Christie Eclipse Projector - Page 39 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1141 of 1175 Old 02-09-2020, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I should add that if you want to see / experience the Christie Eclipse's video performance I have organized a demo of the projector which is happening on Saturday 7th March at Christie Digital in Cypress California..

Will the price of this unit and release date finally be revealed at the demo and the NDA lifted or is that info still covered by your NDA?
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post #1142 of 1175 Old 02-13-2020, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
No doubt 7' wide is a big flat panel but you are right after getting the 16' -18' bug it wouldn't fill the bill ,ask any size queen.

Art
I saw the 98" ViewSonic, does anybody know the prize for the 98" Samsung shown at ISE? It looked nicer with its quantum dots and seemingly better processing.
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post #1143 of 1175 Old 02-13-2020, 11:25 AM
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Why it will not be sold for commercial cinemas ? It would absolutely destroy whatever other cinemas offer , honestly lately most cinemas are very dissapointing with their picture quality , its like they dont care anymore.
This all dates back to the original agreement between Christie and Dolby that saw them develop the Dolby Vision Projection System together. Dolby had exclusive dibs on commercial cinema exhibition. So the platform does not support dci server.
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post #1144 of 1175 Old 02-13-2020, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Alan Gouger has bypassed the demo process and has proceeded straight to buying one

In fact, Alan will be receiving the very first unit being sold into the residential market
.
What you moved back in the picking order, LOL.

As for Peter read what he posted on Alan's DCI-Forum regarding the subject.
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post #1145 of 1175 Old 02-19-2020, 09:13 PM
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Would this be good room for the Christie?

This is slightly tongue in cheek, as it is in one of the penthouse's of the building that your buddy Cineramax used to talk about.
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post #1146 of 1175 Old 02-20-2020, 02:34 PM
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Christie has some fine elbow lenses;-). What is that big room outside the door with the expanse of glass, it would make for a nice room with view WallScreenSkylounge, with a Sony C-LED.
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post #1147 of 1175 Old 02-20-2020, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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You guys are funny I think your posts belong in the Wall Thread though.

Art
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post #1148 of 1175 Old 02-20-2020, 04:58 PM
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Well if the lens can stick through the wall I am sure it would be a great fit for the Eclipse. Assuming it is one of the classier appartments it has a second story, so the lasers go in the upstairs closet.
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post #1149 of 1175 Old 02-20-2020, 06:29 PM
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Christie has some fine elbow lenses;-). What is that big room outside the door with the expanse of glass, it would make for a nice room with view WallScreenSkylounge, with a Sony C-LED.
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Well if the lens can stick through the wall I am sure it would be a great fit for the Eclipse. Assuming it is one of the classier appartments it has a second story, so the lasers go in the upstairs closet.
It is Zaha Hadid's 1000 Museum. It seems like I am down there every other week or more. That room was in one of the penthouses. One of the master bedroom closets is right behind the couch. The Christie would easily fit in there. I am sure Arrow's brain is already spinning.

The big room outside is I guess a living room. It is about 18 feet and 50 feet long. Just outside of that is the balcony, which overlooks the water. I think it goes for about $20 million.
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post #1150 of 1175 Old 02-20-2020, 06:30 PM
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You guys are funny I think your posts belong in the Wall Thread though.

Art
I think that room could have been a small theater. The living room off of the kitchen would be a good place for a Wall.
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post #1151 of 1175 Old 02-22-2020, 02:34 PM
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Question about the Demo:

Will there be an opportunity to do an A/B comparison of the video performance with and without the Envy in the chain? Given the most recent Envy is not something the majority of viewers would have any previous experience with, it would seem it could muddy the waters so to speak with regard to the Eclipse’s performance on a standalone basis.

Just a thought.
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post #1152 of 1175 Old 02-23-2020, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by freakyguy666 View Post
Question about the Demo:

Will there be an opportunity to do an A/B comparison of the video performance with and without the Envy in the chain? Given the most recent Envy is not something the majority of viewers would have any previous experience with, it would seem it could muddy the waters so to speak with regard to the Eclipse’s performance on a standalone basis.

