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post #61 of 155 Old 11-30-2018, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
That reminds me of what happened when I went out into the parking lot after getting my HA's.

My universe expanded - there was a huge feeling of space from hearing hearing distant echos of street sounds, leaves rustling in trees, etc.

I'm very interested to hear your impressions of the Resounds and how much difference the extra 1.5 kHz makes (if any, it's just a fraction of an octave).

Does your audiologist carry Bernafon?
She mentioned that Bernafon were the first to go to 8 kHz, but that Phonek and Resound and others go to 8 kHz now. She feels given my concerns that Phonak and ReSound are the best bets for me to demo and make a choice. We are taking stuff 1 step at a time. However, she emphasized that she really wants me to demo ReSound and that they may be even better, but we didn't get into specifics. Only after did I start looking up ReSound to find out they state their new models have frequency response extended to 9.5 kHz with dynamic range of 116 dB! I am so happy with the Phonak right now - SO HAPPY - but also excited to try out ReSound, as the technology described at their website "sounds" like they will work for me as an audiophile even better IF the technology translates to my "subjective" better sonics. We will "see"!

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.

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post #62 of 155 Old 12-03-2018, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Now that my Audiologist last Tuesday "opened up" the frequency correction of my demo Phonaks to fully correct my mild to moderate hearing loss (as opposed to a beginner's milder correction before), all I can say is - WOW!

First little things. Watched a tv show and sound seemed perhaps more open and better than before (comparing to the beginners correction before). I say perhaps. What I really noticed is I turned on my Sony VW5000 projector and heard a high pitched whirring I had never heard before. I thought gee I'm hearing too much gonna have to have the Audiologist turn it down. Fortunately, after a minute or two the high pitch went away, guess it was on startup for a bit. Wore these the past two days and tonight time for some music ! And here's the WOW! This full range frequency correction heck I dig it totally! Music is jumping at me with everything, its like I had an ear/brain transplant! HA! Two channel improvement is marked vs the beginners correction, which was a nice improvement vs no hearing aids.

Tonight listening to music, its like I'm in a whole new world!

When I next see my Audiologist she wants me to demo Resound. She is very interested in my feedback and personal perception as an audiophile. I have started to read up on Resound and interesting including 116 dB dynamics and frequncy correction to 9.5 kHZ.
https://www.resoundpro.com/en-US/hea.../sound-quality

Though I am happy as a camper right now! Even though the Phonaks only have frequency extension to 8 kHz!
In the past days I have listened to quite a bit of two channel in my theatre room. I must reiterate the "WOW". I find myself listening quieter dBwise than ever yet hearing so much more throughout the audio spectrum particularly the highs. The better the audio quality the source material even the better the improvement! And last night I went to a concert at the Phoenix Musical Instrument Museum (I am addicted), Devon Allman Project with special guest Duane Betts (yes, sons of The Allman Brothers) who were terrific, playing that southern rock etc, but adding in also some soul/R&B:


Poppin' out and back in my hearing aids at times throughout the concert, I continue to be astonished at the improvements sonically. I was warned this band would play loud (often 90 - 100 dB) and to put in earplugs (he was kidding) - but I found the sound level wonderful and pleasing, and
despite with the hearing aids I was able to hear so much more, it didn't sound louder than without the hearing aids, simply sounded much more pleasing (though I admit pre the hearing aids I would have thought this was so pleasing, too - but now I have a much better point of reference).

Keep in mind although these hearing aids can "restore"? frequency response to 8k, one also loses dynamic range of hearing over the years, too. My understanding is this cannot be restored. So I still do not have the hearing I had when I was 20 years old, now at 65! But its so much better.

I have scheduled more live concerts this next week, and then when my Audiologist has me give back these Phonaks and demo ReSound hearing aids I have several more live concerts in the 10 days thereafter.

I wonder if the reason so many audiophiles love turntables is because the reduced dynamic range of LPs better matches the reduced dynamic range of their hearing as they get older??? HA!

