Christie Large Venue Demonstration - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
Yes Arrow great write up, thanks Art and Ken to take the time to evaluate this awesome and incredible, projector. It's really a shame that Christie launched and then closed a residential consumer division in 2016. I am really hopeful that Christie can license or partner with a residential consumer projector manufacturer to migrate this technology.
And prior to that the M(ercury) series entry into HT, it failed to deliver the 10K:1 on-off, showing unacceptible artifacts, so it was re-directed to commercial application only, that did not require the higher dynamic on-off contrast.

One has Peter, Art, Nigel and probably a few others to thank for not letting Christie completely forget the residential market, over the years.
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post #242 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 10:17 AM
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The Christie goes up in price up to four times if one wants to go 8K as with the Larger Wall. These arguments can be made in both directions.
Firstly, aside from the fact that image resolution is 4th or 5th down the list of importance with respect to what most influences good video image quality, native 8K resolution is about as beneficial as curved TV screens, and as such is kinda irrelevant to this discussion.

Secondly, the Christie in fact goes up in price 2.8 times, not 4 times, and for 6 times the increase in light output.

And thirdly, like I already said, if you want a 19' - 21' sized screen a Samsung The Wall this size costs $1 - 1.4 MILLION !!! Wherein, you would have the heat output into your room equivalent multiple 2 KW heaters operating 24-7 (circa 56,000 BTU per hour); plus the need for specialist audio system design to deal with the fact you have a highly reflective non-acoustically transparent giant panel on your front wall; AND I have yet to see a modular MicroLED video wall wherein you can't see the seams and/or the screen surface texture... and this is just to name a few issues! Oh and did I mention that a Samsung The Wall this size costs $1 - 1.4 MILLION !!! And by the way, SONY's Crystal LED is very considerably more expensive than this !!!

And finally, would you care to guess, after several months since commencement of taking orders how many units of The Wall Luxury have so far sold into the United States, UK, and/or Europe? Or let me put it this way, do you know of anyone who has actually purchased one?

So I reiterate why on earth would anyone consider purchasing a Samsung The Wall, when you can have one of these?

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post #243 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 10:40 AM
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Needs to be a balance.

A few easily removable cosmetic skins would do wonders for it's looks.....and residential appeal.
Only way anyone is going to see this is if you give them a tour of the equipment room, because this projector has to go in a separate equipment room.
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post #244 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 10:45 AM
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I believe Peter had a deal for the Wall commercial, that was changed to a Luxury. He announced a second one, I am sure there will be a few others that have ordered a few. But the number will probaby be quite low, the product not being available yet, might hold people off, signing.

I am sure this Christie will also be a cause for reflection.

Speaking of refections, how does it stand upto those, Samsung does target rooms with a view with both the Onyx and the Wall. There was a person here a few weeks ago that decided for a Leyard over one or even two Christies, due to a combination of placement and ambient light conditions, requiring more than a single Christie.

So, for dedicated theaters, this Christie for sure, for some other applications a (micro-)LED wall may still be the right choice.

I know Lang was one of the first to buy into the Commercial Wall, like it is always one of the first to buy into new display tech.

I read elsewhere that Sony claims to have 30 CLEDIS displays deployed, included onto yachts. Perhaps Neil can shime in as I received an email saying he/his partners will be with Steinway Lyngdorf at the Marine Equipment show. On ships vibration control might be an issue as with all projectors, and steer towards a Wall (how many tons of concrete did they pour as a base for the DVPS in Eindhoven?). Sony also claims to have been able to drop the CLEDIS (or whatever it is called today), by a large percentage (did I read 40%?). Still way to expensive for commercial cinema though.

The Samsung Cinema-LED/ONYX is 29/30 rooms.

Since the product is not there yet, we can not judge yet if Samsung's guarantee regarding seams/edge effects is warranted. But I have seens so many poor examples at times when vendors should be doing everything to sell their wares over the years to be equally sceptical.

This is all niche compared to the millions of square meters of SMD LED wall production capacity. Heck even 1.25 and finer pitch is miniscule market share, sofar.

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post #245 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Seam visibility at close range, reflective surface both audio and visually, room design must be around the device for audio so a 20' wide room couldn't accommodate a 16'-17' screen due to need to surround the screen with speakers to compensate for the inability of placing so much behind the screen, heat dissipation within the room. Of course ,most if not all of these can be compensated for in room design but in a retrofit situation such as simply upgrading the projection ,as is my desire, it would require either a significantly smaller screen or a completely new and much larger shell (read rebuild my home).

