the primary one being that of efficiency, in that the efficiency is 25% at best, meaning there is at least a 75% reduction in light output (and that's before you start adding BT.2020 color filters!) which is all well and good for use in planetariums where all you are projecting a low APL starfields but not for video projectors where you want to project video content that is above circa 3-5% ADL. There are projector manufacturers who have previously looked into doing precisely this, but who discounted doing so for these very reasons


Incidentally, I mentioned in another thread that there are other multiple interesting high-end projectors in the pipeline as well; and these also similarly make use of novel technology that is protected and so cannot simply be copied by others. I'm bound by NDAs with respect to those as well at the present time so can't reveal the details yet; however, I will be able to do so a little later down the line. But what I can say right now is that they also offer potentially game-changing video projection performance, including all of incredibly high contrast (both ON/OFF and ANSI), dynamic range, gamut coverage, and HDR performance, with very high light output levels. Also, some of these are something that can be applied to create entire ranges of projectors with higher performance including at all price points, so not just expensive flagships that 99% of folks cannot afford

Let's just say that modular video walls are most certainly NOT going to be bringing about the demise of video projection...

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post #37 of 687 Old 10-23-2018, 04:45 AM
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are you able to quote the RRP?
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Gotta know - what is the best price guessimate for this beast? Perhaps, not in my league, but inquiring minds...
Art and I will come back with answers to all of the pertinent questions, including pricing, ASAP following our visit to Christie on Friday. I don't want to upset the apple cart by jumping the gun. As Art has previously said, when we meet with them on Friday we will discuss with them what details we can talk about publically at the present time. Either way, this is a very high-end flagship product so expect it to be costing six figures...

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post #38 of 687 Old 10-23-2018, 02:20 PM
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Art, if you stack two of these projectors you will be equal to the Dolby Cinema with at least 3-4 times the brightness of Dolby Cinema??? COOL!
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post #39 of 687 Old 10-23-2018, 03:02 PM
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Art, if you stack two of these projectors you will be equal to the Dolby Cinema with at least 3-4 times the brightness of Dolby Cinema??? COOL!
I think Art already said he’d get 500 nits from this PJ on his screen - that’s already almost 5 times brighter than the commercial Dolby spec!
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post #40 of 687 Old 10-24-2018, 01:31 AM
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Art, if you stack two of these projectors you will be equal to the Dolby Cinema with at least 3-4 times the brightness of Dolby Cinema??? COOL!
Shall I preorder a dual stack for you then Steve?

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I think Art already said he’d get 500 nits from this PJ on his screen - that’s already almost 5 times brighter than the commercial Dolby spec!
Yup. I think that 20,000 lumens is going to be more than sufficient light output for the vast majority of home theater screen sizes. Also, the cost of stacking two of these is going to put a very serious dent in your wallet!

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Shall I preorder a dual stack for you then Steve?

Yup. I think that 20,000 lumens is going to be more than sufficient light output for the vast majority of home theater screen sizes. Also, the cost of stacking two of these is going to put a very serious dent in your wallet!

A dual stack. Think I'd have to stick to Inn 'N Out Burger for that, all I can afford!

As for the very serious dent in the wallet, I think one of these projectors will do that as well! But I can just see it now "Art's Dolby Stacked Cinema"!

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post #42 of 687 Old 10-24-2018, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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A dual stack. Think I'd have to stick to Inn 'N Out Burger for that, all I can afford!

As for the very serious dent in the wallet, I think one of these projectors will do that as well! But I can just see it now "Art's Dolby Stacked Cinema"!

Steve I know you are probably joking but since it's difficult to tell at times, this is a projector that has laser modules in a rack that feed the light into the head. We are going to see a set up with about 20,000 lumens on a 16' wide screen. I requested that size screen since I felt that for such a projector it was unlikely the buyers would use anything smaller than that. In fact, I requested it be at least that large. The projector demo is not near the maximum capability for it, which is closer to 60,000 lumens.

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post #43 of 687 Old 10-24-2018, 11:10 AM
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Steve I know you are probably joking but since it's difficult to tell at times, this is a projector that has laser modules in a rack that feed the light into the head. We are going to see a set up with about 20,000 lumens on a 16' wide screen. I requested that size screen since I felt that for such a projector it was unlikely the buyers would use anything smaller than that. In fact, I requested it be at least that large. The projector demo is not near the maximum capability for it, which is closer to 60,000 lumens.

Art
Art, half jest, half real. After all, you have stacked Electrohome projectors and now Sony VW5000 laser projectors.

One of the first 13 Dolby Cinemas is a few miles from me and yea very nice (for a commercial movie theater), especially after awhile when they turned off/dimmed the lights (including red exit light) during the movie! Very impressive and if I go to a movie makes it impossible to go to one of the other AMC multiplex theaters with only a "normal" projector! Since the Dolby Cinema uses two projectors, heck, I figured you (Art) may at least consider it, that would be 40,000 lumens, enough to blind anyone watching! Seriously, it will be interesting to find out your demo impressions!

