Official Sony VPL-VW995ES/870ES 4K Laser Owner’s Discussion - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 1081 Old 03-19-2019, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by kaaga View Post
I make correction to my previous post. Laser/Overdrive must be turned from 0->1 to get the effect, so this means it must be turned "On" (not off). Default is 0 "Off".
I will check on my 760 tomorrow for these settings. Interesting find!

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post #452 of 1081 Old 03-19-2019, 05:15 PM
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Decided to look now, and options 223 and 226 are not present at all on the 760.
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post #453 of 1081 Old 03-19-2019, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Whilst I don't doubt any of what you said, to pay another 15-18k for it is foolish and won't yield enough if a difference to be worth the amount.
Buying an 870 without having already bought a 760 is a different matter however.



Absolutely correct. When you weigh the difference between the 870 and 760, they are no where near 15-18k in price difference compared to visual differences. You would be unwise to make that move.
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post #454 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Decided to look now, and options 223 and 226 are not present at all on the 760.
On VW870 it's below section "Other".
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post #455 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by kaaga View Post
I played around settings in service menu and I found something interesting:
There are two options:
• 223 Laser/Overdrive
• 226 Laser/LASER IRIS D SW (enables/disables iris)

When I turn On (0->1) Laser/Overdrive the laser level drops and I will get noticeable increased blacks and much better black floor.
What is interesting is that the lower the laser light output level slider - the bigger is the impact.
When turning laser level output to 0 and turning On Overdrive there is huge difference. Opposite with laser output level at full (100), there seems to be no difference in brightness.
Huge difference in black floor (also decrease of brightness in stars& spaceship) can be tested with famous Interstellar starfield scene or full black screen with one white pixel. (then laser will not shut off) The lower the laser output level the bigger the impact. (when overdrive is turned On)

Laser light output level slider has been in vw760 and 870 very subtle. Seems if to turn On Laser/overdrive it makes Laser slider a lot more aggressive without losing max brightness at level 100. I don’t have light meter so I cannot measure it exactly.

Can someone else test this and maybe knows more what the Laser/Overdrive option is doing?
Also, can VW760 owners look that is this option also present in VW760 or it is only in 870ES?
Wow 223 sounds like it could be a game changer. Pretty awesome! Now I want to see a 995ES with this feature enabled. @Kris Deering do you still have that 995ES handy and can you try out setting #223 ?
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post #456 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 04:39 AM
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Absolutely correct. When you weigh the difference between the 870 and 760, they are no where near 15-18k in price difference compared to visual differences.
The upgrade is "just" 10k on the list price... If you get a good deal on a new one it is way less. Archie was referring to sell his unit and estimated it would cost him extra 15-18k to buy an 870ES. Which I think is still quite exaggerated...
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post #457 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 04:43 AM
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When turning laser level output to 0 and turning On Overdrive there is huge difference. Opposite with laser output level at full (100), there seems to be no difference in brightness.
Huge difference in black floor (also decrease of brightness in stars& spaceship) can be tested with famous Interstellar starfield scene or full black screen with one white pixel. (then laser will not shut off) The lower the laser output level the bigger the impact. (when overdrive is turned On)
I like the idea of the increased black floor but why would I want the stars to decrease in brightness?
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post #458 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by kaaga View Post
On VW870 it's below section "Other".
Yup, that is where I was looking.

The options mentioned are missing.

Shucks.

Give me an 870 Firmware so I can hack the cr*p out of it. SOMEONE.

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post #459 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 04:52 AM
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Yup, that is where I was looking.

The options mentioned are missing.

Shucks.

Give me an 870 Firmware so I can hack the cr*p out of it. SOMEONE.
That´s odd isn´t it? One would assume that firmwares would be almost identical....
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post #460 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaaga View Post
I played around settings in service menu and I found something interesting:
There are two options:
• 223 Laser/Overdrive
• 226 Laser/LASER IRIS D SW (enables/disables iris)

When I turn On (0->1) Laser/Overdrive the laser level drops and I will get noticeable increased blacks and much better black floor.
What is interesting is that the lower the laser light output level slider - the bigger is the impact.
When turning laser level output to 0 and turning On Overdrive there is huge difference. Opposite with laser output level at full (100), there seems to be no difference in brightness.
Huge difference in black floor (also decrease of brightness in stars& spaceship) can be tested with famous Interstellar starfield scene or full black screen with one white pixel. (then laser will not shut off) The lower the laser output level the bigger the impact. (when overdrive is turned On)

Laser light output level slider has been in vw760 and 870 very subtle. Seems if to turn On Laser/overdrive it makes Laser slider a lot more aggressive without losing max brightness at level 100. I don’t have light meter so I cannot measure it exactly.

