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post #121 of 142 Old 04-17-2019, 02:09 PM
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When I visited an audiologist 6 years ago he recommended a set of HAs that cost over $5000. That is obscene. My house is a 20 year old fifth wheel RV that is fabulous. It cost me $4200. How come HAs cost so much? A cell phone is about 100 times more complex and they cost 1/10th the price. Makes no sense to me.
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post #122 of 142 Old 04-17-2019, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post
I know I can't hear as well as I did as a teen but can still hear fairly high freq sounds when listening to music.

I don't think treble has much impact in speech intelligibility.

It's not uncommon to have a big midrange notch from using power tools and motorcycles w/o protection - like me.

I have a 25 dB notch centered at 2.5 kHz, which I believe is smack in the range that adds the edges to speech.

My HA's help intelligibility a lot.

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post #123 of 142 Old 04-18-2019, 08:04 AM
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I forgot to mention earlier how very informative and useful this thread is. It really helped get me motivated to seek help for my impairment. The fact that my wife is a retired audiologist also had more than a little to do with it.

Thanks, Steve, for setting up this thread!

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post #124 of 142 Old 04-18-2019, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by drhemi View Post
I forgot to mention earlier how very informative and useful this thread is. It really helped get me motivated to seek help for my impairment. The fact that my wife is a retired audiologist also had more than a little to do with it.

Thanks, Steve, for setting up this thread!

Wayne
You are most welcome.

So for less than a day I've been demoing the new Phonak Marvel hearing aids.
n my Lexus ES350, on playing some jazz Acoustic Alchemy, I could hear more highs with cymbals than without the Marvel HAs. I can also connect Marvel HAs directly via bluetooth to my iPhone, which for phone calls is nice (and you can just talk, phone can be across room but Marvel HAs will pick up your talking and bluetooth to the iPhone!), but for music sounds way better and "full bodied" having music on via Lexus audio system.

Playing some jazz in my dedicated home theatre, there definitely is a bit more 3D or roundness to the presentation, sometimes a bit fuller midrange, although the volume level seems pretty much the same Marvel HAs or not. What I am really trying to listen for is whether the Marvel HAs result in any negatives, such as decreased dynamics like on drums or cymbals or loud bass; also whether any sonic improvement is worth the hassle of paying for and wearing the hearing aids in the first place, at least to me personally and subjectively.

tonight is Spyro Gyra live at the Phoenix Musical Instrument Museum. Should be interesting.

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post #125 of 142 Old 04-18-2019, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Spyro Gyra live tonight! Frankly, I preferred NOT wearing the Marvel HAs. Overall I felt perhaps the HAs may just have restricted sonics and dynamics a bit, at least on several of their songs which got really bangin' away!

In my theater, listening to music, perhaps it sounded a bit better today - but I don't know if enough better to pay for and wear the hearing aids.

I suspect that although my other week hearing test came back similar to my hearing test last November, that my physical woes leading to ruptured appendix Dec 20th may have had something to do with the positives I then experienced with Phonak HAs at that time. However, during that same time, I demod two other HAs brands and felt they did little to nothing for music and live concerts for me.

I will continue to demo for the rest of the month.

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post #126 of 142 Old 04-19-2019, 09:51 AM
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Hey Steve,

I saw in your prior post you mentioned how hearing aids reduced your Tinnitus - did this hold up over time?

I do have high frequency hearing loss and developed Tinnitus about five years ago (initiated from using some crappy headphones at work). On some days, my Tinnitus is so loud I can easily hear it in the shower. On other days, it's so quiet it's hard to hear. Unfortunately, I have more loud days than quiet and that's gotten worse over time. My hearing hasn't changed and the doctor I went to (Pawel Jastreboff) actually tested my hair cells and said I shouldn't experience anymore hearing loss for another 10-15 years (I'm almost 47) as they show strong resiliency based on testing. I've done TRT for my Tinnitus and it's helped me to habituate to some degree, but those loud Tinnitus days are sometimes are annoying still. He did say a hearing aid would likely help reduce the Tinnitus as "restoring" those high frequency signals will in essence make the brain turn down the gain reducing the buzzing noise. As we know, hearing loss is the usual reason for Tinnitus.