Since I don't have MSRP myself with the Christie yet, it is tough to know but if a 12' wide screen wall approaches 500,000 USD I wonder what a 17' wide would be.


I see these as big advantages for this technology as we speak... who knows what the landscape will look like in few years.

Art
Not only could you see the seams, but you could see the dimple in the middle of each and every little panel on the Sony, when showing black. Also the screen had a slick or wet look to it, when showing black. Not the same a a projected image. It does do a lot of things right.
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post #246 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 11:06 AM
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I believe Peter had a deal for the Wall commercial, that was changed to a Luxury. He announced a second one, I am sure there will be a few others that have ordered a few. But the number will probaby be quite low, the product not being available yet, might hold people off, signing.

I am sure this Christie will also be a cause for reflection.

Speaking of refections, how does it stand upto those, Samsung does target rooms with a view with both the Onyx and the Wall. There was a person here a few weeks ago that decided for a Leyard over one or even two Christies, due to a combination of placement and ambient light conditions, requiring more than a single Christie.

So, for dedicated theaters, this Christie for sure, for some other applications a (micro-)LED wall may still be the right choice.

I know Lang was one of the first to buy into the Commercial Wall, like it is always one of the first to buy into new display tech.

I read elsewhere that Sony claims to have 30 CLEDIS displays deployed, included onto yachts. Perhaps Neil can shime in as I received an email saying he/his partners will be with Steinway Lyngdorf at the Marine Equipment show. On ships vibration control might be an issue as with all projectors, and steer towards a Wall (how many tons of concrete did they pour as a base for the DVPS in Eindhoven?). Sony also claims to have been able to drop the CLEDIS (or whatever it is called today), by a large percentage (did I read 40%?). Still way to expensive for commercial cinema though.

The Samsung Cinema-LED/ONYX is 29/30 rooms.

Since the product is not there yet, we can not judge yet if Samsung's guarantee regarding seams/edge effects is warranted. But I have seens so many poor examples at times when vendors should be doing everything to sell their wares over the years to be equally sceptical.

This is all niche compared to the millions of square meters of SMD LED wall production capacity. Heck even 1.25 and finer pitch is miniscule market share, sofar.
Lots of claims... the reality is very different

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post #247 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 11:09 AM
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The epoxy surrounding the SMD and COB(Micro-)LEDs has this effect. Some implementations result in less dark backgrounds, painting the epoxy black afterwards is not the answer, as it is not even either, I learned at ISE 2018. One can see the individual panels' edges that make up the module. I have seen this on SMD/RGB LED as well, not jut the CLEDIS. Unit variation on the demo systems has been clear.

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post #248 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Not only could you see the seams, but you could see the dimple in the middle of each and every little panel on the Sony, when showing black. Also the screen had a slick or wet look to it, when showing black. Not the same a a projected image. It does do a lot of things right.

Yes , and as I said to Ash even before I saw the demo this does have it's place as well for several reasons. I personally would much prefer to use the room I have and all that I've invested in it and the fantastic audio I have now.


Art
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post #249 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 11:34 AM
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ahh, the joy of living vicariously. thank you gentlemen.
It is all I do.

Nigel is this due to using the non-frequency-doubling green lasers, or due to not using those?

"- Both the RED and BLUE are beyond BT.2020; with the GREEN falling slightly short."
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post #250 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 11:52 AM
 
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...I guess proof is in the puddin´ - some 30 mill:1 on / off contrast and 30k lumens in combination with that footprint does not come about as inefficient in my book compared to other laser based systems that is... As for FALD zones, I believe Arrow or Art stated 2 million, and no blooming whatsoever?

There are always room for improvement and I have to agree that the patent is not really impressive as such, it´s really quite basic, but if you know patents these are the ones that has value if proven production worthy (which the 30 mill:1 + 30k lumens ++ does). Similarly as that very basic LG (originally Kodak) OLED dual blue patent - which basically gave them control of the entire industry. Most patents, however, are made by scientist and/or patent trolls that has no intention of using it for manufacture but rather sell it off to some patent harvester or use it to block new tech from happening. Companies taking on patents in order to actually create new inventions such as Christie here, however, have my outmost respect and admiration, I know (firsthand...) how hard that is to actually do....
I'd love to see this projector in person, I'm sure it looks great, but even if I were a millionaire I'd have a problem entertaining such an inefficient machine, costing so much, because I'm an engineer and such things bug me.