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #63 of 155 Old 12-10-2018, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
In the past days I have listened to quite a bit of two channel in my theatre room. I must reiterate the "WOW". I find myself listening quieter dBwise than ever yet hearing so much more throughout the audio spectrum particularly the highs. The better the audio quality the source material even the better the improvement! And last night I went to a concert at the Phoenix Musical Instrument Museum (I am addicted), Devon Allman Project with special guest Duane Betts (yes, sons of The Allman Brothers) who were terrific, playing that southern rock etc, but adding in also some soul/R&B:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsI6N4HUWR4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H6RNcnJffc

Poppin' out and back in my hearing aids at times throughout the concert, I continue to be astonished at the improvements sonically. I was warned this band would play loud (often 90 - 100 dB) and to put in earplugs (he was kidding) - but I found the sound level wonderful and pleasing, and
despite with the hearing aids I was able to hear so much more, it didn't sound louder than without the hearing aids, simply sounded much more pleasing (though I admit pre the hearing aids I would have thought this was so pleasing, too - but now I have a much better point of reference).

Keep in mind although these hearing aids can "restore"? frequency response to 8k, one also loses dynamic range of hearing over the years, too. My understanding is this cannot be restored. So I still do not have the hearing I had when I was 20 years old, now at 65! But its so much better.

I have scheduled more live concerts this next week, and then when my Audiologist has me give back these Phonaks and demo ReSound hearing aids I have several more live concerts in the 10 days thereafter.

I wonder if the reason so many audiophiles love turntables is because the reduced dynamic range of LPs better matches the reduced dynamic range of their hearing as they get older??? HA!
My above impressions continue to hold true! And music in my audio room is simply a joy listening lower volume wise on my Theta Casablanca IVA SSP yet being more engaged musically, not just highs, but across the audio spectrum up to the 8k limits of the Phonak hearing aids. Looking forward to demo the ReSound starting this Wed.

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #64 of 155 Old 12-10-2018, 03:29 PM
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Great thread, Steve--thanks for sharing your experiences with the rest of us. I am seventy, and I have a notch in my hearing between 4 and 6 kHz in my left ear, to the point where the difference in my two ears is noticeable. I can her up to a little past 8k, but I'm sure there's some rollof there, too.

Hopefully I'll be able to find as good an audiologist in the Albuquerque area as you did.

My one concern is, is there any danger that boosting the frequencies where we're deficient will make the problem worse in the long run?

Also, do your HAs introduce any distortion?

I've spent a lot of money on my current system, and I'd like to be able to get the most out of it.

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post #65 of 155 Old 12-11-2018, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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My one concern is, is there any danger that boosting the frequencies where we're deficient will make the problem worse in the long run?
Not of which I am aware and I've seen nothing in my online sleuthing to indicate this. I'll put this on my list of questions to ask my Audiologist though.

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Also, do your HAs introduce any distortion?
This is a totally legit question. Online stuff like 5 - 10 years ago indicated some audiophiles had big issues with this - too much compression as hearing aids were primarily designed to speech not music. But in the past few years this has been changing - as with the Phonak HAs I am having no compression or distortion issues that I can tell at all. Its amazing!

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #66 of 155 Old 12-11-2018, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Last night I watched the 4k blu ray disc of "Crazy Rich Asians". What a surprise. Beatiful video taking place over in China! A reference picture! And the sound - a very wonderful and very musical soundtrack. With the Phonak hearing aids, the improvement in sonics was remarkable. Music was simply a good amount more - musical.
Soundstage for music was improved and wrapped around me even more than without the HAs. And all across the audio spectrum the musical soundtrack was more full bodied and real as well as the more natural and expanded soundstage.

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #67 of 155 Old 12-11-2018, 12:07 PM
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My one concern is, is there any danger that boosting the frequencies where we're deficient will make the problem worse in the long run?

I was wondering about that too; maybe boosting the treble sufficiently to restore it to previous perceived SPL would further damage the little hairs.

Or, perhaps, and hopefully, it's the same hairs that are responsible for both mid and high freq hearing and that it's excessive mid freq SPL that does the damage.

Steve, could you ask your audiologist about this?

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post #68 of 155 Old 12-11-2018, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I was wondering about that too; maybe boosting the treble sufficiently to restore it to previous perceived SPL would further damage the little hairs.

Or, perhaps, and hopefully, it's the same hairs that are responsible for both mid and high freq hearing and that it's excessive mid freq SPL that does the damage.

Steve, could you ask your audiologist about this?
I think we’re splitting hairs (Ha!) as my hearing is already damaged and hearing aids only improve my hearing. I think the proper answer is that improper use/adjustment of hearing aids could over time make hearing worse just as too loud of noise can make hearing worse! But I’ll ask. This is a good reason to find and use a top notch Audiologist in the first place. To avoid improper hearing aid/device settings that could perhaps cause more issues with your hearing!