Just a thought.
Even though I doubt I will ever be buying one of these, I too wondered the same thing.
Surely with such prodigious contrast at its disposal, DTM is largely an irrelevance.... Isn't it?

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post #1153 of 1175 Old 02-23-2020, 09:56 AM
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Even though I doubt I will ever be buying one of these, I too wondered the same thing.
Surely with such prodigious contrast at its disposal, DTM is largely an irrelevance.... Isn't it?
No it isn't.

Static tone mapping as per will be experienced if/when playing back HDR10 content as vanilla will not yield optimum playback performance irrespective of the display, because it applies one singular fixed setting for the entire movie/video content.

Consider this... Is tone-mapping irrelevant with respect to an OLED TV? No it most certainly is not. Wherein, many HDR10 titles will look too dark if/when played back as is.

For the same reason I would never demo a SONY projector playing back HDR10 content as vanilla either. It would look awful.

That said, please note that the madVR Envy is not just doing DTM either. It is all about providing the best quality playback of source content.

Hence, the madVR Envy will be used to optimally play back consumer HDR video content via the Eclipse, especially given it does not have a built-in DTM solution.
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Question about the Demo:

Will there be an opportunity to do an A/B comparison of the video performance with and without the Envy in the chain? Given the most recent Envy is not something the majority of viewers would have any previous experience with, it would seem it could muddy the waters so to speak with regard to the Eclipse’s performance on a standalone basis.

Just a thought.
Not really

What will muddy the waters is getting into comparing video sources and quality of source content. After all 'rubbish in = rubbish out'.

I can turn on and off the Envy but what will be showing is what is the effect of HDR10 played back as vanilla versus the video content played back optimally (via the Envy).

This would be akin to playing back an ultra-high-end audio system both with and without the room EQ disabled. Why would you want to do that?
.

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post #1154 of 1175 Old 02-23-2020, 10:02 AM
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To confirm and demonstrate the value of the Envy.
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post #1155 of 1175 Old 02-23-2020, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
No it isn't.

Static tone mapping as per will be experienced if/when playing back HDR10 content as vanilla will not yield optimum playback performance irrespective of the display, because it applies one singular fixed setting for the entire movie/video content.

Consider this... Is tone-mapping irrelevant with respect to an OLED TV? No it most certainly is not. Wherein, many HDR10 titles will look too dark if/when played back as is.

The madVR Envy will be used to optimally play back consumer HDR video content via the Eclipse, given it does not have a built-in DTM solution.

For the same reason I would never demo a SONY projector playing back HDR10 content as vanilla either. It would look awful.

Not really

What will muddy the waters is getting into comparing video sources and quality of source content. After all 'rubbish in = rubbish out'.

I can turn on and off the Envy but all that will be showing is what is the effect of HDR10 played back as vanilla without decent tone-mapping versus the video content played back optimally.

This would be akin to playing back an ultra-high-end audio system both with and without the room EQ disabled. Why would you want to do that?
.
Sorry I was more referring to when you demo non-HDR 2K content as it was my understanding that the new envy’s capabilities were enormously valuable in improving non-HDR 2K content. Apologies if I misunderstood.
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post #1156 of 1175 Old 02-23-2020, 10:14 AM
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To confirm and demonstrate the value of the Envy.
I can quite happily turn on and off the Envy, which will indeed confirm and demonstrate that it is invaluable with respect to achieving the best possible quality playback of consumer HDR10 video content

It's going be an invaluable addition to all high-end A/V systems to be honest.
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post #1157 of 1175 Old 02-23-2020, 10:23 AM
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No it isn't.

Static tone mapping as per will be experienced if/when playing back HDR10 content as vanilla will not yield optimum playback performance irrespective of the display, because it applies one singular fixed setting for the entire movie/video content.

Consider this... Is tone-mapping irrelevant with respect to an OLED TV? No it most certainly is not. Wherein, many HDR10 titles will look too dark if/when played back as is.

For the same reason I would never demo a SONY projector playing back HDR10 content as vanilla either. It would look awful.

That said, please note that the madVR Envy is not just doing DTM either. It is all about providing the best quality playback of source content.

