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Art Sonneborn 10-20-2018 08:55 AM

Christie Eclipse Projector
 
I'm going to see a demonstration of the new Christie/Dolby large venue RGB laser projector on Friday. My understanding is it will be on a 16' wide screen and should be able to do about 500 nits on a unity gain screen. I have a list of things I'd like to see to compare it to what I have now but I was wondering if anyone might recommend some scenes or chapters to look at on UHD BD or BD.


Art

Ash Sharma 10-20-2018 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 56988918)
I'm going to see a demonstration of the new Christie/Dolby large venue RGB laser projector on Friday. My understanding is it will be on a 16' wide screen and should be able to do about 500 nits on a unity gain screen. I have a list of things I'd like to see to compare it to what I have now but I was wondering if anyone might recommend some scenes or chapters to look at on UHD BD or BD.


Art

Art - Kindly inquire:
1. Dimensions - schematic would be best.
2. Location of Lens - center or not not.
3. Noise
4. Cooling method
5. Throw required for 14 foot screen
6. I am guessing this will do Dolby Vision?

Thanks in advance.

Lygren 10-20-2018 09:43 AM

Looking forward to reading your feedback on this one for sure!! Hoping for true DV contrast!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Art Sonneborn 10-20-2018 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Sharma (Post 56989002)
Art - Kindly inquire:
1. Dimensions - schematic would be best.
2. Location of Lens - center or not not.
3. Noise
4. Cooling method
5. Throw required for 14 foot screen
6. I am guessing this will do Dolby Vision?

Thanks in advance.


I can answer a few things now center of lens is offset and 8.67" from the top of the projector. It is Dolby Vision, both the head and the laser module rack require separate cooling. No chiller unit required however. Some NDA stuff I can give more after I see it and ask what I can talk about.

Ash Sharma 10-20-2018 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 56989106)
I can answer a few things now center of lens is offset and 8.67" from the top of the projector. It is Dolby Vision, both the head and the laser module rack require separate cooling. No chiller unit required however. Some NDA stuff I can give more after I see it and ask what I can talk about.

Thanks - looks like it will be beast to install...

Art Sonneborn 10-20-2018 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Sharma (Post 56989202)
Thanks - looks like it will be beast to install...


Yes ,this is not going to be something for the casual home theater situation. It is large about ,30" tall and wide and 40" long not including the laser module rack.


Art

biliam1982 10-20-2018 02:28 PM

@Art Sonneborn


This is different than Christie's current flagship, the CP4325 RGB Pure Laser Cinema Projector, right?


If so, can you tell us anything about lumens? From the other threads I've seen you post about this, it should be ~21k lumens (500/3.43) * (16'*9'), right? Or is this with a double stack, so half that?



And what about contrast? Are they're using a 4th chip for contrast enhancement?




Art Sonneborn 10-20-2018 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biliam1982 (Post 56990116)
@Art Sonneborn


This is different than Christie's current flagship, the CP4325 RGB Pure Laser Cinema Projector, right?


If so, can you tell us anything about lumens? From the other threads I've seen you post about this, it should be ~21k lumens (500/3.43) * (16'*9'), right? Or is this with a double stack, so half that?



And what about contrast? Are they're using a 4th chip for contrast enhancement?




I can't say now about the contrast, but it is supposed to have much much higher contrast and yes the version I'm going to see looks like about 22,000 lumens. It appears to be a Dolby Cinema equivalent but optimized for home use.


I'm going as an end user but I signed an NDA for some of it. I will ask about what I'm permitted to discuss on Friday.


Nigel will be there and he intends to do measurements while mine will be a subjective appraisal only ,although I'll report any numbers I get while there.

thebland 10-20-2018 03:03 PM

You're the man to be there for the subjective analysis. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

LJG 10-20-2018 04:43 PM

Hi Art:

Can't wait to hear your thoughts wish I could be there with you guys...