Same thing re ear cleaning. Get this done periodically by a good ENT doctor. I know of a person who had ears cleaned by even a family doctor using some instrument and thereafter suffered major hearing loss.

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #69 of 155 Old 12-11-2018, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I was wondering about that too; maybe boosting the treble sufficiently to restore it to previous perceived SPL would further damage the little hairs.

Or, perhaps, and hopefully, it's the same hairs that are responsible for both mid and high freq hearing and that it's excessive mid freq SPL that does the damage.

Steve, could you ask your audiologist about this?
https://www.mdhearingaid.com/en/blog...e-hearing-loss

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #70 of 155 Old 12-11-2018, 02:05 PM
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Anyone know of a good audiologist in the Los Angeles area?
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post #71 of 155 Old 12-11-2018, 05:08 PM
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"Under most circumstances, the answer to “Will my hearing aids cause hearing loss?” is no. But hearing devices can damage your hearing further if not programmed correctly. Because hearing loss can caused by prolonged exposure to loud noises (80 decibels is typically considered the top threshold), programming your hearing aids properly is critical. If your hearing aids are programmed to make noises louder than needed, that programming could cause additional hearing damage. However, if hearing aids are programmed correctly, fit well, and filter sounds properly, then they should not damage your hearing."


Taken at face value, the above means that damage will occur if it takes >80dB for the HA to compensate for high freq loss.

But it doesn't specifically address my question about the frequency dependency of the loss.

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post #72 of 155 Old 12-12-2018, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Got demo ReSound hearing aids mid afternoon today. Came home and listened to music not impressed. Didn't seem to do much compared to no hearing aids and I felt dynamics perhaps limited a bit. I was prepared to bring them back tomorrow very disappointed and get the Phonaks I had demod back whichwere excellent! I went out for dinner using the hearing aids and all I started getting was a minor headache. I came back home quite dejected. However, I decided to try again but expecting to be disappointed listening to 2 channel music. Surprising after a bit the sound has opened up and I'm srarting to really like ths music! Popping the hearing aids in and out I am now hearing a marked sonic improvement vs no HAs! Lyn Stanley's new album "London Calling: A Tribute to Julie London" is hitting me off the charts now more than I recall yesterday listening with the Phonaks! Same for another new album "Carpenters with The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra"! Now I'm listening to "Tettero Plays Eddie Harris and Les McCann". Whereas earlier today this not much different than without my new demo ReSound HAs. now its no doubt as nice, full bodied, better across the board especially highs and as good if not better than I remember with the Phonaks.

I had thought that since I had the Phonaks for more than 2 weeks at full frequency correction that my ear/brain would be used to these demo ReSound hearing aids right away. But apparently it took some hours of using the ReSound hearing aids for my ear/brain to start really adapting!
It "looked" like this was gonna be a good example that what you expect, better sonics as ReSound is speced to 9.5 kHz (8 kHz for Phonak) and 116 dB, was simply not the case, thus the folks who argue you must "blind test" don't know jack S--T! But I am glad this is gonna be a contest now!

And yea I was wrong re pricing. We had discussed price per each single hearing aid before. So yea for latest current model more suited for the crazy audiophile it can be a lot more than going to Costco and getting a more basic model without the auto music mode and what I consider more audiophile features. Up to each consumer to determine what they can and are willing to spend I guess - nothing new in high end audio. But I will say this. My Audiologist only can bill Medicare for the first hearing test visit - not after. And she is willing to continue following up with me, get me fitted in the best hearing aids, and follow up at no extra cost for a good year or more. That is worth something - to me!

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.

