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post #151 of 207 Old 05-21-2019, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
My point isn't that people won't have projectors , nor is it that there will still be people like me who have a room that replicates an experience like an old commercial theater but updated. My point is that those who want that is a shrinking number and it will continue on that path. I think experiences more like what Lasalle has done except using a wall will be more the norm for large displays. More a mixed use room with seating for movies ,concerts or sports but doesn't have to be a cave.


Personally this is not my preference but ,as I said, I just don't believe that with displays like I saw in LA compared to what I have in the same room I can't imagine many choosing projection.


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Yes, this is exactly my approach. I think the appeal for cinema reproduction is nostalgia, whereas appreciation for good content is universal. An environment which is more accessible and sociable combined with the ability to reproduce good content is exactly where most people are at.

I've had to darken the home theater area of my multi-use space because of the limitations of projectors. And probably a little bit to get that 'floating image' feel. But in my initial plan, it would have been more like a living room. I had no ambition whatsoever to make it feel retro like a classic cinema. I think my viewpoint is increasingly prevalent among millennials.

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post #152 of 207 Old 05-21-2019, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
My point isn't that people won't have projectors , nor is it that there will still be people like me who have a room that replicates an experience like an old commercial theater but updated. My point is that those who want that is a shrinking number and it will continue on that path. I think experiences more like what Lasalle has done except using a wall will be more the norm for large displays. More a mixed use room with seating for movies ,concerts or sports but doesn't have to be a cave.


Personally this is not my preference but ,as I said, I just don't believe that with displays like I saw in LA compared to what I have in the same room I can't imagine many choosing projection.


Art
This may be true for many, however having 95+ square feet of untreated glass covering the front sound stage seriously impacts the sonic quality and balance of the experance. Those who put a premium on SQ will have a tough time going that route. Some of the new projector technologies have initially been a step backwards in Contrast and Color, I believe those areas will be signifanty improved over time. Maybe not to the CLDIS standard but good enough to get solid HDR and P3++ performance while allowing starte of the art SQ.
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post #153 of 207 Old 05-21-2019, 08:18 AM
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In the 60’s we went to the movies to see something cutting edge and something maybe only a hand full of multi millionaires (mostly moviemakers) could have in their homes. Today we (at least me) go to the movies as an attempt at remembering the nostalgic experience of the 50-60s. Almost everyone in this country can now get an adequate experience at home on their 40-70” TV sets. The real only major driver is people needing to see the movie as soon as it is released and that gets them in the theater, and of course there are some people that are drawn to the nostalgic idea of going out on a date with dinner and a movie or some other nostalgic idea. If you quizzed people and asked how many movies do you watch in a commercial theater vs at home on netflix etc on TV you will find the strong preference for the cheap method at home.

That’s why I say it is generational. As a kid we would do 20 movies a summer at drive in movies. Now there is one left within 100 miles of me and people go to it for nostalgia and to show their kids what it was like. The kids see it as lame, and play on their phones in the back seat.
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post #154 of 207 Old 05-22-2019, 07:00 AM
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This may be true for many, however having 95+ square feet of untreated glass covering the front sound stage seriously impacts the sonic quality and balance of the experance. Those who put a premium on SQ will have a tough time going that route.
Even if the huge flat screen will pose some problems with room treatments, that will not deter people to buy flat screens, and I am pretty sure that they will not opt for projectors because of some more work for room treatments and speakers placement.