Steve Bruzonsky 10-20-2018 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebland (Post 56990242)
You're the man to be there for the subjective analysis. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

One for your new theater???

thebland 10-20-2018 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky (Post 56990710)
One for your new theater???

Ha! I wish. We downsized our house but the smaller house is costing us far more than our old house (and it’s almost 1/2 the size)! The theater budget is getting squeezed! I’ll have to give to Art’s if he decides this the projector to rule them all!

Ash Sharma 10-20-2018 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebland (Post 56990786)
Ha! I wish. We downsized our house but the smaller house is costing us far more than our old house (and it’s almost 1/2 the size)! The theater budget is getting squeezed! I’ll have to give to Art’s if he decides this the projector to rule them all!

Wall TV or Bust...all I can say for my future upgrade in Video..

Art Sonneborn 10-21-2018 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Sharma (Post 56991528)
Wall TV or Bust...all I can say for my future upgrade in Video..


Ash,
I hear you it's just there are still a few things which make this an upgrade and at the same time has several advantages over the wall solutions. I'm sure you have thought about those as I have.


Peter had wanted to go but he was sandwiched between other events. Sad part was he was at the Toronto Audiofest this week but Christie said the demo wasn't ready yet.


Art

Steve Bruzonsky 10-21-2018 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebland (Post 56990786)
Ha! I wish. We downsized our house but the smaller house is costing us far more than our old house (and it’s almost 1/2 the size)! The theater budget is getting squeezed! I’ll have to give to Art’s if he decides this the projector to rule them all!

Yea, I could downsize to a smaller house, but afraid that by the time I got done, I wouldn't save much, or spend more, and take a lotta time out of my mostly retired life!!!!

Art Sonneborn 10-21-2018 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJG (Post 56990598)
Hi Art:

Can't wait to hear your thoughts wish I could be there with you guys...


Yea, I think it would be good if you could attend.


Art

LJG 10-21-2018 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 56993736)
Yea, I think it would be good if you could attend.


Art

I would love to but I’m a captive to my buildout, we are finishing up wiring, electric, sheet rocking this week impossible for me to go to Canada,I’m lucky to get to work for a couple hours a day.....I’m also a BMW 5 series over budget....

Wookii 10-22-2018 07:14 AM

Interested to hear more about this Art - are you able to quote the RRP?

Edit: I appreciate it will be one of those "if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it" products, but I'm still interested to know the current price entry point for Christies dual chip tech.

ARROW-AV 10-22-2018 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 56988918)
I'm going to see a demonstration of the new Christie/Dolby large venue RGB laser projector on Friday. My understanding is it will be on a 16' wide screen and should be able to do about 500 nits on a unity gain screen. I have a list of things I'd like to see to compare it to what I have now but I was wondering if anyone might recommend some scenes or chapters to look at on UHD BD or BD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 56989106)
I can answer a few things now center of lens is offset and 8.67" from the top of the projector. It is Dolby Vision, both the head and the laser module rack require separate cooling. No chiller unit required however. Some NDA stuff I can give more after I see it and ask what I can talk about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by biliam1982 (Post 56990116)
This is different than Christie's current flagship, the CP4325 RGB Pure Laser Cinema Projector, right?

If so, can you tell us anything about lumens? From the other threads I've seen you post about this, it should be ~21k lumens (500/3.43) * (16'*9'), right? Or is this with a double stack, so half that?

And what about contrast? Are they're using a 4th chip for contrast enhancement?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 56990220)
I can't say now about the contrast, but it is supposed to have much much higher contrast and yes the version I'm going to see looks like about 22,000 lumens. It appears to be a Dolby Cinema equivalent but optimized for home use.

I'm going as an end user but I signed an NDA for some of it. I will ask about what I'm permitted to discuss on Friday.

Nigel will be there and he intends to do measurements while mine will be a subjective appraisal only ,although I'll report any numbers I get while there.

