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post #121 of 195 Old 05-08-2019, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SoCalGuy-99 View Post
Looks like Hollywood's heavy weights feel that if you can beat em - join em - with an all short-form episodic video platform only available on your phone:

Excerpts -

"With backing of billion of dollars from the likes of Disney, Fox, Time Warner, and NBCUniversal, all before writing a line of code or releasing a snippet of video."

"And with talent like Oscar-winning director Guillermo del Toro, Spider-Man director Sam Raimi, Get Out producer Jason Blum, Training Day director Antoine Fuqua, and Twilight director Catherine Hardwicke, along with Justin Timberlake, Zac Efron, Snoop Dogg, Zoe Saldana all developing series for Quibi without signing up a single subscriber yet."

"Run by entertainment-industry execs including Jeffrey Katzenberg, Meg Whitman, Diane Nelson (former president of DC Entertainment), Doug Herzog (former president of Viacom Music and Entertainment), and Juan Bongiovanni (former director of digital marketing at Netflix)."

“We’ll actually create the next chapter of film narrative,” says Katzenberg - “Five or 10 years from now, we’ll look back and go, ‘There was the era of movies, there was the era of television, there was the era of home theater and there’s the era of Quibi."

http://fortune.com/longform/katzenbe...reaming-quibi/
Good luck.
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post #122 of 195 Old 05-08-2019, 06:52 PM
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Here's a video version in case the article was too long and you wanted to watch it on your phone in 5 minutes or less


SCG
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post #123 of 195 Old 05-09-2019, 09:06 AM
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Here's a video version in case the article was too long and you wanted to watch it on your phone in 5 minutes or less

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcDB...25L9zQJTv8BGDP
So celebrity youtube...?


But pretending this is going to be about film and storytelling is quite ridiculous.

Its just going to be an exclusive social media app where normal people can only watch...
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post #124 of 195 Old 05-09-2019, 10:24 AM
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Good luck.

" videos under 10 minutes long ". As if attention spans weren't short enough already. Pass.
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post #125 of 195 Old 05-09-2019, 07:29 PM
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These movies were all shot on iPhones

https://www.pcmag.com/feature/360161...t-on-an-iphone

SCG
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post #126 of 195 Old 05-14-2019, 11:23 AM
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Not sure why the millennial bashing. You can check many articles, financially it's tougher now.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...t-tougher/amp/



I don't know what millenials you are meeting, but there are a lot that love amazing audio/video, are well educated, hardworking, and simply dealing with the financial landscape. Houses are much more expensive than they were, school is more expensive. Have to pay for those things before deciding if upgrade a $2,000 speaker to $10,000 is worth it. On top of it you're not going to build a full blown home theater in a rental.

Leaving that issue aside, as far as video is concerned. Anyone can walk into a best buy, drop $3000 and get better video than 10 years ago without an ounce of work, so no need to discuss.
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post #127 of 195 Old 05-14-2019, 01:26 PM
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It feels like the consensus on here is that projectors are on their way out. I've read it a few times. I don't necessarily disagree.

But what do we think they'll be replaced by?

I guess video walls / larger and larger OLED's is an obvious answer, but what about the audio implications? Phantom center speakers? What about screens larger than 120/130"?

Or perhaps ultra short throw will start to become more and more accessible (and is already easier to accommodate)?

To use a cliché - trying to skate to where the puck is going...

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post #128 of 195 Old 05-14-2019, 01:56 PM
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It feels like the consensus on here is that projectors are on their way out. I've read it a few times. I don't necessarily disagree.

But what do we think they'll be replaced by?

I guess video walls / larger and larger OLED's is an obvious answer, but what about the audio implications? Phantom center speakers? What about screens larger than 120/130"?

Or perhaps ultra short throw will start to become more and more accessible (and is already easier to accommodate)?

To use a cliché - trying to skate to where the puck is going...
Just my 2 cents,but I don't see projectors going away anytime soon. Sure you can get superior PQ with something like OLED or maybe micro led, but the problem is, when your talking big screens say in the 100" and up range a tv no longer makes sense, at least until they get flexible screens you can roll up. That fact is a standard 100" flat screen is to big to transport buy anything other than a shipping company, it certainly isn't going to fit in the bed of your truck very well or at all. Not to mention your reaching a point that with a solid object that size regardless of weight that it would be almost impossible to move into a house unless its a straight shot from an exterior door to the room its going in. Your not moving something that size down hallways and around corners. Personally I think we are going to hit a limit in the 80" to 90" range when it comes to traditional tv's but if you want large format its going to be projectors until something like a tile style video wall is mainstream.
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post #129 of 195 Old 05-15-2019, 12:11 PM
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I believe that projection for high end home theater is nearing the end of it's life cycle. Walls will replace the whole concept with audio adapting to the change. I feel we are a little ways out but I saw a screen wall about 15' wide in LA a couple of weeks ago and it was simply jaw dropping. The cost is an impediment right now for a lot of people but I'm confident this will change.