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post #155 of 207 Old 05-22-2019, 07:27 AM
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Even if the huge flat screen will pose some problems with room treatments, that will not deter people to buy flat screens, and I am pretty sure that they will not opt for projectors because of some more work for room treatments and speakers placement.
Like I said that may be true for many, but you will never get 100 SQFT of glass centered on the front sound stage (and completely untreated because you need to see it) to sound as good as a well treatred room with an AT screen. If you don't demand SOTA sound then that may be fine for you. For those seeking the best sound the question will become which is the bigger trade off, degraded SQ or PQ. For me the SIM2 Duo is close enough to OLED PQ that I would not replace it even with a CLDIS and suffer the degraded SQ.
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post #156 of 207 Old 05-22-2019, 07:36 AM
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Like I said that may be true for many, but you will never get 100 SQFT of glass centered on the front sound stage (and completely untreated because you need to see it) to sound as good as a well treatred room with an AT screen. If you don't demand SOTA sound then that may be fine for you. For those seeking the best sound the question will become which is the bigger trade off, degraded SQ or PQ. For me the SIM2 Duo is close enough to OLED PQ that I would not replace it even with a CLDIS and suffer the degraded SQ.
People compromise every day. A huge flat screen is a compromise, and projectors are also a compromise. You can't please everyone. But the trend is not in favor of projectors.
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post #157 of 207 Old 05-22-2019, 08:18 AM
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People compromise every day. A huge flat screen is a compromise, and projectors are also a compromise. You can't please everyone. But the trend is not in favor of projectors.
I would agree on the trend, especially in the broader market. I'm less pessimistic on future advances in projector PQ (specifically in color and contrast).
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post #158 of 207 Old 05-22-2019, 10:01 AM
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The one constant in displays of all types from the day Edison first made something move on a screen till today is human vision. Our eyes and how we process vision isn’t evolving to take in more and more data. Edison’s first film was pretty poor when compared to reality. Today we are not yet to reality but the gap is closing fast and I might add the point for most people as what is good enough has been achieved for quite some time in all the technologies.

I don’t think projector companies have to worry all that much about greater performance to suit most and with cost dropping new markets are being exposed every day. It might not make someone searching for the elusive 8k, million to one CR, with full 100% color gamut with full HDR and that will work with a magic 180” screen in a lighted living room. But for every person seeking that there are 1000s that are happy to have sub 1500 4k or sub 700 1080p they can setup in the basement man cave and enjoy a 120” more than good enough show. These folks are comparing flat panels to projection but much smaller flat panels in their price range.

Most of us here have been in this hobby for close to 20 years now and watched the tech grow and improve. It was way out of many peoples price range for some of that time. For the last few years it has really got to the point anyone that wants it can have a 120” image at home that will be pretty amazing looking for not a lot of money. I see a lot of people that have had a home theater dream for a long time now jumping in. Many are not even using the forums they are just doing it.

Low-end volume will push high-end improvements. IMO.
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post #159 of 207 Old 05-25-2019, 06:12 AM
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Will screen walls replace projectors? Most likely - but not in my lifetime. I continue to reference the initial 40" flat panel that cost ~$20,000 that today you can buy today at <$200. Screen walls will probably do the same but they have MUCH further to fall in price.

And we must not forget what a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny portion of the home display market we projection fans are. The "masses" are perfectly happy with a large flat panel (65" plus) and either the TV speakers or a sound bar. And in those "masses" are folks who have way more than enough expendable income to afford much better. But they just don't care. And the HT company I am most familiar with are building fewer and and fewer "dedicated" spaces.

So, for those of use who want the larger and best image possible AND the attendant sound quality that goes with it, projectors are the only answer, their inherent limitations notwithstanding. And will be for a long time!!
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post #160 of 207 Old 05-25-2019, 09:09 AM
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Once fold-able TVs are a thing the faster the full wall TV will be. Shipping big tvs is cost prohibitive and impossible to get into smaller houses.
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post #161 of 207 Old 05-26-2019, 05:53 AM
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So, for those of use who want the larger and best image possible AND the attendant sound quality that goes with it, projectors are the only answer, their inherent limitations notwithstanding. And will be for a long time!!

At first glance this statement appears to be true but should read.. "Those of us who want the best possible audio must accept projectors and their inherent limitations as our only option". Since we know projectors don't even provide the best possible image now. If they did, we wouldn't need this discussion

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post #162 of 207 Old 06-04-2019, 09:27 AM
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I consider myself to have a pretty good setup. Most people that come to my place for a movie don't want to leave and have never seen anything like it. Problem is, they would never want to pay for it as they say. They love watching movies but spending that type of money is far from priority. There's also interest. I have a 24 year old son that hardly ever uses it and he loves movies. Him and his friends are content with a 50" or so. They see movies as a one time watch and disposable since there are so many made today.