I did try a low quality hearing aid (about 2K) from a different place once and the sound quality was beyond terrible. Everything sounded like a digital synthesizer or C-3PO. However, the better hearing aids run from 5-7K from what I am told. At some point down the road this is probably inevitable for me. Conversationally, I hear fine but some movies the dialogue can be a little hard to hear as I have to turn up the volume, but then turn it back down in a louder scene. My audio set-up has been Audyssey pro-cal'd by Chad B and switching to ribbon based tweeters helped a lot.
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post #127 of 142 Old 04-19-2019, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Seemed that my tinnitus has been way better since I completed several weeks of IV antibiotics after my ruptured appendix last Dec 20th. And I just started the new HA demo a few days ago but can't say tinnitus is much of any issue anymore regardless of HAs.

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post #128 of 142 Old 04-20-2019, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I saw in your prior post you mentioned how hearing aids reduced your Tinnitus - did this hold up over time?
It has for me.

The reasons are well understood; when the missing freq are replaced by the HA's, the brain produces less of them.

It sounds like your bad experience may have been due to bad programming.

If it is a quality, issue, I'm happy with my Rextons from Costco ($2800/pr).

Noah
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post #129 of 142 Old 04-20-2019, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
It has for me.

The reasons are well understood; when the missing freq are replaced by the HA's, the brain produces less of them.

It sounds like your bad experience may have been due to bad programming.

If it is a quality, issue, I'm happy with my Rextons from Costco ($2800/pr).
You misunderstand. My Audiologist's programming is fine.

I had some tinnitus and headaches for many months PRIOR to demoing HAs. When I demoed the HAs the last few months of 2018, my tinnitus and HAs improved considerably. Turned out my appendix probably ruptured July 2017 (based on then symptoms, which resolved seemingly in 4-5 days), but I continued to have some effects and periodic lighter symptoms thereafter. Finally with a Dx of appendix rupture and IV antibiotics for several weeks I simply felt much better and notice that the tinnitus was much improved all on its own.

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post #130 of 142 Old 04-20-2019, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Late last night with the Phonak HAs I was listening to "Chillin" (Carmell Jones/Joe Pass) (High Definition Tape Transfers) and "4 Wheel Drive" (Nils Landgren/Michael Wollney/Lars Danielsson/Wolfgang Haffner) (ACT Music). Although everything sounded great naked (that is, no HAs), sonics were better with the HAs. Treble, cymbals, fullness simply seemed a bit more real with the HAs. Dynamics weren't lost one iota, and there is some really good dynamic drumming. The Spyro Gyro concert the other night I pretty much preferred no HAs overall, but in my theater the HAs were nice last night! I'll continue demoing the HAs and I can see there are times I do not prefer them and times that I do!

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post #131 of 142 Old 04-20-2019, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
You misunderstand. My Audiologist's programming is fine.

You misunderstand I was responding to David.

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post #132 of 142 Old 04-20-2019, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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You misunderstand I was responding to David.
Ah Ah. Our favorite song "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood"!

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post #133 of 142 Old 04-24-2019, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Late last night with the Phonak HAs I was listening to "Chillin" (Carmell Jones/Joe Pass) (High Definition Tape Transfers) and "4 Wheel Drive" (Nils Landgren/Michael Wollney/Lars Danielsson/Wolfgang Haffner) (ACT Music). Although everything sounded great naked (that is, no HAs), sonics were better with the HAs. Treble, cymbals, fullness simply seemed a bit more real with the HAs. Dynamics weren't lost one iota, and there is some really good dynamic drumming. The Spyro Gyro concert the other night I pretty much preferred no HAs overall, but in my theater the HAs were nice last night! I'll continue demoing the HAs and I can see there are times I do not prefer them and times that I do!
Tonight Christian McBride Big Band Concert at Mesa Arts Center. My impression was similar to last week's Spyro Gyro concert, preferred going "naked" without HAs, only one one song did I seem to hear highs that I missed without the HAs on.

Tonight. listening to Art Pepper "Gettin Together" and Chet Baker & Art Pepper "Playboys" (High Definition Tape Transfers). With my Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP ROON Ready via ethernet playing in Auro-3D at a nice level approximating live (as best one can without blowing out tweeters. HA!) I've gotta say that the HAs offer no benefit. Sound is maybe a tad different HAs vs "naked" in the HAs tend to "enclose" one in a bit like headphones, whereas "naked" is simply somewhat more open, at least that's how I perceive it in general. Keep in mind that although the HAs v "naked" have an approximate matched level, when you deal with EQ there is no perfect matching, and one might prefer how one sounds over the other at a given system volume and if one varies the volume that preference might disappear.