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post #130 of 195 Old 05-15-2019, 12:18 PM
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I believe that projection for high end home theater is nearing the end of it's life cycle. Walls will replace the whole concept with audio adapting to the change. I feel we are a little ways out but I saw a screen wall about 15' wide in LA a couple of weeks ago and it was simply jaw dropping. The cost is an impediment right now for a lot of people but I'm confident this will change.


Art
Likely true but I just don't know how you get around speakers behind the screen (particularly the center channel)... an absolute must!
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post #131 of 195 Old 05-15-2019, 07:49 PM
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Likely true but I just don't know how you get around speakers behind the screen (particularly the center channel)... an absolute must!
I agree projectors will get phased out over time, but I think there are both a number of technical and financial hurdles that need to be resolved to make projection obsolete. What I fear the unfortunate consequence is we will see projector innovation for the home at most tiers other than the ultra high end that overlaps with commercial cinema technology will continue to slow.

My $0.02.

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post #132 of 195 Old 05-16-2019, 04:20 AM
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I agree projectors will get phased out over time, but I think there are both a number of technical and financial hurdles that need to be resolved to make projection obsolete. What I fear the unfortunate consequence is we will see projector innovation for the home at most tiers other than the ultra high end that overlaps with commercial cinema technology will continue to slow.

My $0.02.

Bryan

Bryan,
You hit the nail on the head.. except I think the R&D even at the top is almost at a standstill as well.

Art
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post #133 of 195 Old 05-16-2019, 04:33 AM
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Because of form factor/transport, weight, crazy cost (not coming down anytime soon), preferred scope ratio, preferred massive screen sizes (12’-16’ wide) preferred behind the screen placement of speakers for most... projectors are not going away in any kind of foreseeable future.
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post #134 of 195 Old 05-16-2019, 04:47 AM
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Because of form factor/transport, weight, crazy cost (not coming down anytime soon), preferred scope ratio, preferred massive screen sizes (12’-16’ wide) preferred behind the screen placement of speakers for most... projectors are not going away in any kind of foreseeable future.
Quite a statement, but "going away" gives you plenty of latitude.

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post #135 of 195 Old 05-16-2019, 05:00 AM
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Quite a statement, but "going away" gives you plenty of latitude.

Art
Sure I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.
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post #136 of 195 Old 05-17-2019, 12:42 PM
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So the one thing that you all haven't discussed is UST projectors.

Doesn't it solve all of the problems raised here?

Firstly, it doesn't prohibit any audio placement.

Secondly, it's easily transported and generally bright enough to work on walls, thus solving the larger size and logistics issue

Thirdly, it's getting lots of RND spend on it and prices are coming down significantly. There's one on Indiegogo currently which is capable of producing a 150" screen for $2500.

Fourthly, it fits neatly and conveniently in the home, without needing expensive re-wiring or ceiling installations. It's also portable.

Fifthly, like projectors, but unlike video walls, they can be discreetly hidden when not in use (retractable screen, no screen at all).

Any reason why UST projectors wont soon match the capability of ceiling/wall mounted projectors? And if they do, aren't they the perfect option to take over this genre?

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post #137 of 195 Old 05-17-2019, 01:20 PM
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Like I said, as far as strict video performance is concerned the only thing right now that can rival them is the Christie Large Venue which is still a prototype, is large ,cumbersome and expensive. I don't think that the throw has almost anything to do with what I'm referring to. Right now 4K HDR performance of any kind is out of reach for projection except with the Christie or a wall. The performance jump isn't subtle.

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post #138 of 195 Old 05-18-2019, 05:28 PM
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I think its one of those cases of "it aint over till it's over". I think the last I checked DVDs were outselling BDs still.
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post #139 of 195 Old 05-19-2019, 06:13 AM
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I think its one of those cases of "it aint over till it's over". I think the last I checked DVDs were outselling BDs still.
No doubt, I don't think we are going to see an abrupt extinction I just believe that we aren't going to see much more money going into R&D for innovation.

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post #140 of 195 Old 05-19-2019, 07:13 AM
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The Sony is four years old and even it was a repurposed pro unit. The primary flaws with the projection technologies are the same ones for nearly a decade, low sequential contrast for DLP and low MTF/ANSI for LCoS (not to mention poor HDR performance due to light output limitations for both). Walls and large panels leap frogged the whole genre. Yes ,right now the largest are very expensive but this is where the R&D is going. The technology Christie showed last year has the potential to change that and would bring panel and wall image quality to projection but the prototype was shown eight months ago now. If this gets released at the top end ultimately it will get into everything below it but it appears to be in a stagnation point of some sort. Meanwhile, dollars are going into walls and bigger and bigger flat panels.