I wonder why LCoS isn't used in commercial cinemas, can they not handle the heat / lumens? RGB laser light seems like a perfect combination with light modulators which rely on a given incoming polarization angle like LCoS or LCD. That way they wouldn't suffer the 50% lumen penalty right off the bat like they do with randomly polarized lamp light or Blue + Yellow phosphor sources. Seems like a missed opportunity. Then they wouldn't even need a dual set of light modulators / attenuators. 20M:1 isn't that much better than 1M:1 contrast which isn't *that* much better than a 5000$ JVC, so it's diminishing returns. Especially considering that 99% of the world's commercial cinemas have 2000:1 DLPs in them and most people are perfectly fine with them. Plus the exit and floor lights in the cinemas ruin the black level. I seriously doubt anywhere near 20M:1 will be seen.

Dual light modulation only makes sense for DLP's pathetic native contrast. To me, a much better use of dual modulators and the optical complexity increase, is using one in phase modulation mode to redistribute luminous energy in the scene to where it's needed, so you aren't throwing away 95% of your electricity bill down the toilet. This is like that patent that Christie also owns, that they bought from that Canadian company back in 2016. But even that design is quite "weak" compared to what else is possible.

Still, having 2M zones for 8M pixels will result in a blooming zone of 2x2 pixels which it probably way smaller than the human visual system can cope with, so that's far better than FALD on TVs and comparable to a Brightside monitor using a 1080p grayscale filter in the back panel for the first stage modulation, then the filters and to a 4K front panel. That would surely be fine. A blurred or lower resolution back modulator would result in less optical alignment issues.

That's the problem with this tech. It'll be obsolete by the time Christie (or was it Barco?) implements the dual LCoS HDR projector, which will require 1/10th the laser power to deliver the same peak nits, or, conversely, 10x higher peak nits (in smaller windows) with the same laser power backing it.

And as someone said, nobody needs 400 nits white field in a blacked-out cinema. So those nits are only for highlights and those highlights are still well below what they would be on a projector which didn't mask 95% of its light so that the other 5% can get very bright. Phased modulation mode is 10x more efficient and could allow 4k peak nits in smaller windows, while also lowering the black floor where it's not required. That'd actually work great for DLP too, where you only really notice the poor black level in dark scenes or dark areas of scenes. So redistributing light 10:1 would boost DLP contrast by 10x.

Fundamentally though, transmissive projection is a ridiculously inefficient technology for HDR. Even with FALD, TVs have to implement hundreds of zones and then most of those LEDs are only used to some fraction of their potential at any given time, like a Lamborghini only ever being used for grocery runs through school zones.

So their potential max lumens aren't being spent where they actually count, in places where you could have PQ codes reaching 10k nits. The physics of specular highlights makes a mockery out of all these display technologies, which are fundamentally wasteful. Either you're wasting lumens, or lumens potential. The Lcos phase modulation trick is neat but will also probably have some growing pains and probably some blooming, who knows.

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post #251 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd love to see this projector in person, I'm sure it looks great, but even if I were a millionaire I'd have a problem entertaining such an inefficient machine, costing so much, because I'm an engineer and such things bug me.

I wonder why LCoS isn't used in commercial cinemas, can they not handle the heat / lumens? RGB laser light seems like a perfect combination with light modulators which rely on a given incoming polarization angle like LCoS or LCD. That way they wouldn't suffer the 50% lumen penalty right off the bat like they do with randomly polarized lamp light or Blue + Yellow phosphor sources. Seems like a missed opportunity. Then they wouldn't even need a dual set of light modulators / attenuators. 20M:1 isn't that much better than 1M:1 contrast which isn't *that* much better than a 5000$ JVC, so it's diminishing returns. Especially considering that 99% of the world's commercial cinemas have 2000:1 DLPs in them and most people are perfectly fine with them. Plus the exit and floor lights in the cinemas ruin the black level. I seriously doubt anywhere near 20M:1 will be seen.