Not sure whether we were supposed to be discussing the details regarding this publically just yet, but since the cat's now out of the bag... :)

In short, this is a 'non-cinema' version of Christie's infamous Dolby Vision projector that features within Dolby Cinemas.

This is something that stemmed out of meetings and ongoing communications that I had with Christie at and subsequently following CinemaCon 2017; and Art has been in communication with them for several months now.

This is not the Christie CP4325-RGB. Nor is it the new D4K40-RGB pure laser projector, which as it happens will be being demoed to us as well.

Christie is targetting with both of these new projectors large venues, sports facilities, domes, giant screens, planetariums and theme park attractions.

A huge thank you to Art for helping to persuade Christie to allow these to be supplied and installed into home theaters/cinemas.

I am going to be taking measurements and will be doing some scientific analysis. I will be sure to post my findings on here :)

:wink:

Ericglo 10-22-2018 10:29 AM

I am sure it will be a fun event, but brrrrrrrr it looks chilly. I am glad I am in warm Florida.:);)

bobof 10-22-2018 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Sharma (Post 56989002)
6. I am guessing this will do Dolby Vision?

The answer to that one would be interesting. There still isn't any DV for projection for home, and I'm not sure how/if the DV tech used in cinemas could translate at all to being used in the home from HDMI sources.

Art Sonneborn 10-22-2018 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericglo (Post 56997022)
I am sure it will be a fun event, but brrrrrrrr it looks chilly. I am glad I am in warm Florida.:);)

I think it will be inside.;)

Art

Mark Seaton 10-22-2018 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebland (Post 56990786)
Ha! I wish. We downsized our house but the smaller house is costing us far more than our old house (and it’s almost 1/2 the size)! The theater budget is getting squeezed! I’ll have to give to Art’s if he decides this the projector to rule them all!

If he does go for it at least it gives you a good line on a possible deal for a 2nd hand 5000ES you wouldn't even have to ship! ;)

ARROW-AV 10-22-2018 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Seaton (Post 56997792)
If he does go for it at least it gives you a good line on a possible deal for a 2nd hand 5000ES you wouldn't even have to ship! ;)

Or TWO 2nd hand 5000ES... ;)

...because Art doesn't have just one SONY 5000ES, but super-cool dual-stacked SONY 5000ES projectors :cool:

:smile:

ARROW-AV 10-22-2018 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericglo (Post 56997022)
I am sure it will be a fun event, but brrrrrrrr it looks chilly. I am glad I am in warm Florida.:);)

Hey that suits me fine Eric! It's bloody freezing here in England right now too; so at least I only have to pack cold weather clothing ;) :)

Not like when I visited sunny Florida a few weeks ago where I had to miraculously cram both hot and cold weather clothing into a carry-on bag, along with all my measuring and analysis equipment! :eek:

:wink:

Ericglo 10-22-2018 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARROW-AV (Post 56998788)
Hey that suits me fine Eric! It's bloody freezing here in England right now too; so at least I only have to pack cold weather clothing ;) :)

Not like when I visited sunny Florida a few weeks ago where I had to miraculously cram both hot and cold weather clothing into a carry-on bag, along with all my measuring and analysis equipment! :eek:

:wink:

If you lived here, then you could wear shorts year round.:eek:

ARROW-AV 10-22-2018 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Sharma (Post 56989002)
Art - Kindly inquire:
1. Dimensions - schematic would be best.
2. Location of Lens - center or not not.
3. Noise
4. Cooling method
5. Throw required for 14 foot screen
6. I am guessing this will do Dolby Vision?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 56989106)
I can answer a few things now center of lens is offset and 8.67" from the top of the projector. It is Dolby Vision, both the head and the laser module rack require separate cooling. No chiller unit required however. Some NDA stuff I can give more after I see it and ask what I can talk about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 56989382)
Yes ,this is not going to be something for the casual home theater situation. It is large about ,30" tall and wide and 40" long not including the laser module rack. Art

Just to add to what Art says here, aside from being big and bulky with multiple sizeable parts, and requiring cooling, this is going to be very noisy :)

In short, this will not be suitable for an in-room type installation. What will be required is to install the projector within its own enclosed separate environment 'outside of the room'.