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post #163 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 05:17 AM
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I consider myself to have a pretty good setup. Most people that come to my place for a movie don't want to leave and have never seen anything like it. Problem is, they would never want to pay for it as they say. They love watching movies but spending that type of money is far from priority. There's also interest. I have a 24 year old son that hardly ever uses it and he loves movies. Him and his friends are content with a 50" or so. They see movies as a one time watch and disposable since there are so many made today.
I agree. I have been doing an unofficial survey and lots of observations of trends with different age groups. Myself being in my 60s grew up in the age of collections. Started in grade school collecting music on records 45s and then LP. You had a collection and your collection was different than everyone else. You listened to some of it over and over. Then there was the collection of the equipment to play it back and the two combined into a hobby. Sure you could turn on the radio and hear the same things for free but it wasn’t the same. Then came reel to reel and you could take others records and copy them make longer playing tapes and mixes. The idea of collecting grew. That gave way to movies and VHS and the collecting went on and at the same time actual theater experiences were still the best way and the grandest way to see a movie. We still collected and it went to DVD and BD.

The young people our kids and grandkids were entertained in a different way. There was the HBO age and now it is the streaming age. Collections went from racks of LPs to racks of CDs to files of music stored on a iPod or a smart phone that wasn’t tangible to now why make the effort to save anything it’s all at ask Alexa away on the internet. The new generation are not collectors of media and it is consumption not hobby any longer. They don’t have a tie to cinema. The smart phone is where their media reality lives and TV sets are just large smart phones for sharing media with others.

Honestly when I have a lot of 20s-30s to watch something in the theater with FP they have been watching FP in school their whole lives. There is no mystique to FP and they don’t find it any more engaging than a good 60” TV with a sound bar. Most young professional people don’t even own a BD player or a single disc. They just stream it all when they want it.

They look at my room as nice and all and enjoyment but they don’t get going to this extreme with racks of equipment and sitting in the dark to watch a movie they could start watching on the iPhone and finish watching on the TV. Not to mention the expense involved in what I have.
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post #164 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 05:57 AM
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Honestly when I have a lot of 20s-30s to watch something in the theater with FP they have been watching FP in school their whole lives. There is no mystique to FP and they don’t find it any more engaging than a good 60” TV with a sound bar.
My experience is similar but vastly different in regards to the above. EVERYONE of any age who experiences the audio and video in my theater always comments about how much better it is than any theater or home watching experience they have ever had. And it is.

BUT, virtually NONE have expressed any interest in building a similar experience in their own home. The age group you refer to has a bazillion more options for entertainment and hobbies than we did when growing up. We had music and a few TV stations and, playing games inside or outside, and sports, and stamp collecting and a few other things. We "grew into" the theaters we have built.

They have computers, the internet, iPads and iPods, and video streaming and audio streaming and youtube and video games and 300 TV channels and cheerleading camp, and ............... .

They have so many more options on which to spend their time and money, dedicated home theaters just don't rate very high on their things to have - or more specifically, they are not even on the list.
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post #165 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 06:14 AM
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My experience is similar but vastly different in regards to the above. EVERYONE of any age who experiences the audio and video in my theater always comments about how much better it is than any theater or home watching experience they have ever had. And it is.

BUT, virtually NONE have expressed any interest in building a similar experience in their own home. The age group you refer to has a bazillion more options for entertainment and hobbies than we did when growing up. We had music and a few TV stations and, playing games inside or outside, and sports, and stamp collecting and a few other things. We "grew into" the theaters we have built.

They have computers, the internet, iPads and iPods, and video streaming and audio streaming and youtube and video games and 300 TV channels and cheerleading camp, and ............... .

They have so many more options on which to spend their time and money, dedicated home theaters just don't rate very high on their things to have - or more specifically, they are not even on the list.
You are correct. People also love watching movies in our theater of all age groups. It is a treat and they do seem to like coming back for more. The free food and drinks I’m sure doesn’t hurt as well. My point was more FP doesn’t hold the mystery it once did and as talked about in many threads here this generation will embrace larger flat panel options as they come out without hesitation if the price is right.