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A dual stack. Think I'd have to stick to Inn 'N Out Burger for that, all I can afford!

As for the very serious dent in the wallet, I think one of these projectors will do that as well! But I can just see it now "Art's Dolby Stacked Cinema"!
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Steve I know you are probably joking but since it's difficult to tell at times, this is a projector that has laser modules in a rack that feed the light into the head. We are going to see a set up with about 20,000 lumens on a 16' wide screen. I requested that size screen since I felt that for such a projector it was unlikely the buyers would use anything smaller than that. In fact, I requested it be at least that large. The projector demo is not near the maximum capability for it, which is closer to 60,000 lumens.

Art
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Art, half jest, half real. After all, you have stacked Electrohome projectors and now Sony VW5000 laser projectors.

One of the first 13 Dolby Cinemas is a few miles from me and yea very nice (for a commercial movie theater), especially after awhile when they turned off/dimmed the lights (including red exit light) during the movie! Very impressive and if I go to a movie makes it impossible to go to one of the other AMC multiplex theaters with only a "normal" projector! Since the Dolby Cinema uses two projectors, heck, I figured you (Art) may at least consider it, that would be 40,000 lumens, enough to blind anyone watching! Seriously, it will be interesting to find out your demo impressions!
Just to add to what Art says here, and to clarify... The default configuration that features within Dolby Cinemas comprises dual stacked projectors each rated at 30,000 lumens yielding a combined total of 60,000 lumens.

It is my understanding that the 'non-cinema' version comprises a modified version of one of these projectors, which would be by default rated at 30,000 lumens. However, it is worth bearing in mind that this figure probably relates to the peak luminance in the centre of the image, not the average overall image luminance.

The light source is a laser module rack filled with banks of laser diodes. You simply turn these on or off according to how much light output you want; and Christie can also simply add more modules/diodes and thereby increase the light output accordingly, where Christie offers higher light output than 30,000 lumens with singular projectors.

Either way, there is more than sufficient light output with one singular projector for home theaters usage and I can't see anyone needing or wanting to stack two together. That would be overkill

And case in point with respect to what Art says about screen sizes, my current home theater/cinema build into which I am considering installing this projector has a screen size that is 19' 1" wide. Where Art is right that you really don't want to be using this with screen sizes smaller than 16'


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post #45 of 687 Old 10-24-2018, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Just to add to what Art says here, and to clarify... The default configuration that features within Dolby Cinemas comprises dual stacked projectors each rated at 30,000 lumens yielding a combined total of 60,000 lumens.

It is my understanding that the 'non-cinema' version comprises a modified version of one of these projectors, which would be by default rated at 30,000 lumens. However, it is worth bearing in mind that this figure probably relates to the peak luminance in the centre of the image, not the average overall image luminance.

The light source is a laser module rack filled with banks of laser diodes. You simply turn these on or off according to how much light output you want; and Christie can also simply add more modules/diodes and thereby increase the light output accordingly, where Christie offers higher light output than 30,000 lumens with singular projectors.

Either way, there is more than sufficient light output with one singular projector for home theaters usage and I can't see anyone needing or wanting to stack two together. That would be overkill

And case in point with respect to what Art says about screen sizes, if I choose to proceed with installing this projector into my current home theater/cinema build, I would increase the screen size to 19' wide. Where Art is right that you really don't want to be using this with screen sizes smaller than 16'


Thanks for the clarification !

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post #46 of 687 Old 10-24-2018, 06:45 PM
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What is the suggested SPF sunblock to use if watching a 60,000 lumens pj nude?
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What is the suggested SPF sunblock to use if watching a 60,000 lumens pj nude?

Depends on the gain of the screen!
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post #48 of 687 Old 10-25-2018, 02:27 AM
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What should also be exciting for Art, is that if this PJ delivers its quoted 1,000,000:1 native on/off contrast ratio - while it delivers that astonishing 500nits (I believe about double that of your current dual 5000ES stack Art?) peak brightness, it should also deliver a black floor that is around 1/25th that of your 5000ES stack.

I would assume that the ANSI contrast is off the chart too?

It should deliver a truly stunning image.