Dual light modulation only makes sense for DLP's pathetic native contrast. To me, a much better use of dual modulators and the optical complexity increase, is using one in phase modulation mode to redistribute luminous energy in the scene to where it's needed, so you aren't throwing away 95% of your electricity bill down the toilet. This is like that patent that Christie also owns, that they bought from that Canadian company back in 2016. But even that design is quite "weak" compared to what else is possible.

Still, having 2M zones for 8M pixels will result in a blooming zone of 2x2 pixels which it probably way smaller than the human visual system can cope with, so that's far better than FALD on TVs and comparable to a Brightside monitor using a 1080p grayscale filter in the back panel for the first stage modulation, then the filters and to a 4K front panel. That would surely be fine. A blurred or lower resolution back modulator would result in less optical alignment issues.

That's the problem with this tech. It'll be obsolete by the time Christie (or was it Barco?) implements the dual LCoS HDR projector, which will require 1/10th the laser power to deliver the same peak nits, or, conversely, 10x higher peak nits (in smaller windows) with the same laser power backing it.

And as someone said, nobody needs 400 nits white field in a blacked-out cinema. So those nits are only for highlights and those highlights are still well below what they would be on a projector which didn't mask 95% of its light so that the other 5% can get very bright. Phased modulation mode is 10x more efficient and could allow 4k peak nits in smaller windows, while also lowering the black floor where it's not required. That'd actually work great for DLP too, where you only really notice the poor black level in dark scenes or dark areas of scenes. So redistributing light 10:1 would boost DLP contrast by 10x.

Fundamentally though, transmissive projection is a ridiculously inefficient technology for HDR. Even with FALD, TVs have to implement hundreds of zones and then most of those LEDs are only used to some fraction of their potential at any given time, like a Lamborghini only ever being used for grocery runs through school zones.

So their potential max lumens aren't being spent where they actually count, in places where you could have PQ codes reaching 10k nits. The physics of specular highlights makes a mockery out of all these display technologies, which are fundamentally wasteful. Either you're wasting lumens, or lumens potential. The Lcos phase modulation trick is neat but will also probably have some growing pains and probably some blooming, who knows.
Oh ,and by the way, the technology works and is doing something... simultaneous high ANSI contrast, high MTF and incredibly high sequential contrast that no one else has done using any technology wasteful or not.

I'm at a loss understanding what appears to be an almost hatred like stance for folks who have taken what they have and have rights to use to implement something that any videophile would look at displayed and get an instant hard-on for.

Art
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post #252 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 12:51 PM
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Oh ,and by the way, the technology works and is doing something... simultaneous high ANSI contrast, high MTF and incredibly high sequential contrast that no one else has done using any technology wasteful or not.

I'm at a loss understanding what appears to be an almost hatred like stance for folks who have taken what they have and have rights to use to implement something that any videophile would look at displayed and get an instant hard-on for.

Art
Looking forward to you getting this. Would love to see one someday. Maybe it will be shown at CEDIA in the next year or so.
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post #253 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 01:23 PM
 
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Oh ,and by the way, the technology works and is doing something... simultaneous high ANSI contrast, high MTF and incredibly high sequential contrast that no one else has done using any technology wasteful or not.

I'm at a loss understanding what appears to be an almost hatred like stance for folks who have taken what they have and have rights to use to implement something that any videophile would look at displayed and get an instant hard-on for.

Art
Your post is rather patronizing.

I don't "hate" anyone, not at Christie or anywhere else, I'm not just a drooling fanboy and I analyze things in a sober fashion. There's a difference. The fact that they reached high specs through incredibly inefficient methods, with an overly complex design, by building a machine costing hundreds of thousands of dollars which few people can afford and that only reaches 4% efficiency is not worth some kind of Nobel Prize. I'm sorry, but it just isn't.

I'm sure it looks great in person, like a large OLED, but it should, costing this much. However within a year or two something ten times better will come across that costs a quarter of the price and then I'll come back to this thread and say, I told you so. Imagine spending a half a million dollars on something whose value depreciates so quickly. I can't. Even if I were a billionaire I wouldn't do such a thing.

I've seen patents which could build a 10k nits capable Dolby Vision projector for a fraction of the price of this projector. If you're throwing away 96% of your electricity bill to project black then you're doing something wrong. Sorry that's just my opinion.

There are several interesting posts in this thread on subject of metamerism and speckle which I find insightful. Implementing FALD in a projector is kind of, "duh". As is stacking hundreds of lasers, which were invented by Einstein over a century ago. Light sums linearly. None of this is new.