I have heard a 100 times from guests of all ages after watching a movie at our place that they are going home and build their own theater. I tell them how happy that makes me hearing that and I will be willing to help them plan and purchase equipment and even build out the room itself. So far only one person an older friend has made an attempt at doing it.

It is true of more than just HT with all the choices there are today and what is trending. I hear a lot of young people with dreams of owning a Tesla car. Low on my list.

Ask any of your young friends to show you their collections of video or audio and see the look you will get.
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post #166 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 06:17 AM
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Ask any of your young friends to show you their collections of video or audio and see the look you will get.
There a few exceptions, but that age group has no interest in anything but streaming -and, actually, not just that age group. Eventually, the ability to purchase a shiny disc of movies or music be no longer be an option.
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post #167 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 06:41 AM
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One thing in common that I see in the above posts is that people enjoy it when they come over and experience it, and they really do. I always get the comment that they have never seen anything like it in a home. It's like they never knew you could do that in the first place. When they start asking how much something like this costs, I lose them totally. I explain that you can have different price ranges, but they still don't want to spend too much money just to watch movies. People just put their money elsewhere like trips etc. now a days. Going on trips isn't my thing, so easy pass for me.

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post #168 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 07:19 AM
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This issue is not just about the 20 to 30 year old age group.

I have LOTS of friends at, near or over my age who have way more disposable income than I do who would never consider building a dedicated or semi-dedicated space for a theater. Spending time on forums like AVS really does distort our sense of how large the population is that even has such a space. It is a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny percent of the 128 million US households. My best guesstimate is that MAYBE 1/10th to 1/20th of 1% of US households have anything close to what we have. For those that are mathematically challenged, that is somewhere between ~60,000 and ~120,000 homes.

Even for those that could easily afford such an expense, the overwhelming majority may have several reasonably large flat panels and maybe a sound bar ... maybe - and are perfectly fine with just that.

In the last 30 years, in all of my personal and business dealings (excluding those I have met through AVS or similar forums), I have met exactly 3 who have any kind of theater -and one of my businesses was focused on homeowners where the minimum home price was $600,000.

We are a passionate but very small group of enthusiasts.
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post #169 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 07:50 AM
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Audioguy,

Chuck, I can say that at 74 years old tomorrow and all the years I have had my HT through all it's many-many-many changes.
I don't know of one other person through all my years that has anything even remotely like mine.
In-fact, I don't know of anyone at all that even has a HT period.
Everyone I know has some size flat screen and then a few of them have the soundbar and then a few of them have the small remote wireless Sub-woofer.

Here is an example of cost ..............
We purchased new Cathy's VW Golf R in 2017 and it was $41,600.00 or so.
The JVC RS4500 at Retail when introduced was $35,000.00 thousand dollars plus tax, installation, professional calibration.
(And keep in mind that's not the cost of the Stewart Firehawk 1.35 Gain, 16x9, 123" W/4-way remote masking screen)
And taking it a step up the Sony ES5000 was $60,000.00 thousand dollars and all the rest I listed above ^^^
The above is just for a projector and nothing else.
It is no surprise to me at all that I have never ever met anyone that has anything remotely like my HT.

And if we were to be really serious and honest with each other ???
Who in the world would spend what guys like us have and the ONLY use for the HT is for exactly what it was built for, watching something.
Makes one wonder sometimes who really is/was smarter ???
The person with a new, say, 60" flat screen with a nice soundbar and subwoofer or us.

Terry

Keep in mind guys I'm not referring to AVS members ...
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post #170 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 10:42 AM
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Audioguy,

Chuck, I can say that at 74 years old tomorrow and all the years I have had my HT through all it's many-many-many changes.
I don't know of one other person through all my years that has anything even remotely like mine.
In-fact, I don't know of anyone at all that even has a HT period.
Everyone I know has some size flat screen and then a few of them have the soundbar and then a few of them have the small remote wireless Sub-woofer.