One quick question though - if the laser light source is off in another box in a rack somewhere (presumably connected by fibre optics?) - why does the head unit need to be so damn big? You would have thought they could condense this down to something similar to a standard domestic projector?
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post #49 of 687 Old 10-25-2018, 02:31 AM
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Actually, whilst I think about it - when you meet with Christie, please do point out to them that if they made a small unit around the size of the new JVC's and Sony's, with say, 4000 lumens laser and a good lens for say, $25-$35k, they could probably mop up the entire global projector market from that price point upwards!
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post #50 of 687 Old 10-25-2018, 02:39 AM
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Albeit a dream scenario in terms of brightness and contrast, RGB laser speckle might still be an issue? Especially if the screen fabric being used is not sufficiently matte... Looking forward to reading your impressions!
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post #51 of 687 Old 10-25-2018, 02:49 AM
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Albeit a dream scenario in terms of brightness and contrast, RGB laser speckle might still be an issue? Especially if the screen fabric being used is not sufficiently matte... Looking forward to reading your impressions!
What is it that causes the 'speckle' on these RGB laser systems?
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post #52 of 687 Old 10-25-2018, 03:31 AM
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What is it that causes the 'speckle' on these RGB laser systems?
In "short"; "Speckle arises due to the quasi-random interference that is generated because the coherent laser beam is scattered from a projection screen that is rough on the scale of the optical wavelength. As the speckle pattern in a laser projector is usually the sum of multiple, independent speckle patterns each of which is created by a large number of independent scattering elements, the intensity of the speckle pattern typically obeys Gaussian statistics (see8, and supplementary data 1). The amount of speckle is usually quantified by the speckle contrast value C = sigma/mean, where the numerator is the standard deviation of the intensity fluctuations and the denominator is the mean intensity." Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep14105.

Blue laser going through phosphor does not speckle to any significant degree, but green and red pure laser tends to speckle more, while blue lasers, probably due to the lower light intensity, seems to speckle less... Still, as per Wolfgangs Thor 6P (RGB x2) laser projector, he has been able to reduce the amount of speckle to a minimum using a very matte type of screen, so it seems to be workable in some cases, but probably depending on the amount. If the light output is even greater on this Christie unit, and the screen smaller, speckle might be more prominent...
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post #53 of 687 Old 10-25-2018, 03:36 AM
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What is it that causes the 'speckle' on these RGB laser systems?
Speckle manifests due to interference resulting from the narrow wavelength nature of laser
light sources due to scatter that occurs when the lasers hit and reflect off the screen material surface

EDIT: I see Jon beat me to it! And with a fully comprehensive response too! Nice one Jon!

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Albeit a dream scenario in terms of brightness and contrast, RGB laser speckle might still be an issue? Especially if the screen fabric being used is not sufficiently matte... Looking forward to reading your impressions!
There will absolutely 100% be laser speckle with this projector. However, this is entirely a non-issue as there exists solutions that are very effective and inexpensive that eliminate this

It also helps if you use a screen material that is resistant to laser speckle such that it is reduced a bit, such as an excellent screen material called DreamScreen Ultraweave V6. Are you familiar with this material Jon because it really is superb?


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post #55 of 687 Old 10-25-2018, 03:49 AM
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Actually, whilst I think about it - when you meet with Christie, please do point out to them that if they made a small unit around the size of the new JVC's and Sony's, with say, 4000 lumens laser and a good lens for say, $25-$35k, they could probably mop up the entire global projector market from that price point upwards!


the Barco Balder CinemaScope (which I have) has 4000 lumens and is in that price range.


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post #56 of 687 Old 10-25-2018, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Actually, whilst I think about it - when you meet with Christie, please do point out to them that if they made a small unit around the size of the new JVC's and Sony's, with say, 4000 lumens laser and a good lens for say, $25-$35k, they could probably mop up the entire global projector market from that price point upwards!
Will do

BUT very unlikely to happen. Christies primary target demographics are commercial and professional industries. So the only projectors able to be installed in home theatres will be tweaked versions of those and a 4000 lumens projector is square peg round hole with respect to those markets.

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post #57 of 687 Old 10-25-2018, 03:59 AM
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post #58 of 687 Old 10-25-2018, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by gwthacker View Post
the Barco Balder CinemaScope (which I have) has 4000 lumens and is in that price range.
I mean no disrespect, but thats a TI wobulation/faux-4K XPR chip with, what, circa 2000:1 native? It wouldn't even be in the same league as a projector that could use this 'spacial modulator' to produce 1,000,000:1 on/off with a 4K native device.
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post #59 of 687 Old 10-25-2018, 04:06 AM
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It is DLP so ANSI should be high. I will be measuring it along with a load of other stuff

But I mean aside from that, the 'spacial modulator' it should be able to almost completely block light on the black squares in terms of reflection off the DMD - all that should be left to pollute the ANSI pattern will be lens and light path reflections.
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post #60 of 687 Old 10-25-2018, 04:22 AM
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@ARROW-AV , is this the mystery processor you have been hinting at for a while? Or is that still another one?

For the Chistie/Dolby projector, do you know how many "local dimming zones" there will be?

To be honest, I think I would have preferred an LCD or LCoS display to do the dimming, because that would probably have allowed much more dimming zones than this approach will.
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