Hence, the madVR Envy will be used to optimally play back consumer HDR video content via the Eclipse, especially given it does not have a built-in DTM solution.
Can not Christie just add their own DTM to the Eclipse? You would think it woukd be perfectly doable considering the cost of the Projector...!?! ?
JVC have really stepped up with theirs.
What the hell is everyone else doing?

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post #1158 of 1175 Old 02-23-2020, 01:53 PM
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Sorry I was more referring to when you demo non-HDR 2K content as it was my understanding that the new envy’s capabilities were enormously valuable in improving non-HDR 2K content. Apologies if I misunderstood.
Ah right, OK then.

Let me be the one to apologise as I am clearly the one to have misunderstood

In which case yes of course I will be more than happy to show some examples of content both with and without the madVR Envy.

And yes you are absolutely right that it does indeed substantially improve the performance of HD SDR content

That said, when I last evaluated the Christie Eclipse I played back HD SDR content using an OPPO Blu-Ray Player, having the OPPO upscale the content to 4K UHD. This looked absolutely incredible in itself. So I can't wait to see what this looks like with the Envy improving the image

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Can not Christie just add their own DTM to the Eclipse? You would think it woukd be perfectly doable considering the cost of the Projector...!?! ?
JVC have really stepped up with theirs.
What the hell is everyone else doing?
You are forgetting that the Christie Eclipse is not a Home Theater projector
.
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post #1159 of 1175 Old 02-23-2020, 02:09 PM
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Can not Christie just add their own DTM to the Eclipse? You would think it woukd be perfectly doable considering the cost of the Projector...!?! ?
JVC have really stepped up with theirs.
What the hell is everyone else doing?
I would say that this allows for easy(er) upgradeability when a better one is available. That's one of the nice things about "components", you can largely just swap pieces in and out as needed/wanted and to scale the overall "system" your liking.
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post #1160 of 1175 Old 02-23-2020, 04:15 PM
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You are forgetting that the Christie Eclipse is not a Home Theater projector
.
Why does it not being a 'home theatre projector' preclude it from built in DTM?
One would assume as the system is modular they could make their own DTM box....

Is it something they are likely to do?
Maybe they feel there is enough out there already at a mere fraction of the cost of their system that it isn't worth their while to develop it.

Just curious.

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post #1161 of 1175 Old 02-23-2020, 04:19 PM
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I would say that this allows for easy(er) upgradeability when a better one is available. That's one of the nice things about "components", you can largely just swap pieces in and out as needed/wanted and to scale the overall "system" your liking.
I completely get that, being a Hi-Fi separates man since the early nineties, but as with anything to do with fidelity, having too many connections in a chain can make for too many variables to adjust and more breaks in the signal.

To me the best place to have an effective DTM solution is in the display itself. That also has the benefit it will work on whatever is connected to it.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
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post #1162 of 1175 Old 02-23-2020, 04:45 PM
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What will the Envy add to the video quality of the Eclipse for 4K content , beyond DTM ?



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post #1163 of 1175 Old 02-23-2020, 05:57 PM
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I completely get that, being a Hi-Fi separates man since the early nineties, but as with anything to do with fidelity, having too many connections in a chain can make for too many variables to adjust and more breaks in the signal.

To me the best place to have an effective DTM solution is in the display itself. That also has the benefit it will work on whatever is connected to it.
I generally subscribe to that philosophy, as well, and is the main reason I use the Netflix app that is built into the OLED in the bedroom and projector in the den, instead of through the Apple TV/Apple TV 4K, even though the Apple version is easier to use.
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post #1164 of 1175 Old 02-23-2020, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
You are forgetting that the Christie Eclipse is not a Home Theater projector [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
.
Why does it not being a 'home theatre projector' preclude it from built in DTM?
One would assume as the system is modular they could make their own DTM box....

Is it something they are likely to do?
Maybe they feel there is enough out there already at a mere fraction of the cost of their system that it isn't worth their while to develop it.