Can someone else test this and maybe knows more what the Laser/Overdrive option is doing?
Also, can VW760 owners look that is this option also present in VW760 or it is only in 870ES?
Wow 223 sounds like it could be a game changer. Pretty awesome! Now I want to see a 995ES with this feature enabled. @Kris Deering do you still have that 995ES handy and can you try out setting #223 ?
Yes. Still have 885 and 995 here. Will definitely take a look when I get back from travel. Heading to NYC for Value Electronics event and some calibration work.
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post #461 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:05 AM
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I had a chance to view both the 885es, last Nov. and the 995es 2 weeks ago and from memory, which I know isn't that reliable, there was to me a big difference in sharpness even from my 15' seating position. It also seemed brighter and blacks, a little bit better. It wasn't calibrated, and again, 4 months time between makes the comparison is not 100% reliable like a side by side, but I do have really good memory when it comes to video from a projector. The sharpness in the unit I had was noticeably sharper. I wasn't the only one who noticed the sharpness. BUT I get not wanting to throw more money into a projector, where you may not notice a big enough difference.
If you can actually spot differences in sharpness from that distance you must have eagle eyes!

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post #462 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by kaaga View Post
I played around settings in service menu and I found something interesting:
There are two options:
• 223 Laser/Overdrive
• 226 Laser/LASER IRIS D SW (enables/disables iris)

When I turn On (0->1) Laser/Overdrive the laser level drops and I will get noticeable increased blacks and much better black floor.
What is interesting is that the lower the laser light output level slider - the bigger is the impact.
When turning laser level output to 0 and turning On Overdrive there is huge difference. Opposite with laser output level at full (100), there seems to be no difference in brightness.
Huge difference in black floor (also decrease of brightness in stars& spaceship) can be tested with famous Interstellar starfield scene or full black screen with one white pixel. (then laser will not shut off) The lower the laser output level the bigger the impact. (when overdrive is turned On)

Laser light output level slider has been in vw760 and 870 very subtle. Seems if to turn On Laser/overdrive it makes Laser slider a lot more aggressive without losing max brightness at level 100. I don’t have light meter so I cannot measure it exactly.

Can someone else test this and maybe knows more what the Laser/Overdrive option is doing?
Also, can VW760 owners look that is this option also present in VW760 or it is only in 870ES?
This (almost) sounds too good to be true. If the tweak only brings advantages, why didn't Sony implement it in the first place? Maybe it's a function they wanted to launch as part of a future successor of the PJ's?

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post #463 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:12 AM
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The upgrade is "just" 10k on the list price...
If buying an 870 straight off, yes.

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If you get a good deal on a new one it is way less. Archie was referring to sell his unit and estimated it would cost him extra 15-18k to buy an 870ES. Which I think is still quite exaggerated...
Really? So I buy a 760, for lets say a bargain price (10k for the sake of argument) and then I have to sell it second hand with only a year or so left on the warranty (that may not even be honoured to a second buyer) and I will be selling it for 7-8.5k MAX depending on usage (even if bought at full price it will be around that second hand and later this year, when it is replaced with the 780, it will be worth even less).

So even assuming I can get an 870 for a somewhat miraculous 23k retail, then I am still looking at 14.5k extra to change, and whilst that amount is 'only' the cost of a 760 on top, you are forgetting that I am already down by that amount in buying the 760, so the actual cost to me to change to an 870 would be nearly 25k in total!

And that was using best case scenario figures. I know that is the cost of an 870 anyway, but I have 97% of the performance now without shelling out any more money.

Using the lower figures for the move means I would be down nearly 33k to get an 870. Simply NOT worth it for the small increase in specs!!

Reality check here too. We are talking an amount of money that could buy a lovely preloved high performance car with these figures!

I would have to get an 870 for a ridiculously low amount to allow me to change and not make me feel that I have been raped in the wallet.

Never forget the cost of what one has already bought in these calculations!

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post #464 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:18 AM
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This (almost) sounds too good to be true. If the tweak only brings advantages, why didn't Sony implement it in the first place? Maybe it's a function they wanted to launch as part of a future successor of the PJ's?
More like something that Sony approved professional installers can use to improve the picture on installations that are not run of the mill or somewhat challenging.

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post #465 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:19 AM
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If you can actually spot differences in sharpness from that distance you must have eagle eyes!
Also, to see the REAL difference in sharpness afforded by the lens at any distance, reality creation should be switched firmly off.

And if both units are properly focussed, then the differences are probably small enough to be dismissible by anyone but those who simply must have the 870.
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post #466 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:24 AM
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That´s odd isn´t it?
Not really. It is part of the artificial differentiation that is in play.