Here is an example of cost ..............
We purchased new Cathy's VW Golf R in 2017 and it was $41,600.00 or so.
The JVC RS4500 at Retail when introduced was $35,000.00 thousand dollars plus tax, installation, professional calibration.
(And keep in mind that's not the cost of the Stewart Firehawk 1.35 Gain, 16x9, 123" W/4-way remote masking screen)
And taking it a step up the Sony ES5000 was $60,000.00 thousand dollars and all the rest I listed above ^^^
The above is just for a projector and nothing else.
It is no surprise to me at all that I have never ever met anyone that has anything remotely like my HT.

And if we were to be really serious and honest with each other ???
Who in the world would spend what guys like us have and the ONLY use for the HT is for exactly what it was built for, watching something.
Makes one wonder sometimes who really is/was smarter ???
The person with a new, say, 60" flat screen with a nice soundbar and subwoofer or us.

Terry

Keep in mind guys I'm not referring to AVS members ...
It's all a matter of one's hobby and tastes. I know people that will spend crazy amounts on cars or recreational vehicles and that's not my thing, just like HT is not their thing. Others will make 3 trips in a year that will cost them about $15k-$20k in total and don't have something physical to show for it. Again, not my thing. Most people like or even love movies, just not to the extent we do to go out of our ways and replicate a theatrical experience. They couldn't be bothered.
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post #171 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 10:50 AM
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As someone who also has a dedicated room for our home theater...I can tell you it's like a pool to most ppl. They love the idea of a pool, they love coming over and swimming in your pool and they admire how nice it is to have a pool....but do they personally want a pool? Not really...


We are selling our house right now. Besides not having a big backyard....the second strike against a purchase is the dedicated HT (we left the windows framed out, but sheetrocked over them-not too expensive to convert back)....they really would prefer to convert the home theater to a family room or into the 4th bedroom. I've set up demo's for those that come back for a second visit. I leave a great example of sports (good dvr recording of a KC Chiefs game) on during visits and open houses....the report back is potential buyers LOVED the room, but would prefer to convert it back to a bedroom etc.
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post #172 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 02:33 PM
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We are selling our house right now. Besides not having a big backyard....the second strike against a purchase is the dedicated HT (we left the windows framed out, but sheetrocked over them-not too expensive to convert back)....they really would prefer to convert the home theater to a family room or into the 4th bedroom. I've set up demo's for those that come back for a second visit. I leave a great example of sports (good dvr recording of a KC Chiefs game) on during visits and open houses....the report back is potential buyers LOVED the room, but would prefer to convert it back to a bedroom etc.
I worry about that as well. If I lived in a neighborhood of $800K houses, I might be less worried. I would NEVER leave my current equipment in this house (equipment MSRP has too many commas and zeros) but I would replace it with something much, much less costly. My guess would be that the Realtors would want it converted back to the original 27' x 19' x 8' room with 3 windows (and probably stick a large TV and seating area for purposes of showing/staging the house. THAT conversion back to the original space would probably cost > $10K!!
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post #173 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 02:55 PM
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I worry about that as well. If I lived in a neighborhood of $800K houses, I might be less worried. I would NEVER leave my current equipment in this house (equipment MSRP has too many commas and zeros) but I would replace it with something much, much less costly. My guess would be that the Realtors would want it converted back to the original 27' x 19' x 8' room with 3 windows (and probably stick a large TV and seating area for purposes of showing/staging the house. THAT conversion back to the original space would probably cost > $10K!!
Our block has homes (current market) from the Mid-500K to 1.3 million depending on the market. We are slightly down from previous comparables. The bid we got to just put the windows back in and drywall was around 7k. To get the white glove treatment and plaster all the holes (in ceiling speakers etc etc), repaint, carpet, remove platform, new ceiling fan and lights...it was another 8k.

You could certainly fine cheaper, but we wanted to understand the cost of a company that was established and would be in the middle to higher end of the bid range.
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post #174 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 03:15 PM
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...My guess would be that the Realtors would want it converted back to the original 27' x 19' x 8' room with 3 windows (and probably stick a large TV and seating area for purposes of showing/staging the house. THAT conversion back to the original space would probably cost > $10K!!
Ask Stu Drucker about his family's move from one downtown high-rise Chicago luxury condo to larger one. Their realtor insisted he dismantle & remove the bulk of his AV setup, leaving just the flat panel plus hide all shiny discs. This might have been pre-Trinnov or just after his getting it. I don't think he had his PJ setup then, but still a big inconvenience until they made the move & he could start all over.