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post #73 of 155 Old 12-12-2018, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Got demo ReSound hearing aids mid afternoon today. Came home and listened to music not impressed. Didn't seem to do much compared to no hearing aids and I felt dynamics perhaps limited a bit. I was prepared to bring them back tomorrow very disappointed and get the Phonaks I had demod back whichwere excellent! I went out for dinner using the hearing aids and all I started getting was a minor headache. I came back home quite dejected. However, I decided to try again but expecting to be disappointed listening to 2 channel music. Surprising after a bit the sound has opened up and I'm srarting to really like ths music! Popping the hearing aids in and out I am now hearing a marked sonic improvement vs no HAs! Lyn Stanley's new album "London Calling: A Tribute to Julie London" is hitting me off the charts now more than I recall yesterday listening with the Phonaks! Same for another new album "Carpenters with The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra"! I had thought that since I had the Phonaks for more than 2 weeks at full frequency correction that my ear/brain would be used to these demo ReSound hearing aids right away. But apparently it took some hours of using the ReSound hearing aids for my ear/brain to start really adapting!
Is there any way you can have them both at once so you can A/B them?

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post #74 of 155 Old 12-12-2018, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there any way you can have them both at once so you can A/B them?
I'm not gonna even ask.

Plus it takes ear/brain time to adapt to different brand/somewhat different technology hearing aids. Switching between brands on the fly will have its own issues!

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #75 of 155 Old 12-12-2018, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Some info on tne ReSound I started demoing today

https://www.resoundpro.com/en-US/hea.../sound-quality

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #76 of 155 Old 12-12-2018, 09:32 PM
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Some info on tne ReSound I started demoing today

https://www.resoundpro.com/en-US/hea.../sound-quality
Looks very interesting--Keep us posted.

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post #77 of 155 Old 12-13-2018, 06:38 AM
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I have moderate hearing loss and got a Starkey Completely in the ear IIc. Certainly helped with my general hearing but audiologists have the market cornered and they control the price. On sale with a supposed 10% discount it cost me over $7000 for the pair. They probably pay a tenth of that. There's a huge mark-up the same with dentists and crowns and even Lasik surgery. The ophthalmologist here does them like an assembly line taking around 5 minutes each doing over 20 in the morning alone. Making well over a grand a pop. Absolutely absurd. He made so much money he bought several floors of a large medical office and even has a large private jet. I don't mind paying but I hate getting ripped off. Getting back to my Starkey, it was supposed to be great with music but I disagree. I have perfect pitch and can hear some of the mid-range notes (just a few) slightly off key and even distorted at times. I've been listening to classical music my entire life and without the aids sometimes my brain puts the note I should hear that I'm not cooking me into thinking I've heard it if that makes sense. For example listening to the third movement of Chopin's 1st piano concerto some of the piano runs and the high notes I don't hear if I concentrate if not my brain put them in and I think I heard them. My wife didn't want me to get the behind the ear models which certainly would have been better because she didn't want me to look like an 'old man'. I did go to Costco but I wanted the smallest and best available which they didn't have. Interesting tomlearn they use older models. Personally I think using 2015 technology is old. Hearing aids should be improving like Moore's law every 18 months.
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post #78 of 155 Old 12-13-2018, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting discussions about 16 bit vs 24 bit DACs (analog to digital converters) for hearing aids:

http://www.hearingreview.com/2015/07...moves-new-era/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4040855/

16 bit DACs are only capable of 95-96 dB on intake, whereas 24 bit DACs may be capable of up to 119 dB on intake. Therefore as ReSound states that their top new line (out a few months now) has 116 dB dynamic range these DACs must be 24 bit.

When I say on input, this is the original dynamic range of sound that the DAC can capture and convert. Lets say you are at a concert, and some of the sonics extend up to dynamic quick peaks of 105 dB. With a 16 bit DAC, everything above 95-96 dB is truncated and this leads to distortion in the analog digital conversion.

Even if a DAC is 24 bit, this doesn't guarentee it sound better on music and live concerts than a 16 bit one. That depends on the programming and software. Thus yesterday, when I first got the ReSound to demo, they sounded "horrible" in that hardly any different than no hearing aids at all and I thought I could actually ascertain some compression at times. But after wearing them some hours, they opened up and sound great!

In coming years as technology improves and computer/DAC chips become more powerful, no doubt more and more hearing aids at least at the top levels will move to 24 bit, to the extent they haven't done so already. My online sleuthing indicates hearing aid companies DO NOT advertise specs of whether their DACs are 16, 20 or 24 bit. Maybe in the future this will be more of a marketing point?

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post #79 of 155 Old 12-13-2018, 10:21 AM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Interesting discussions about 16 bit vs 24 bit DACs (analog to digital converters) for hearing aids:

http://www.hearingreview.com/2015/07...moves-new-era/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4040855/

16 bit DACs are only capable of 95-96 dB on intake, whereas 24 bit DACs may be capable of up to 119 dB on intake. Therefore as ReSound states that their top new line (out a few months now) has 116 dB dynamic range these DACs must be 24 bit.