Just curious. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
It’s same logic for Madvr or Lumagen , since they have mastered DTM, why don’t they make their own display and have one box solution .
No reason and moreover unprofitable to re invent the wheel . It’s the way things will be going forward , more and more specialized companies going forward .
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post #1165 of 1175 Old 02-24-2020, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Why does it not being a 'home theatre projector' preclude it from built in DTM?
One would assume as the system is modular they could make their own DTM box....

Is it something they are likely to do?
Maybe they feel there is enough out there already at a mere fraction of the cost of their system that it isn't worth their while to develop it.

Just curious.
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I completely get that, being a Hi-Fi separates man since the early nineties, but as with anything to do with fidelity, having too many connections in a chain can make for too many variables to adjust and more breaks in the signal.

To me the best place to have an effective DTM solution is in the display itself. That also has the benefit it will work on whatever is connected to it.
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It’s same logic for Madvr or Lumagen , since they have mastered DTM, why don’t they make their own display and have one box solution .
No reason and moreover unprofitable to re invent the wheel . It’s the way things will be going forward , more and more specialized companies going forward .
You were referring to JVC and other home theater projectors incorporating DTM as part of querying why Christie have not done so with respect to the Eclipse. Those are Home Theater projectors, the Eclipse is not. As such your comparison is comparing apples vs oranges.

Furthermore, it is important to note there that with the madVR Envy what you have is essentially a very highly-specced powerful PC computer that is exclusively dedicated to carrying out the video processing. Wherein Christie would need to add the same along with the equivalent to all of madVR's unique and superior software and algorithms to achieve even close to the same thing. Wherein, one of the main reasons why JVCs DTM is not as good as madVR's is due to the massive difference in processing and GPU power involved. The other is that @madshi has been developing, evolving, and improving his madVR algorithms for years

Hence, DTM isn't something simple and easy to add of precisely the same performance quality. The DTM in the JVCs pales in comparison to madVR's. madVR's DTM is the best in the world as of right now. So personally IMO it would be a waste of resources Christie attempting to reinvent the wheel and add their own DTM. Because even if they did I wouldn't use it unless it was as good as madVR; wherein, do you clearly do not realize nor appreciate just how many years of R&D and beta testing and more R&D and more beta testing and more R&D has gone into developing madVR. Furthermore, madVR is not solely DTM, it is fully comprehensive video processing which provides not only the best DTM currently available but also the best upscaling in the world as well, as well as an array of AI video processing, including bright highlights recovery and shadow detail recovery, as well as simple 3d LUT calibration etc. etc.

In short, madVR have invested years of R&D to develop the ultimate video processor. It does not make sense for Christie to attempt to attempt to reinvent the wheel and develop their own version, which indubitably would not be as good. That said, what would make sense and would be superb would be for them to license the technology from madVR and incorporate the madVR video processing into the Eclipse. But until that happens I will be using and recommending that any and all other people who purchase an Eclipse uses a madVR Envy to carry out the video processing.

It's different with the likes of the JVC Home Theater projectors because the cost of a madVR Envy could be as much as the cost of the projector, so it is good to have a DTM solution built-in for free. However, personally I will be using a madVR Envy with the JVC projectors as well, because not only is the DTM significantly better but also for the array of other video processing that the Envy provides that is above and beyond that which is provided by the JVCs. Same goes for all other projector brands as of right now.

.
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post #1166 of 1175 Old 02-24-2020, 01:28 AM
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What will the Envy add to the video quality of the Eclipse for 4K content , beyond DTM ?
Numerous additional video processing features the combination of which contribute towards yielding optimum video image quality performance, including 3D LUT calibration, as well as completely awesome AI video processing such as madVR's bright highlight recovery and shadow detail recovery, as well as explosions optimization, to name but a few. These really are a sight to behold. When these were demoed the other week at ISE 2020 in Amsterdam literally everyone who saw this was utterly blown away... To save repeating myself, here's what I said about this over in the madVR Envy thread:

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I have to admit that I was somewhat dubious regarding how effective the claimed artificial intelligence bright highlight and shadow detail recovery and optimisation would actuall be in reality. Furthermore, when I heard that the maximum setting is labelled 'Insane' I took this to be hyperbole... but it's not. Seriously, it really IS completely INSANE! I don't know how @madshi has done it but I am convinced that voodoo is involved!