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One would assume that firmwares would be almost identical....
They are. But omit a couple of lines of code and you artificially cripple the lower model that could quite easily support the features if they were included.

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post #467 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:24 AM
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Really? So I buy a 760, for lets say a bargain price (10k for the sake of argument) and then I have to sell it second hand with only a year or so left on the warranty (that may not even be honoured to a second buyer) and I will be selling it for 7-8.5k MAX depending on usage (even if bought at full price it will be around that second hand and later this year, when it is replaced with the 780, it will be worth even less).

So even assuming I can get an 870 for a somewhat miraculous 23k retail, then I am still looking at 14.5k extra to change, and whilst that amount is 'only' the cost of a 760 on top, you are forgetting that I am already down by that amount in buying the 760, so the actual cost to me to change to an 870 would be nearly 25k in total!

Oh my god, your math is way out of control. You know these figures are totally unrealistic, don´t you?

You get 30% on a 760ES but only 8% on an 870ES... really?!
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post #468 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:25 AM
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Not really. It is part of the artificial differentiation that is in play.
Yes, that´s why I mentioned it. Same goes for the Iris...
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post #469 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by kaaga View Post
I played around settings in service menu and I found something interesting:
There are two options:
• 223 Laser/Overdrive
• 226 Laser/LASER IRIS D SW (enables/disables iris)

When I turn On (0->1) Laser/Overdrive the laser level drops and I will get noticeable increased blacks and much better black floor.
What is interesting is that the lower the laser light output level slider - the bigger is the impact.
When turning laser level output to 0 and turning On Overdrive there is huge difference. Opposite with laser output level at full (100), there seems to be no difference in brightness.
Huge difference in black floor (also decrease of brightness in stars& spaceship) can be tested with famous Interstellar starfield scene or full black screen with one white pixel. (then laser will not shut off) The lower the laser output level the bigger the impact. (when overdrive is turned On)

Laser light output level slider has been in vw760 and 870 very subtle. Seems if to turn On Laser/overdrive it makes Laser slider a lot more aggressive without losing max brightness at level 100. I don’t have light meter so I cannot measure it exactly.

Can someone else test this and maybe knows more what the Laser/Overdrive option is doing?
Also, can VW760 owners look that is this option also present in VW760 or it is only in 870ES?
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Originally Posted by kaaga View Post
I make correction to my previous post. Laser/Overdrive must be turned from 0->1 to get the effect, so this means it must be turned "On" (not off). Default is 0 "Off".
Good find!

**HOWEVER** I would strongly advise against anyone enabling Service Menu item 223 Laser/Overdrive until after it is confirmed by SONY whether or not doing so is safe and what exactly are the long-term implications regards continously overdriving the laser, both with respect to the projector itself as well as the SONY warranty...

Also, please kindly note that any owners who themselves, as opposed to their 'AV dealer' , both enter and make changes via the Service Menu will be invalidating their projector's warranty.

I have put the question to my contacts at SONY and will feedback their response accordingly

BTW I also have both the SONY 885/760ES and 995/870ES here, so I can look into this and evaluate things as well after I have received a response from SONY

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post #470 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:43 AM
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Oh my god, your math is way out of control. You know these figures are totally unrealistic, don´t you?

You get 30% on a 760ES but only 8% on an 870ES... really?!
Where would you buy these machines and get a magic discount then?

I was just suggesting figures to give me a theoretical best case scenario.

Okay, so I get a 760 for 13.5k, my second hand figures still stand. 13.5 - 8.5 = 5 down on my initial buy, so will have to find 16.5 to change but will be down overall by 21.5 large.
13.5 - 7 = 6.5 down on my initial buy, so will have to find an extra 18.5 thus will be down by 25 large. If you use retail prices for the new units it gets even more totally not worth it.

If you are the kind or person who can stump up the difference and forget the initial cost in the calculations, then more power to you, but I have to factor in my initial loss due to purchase and include that in the cost to change to see the true cost to myself.

If the 870 had been out in early 2018, I would have probably saved a bit more and bought one of them, but as I am now in possession of a 760, the extra gubbins the 870 provides aren't worth tens of thousands more to me. NOT worth it!

It would be like paying 4.3 - 5k per extra 1 percent in performance.

I would like a shed load more brightness for that as well, and also in something that doesn't weigh as much as the Moon.

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post #471 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:49 AM
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I like the idea of the increased black floor but why would I want the stars to decrease in brightness?
Well it doesn't magically increase the contrast of the projector per scene so something's got to give. It's more believable that space stars aren't super bright from far away than the background of space is bright grey.

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post #472 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:50 AM
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Good find!