I just put on "Chillin" again. "Somewhere Over The Rainbow". Interesting. I am hearing the cymbal metal that last Nov (prior to my appendix rupture and IV antibiotics course) that I could only hear using the HAs. Now, I am perceiving on this song no difference tonality, I am heaing the cymbals "naked" without HAs in fully glory. But it does sound different with the HAs vs "naked". It is like being more enclosed, with soundstage less wide and instruments more on top of each other. Definitely no longer prefer the HAs on this jazz. I think its taken me time for my ear - brain to understand what I am hearing and what sounds better or more "normal"?

On the other hand, playing "So What?" a Miles Davis tune from Yuko Mabuchi Plays Miles Davis, the highs and cymbal metal seem more pronounced and clear with the HAs, but now I'm thinkin' that the spacing of the sounds that I'm hearing with the HAs engaged is simply more "together" and "enclosed" and thus the higher sounds seem to get more emphasis - whether one likes one or the other better may simply be subjective preference.
My subjective impression is Yuko's piano seems a bit lighter compared to the highs with HAs on - so I just raised the volume a tad and listened without HAs and presto, I seem to have the benefit of the "naked" spacing with "clearer" highs!

My HA evaluation continues for at least the next week including a few concerts.

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post #134 of 142 Old 04-29-2019, 01:18 PM
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Im an audiophile, wearing hearing aids

Just some tips.

Get molded custome ear pieces.

Plug ALL vent tubes with a small dab of silicon. Or you will have zero bass. The bass should Thump, like the movies, if not something is wrong


Self program your aids. Audiologists will never get it right, and they give every excuse to not update the firmware.

Audiologists get the acoustic part spot on, But severely lack in the software setup and screw everything else.

Yiu should be able to hear everything and everyone. If not, your audiologist messed up.

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post #135 of 142 Old 04-30-2019, 09:06 AM
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kthejoker20,

Many interesting points, but I don't believe low freq loss is common.

My low freq is fine, though I did try custom molds to eliminate feedback.

I returned them; I couldn't get used to the feeling that there were big lumps in my ear, plus they were unsightly.

Noah
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post #136 of 142 Old 04-30-2019, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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So in this HA demo I've been to a number of concerts: Spyro Gyra; Christian McBride Big Band; Salt River Brass; and Mike Vax Ron Romm. I've also watched tv/movies and listened to lots of music in my dedicated audiophile home theatre. Bottom line is that yea, unless the HAs really provide benefit pain in butt to wear them poking in your ears (HA!) but more significantly, they haven't improved my sonics. Sound is a bit different with HAs in at least at times. With HAs in the instruments and vocals are maybe squeezed some - still sound great - but a different sound. Until I trained my ear/brain, it was easy to think with HAs in that highs like cymbals were clearer - they weren't, they were simply moved more to the forefront as the image was squeezed some. When something sounds different even a bit its easy to think maybe it sounds better. At first in this demo I thought music in my theatre sounded better - but after listening a bit, I realized the squeeze effect and that e.g. trumpets sound more real and better not "squeezed" in a bit with other instruments but allowed to bloom in more air around them!

What's interesting is that when I first demod HAs last Nov-Dec before my appendix rupture diagnosis and IV antibiotic treatment, the first demo of Phonaks I felt helped me, but the next two demos of Resound and Oticon I felt did nothing for me - much like my current demo of the latest Phonak Marvel model.

Also funny is my first Phonak HAs demo found benefits in noisy restaurants and places. But my current demo doesn't seem to offer hardly any change in such places.

Anyway, the demo HAs are going back and I won't even miss them. This is good. But this doesn't change the fact that as we get older, HAs may well benefit some of us. But at least in my case with "only" mild to moderate hearing loss I have painstakingly determined that HAs at this point in my life offer me no benefit.

I can only surmise that either I am crazy, or that my health is much inproved now after ruptured appendix and weeks of IV antibiotics that even though my current hearing test hasn't changed much from the one last November, that my brain interpretation and functioning and compensation has changed quite positively.
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post #137 of 142 Old 05-04-2019, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Before I took back the Phonak Marvel HAs the other day, I went through each instrumental track of a great hi-rez demo disc with HAs in and out:

https://www.hdtracks.com/audiophile-hi-res-system-test

I heard everything fine without the HAs! NICE! I think I am feeling so much better now than those last few months of 2018; and I have become a better listener and perhaps retrained my brain to pay more attention to sounds like higher frequency instruments than before. And I can even hear some at 12.5 kHz test tone. I noticed that at 10 kHz test tone that it actually seemed louder without the HAs!