One particular video clip in this regard was as shocking as being hit in the face with a baseball bat. It was a shot of clouds in the sky on a bright day, wherein with the vanilla a lot of the image is blown out to white, and seriously we are talking about 1/4 of the screen here; and yet the MadVR Envy fixed the image 100% to perfection. There were literally gasps from everyone in the room, myself included.
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post #1167 of 1175 Old 02-24-2020, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
You were referring to JVC and other home theater projectors incorporating DTM as part of querying why Christie have not done so with respect to the Eclipse. Those are Home Theater projectors, the Eclipse is not. As such your comparison is comparing apples vs oranges.

Furthermore, it is important to note there that with the madVR Envy what you have is essentially a very highly-specced powerful PC computer that is exclusively dedicated to carrying out the video processing. Wherein Christie would need to add the same along with the equivalent to all of madVR's unique and superior software and algorithms to achieve even close to the same thing. Wherein, one of the main reasons why JVCs DTM is not as good as madVR's is due to the massive difference in processing and GPU power involved. The other is that @madshi has been developing, evolving, and improving his madVR algorithms for years

Hence, DTM isn't something simple and easy to add of precisely the same performance quality. The DTM in the JVCs pales in comparison to madVR's. madVR's DTM is the best in the world as of right now. So personally IMO it would be a waste of resources Christie attempting to reinvent the wheel and add their own DTM. Because even if they did I wouldn't use it unless it was as good as madVR; wherein, do you clearly do not realize nor appreciate just how many years of R&D and beta testing and more R&D and more beta testing and more R&D has gone into developing madVR. Furthermore, madVR is not solely DTM, it is fully comprehensive video processing which provides not only the best DTM currently available but also the best upscaling in the world as well, as well as an array of AI video processing, including bright highlights recovery and shadow detail recovery, as well as simple 3d LUT calibration etc. etc.

In short, madVR have invested years of R&D to develop the ultimate video processor. It does not make sense for Christie to attempt to attempt to reinvent the wheel and develop their own version, which indubitably would not be as good. That said, what would make sense and would be superb would be for them to license the technology from madVR and incorporate the madVR video processing into the Eclipse. But until that happens I will be using and recommending that any and all other people who purchase an Eclipse uses a madVR Envy to carry out the video processing.

It's different with the likes of the JVC Home Theater projectors because the cost of a madVR Envy could be as much as the cost of the projector, so it is good to have a DTM solution built-in for free. However, personally I will be using a madVR Envy with the JVC projectors as well, because not only is the DTM significantly better but also for the array of other video processing that the Envy provides that is above and beyond that which is provided by the JVCs. Same goes for all other projector brands as of right now.

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Well Christie could repeat the Spyder story...
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post #1168 of 1175 Old 02-24-2020, 06:45 AM
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Probably another apples and oranges comparison, but if this unit has all the light you need, then it would seem something like an Envy is just improving the end result. This is different then most projectors that don’t have enough light output to properly display 4K HDR and therefore we use DTM to manage to the projector’s limits. SJ
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post #1169 of 1175 Old 02-24-2020, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Probably another apples and oranges comparison, but if this unit has all the light you need, then it would seem something like an Envy is just improving the end result. This is different then most projectors that don’t have enough light output to properly display 4K HDR and therefore we use DTM to manage to the projector’s limits. SJ
This won't have enough light for all HDR content though, just like a flat panel or a OLED still need tone mapping for anything that exceeds their true peak output. So no matter what, unless you have (currently) a 4,000 nit display, you need tone mapping at some point.

I don't know if the Eclipse would need a LUT though, most high end DLP projectors have programs that allow for insanely accurate calibrations that would probably not benefit from a LUT. A LUT is used to offer a higher level of color precision, but it should not be used just because it is there. Processing is always processing and if it is not needed, it should be avoided. I've seen a lot of people think they need a LUT simply because it is a buzzword, but it is not always the case. I've seen some LUTs that actually cause more problems than they solved.
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post #1170 of 1175 Old 02-24-2020, 04:53 PM
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This projector has 26,000 ANSI lumens max. Probably make our eyes explode...
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