When I say on input, this is the original dynamic range of sound that the DAC can capture and convert. Lets say you are at a concert, and some of the sonics extend up to dynamic quick peaks of 105 dB. With a 16 bit DAC, everything above 95-96 dB is truncated and this leads to distortion in the analog digital conversion.

Even if a DAC is 24 bit, this doesn't guarentee it sound better on music and live concerts than a 16 bit one. That depends on the programming and software. Thus yesterday, when I first got the ReSound to demo, they sounded "horrible" in that hardly any different than no hearing aids at all and I thought I could actually ascertain some compression at times. But after wearing them some hours, they opened up and sound great!

In coming years as technology improves and computer/DAC chips become more powerful, no doubt more and more hearing aids at least at the top levels will move to 24 bit, to the extent they haven't done so already. My online sleuthing indicates hearing aid companies DO NOT advertise specs of whether their DACs are 16, 20 or 24 bit. Maybe in the future this will be more of a marketing point?
Minor point: They're referring to A/Ds, not D/As, in the link you posted.

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Originally Posted by moonhawk View Post
Minor point: They're referring to A/Ds, not D/As, in the link you posted.
Good article, though...

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Originally Posted by kbrod1 View Post
I have perfect pitch and can hear some of the mid-range notes (just a few) slightly off key and even distorted at times.

Do they have the option to turn off some of the processing?

IIRC various noise reduction etc processing works in freq bands, which can result in artifacts like you described.



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My wife didn't want me to get the behind the ear models which certainly would have been better because she didn't want me to look like an 'old man'. I did go to Costco but I wanted the smallest and best available which they didn't have.

That shouldn't be an issue unless you have a shaved head and ears that stick out.

My Rextons and many others I've seen are small enough to tuck behind the ears and are available in a few colors to match your hair.

The only visible part is the thin clear tubes that run into the ear canal, and virtually no one notices them; people are always surprised to find out I have HA's.

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post #83 of 155 Old 12-13-2018, 06:04 PM
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I'm 44 but have had tinnitus basically my whole life. I know hearing aids are in my future. Thanks for all the info.

One question: Do you guys use EQ on your music systems to correct the frequencies you're deficient in? I do. It helps bring the music to life. Turning on the EQ brings me some of the same observations you mention. Obviously not purist but neither is a constant ringing in the ears.
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Hi,
I saw a link to here from computeraudiophile and read both this and the other thread on hearing aids for audiophiles. So I joined up here to tell my unfolding story, if it may help others.


I started to notice problems with conversations in noisy spaces about 2 years ago. Got to an audiologist (son of my primary care Doc !) 3 mo. later to learn the deeply depressing news I was starting to roll off fast at 1Khz . I still enjoyed my canned music and could listen critically to gear & s/w changes. Speech wasn't too much of a problem, so I put off any action. A year later, another test, to the relief I hadn't gotten worse. Now 6 months later, I decided to get a pair of HAs, as i could 'feel' a loss of audio perception. It seemed time.


I had decided my choice of HA from comments in a PSAudio 'Ask Paul' segment. The link is the last one on the very 1st page of this thread. What sealed the deal for me was both that the GHI HA's were the choice of symphony musicians (who would know, or care more?), and it was inexpensive and available.


So a week ago I bought a pair of General Hearing Instruments (GHI) 'Simplicity HiFi EP' aids. I got them online (only) from Walmart (or Sams Club online) since they were a bit cheaper. I paid less then $800 for the pair plus 6% MI sales tax, delivered to my door. Some of the prices mentioned in this thread are horrifying to this poor pensioner


They are definitely simple: behind the ear with a tube into the canal, where a soft, perforated cone holds it centered and lets sound thru. It has one control, a tiny on-off/volume knob that even with my tiny-things-trained fingers, can't adjust in place Oh and the battery pops out for the preferred 'off' control.


The action is simple too, they add missing highs, nothing else. Not only do I apply a strong principle of "Less Is More" to my audio system, but to other aspects of my life. I am very suspicious of uncontrolled expansion of complexity in systems. More and more often it can produce terrible results (Windows, Facebook, modern automobile behavior ???).