I'd have to literally re-do the sheetrock (drywall to northerners ) since all the cable raceway & acoustic treatments would have to come off which means rips & tears on walls. Plus patching all the holes, cutouts I've drilled & sawed over 25 yrs installing cables/speakers, diffusers & gear, remove all cables, wiring etc.

This is my recurring nightmare & argument every time the wife suggests moving to a "retirement" community, downsizing or moving to another state -- Gee honey, I'd take me a year & $$$ just to get the room normalized and we'd have to budget $50K+ for a new room because I'm not spending 5 yrs of my life on my hands & knees doing this again!...so far, it's worked I'm 69 so don't have the luxury of another long-term DIY dedicated room. If we moved, it's contractor time, baby. And finding a knowledgeable contractor-installer who would build & cable it correctly to my specs vs. building an add-on room or finished basement. Lots to think about when one is this deep into the hobby! The iphone, flat panel & soundbar folks don't have these kind of issues

I don't have a custom HT room, call mine a dedicated AV media room but adding in the Trinnov, I estimate I have close to $100K in gear, speakers, subs, cables & accessories in that room - way beyond the normal household. We too have had family & guests who are wow'd by it but none would consider putting that kind of money & effort in movies or music. I gave our financial advisor & his wife a 4K Atmos demo when they came for our annual review - he sat mesmorized but admitted they only had a ~43" or so TV & not even a soundbar in their home; and I know he can afford it! Different priorities in life. We hard-core enthusiasts are a very small minority of a very small minority.

Steve

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post #175 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 04:42 PM
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My theater has spawned off 4 dedicated theaters of family and friends. Front projectors, acoustically treated walls with fabric, movie props and all... I figured mission accomplished to spread the word re the benefits of dedicated home theaters.

I believe that if a dedicated theater has taken over a customary room on main/ground floor or on the second floor (i.e. a living room, dining room, main family room, or a bedroom) it might be trouble in that some prospective owners will want the room converted back. If the theater is in the basement or in a non-taken over bonus room, then the buyer has “lost” nothing, but has gained. I am fortunate that my theater is on the main floor in a bonus room. If a buyer someday wants it converted back, I will simply say “move along please, nothing to see here”. The theaters that have been built as a result of my theater have been either in a bonus room (2) or in the basement. I also believe the higher end the home, and the more custom it is, the more a dedicated theater may be accepted.

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post #176 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 05:11 PM
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This issue is not just about the 20 to 30 year old age group.

Spending time on forums like AVS really does distort our sense of how large the population is that even has such a space. It is a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny percent of the 128 million US households. My best guesstimate is that MAYBE 1/10th to 1/20th of 1% of US households have anything close to what we have.

We have succeeded in making this over crowded world seem a little smaller!


In my early 60's, I'm resigned to what floats my boat.

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post #177 of 207 Old 06-06-2019, 05:13 PM
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Audioguy,

Chuck, I can say that at 74 years old tomorrow and all the years I have had my HT through all it's many-many-many changes.
...

Happy Birthday Terry!
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See ya. Dave

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post #178 of 207 Old 06-07-2019, 06:27 AM
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Spending time on forums like AVS really does distort our sense of how large the population is that even has such a space. It is a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny percent of the 128 million US households.

We are a passionate but very small group of enthusiasts.
This is so true and shrinking. I agree with others ,with me, few guests aren't impressed and enjoy watching a movie in my room but unless they are invited from AVS essentially none want one. I had a home theater meet here about a year ago, one member said that I'd get a thousand people to come if I made it an open invitation but this just wasn't the case.

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post #179 of 207 Old 06-07-2019, 08:48 AM
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Happy Birthday Terry!
Jive Turkey,

Well who would have ever guessed I'd get a Birthday greeting on this thread ???

Anyway, I thank-you kind Sir and in my case I did get a nice to me Birthday Gift from my wife (Cathy).



A new Audi RS3 I just took delivery of a few weeks ago.








Terry
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