I discussed this with my Audiologist. My theory is:

1. I am CRAZY!
2. Even though my recent hearing test is similar to before, I am much healthier now and my ear/brain is processing so much better; and I have trained myself to better discern higher frequencies and placement of sounds than before.
3. #2 but I am still CRAZY!

My Audiologist was simply being nice to me and said she thought #2 was applicable.

Now at 66, I will see the ENT Dr Gonzalez once annually to have my ears cleaned, and see my Audiologist Lainie Hales, Au.D., both at Valley ENT in Mesa also annually to get my hearing retested. I highly recommend both of them! What's really nice is Dr. Hales has recognized all along that I am OCD on this audiophile stuff and she was very interested in all of my feedback on demoing the hearing aids and actually happy for me that my hearing/interpretation of what I hear has so remarkably improved since the last few months of 2018.

And keep in mind I am not TOTALLY CRAZY! The last few months of 2018, without HAs I could only half hear a 8 kHz test tone and nothing at 10 kHz and with HAs I could hear 8 kHz more fully and even 10 kHz maybe at half, nothing beyond. Now without HAs I can hear 8 kHz and 10 kHz clearly and even hear 12.5 kHz partially!

ANd I am so enjoying my recent change of SSPs from Theta Casablanca IVA SSP (had the Theta with upgrades since 1997) to Trinnov Altitude 32, the latter ROON Ready (ethernet) and using Auro-3D (playing stereo using entire multi-channel audio system) I am listening at closer to real concert levels and it sounds so much better than ever that I am having a hard time leaving my audiophile home theatre where I am listening and listening to so much music!
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post #138 of 142 Old 05-07-2019, 06:30 AM
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Really want to read thru this when I get a chance. Posting just to remind me. Looks like valuable information to be had.

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post #139 of 142 Old 05-08-2019, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I don't think treble has much impact in speech intelligibility.

It's not uncommon to have a big midrange notch from using power tools and motorcycles w/o protection - like me.

I have a 25 dB notch centered at 2.5 kHz, which I believe is smack in the range that adds the edges to speech.

My HA's help intelligibility a lot.
Higher frequency does impact speech intelligibility. The problem lies with constanants. f, s, th sounds are greater than 4000 hz. When I get hearing test, aside from the test tones the audiologist will say several words. Things like for, sore, etc to make sure I can distinguish between them.

Quote:
Problems arise with consonants such as “s,” “h,” and “f,” which have higher frequencies and are harder to hear. Since consonants transmit the majority of of the meaning in speech, it’s no wonder that those with high frequency hearing loss have trouble following conversations or TV show plots.

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post #140 of 142 Old 05-08-2019, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glangford View Post
Higher frequency does impact speech intelligibility. The problem lies with constanants. f, s, th sounds are greater than 4000 hz.

Interesting; how much greater, or does up to 4k pretty much cover it?

Noah
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post #141 of 142 Old 05-09-2019, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Interesting; how much greater, or does up to 4k pretty much cover it?
A few go up to around 6k. It's not a coincidence audiologists test only up to 8k.

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post #142 of 142 Old 05-19-2019, 08:46 AM
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I've been following this forum hoping for new insight on the latest HA. I currently have the Starkey CIC which I got at a supposed discount for over $7000. I know I was getting ripped off but you hands are tied and audiologist corner the market much like dentists do with their vastly overpriced crowns where they have a tech who didn't even go to college do most of the work and then they come in for 5-10 minutes play around and go to another room and then bill you $1500. Much like the assembly line cattle-call you get for cataract surgery by ophthalmologists. They work on you for 5 minutes and move to the next patient and continue to do so for a morning where they bill over $30K for a few hours work. No wonderful the system is broken and we pay more then anyone else yet our outcomes pale compared to many other countries overall and I am a physician by the way. That said, getting back to the Starkey, I notice periodic distortion on the mid to upper registers of the keyboard when I listen to Bach's WTC, but overall they sound fine. I still have difficulty distinguishing specific voices in crowds which is a problem with virtually all HA.
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