I am just in the beginning HA stages, only getting the levels adjusted properly (with help from my audio system ) a few days back. They are still irritating to wear, so need time and practice. I don't want to comment on hearing changes yet, that needs more time to settle, and my critical listening practice is always for extended (many days) exposure.


So, Cheers for now,
Dave

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post #85 of 155 Old 12-16-2018, 05:31 PM
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Thanks for the review, Dave, very interesting.


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Originally Posted by Daudio1 View Post
...they add missing highs, nothing else.

Can you elaborate on the above?

I don't get that from what the GH site says:

"The Simplicity™ Hi-Fidelity OTE was developed to help provide an ideal balance of listening for a wide variety of sounds encountered in everyday life. The wide dynamic range compression/expansion system separates incoming sounds, into low-pitched and high-pitched sounds.

simiplicity-hi-fi-productBass and treble are adjusted automatically and continuously. The sound processing makes soft sounds easier to hear and maintains loud sounds at comfortable levels. The result is pure, clear sound reproduction.

The wide bandwidth eliminates “tinny” sound while providing clearer speech understanding, superior sound quality and the highest fidelity possible. This specialty design protects the sound circuit from very intense sounds that can cause unpleasant distortion.

The Simplicity Hi-Fidelity EP OTE will allow the user to enjoy the “music of life” once again. Musicians or music enthusiasts will especially appreciate the excel- lent harmonics that give music its richness.

The user adjustable volume control allows the user to make precise adjustments to gain and output. By not amplifying loud sounds the need to constantly adjust the volume control in different listening environments is eliminated."


Also, the last sentence is a bit concerning, as my hearing loss profile need treble boost at all SPL.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Can you elaborate on the above?
I don't get that from what the GH site says:
Ok, maybe I don't understand exactly how the device works. I didn't see the text you quote. I had picked up an impression from the comments in the "Paul Speaks" segment, a couple of graphs in the Owners Manual. That and how they feel to me in the week or so I have been experimenting with them.


One other (big?) factor is most of the information about these, and other devices mentioned in this thread, sounds like techie bs market-speak that most audiophiles should have a strong filter for by now.


Were you concerned about my distrust of (overly) complex technology? Sorry but I can't help you there, everyone should be skeptical on that score.

In fact I know one audiophile with failing hearing that was driven into depression by the wretched performance of his various HAs and his audiologists worthless (at best) advice. I suspect heroic digital 'speech assistance', auto mode sensing/switching and whatever software got too far off the reservation for good 'hearing assistance'


And I'm not talking about those with specific, unusual hearing problems, but the majority of folks whose treble response is dropping off fairly linearly (like mine, and I think the graph that Steve posted).



All of this is IMHO I have much more to learn...


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post #87 of 155 Old 12-17-2018, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daudio1 View Post
Were you concerned about my distrust of (overly) complex technology?

Not at all.

I have two concerns about the GH devices - that they may just be amplifying w/o correction of treble rolloff, and what GH said about not amplifying high levels, which would in effect also result in insufficient treble.

I'm pretty happy with my current HA's so I'm not motivated to investigate further, as the landscape may be very different by the time I need new ones.

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post #88 of 155 Old 12-18-2018, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Got demo ReSound hearing aids mid afternoon today. Came home and listened to music not impressed. Didn't seem to do much compared to no hearing aids and I felt dynamics perhaps limited a bit. I was prepared to bring them back tomorrow very disappointed and get the Phonaks I had demod back whichwere excellent! I went out for dinner using the hearing aids and all I started getting was a minor headache. I came back home quite dejected. However, I decided to try again but expecting to be disappointed listening to 2 channel music. Surprising after a bit the sound has opened up and I'm srarting to really like ths music! Popping the hearing aids in and out I am now hearing a marked sonic improvement vs no HAs! Lyn Stanley's new album "London Calling: A Tribute to Julie London" is hitting me off the charts now more than I recall yesterday listening with the Phonaks! Same for another new album "Carpenters with The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra"! Now I'm listening to "Tettero Plays Eddie Harris and Les McCann". Whereas earlier today this not much different than without my new demo ReSound HAs. now its no doubt as nice, full bodied, better across the board especially highs and as good if not better than I remember with the Phonaks.