The simplest way of achieving this if retrofitting into an existing home theater would be to install a false wall at the rear of the theater across the full width of the room with an entry door, thereby creating a plant room / corridor 'behind' the home theater into which the projector would then be installed, with the projector projecting via a hole in the false wall that would ideally be sealed using an optical pane of glass installed at an angle so as to prevent reflections back into the projector lens. Or if building the room from scratch then the build layout can be designed accordingly. This plant room / corridor can then be cooled via an appropriate domestic climate control system separate from the home theater.

As it happens, this is exactly the situation with respect to a current home theater/cinema build of mine that is circa 6 months away from completion, with respect to which I am considering installing this projector:

https://photos.smugmug.com/AVSFORUM-...OOR%20PLAN.jpg

:wink:

ARROW-AV 10-22-2018 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ericglo (Post 56999082)
If you lived here, then you could wear shorts year round.:eek:

Wear shorts year round you say? Right, that's it! I'm moving to Florida! :D

:wink:

swarm87 10-22-2018 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 56988918)
I'm going to see a demonstration of the new Christie/Dolby large venue RGB laser projector on Friday. My understanding is it will be on a 16' wide screen and should be able to do about 500 nits on a unity gain screen. I have a list of things I'd like to see to compare it to what I have now but I was wondering if anyone might recommend some scenes or chapters to look at on UHD BD or BD.


Art

king kong 2005 chapter 26 -- the "sacrifice" part might have some good HDR with the fire

ARROW-AV 10-22-2018 06:07 PM

For the benefit of those who are not in the know here's a pretty good explanation of how the Christie Dolby Vision projector achieves its crazy high contrast and black levels performance... In short, it's akin to Full Array Local Dimming (FALD) but with respect to projectors, where there are many multiple independantly controlled dimming zones... The nice thing about Patent Applications is that they reveal the ingredients of the secret sauce! ;) :D:

Quote:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/image...5618f1ba17.jpg

A high dynamic-range projector from Christie and Dolby promises something special in commercial cinemas, but how does it work?

Last December, I posted an item about Dolby's announcement that 2015 would see the inauguration of Dolby Cinema, a bold plan to take commercial cinema to the next level with Dolby Atmos immersive sound and Dolby Vision high dynamic-range (HDR) laser-illuminated projectors co-developed with Christie. One of the first public showings of this projection technology was presented last week at CinemaCon, the convention of the National Association of Theatre Owners.

Ever since I first heard about these HDR cinema projectors, I've been very curious about how they manage to achieve high dynamic range. I've asked several people from Christie and Dolby to explain it, but they have all declined. Fortunately, AVS member CinemaAndy pointed me to the patent application submitted by Christie for an HDR projection system, which must be the basis of Dolby Vision in commercial cinemas. And since that information is in the public domain, I can share it with the AVS community.

The patent application starts with a description of current digital-projector technology, which is illustrated in the following diagram:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/image...bf6fe44817.jpg
A conventional digital projector sends white light from a lamp (1) through a lens (2), which reflects from a mirror (7), travels through a transparent integrator rod (5), reflects from another mirror (7), passes through more lenses (6), reflects from another mirror (7), passes through yet more lenses (6), and ends up in the imaging engine (8), where it is split into red, green, and blue components. Each component illuminates a corresponding spatial modulator or "imager" that forms the image for that color in an array of pixels, after which the red, green, and blue light is recombined and projected through the main lens (9) to the screen. The imagers can be DLP DMDs (Digital Micromirror Devices), LCD panels, or LCoS panels. And the white-light lamp can be replaced with red, green, and blue lasers that illuminate the corresponding imagers directly or a hybrid design with blue lasers and a yellow phosphor wheel whose light is split into red and green.