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post #254 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 01:42 PM
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Your post is rather patronizing.

I don't "hate" anyone, not at Christie or anywhere else, I'm not just a drooling fanboy and I analyze things in a sober fashion. There's a difference. The fact that they reached high specs through incredibly inefficient methods, with an overly complex design, by building a machine costing hundreds of thousands of dollars which few people can afford and that only reaches 4% efficiency is not worth some kind of Nobel Prize. I'm sorry, but it just isn't.

I'm sure it looks great in person, like a large OLED, but it should, costing this much. However within a year or two something ten times better will come across that costs a quarter of the price and then I'll come back to this thread and say, I told you so. Imagine spending a half a million dollars on something whose value depreciates so quickly. I can't. Even if I were a billionaire I wouldn't do such a thing.

I've seen patents which could build a 10k nits capable Dolby Vision projector for a fraction of the price of this projector. If you're throwing away 96% of your electricity bill to project black then you're doing something wrong. Sorry that's just my opinion.

There are several interesting posts in this thread on subject of metamerism and speckle which I find insightful. Implementing FALD in a projector is kind of, "duh". As is stacking hundreds of lasers, which were invented by Einstein over a century ago. Light sums linearly. None of this is new.
Sorry are you talking about cars, boats, houses, beach vacations...??? One mans "Waste" of money is another mans pleasure. The great thing about it is you get to do whatever you want to do and the rest of us get to spend the money the way we want to. I don't think anyone is saying you have to buy this.

For my wife and I our, Expensive car, boat vacation is in our theater that we get a lot more pleasure out of then spending 70K on a stupid car. But others may want to buy a Bugatti and God bless them and have fun.

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post #255 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 01:49 PM
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Oh ,and by the way, the technology works and is doing something... simultaneous high ANSI contrast, high MTF and incredibly high sequential contrast that no one else has done using any technology wasteful or not.

I'm at a loss understanding what appears to be an almost hatred like stance for folks who have taken what they have and have rights to use to implement something that any videophile would look at displayed and get an instant hard-on for.

Art
Hey Art, It's not like us "Drooling Fanboys" can really offer an opinion on this projector, given we have not actually personally seen its video performance, have we? Oh wait... We have...

But I am sure these other folks pooh-poohing the projector must also have seen it right? I mean surely they aren't making all sorts of statements and opinions regarding something they've never actually seen? Oh wait... They are...

Well they do have a point in that none of us bothered to carry out any kind of scientific analysis or objective measurements did we? Oh wait... We did didn't we?

Well, just ignore the party poopers, because what we have here is clearly simply a case of:



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@BattleAxeVR , LCoS is used in commercial cinema, though Sony has a minor market share. Why are you refering to transmissive projection, DLP is reflective, unlike LCD/LCoS.

Interesting those patents, could you tell us more? Dolby did tests using a Big Cinema projector projecting onto a tiny piece of ground glass, just to get those 10000 nits.

Would be great to see those new technologies come along, but considering how long it took this one to come to market, at least four years, and by the looks of it still half a year till delivery, it may not be as soon.

If you pay $500 for (day and date) DCP, the premium for this is not that high. If you already own a private jet, the depreciation of these electronics don't scare you anymore.

Actually JVC was the original demonstrator of two stage projection almost a decade ago, this of course was D-ILA=LCoS. Details were scarce, and I don't remember seeing any results though.
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Your post is rather patronizing.

I don't "hate" anyone, not at Christie or anywhere else, I'm not just a drooling fanboy and I analyze things in a sober fashion. There's a difference. The fact that they reached high specs through incredibly inefficient methods, with an overly complex design, by building a machine costing hundreds of thousands of dollars which few people can afford and that only reaches 4% efficiency is not worth some kind of Nobel Prize. I'm sorry, but it just isn't.

I'm sure it looks great in person, like a large OLED, but it should, costing this much. However within a year or two something ten times better will come across that costs a quarter of the price and then I'll come back to this thread and say, I told you so. Imagine spending a half a million dollars on something whose value depreciates so quickly. I can't. Even if I were a billionaire I wouldn't do such a thing.

I've seen patents which could build a 10k nits capable Dolby Vision projector for a fraction of the price of this projector. If you're throwing away 96% of your electricity bill to project black then you're doing something wrong. Sorry that's just my opinion.