I had thought that since I had the Phonaks for more than 2 weeks at full frequency correction that my ear/brain would be used to these demo ReSound hearing aids right away. But apparently it took some hours of using the ReSound hearing aids for my ear/brain to start really adapting!
It "looked" like this was gonna be a good example that what you expect, better sonics as ReSound is speced to 9.5 kHz (8 kHz for Phonak) and 116 dB, was simply not the case, thus the folks who argue you must "blind test" don't know jack S--T! But I am glad this is gonna be a contest now!
I've done some internet sleuthing to discover that the latest top line Phonak (the top line Phonak I demod came out in 2015, and the latest line came out a few weeks ago), ReSound and Oticon are speced for dynamic range (ability to process incoming audio) at 111 (this is for the just out Marvel line, the Audeo line I demod is 95 dB), 113 and 116 dB, respectively. And Phonak (the latest Marvel and the prior Audeo) are speced for 8 kHz, whereas ReSound and Oticon are speced for 9.5 kHz. Since Phonak, ReSound and Oticon are all speced dynamic range well above 95 dB, and above 110 dB, looks like they have all moved into 24 bit chips.

I've done a lot more music listening in my theater. And some movies/tv. Interesting that with my Sony VPL-5000VW projector on, with the Phonak Audeo I did hear a high pitched whirr which went away after a few minutes, whereas with the ReSound that high pitched whirr usually continues on as a very very low volumewise high pitched wirr through my watching stuff. I watched again some of the 4k disc "Crazy Rich Asians", with a really nice musical soundtrack, and realized that whereas the Phonak Audeo seemed to give more detail from the ground (mid bass) up and even expand the soundstage a bit and make me want to listen only with the hearing aids (HAs) in, that the ReSound didn't do anything to hurt the music, but overall did a good amount less of improvement to the music. And this is what I found in listening to a lot of music as well, that the ReSound did improve the very top end somewhat, but that the Phonak Audeo seemed to give more detail from the ground (mid bass) up and even expand the soundstage a bit, with vocals being more enticing and pulling me in, with drum brushes and cymbal metal sounding being so much more clear, etc etc. With the Phonak Audeo, piano and harp has clearly a bit higher pitch and more enticing, whereas with the ReSound I didn't really feel drawn in any more than without the HAs.

I've been a bit down and out and missed two concerts late last week where I would have demod ReSound with live music, but I'm better now but anticipate from my own two channel music that my reaction will likely be similar tonight when as I am better I will be seeing/hearing Peter White jazz! And I'm following up with my Audiologist this Wednesday.

I think what happened the first afternoon/evening I had the ReSounds, when they initially sounded worse than not using HAs, is that it took me some hours using them to adapt, and that evening music sounded so much better that I thought my ear/brain would continue to adapt and they would hold true to the speced 116 dB and 9.5 kHz specs. But that's not what happened.

Keep in mind that its not only the chipset bits, not only the dynamic range and frequency response specs, but most importantly the software programming and how the combination of everything sounds for music which concerns me as an audiophile. One more observation. I play digital test tones from "Audiophile Speaker Set-Up (2xHD) test disc with frequencies from 16 Hz on up to 20 kHz. With the Phonak Bolero, I could hear test tones up to 8kHz relatively even with the HAs but 8 kHz much lower in volume without the HAs. With the ReSound, I could hear test tones up to 10 kHz but with 10 kHz down some but not half, and I could also hear more vibration in the test tones. Yet as I've said the musicality, the excitement, the "I've got to have them" is far more up the scale for me with the Phonak Bolero vs the ReSound.Whatever Phonak has done with the Audeo I demod makes me happy to plunk down too much $$$ and buy the even newer model Marvel (assuming I can demo them and find they are I assume even better given Phonak's experience in software programming of their HAs).