My point is the market for projection, thus the effort there, will diminish ultimately relegated to what will be a lower quality option only. Reminds me of CRT a bit at it's end.Projection has a narrow window of opportunity but it's fading fast IMO.

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post #141 of 195 Old 05-20-2019, 06:43 AM
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The Sony is four years old and even it was a repurposed pro unit. The primary flaws with the projection technologies are the same ones for nearly a decade, low sequential contrast for DLP and low MTF/ANSI for LCoS (not to mention poor HDR performance due to light output limitations for both). Walls and large panels leap frogged the whole genre. Yes ,right now the largest are very expensive but this is where the R&D is going. The technology Christie showed last year has the potential to change that and would bring panel and wall image quality to projection but the prototype was shown eight months ago now. If this gets released at the top end ultimately it will get into everything below it but it appears to be in a stagnation point of some sort. Meanwhile, dollars are going into walls and bigger and bigger flat panels.

My point is the market for projection, thus the effort there, will diminish ultimately relegated to what will be a lower quality option only. Reminds me of CRT a bit at it's end.Projection has a narrow window of opportunity but it's fading fast IMO.

Art

If enough people want to watch enormous screen sizes in lighted rooms then flat panels will continue to take over. If people prefer watching movies in nearly lightless rooms and with a film-like nature with their eyes iris wide open on dark images and simulating the last 100 years of cinema then projectors will stick around.

IMHO we are not about to lose projectors we are about to lose film-like presentations.

I don’t see anyone dialing back the brightness of their “Wall” to 12-15 FL to simulate film. HDR has already imposed a standard that is unrealistic in a lights out projection theater. Most up and coming theater folks are a younger generation that didn’t grow up in theaters without any alternative at home. They now are 100% comfortable watching an epic movie on a cell phone and are attracted to the high brightness of flat panels. So we may be seeing the end of projectors brought on by generational preference and conditioning. To be honest, and I know quite a few young professional people with finances that could purchase “The Wall” in the future and they show little desire. They all seem to be quite content at 60”-70” screen sizes. The ones that would like larger come up against a WAF at anything over those sizes. Building a dedicated room is becoming less a desire as well. So who knows.

I find it a bit sad that things can’t coexist, and in reality I think they will but with projection kind of being what classical music is to rock. Older movies will be better suited for projection and as directors realize most of their market is now in a different direction. Some people will chase after HDR with projectors and others will realize it is part of a new and different presentation of new media.
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post #142 of 195 Old 05-20-2019, 07:27 AM
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Because of form factor/transport, weight, crazy cost (not coming down anytime soon), preferred scope ratio, preferred massive screen sizes (12’-16’ wide) preferred behind the screen placement of speakers for most... projectors are not going away in any kind of foreseeable future.
Let's not forget RPTVs, they were massive, heavy objects in our living rooms:
2003 - Mitsubishi WL-82913 80-inch, 515 pounds
2004 - Sony Qualia 006 70-inch 273 pounds
2011 - Mitsubishi WD-92840 92-Inch, 194 pounds

I'm not sure that the consumers will avoid to buy a 100" OLED TV, even if it is a large, fragile or heavy beast...
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post #143 of 195 Old 05-20-2019, 04:14 PM
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If enough people want to watch enormous screen sizes in lighted rooms then flat panels will continue to take over. If people prefer watching movies in nearly lightless rooms and with a film-like nature with their eyes iris wide open on dark images and simulating the last 100 years of cinema then projectors will stick around.
I think the engaging nature of a massive screen in a dark room with all other distraction gone has it's place a place that I love personally but I think those who feel that way are like any other dinosaur and is becoming a more rare creature. Those of us who remember the single screen theaters that would show one film over and over at times for months know about this feeling and it means more to us. When you go into your theater do you bring your phone to check texts etc., not me (with the exception I'm communication with one of the folks who set up my theater and I need their advice).

I'm personally hanging on to those times and get just as much or more pleasure than ever from my room but the handwriting is on the wall (pun intended).

Art
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post #144 of 195 Old 05-20-2019, 04:14 PM
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If enough people want to watch enormous screen sizes in lighted rooms then flat panels will continue to take over. If people prefer watching movies in nearly lightless rooms and with a film-like nature with their eyes iris wide open on dark images and simulating the last 100 years of cinema then projectors will stick around.
I think the engaging nature of a massive screen in a dark room with all other distraction gone has it's place a place that I love personally but I think those who feel that way are like any other dinosaur and are becoming more rare creatures. Those of us who remember the single screen theaters that would show one film over and over at times for months know about this feeling and it means more to us. When you go into your theater do you bring your phone to check texts etc., not me (with the exception of when I'm communication with one of the folks who set up my theater and I need their advice).