There are several interesting posts in this thread on subject of metamerism and speckle which I find insightful. Implementing FALD in a projector is kind of, "duh". As is stacking hundreds of lasers, which were invented by Einstein over a century ago. Light sums linearly. None of this is new.
Well, interesting you changed your comment on my post from being "silly" to "patronizing" just a second ago. I've been into projection video in one form or another for over forty years I'm no fan boy this is a product that can produce an image better than anything out there. I have to respect these guys for getting something to market with what they have since no one else has and perhaps never will.

I understand that you have a distaste for inefficiency but I've been waiting for something like this to be implemented for over 20 years so your comments seem misplaced since they seem like something you should email to Christie engineers rather than comments to an end user.


The electric bill comments seem like telling me don't I know my Lamborghini isn't fuel efficient.


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post #259 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 02:03 PM
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even if I were a millionaire I'd have a problem entertaining such an inefficient machine, costing so much, because I'm an engineer and such things bug me.

I wonder why LCoS isn't used in commercial cinemas, can they not handle the heat / lumens? RGB laser light seems like a perfect combination with light modulators which rely on a given incoming polarization angle like LCoS or LCD. That way they wouldn't suffer the 50% lumen penalty right off the bat like they do with randomly polarized lamp light or Blue + Yellow phosphor sources. Seems like a missed opportunity. Then they wouldn't even need a dual set of light modulators / attenuators. 20M:1 isn't that much better than 1M:1 contrast which isn't *that* much better than a 5000$ JVC, so it's diminishing returns. Especially considering that 99% of the world's commercial cinemas have 2000:1 DLPs in them and most people are perfectly fine with them. Plus the exit and floor lights in the cinemas ruin the black level. I seriously doubt anywhere near 20M:1 will be seen.

Dual light modulation only makes sense for DLP's pathetic native contrast. To me, a much better use of dual modulators and the optical complexity increase, is using one in phase modulation mode to redistribute luminous energy in the scene to where it's needed, so you aren't throwing away 95% of your electricity bill down the toilet. This is like that patent that Christie also owns, that they bought from that Canadian company back in 2016. But even that design is quite "weak" compared to what else is possible.

Still, having 2M zones for 8M pixels will result in a blooming zone of 2x2 pixels which it probably way smaller than the human visual system can cope with, so that's far better than FALD on TVs and comparable to a Brightside monitor using a 1080p grayscale filter in the back panel for the first stage modulation, then the filters and to a 4K front panel. That would surely be fine. A blurred or lower resolution back modulator would result in less optical alignment issues.

That's the problem with this tech. It'll be obsolete by the time Christie (or was it Barco?) implements the dual LCoS HDR projector, which will require 1/10th the laser power to deliver the same peak nits, or, conversely, 10x higher peak nits (in smaller windows) with the same laser power backing it.

And as someone said, nobody needs 400 nits white field in a blacked-out cinema. So those nits are only for highlights and those highlights are still well below what they would be on a projector which didn't mask 95% of its light so that the other 5% can get very bright. Phased modulation mode is 10x more efficient and could allow 4k peak nits in smaller windows, while also lowering the black floor where it's not required. That'd actually work great for DLP too, where you only really notice the poor black level in dark scenes or dark areas of scenes. So redistributing light 10:1 would boost DLP contrast by 10x.

Fundamentally though, transmissive projection is a ridiculously inefficient technology for HDR. Even with FALD, TVs have to implement hundreds of zones and then most of those LEDs are only used to some fraction of their potential at any given time, like a Lamborghini only ever being used for grocery runs through school zones.

So their potential max lumens aren't being spent where they actually count, in places where you could have PQ codes reaching 10k nits. The physics of specular highlights makes a mockery out of all these display technologies, which are fundamentally wasteful. Either you're wasting lumens, or lumens potential. The Lcos phase modulation trick is neat but will also probably have some growing pains and probably some blooming, who knows.
Since according to you there is so much wrong with this Christie projector and you know better, when is your projector that delivers at least equal video performance as this one going to be available for demonstration? Because I would love to come and see it and take measurements. I would clearly prefer your projector, especially given this Christie projector has all of these problems


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I love Lambos (especially the 76' Countach), but I've read their road handling sucks, so yeah, I'd rather have a modern car with their shell but not their handling.