My Audiologist also has Oticon so I am hoping to demo them as well.
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Last edited by Steve Bruzonsky; 12-19-2018 at 04:20 PM.
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post #89 of 155 Old 12-19-2018, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
I've done a lot more music listening in my theater. And some movies/tv. Interesting that with my Sony VPL-5000VW projector on, with the Phonak Audeo I did hear a high pitched whirr which went away after a few minutes, whereas with the ReSound that high pitched whirr usually continues on as a very very low volumewise high pitched wirr through my watching stuff. I watched again some of the 4k disc "Crazy Rich Asians", with a really nice musical soundtrack, and realized that whereas the Phonak Audeo seemed to give more detail from the ground (mid bass) up and even expand the soundstage a bit and make me want to listen only with the hearing aids (HAs) in, that the ReSound didn't do anything to hurt the music, but overall did a good amount less of improvement to the music. And this is what I found in listening to a lot of music as well, that the ReSound did improve the very top end somewhat, but that the Phonak Audeo seemed to give more detail from the ground (mid bass) up and even expand the soundstage a bit, with vocals being more enticing and pulling me in, with drum brushes and cymbal metal sounding being so much more clear, etc etc. With the Phonak Boleros, piano and harp has clearly a bit higher pitch and more enticing, whereas with the ReSound I didn't really feel drawn in any more than without the HAs.

I've been a bit down and out and missed two concerts late last week where I would have demod ReSound with live music, but I'm better now but anticipate from my own two channel music that my reaction will likely be similar tonight when as I am better I will be seeing/hearing Peter White jazz! And I'm following up with my Audiologist this Wednesday.
My observations of using the ReSound hearing aids at the Peter White/Rick Braun Christmas jazz concert last night are similar to my observations in my own two channel setup. First, phenomenal concert. They all sang, too, quite nicely, one song acapella with no instruments! Very 3d presentation which I measured up to 98 dB at one point! I popped the ReSound HAs in and out many times during the show, and uniformly found they added just a tad and that's all. Keyboard and xylaphone sounded pitchwise the same with or without the HAs, whereas with the Phonaks I could easily discern a somewhat higher better pitch to these musical instruments. I think its pretty obvious Phonak made a choice to program their upper tier hearing aids with Autosound and music program to avoid compression but to improve the sonics and apply frequency correction at all levels; whereas ReSound was happy not to compress the existing sound and perhaps make the sound a tad better. Again, interesting as I demod the Phonak Bolero, a 16 bit model with 8k frequency extension and 95 dB dynamic range input processing which came out in 2015, and the ReSound is a 24 bit with 9.5k frequency extension and 116 dB dynamic range input processing and just came out a few months ago. Now would like to demo the latest Oticon, speced at 9.5 kHz and 113 dB; and the latest Phonak Marvel that just came out speced at 8 kHz and 111 dB. Of course I anticipate the latest just out Phonak Marvel will perform even better than the 2015 Phonak Audeo model I demod!

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Last edited by Steve Bruzonsky; 12-19-2018 at 04:22 PM.
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post #90 of 155 Old 12-19-2018, 10:05 AM
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My last hearing test was actually last week. Results are profoundly deaf in right ear & severe hearing loss in left ear. The hearing loss in the right ear was due to a brain tumor, to get to it haad to go through my ear. I do wear hearing aids, Costco, around $1800. Did try other brands audiologist sold or recommended they were anywhere from $4k to $6k. I can still hear but only if up loud, like TV volume control at 98 or any volume indicator up pretty. My neighbor one said you sure like to listen to music LOUD. I can hear it when I go get my mail.
In my particular case, my hearing loss didnt stem from loud exposure to music at the source, although i have attended my fair share of concerts in my younger days, but more of from disease.
Late life hearing loss, is absolutely the worst and most depressing. Mine started around 50, I'm 63 now. It really socially isolates you, in order to hear something, I have to turn the volume up so loud, its uncomfortable for others. Most TV's do not have a way of outputting sound to the tv sets speakers and something external. I go to a movie, I really cant understand it, it could be a silent pic for me. Going out to eat, most dining places are noisy, I cant understand anything at all. I need a really quite place, to hear. Plus sometimes you are concentrating on hearing so much, you miss whats actually being said. Plus walking through a Costco or Publix, its pretty much quiet is very freaky.
When I'm doing yoga, constantly tinkering with my hearing aids. Turning them up for standing poses and down or ff for floor poses to avoid feedback, so it impacts my practice.
$75K worth of audio gear, sits unused most of the time. The bulk of my listening is thru a couple of SONOS 1, that I can place right near me ears.
The best sound I get is from Trekz Air headphones paired up with my iphone
But I'll tell you this much, even with my crappy hearing, I can still tell what sounds good. I can go to friends homes, listen to OTB sound bars & subwoofers, surrounds etc. but when i get home, fire up the Theta & Aerial gear it does sound better. Just so frigging loud

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