According to the patent application, the dynamic range of a digital projection system is determined by the capabilities of the imager. In the case of 4K DMDs, the application claims the dynamic range is roughly 12 bits at 24 frames per second, and less at higher rates.

The architecture of the proposed HDR projector is much the same, with two critical differences—another spatial modulator and an added array of integrator rods:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/image...bf6fe53829.jpg
In the proposed HDR architecture, the mirror in the upper left of the previous diagram is replaced with another spatial modulator (15) that is divided into an arbitrary number of zones. Each zone is controlled to send more or less light through an array of integrator rods (16), depending on the brightness of the final image in each zone. In the case of an RGB laser-illuminated projector, each laser would have its own integrator rod (5), zonal modulator (15), and array of integrator rods (16) as well as its own imaging modulator that creates the final image for that color.

For those who might not be familiar with an optical integrator rod, it's a transparent rod whose surface is internally reflective—that is, when light enters one end, it is reflected multiple times by the internal surface of the rod. This "homogenizes" the light, converting round or irregular patterns of illumination into a uniform, rectangular pattern. The cross-sectional shape of the integrator rod is typically the same aspect ratio as that of the imagers.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/image...bf6fe8b183.jpg
In this conceptual example, the zonal modulator (15) is divided into only four zones (20a-d); in practice, there would be many more zones. In the case of a DMD, the micromirrors in each zone are oriented in a pattern that reflects more or less light, depending on the brightness of that part of the final image. Virtually no light is reflected when all the mirrors in a zone are in their "off" position, while the maximum amount of light is reflected when all mirrors are in their "on" position (20b), and half that amount of light is reflected when the mirrors are in a checkerboard pattern (20d). A complete grayscale is generated by orienting the mirrors so more or less light is reflected from a given zone; for example, zone 20a in this diagram reflects less than half the maximum amount of light, and zone 20c reflects more than half the maximum light.

Interestingly, the mirrors in each zone are held statically in their positions during each entire frame of the video. Why not create a grayscale by alternating all the micromirrors in each zone between on and off many times per frame as an imaging DMD does, varying the percentage of time they spend in the on and off positions (a technique called pulse-width modulation)? Because it is exceedingly difficult to control the PWM frequency so that it's exactly identical for the zonal and imaging modulators, and any difference can result in visible artifacts. Instead, the mirrors in each zone are oriented in a spatial dithering pattern that reflects the desired amount of light as uniformly as possible.

Even so, the light from each zone must be highly uniform, so it is sent through another optical integrator rod. In fact, each zone has its own integrator rod and these rods are arranged in an array that corresponds to the array of zones.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/image...bf6fe98b91.jpg
In this diagram from the patent application, light from a laser (1) enters the first integration rod (5) and hits the zonal modulator (15), which reflects the light into an array of integrator rods (16; each rod is labeled 18 in this diagram). The light from the integrator-rod array passes through a single, hollow integrator (19) to blur the seams between the individual rods in the array. The light then hits the imaging modulator (13) at a non-right angle, causing keystone distortion, which can be compensated for with well-known optical techniques and/or image-processing algorithms.

This approach seems very similar to full-array LED backlighting with local dimming in LCD flat-panel TVs, in which the LEDs behind the LCD panel are divided into a number of zones that are dimmed and brightened according to the overall brightness of the image in each zone. This works well to increase the apparent contrast of the image, but it's not without problems of its own, such as halos around very small bright objects on a dark background within a single zone. Obviously, the more zones there are, the less haloing there will be, so I hope the Christie/Dolby Vision projectors have lots of zones.

The patent application does not specify the number of zones, nor does it specify exactly how much the dynamic range is increased over that of conventional digital-cinema projectors, other than to day say it's increased by several orders of magnitude. The basic technology achieves this by lowering the overall black level—which is annoyingly high in most commercial cinemas—and possibly increasing the peak brightness by cranking up the lasers.
:wink:


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