I'm personally hanging on to those times and get just as much or more pleasure than ever from my room but the handwriting is on the wall (pun intended).

Art
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post #145 of 195 Old 05-20-2019, 04:32 PM
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Let's not forget RPTVs, they were massive, heavy objects in our living rooms:
2003 - Mitsubishi WL-82913 80-inch, 515 pounds
2004 - Sony Qualia 006 70-inch 273 pounds
2011 - Mitsubishi WD-92840 92-Inch, 194 pounds

I'm not sure that the consumers will avoid to buy a 100" OLED TV, even if it is a large, fragile or heavy beast...
How many Sony 98” diagonal Z9G will sell at a cost of 70k? Not many. If an Oled was 98” it would cost a fortune. Regardless, can you imagine the cost and weight of 14’ wide scope ratio Oled or Z9G if it was even feasible to produce? It would be priced in the stratospheric. Would I trade my Sony 5000 projector on a 14’ wide scope ST100 screen for a 10’ wide Oled? Nope, not a chance. Size is incredibly important for immersion which is my #1 criteria, along with many others factors that follow. 100” diagonal 16x9 fixed TVs might become more mainstream in small home cinemas or larger multipurpose rooms with time as prices drop, but I don’t t believe they will compete in the dedicated theater market for true cinematic presentations.

My theater is one where I have direct access where a massive fixed panel could physically be transported into position. It is designed in such a way where speakers could also be placed to the left/right and beneath my screen. I am just not confident that a fixed display will be in my future for the above reasons. Not practical to make, ship, mount or pay for.

Looking at cost vs impact approach: a 10k BenQ laser projector can light up a very large screen. The fixed display can not compete relative to affordable cost and size impact that can be achieved with a projector. The price of a large fixed display now and for many years to come would price 99.9% of the buyers out of the market. There is $ still to be made in the projector arena. With competition brings performance gains, and competitive pricing. Last year’s Sonk 15k projector is now under 10k. Commercial applications with unbelievably deep pockets will have some use for massive fixed displays. It will be a long time for such screens to make into home theaters. Projectors will continue to evolve technologically.

Art, we both may be very old when we are mounting a fixed displays onto our theater walls. I will not sacrifice my large screen theater experience for a smaller fixed display anytime soon. To go even 100” wide would remove the theater experience, which is why I also think dedicated theaters will continue in homes, along with front projectors.

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post #146 of 195 Old 05-20-2019, 05:07 PM
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The movie industry is making money by attracting the public to large dark rooms with massive screens. Until movie delivery changes for the public, high end home theater will always have its place. Projection may go some day (like all technologies) but the high end room will still have its appeal as long as America likes going to the movies.
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #147 of 195 Old 05-20-2019, 05:14 PM
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No doubt, I don't think we are going to see an abrupt extinction I just believe that we aren't going to see much more money going into R&D for innovation.

Art
Indeed. At this point most companies/manufacturers have a pretty damn good product and will more then likely just make incremental improvements each year. Fun to set back and watch it unfold.

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post #148 of 195 Old 05-20-2019, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Reddig View Post
Indeed. At this point most companies/manufacturers have a pretty damn good product and will more then likely just make incremental improvements each year. Fun to set back and watch it unfold.
I agree with this. The bleeding edge is significantly more expensive than "proletariat level" projection but with a modest sized screen a projector like the 4-figure Epson LS10000/10500 throws a superb image, as do the Sony and JVC offerings. May not be good enough for the hardcore videophile but good enough for semi-fussy viewers.
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post #149 of 195 Old 05-20-2019, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
How many Sony 98” diagonal Z9G will sell at a cost of 70k? Not many.
The real question to ask is, for each >80-90" flat screen sold, how many projectors are sold?
In 10 years from now, what TV diagonal will be most sold?
Do you think that beyond a specific diagonal (let's say >90/100"), projectors will overtake TVs in the average home?

The RPTV example is proof that people will pay for a flat/wall screen, even if it is very expensive, large, heavy, and power hungry.
The actual trend, of ever larger and ever expensive flat/wall screens (LCD/OLED/whatever), is another proof that people clamor not for projectors, but for something else.
Projectors have their place in the world, for sure, but flat/wall screens will corner them as years go by.
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post #150 of 195 Old 05-21-2019, 06:17 AM
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My point isn't that people won't have projectors , nor is it that there will still be people like me who have a room that replicates an experience like an old commercial theater but updated. My point is that those who want that is a shrinking number and it will continue on that path. I think experiences more like what Lasalle has done except using a wall will be more the norm for large displays. More a mixed use room with seating for movies ,concerts or sports but doesn't have to be a cave.


Personally this is not my preference but ,as I said, I just don't believe that with displays like I saw in LA compared to what I have in the same room I can't imagine many choosing projection.


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