If I were rich enough to consider spending 500k on a projector, I'd probably also be able to consider buying a micro-LED wall and adding more panels as they get cheaper.

All I'm saying is, as good as the specs here are, they aren't achieved in a particularly elegant or cost-effective way. What interests me most about it isn't the contrast, it's the RGB lasers which will trickle down to consumer price levels within a couple years. Unless front projection dies by then, thanks to Micro-LED or wallpaper OLED TVs, which are already being built.
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post #261 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 02:09 PM
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Well, interesting you changed your comment on my post from being "silly" to "patronizing" just a second ago. I've been into projection video in one form or another for over forty years I'm no fan boy this is a product that can produce an image better than anything out there. I have to respect these guys for getting something to market with what they have since no one else has and perhaps never will.

I understand that you have a distaste for inefficiency but I've been waiting for something like this to be implemented for over 20 years so your comments seem misplaced since they seem like something you should email to Christie engineers rather than comments to an end user.


The electric bill comments seem like telling me don't I know my Lamborghini isn't fuel efficient.


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WHAT???? Lamborghinis are not fuel efficient? When did this happen? I am SHOCKED. SHOCKED I tell you!

Seriously, though, until we have a super efficient projector that produces 21 MILLION: 1 ON/OFF contrast performance, concomitantly with 1,035:1 ANSI, at 30,000 lumens light output and over 92% of the BT.2020 color gamut, I guess we 'Drooling Patronising Fanboys' will just have to make do with this Christie projector, even though it has all of these problems, eh?

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Since according to you there is so much wrong with this Christie projector and you know better, when is your projector that delivers at least equal video performance as this one going to be available for demonstration? Because I would love to come and see it and take measurements. I would clearly prefer your prejector, especially given this Christie projector has all of these problems

RGB lasers and lumens provided are not Christie inventions, as far as I know. NEC invented the green laser, as someone recently shared here on AVS.

Einstein deserves the credit for inventing lasers. Again, not Christie.

Stacking a bunch of lasers together to multiply their lumens is just basic physics, and fiber-coupling them is the work of a century of engineers for which I give out zero credit to Christie, whatsoever.

FALD isn't Christie's idea either. What's left? Plugging those things together. I'm sure the implementation is well-done, sure, but the design isn't impressive. At all. It's brute force, nothing more.

The work done on redistributing light using LCoS in phase modulation mode for efficient HDR is a good first step towards not throwing away 96% of your electricity bill, but it's not per-pixel. I came up with a patent to do it per-pixel, but again, someone else already patented it and beat me to it, to my chagrin. I'm more focused in VR displays now, since I think projection is probably doomed. I'm more interested in RGB lasers with respect to gamut coverage, using 7 primaries instead of 6 or 8 or 3 (like that article posted here shows), reducing speckle, etc.

Using dual modulation to make up for low contrast light modulators isn't Christie's idea so don't bother pretending like it is.

I remember reading about it more than a decade ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrightSide_Technologies

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post #263 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 02:18 PM
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No one from the first light bulb until now has been able to accomplish what Christie has put together in this projector, not even close.
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post #264 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 02:22 PM
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I love Lambos (especially the 76' Countach), but I've read their road handling sucks, so yeah, I'd rather have a modern car with their shell but not their handling.

If I were rich enough to consider spending 500k on a projector, I'd probably also be able to consider buying a micro-LED wall and adding more panels as they get cheaper.

All I'm saying is, as good as the specs here are, they aren't achieved in a particularly elegant or cost-effective way. What interests me most about it isn't the contrast, it's the RGB lasers which will trickle down to consumer price levels within a couple years. Unless front projection dies by then, thanks to Micro-LED or wallpaper OLED TVs, which are already being built.
Well there you go again! Might I respectfully suggest that you stop making factually erroneous statements and opinions regarding things that you have in fact no actual personal experience, so you basically don't know what you are talking about?

In short, that is absolute garbage. Firstly, the Lamborghini Huracan Performante broke the record at the Nürburgring, broken only recently by... guess what? The new Lamborghini Aventador SVJ. Furthermore, the road handling of the Huracán Performante is nothing short of exceptional; contributed in no small part by the revolutionary aerodynamic system wherein the down-force is modulated by a computer automatically adjusting the airflow to being over and/or under the fixed rear spoiler, in conjunction with 4-wheel drive where the power to each wheel is controlled independently, in addition to a perfect centre of gravity. Where are it happens I can personal corroborate that the road handling is nothing short of absolutely superb. How? Because I have considerable experience driving one. That's how. Therefore, unlike you, I am able to actually offer a valid subjective opinion

But please, if you must, by all means carry on...