Also, please kindly note that any owners who themselves, as opposed to their 'AV dealer' , both enter and make changes via the Service Menu will be invalidating their projector's warranty.
If Sony believed it was a good choice then it would have been probably turned on - unless they are planning on a new firmware upgrade regarding laser dimming...

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post #473 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 05:53 AM
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Also, please kindly note that any owners who themselves, as opposed to their 'AV dealer' , both enter and make changes via the Service Menu will be invalidating their projector's warranty.
This is absolutely ridiculous. The only way you're invalidating your warranty is if you approach it like this: "Uh my projector needs service. By the way I fiddled around with some settings in the service menu, that's ok right?"

Any normal person would have no problems. If, for example, my projector needed warranty, I'd get it sent in and if someone at Sony complained that the service menu item was changed, I'd be like "What's the service menu? Maybe that's part of the defect" etc. No way you get denied warranty.
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post #474 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 06:00 AM
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Where would you buy these machines and get a magic discount then?

I was just suggesting figures to give me a theoretical best case scenario.

You can sell your 760 ES for 9k on Ebay (sold mine for 10.5k) and buy an 870es for a good deal that will leave you nowhere near 15-18k

Your initial loss is there because you have been using your projector for more than a year. Maybe your best choice is to buy a used 870ES at some point.

Last edited by Eventidal; 03-20-2019 at 06:07 AM.
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post #475 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 06:11 AM
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You can sell your 760 ES for 9k on Ebay (sold mine for 10.5k) and buy an 870es for a good deal that will leave you nowhere near 15k-18k. End of story.
You have called end of story. So whilst by your decree, I should not post on the subject again, I will.

Even if I sold it for 9k, I would still be down 6k on retail. Therefore even if I could get an 870 for 18k, then I would still have to find an extra 9k to buy it and then I would have to add the 6k to show the true cost of changing, i.e. 15k minimum *to change*.

That is assuming one can get a decent price second hand. It is still not really worth 9k extra though, even ignoring losses on original purchase. (These have to be taken into account as I won't end up with two assets (projectors) afterwards, just one.

It is only worth 2.5k extra in my view and that is for the cost of the lens. The software DFO/IRIS could easily be added to the 760 so is, in this context, valueless.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.
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post #476 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
This is absolutely ridiculous. The only way you're invalidating your warranty is if you approach it like this: "Uh my projector needs service. By the way I fiddled around with some settings in the service menu, that's ok right?"

Any normal person would have no problems. If, for example, my projector needed warranty, I'd get it sent in and if someone at Sony complained that the service menu item was changed, I'd be like "What's the service menu? Maybe that's part of the defect" etc. No way you get denied warranty.
I would agree with this in principal. How to enter the service menu is out there on the t'interwebs, so they can't expect people not to go in and have a look at the very least.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.
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post #477 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 06:35 AM
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I like the idea of the increased black floor but why would I want the stars to decrease in brightness?
Yes that's the downside!
Also it can be possible beneficial only in SDR when the laser output level is configured lower. (the lower the laser level the bigger the change is in the light output and consequentially better black floor) . In HDR it's wise to use max 100% laser output anyway so then I will be no noticeable differences in brightness(laser output)&black floor.
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post #478 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 06:44 AM
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I like the idea of the increased black floor but why would I want the stars to decrease in brightness?
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Originally Posted by kaaga View Post
Yes that's the downside!
Also it can be possible beneficial only in SDR when the laser output level is configured lower. (the lower the laser level the bigger the change is in the light output and consequentially better black floor) . In HDR it's wise to use max 100% laser output anyway so then I will be no noticeable differences in brightness(laser output)&black floor.
The question is to what extent the dynamic range is being increased. It's going to be very interesting taking measurements that's for sure

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post #479 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 06:46 AM
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post #480 of 1081 Old 03-20-2019, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
You have called end of story. So whilst by your decree, I should not post on the subject again, I will.

Even if I sold it for 9k, I would still be down 6k on retail. Therefore even if I could get an 870 for 18k, then I would still have to find an extra 9k to buy it and then I would have to add the 6k to show the true cost of changing, i.e. 15k minimum *to change*.

That is assuming one can get a decent price second hand. It is still not really worth 9k extra though, even ignoring losses on original purchase. (These have to be taken into account as I won't end up with two assets (projectors) afterwards, just one.

It is only worth 2.5k extra in my view and that is for the cost of the lens. The software DFO/IRIS could easily be added to the 760 so is, in this context, valueless.
You always do that? You take your loss for usage into consideration when buying new gear?

You buy a car and then go: I bought a Porsche for 90k, sold it used for 60 k and then my new Ferrari which was 150k really cost me 180k??!
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