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post #265 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 02:23 PM
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This is a truly great accomplishment, regardless of price tag... however, even better if it triggers more innovation from others, let’s hope so!!

Still, the signal effect of this fantastic product is also important; it showcases the projector being something of the future, not a relic of the past...


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post #266 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 02:32 PM
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RGB lasers and lumens provided are not Christie inventions, as far as I know. NEC invented the green laser, as someone recently shared here on AVS.

Einstein deserves the credit for inventing lasers. Again, not Christie.

Stacking a bunch of lasers together to multiply their lumens is just basic physics, and fiber-coupling them is the work of a century of engineers for which I give out zero credit to Christie, whatsoever.

FALD isn't Christie's idea either. What's left? Plugging those things together. I'm sure the implementation is well-done, sure, but the design isn't impressive. At all. It's brute force, nothing more.

The work done on redistributing light using LCoS in phase modulation mode for efficient HDR is a good first step towards not throwing away 96% of your electricity bill, but it's not per-pixel. I came up with a patent to do it per-pixel, but again, someone else already patented it and beat me to it, to my chagrin. I'm more focused in VR displays now, since I think projection is probably doomed. I'm more interested in RGB lasers with respect to gamut coverage, using 7 primaries instead of 6 or 8 or 3 (like that article posted here shows), reducing speckle, etc.

Using dual modulation to make up for low contrast light modulators isn't Christie's idea so don't bother pretending like it is.

I remember reading about it more than a decade ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrightSide_Technologies
Please kindly quote me wherein I said that Christie invented all of: (1) RGB lasers; (2) Lumens; (3) FALD technology; and (4) dual modulation to make up for low contrast light modulators

And you realize that Dolby purchased Brightside Technologies in 2007 and developed Dolby Vision from the basic HDR technology it got from Brightside, right? You know, the techology that Dolby had Christie develop with respect to the D-Cinema version of this projector?

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Only way anyone is going to see this is if you give them a tour of the equipment room, because this projector has to go in a separate equipment room.
.....isn't that a given? ........your guests will clamour to see this piece of equipment that produces that mind blowing image.

The Sony 5000ES styling reminds of the old Sony Profeel CRT, perhaps it took design cues from that old but classic design. It was a Prosumer product, used here as studio monitors but also aimed at high end residential use. Loved it's design.


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Please kindly quote me wherein I said that Christie invented all of: (1) RGB lasers; (2) Lumens; (3) FALD technology; and (4) dual modulation to make up for low contrast light modulators
So what exactly are they supposed to be praised for? Implementing those ideas? CONGRATULATIONS! They hired competent engineers and implemented ideas invented decades ago into a new product.

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And you realize that Dolby purchased Brightside Technologies in 2007 and developed Dolby Vision from the basic HDR technology it got from Brightside, right? You know, the techology that Dolby had Christie develop with respect to the D-Cinema version of this projector?
Do you seriously expect me to believe that purchasing a patent is equivalent to inventing it yourself?
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post #269 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 03:20 PM
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Please kindly quote me wherein I said that Christie invented all of: (1) RGB lasers; (2) Lumens; (3) FALD technology; and (4) dual modulation to make up for low contrast light modulators
So what exactly are they supposed to be praised for? Implementing those ideas? CONGRATULATIONS! They hired competent engineers and implemented ideas invented decades ago into a new product.

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And you realize that Dolby purchased Brightside Technologies in 2007 and developed Dolby Vision from the basic HDR technology it got from Brightside, right? You know, the techology that Dolby had Christie develop with respect to the D-Cinema version of this projector?
Do you seriously expect me to believe that purchasing a patent is equivalent to inventing it yourself?
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post #270 of 664 Old 10-30-2018, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Seriously, though, until we have a super efficient projector that produces 21 MILLION: 1 ON/OFF contrast performance, concomitantly with 1,035:1 ANSI, at 30,000 lumens light output and over 92% of the BT.2020 color gamut, I guess we 'Drooling Patronising Fanboys' will just have to make do with this Christie projector, even though it has all of these problems, eh?


This sums it up nicely I think.


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