Official Sony VPL-VW995ES/870ES 4K Laser Owner’s Discussion - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 1081 Old 12-18-2018, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Kris, give me a break. Last anyone knew you never owned a 5000ES. So for the many people who have been here to view the 5000 and then the 995 say the difference to their eyes is neglible. And it is over a 10 foot screen size so that makes your statement above not accurate. Having all three on the same screen qualifies more than just a comment. And yes I read what I write. I quit reading your stuff a long time ago like many others I know.

Again, thanks for stopping by and Merry Christmas.
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post #32 of 1081 Old 12-18-2018, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I am also well aware of their differences. I just wanted to make sure that others readers understood that just because the image looks "brighter" with a custom HDR curve rather than the factory ones, it is not actually "brighter" in the same way that measuring the peak output of the projector reports brightness. It is simply subjectively because of the difference in the tone map. Just like a 2.0 gamma can look "brighter" than a 2.4 gamma. The last thing I want those that don't understand these things to think is that they can somehow make this projector measurably brighter by using a custom HDR tone map vs the stock tone maps.

Ha, yes I almost wrote that. I agree completely and apologize for not being clearer... the actual performance of one unit to the other, tone map to like tone map, and brightness matched is probably virtually indistinguishable for HDR and other gamma based content. That makes perfect sense.
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post #33 of 1081 Old 12-18-2018, 02:49 PM
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Hi guys.
Any chance an owner, or someone who has one of these things for review, could take some snaps of the lens shift mechanism behind the lens on this projector please?
It is supposed to be improved as of this years new cohort and I would life to see if it is physically different to the previous iteration. The 295 looks very similar so it will be interesting to see if this uber expensive unit is any different.
Many thanks in advance.

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post #34 of 1081 Old 12-18-2018, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Hi guys.
Any chance an owner, or someone who has one of these things for review, could take some snaps of the lens shift mechanism behind the lens on this projector please?
It is supposed to be improved as of this years new cohort and I would life to see if it is physically different to the previous iteration. The 295 doesn't looks very similar so it will be interesting to see if this uber expensive unit is any different.
Many thanks in advance. 🙂
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post #35 of 1081 Old 12-18-2018, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Kris, give me a break. Last anyone knew you never owned a 5000ES. So for the many people who have been here to view the 5000 and then the 995 say the difference to their eyes is neglible. And it is over a 10 foot screen size so that makes your statement above not accurate. Having all three on the same screen qualifies more than just a comment. And yes I read what I write. I quit reading your stuff a long time ago like many others I know.

Again, thanks for stopping by and Merry Christmas.
I am not commenting on the 5000ES am I? And I would expect the difference between the 5000 and the 995 to be negligible because they are the same chips, lens and processing board. One is just brighter than the other, so what differences were you really expecting??

My comment still stands, that people that are thinking about buying a 995 with a screen that is over 10' wide that is not high gain may want to be sure they have enough light output. My screen is 11 feet wide and I am getting a PEAK white at mid throw or less of about 24 fL. Does HDR look good? Yes, because I have a tone map that compensates. But what does a guy that is buying a 12' or wider perf screen have?? High to mid teens?? So again, my comment is VERY valid and not a bash on the projector at all.

I could really care less about you reading my reviews, or if others don't like them, that is your prerogative. My entire point in this thread was to inform buyers and owners so they don't make a bad choice in screen size with this projector. Had absolutely ZERO to do with the quality of the image. I've read too many times your over bloated sense of generalities of "it's great!" "it's awesome" "try this picture mode that looks fantastic though I have absolutely no idea why but that's okay because I think it looks great and so do my friends!!!!". Some people obviously appreciate that. I would rather make sure that instead of random subjective superlatives that if I see someone post something that may be misleading in implementation, I make sure that some FACTS get out there. "more than enough light output for a 12-14 ft wide screen" is misleading. This projector has more than enough for that size screen for SDR playback, but HDR would be capped off in the mid to low teens for fLs unless you are talking about a high gain screen (which most don't have at that size, most use perf or weave designs with less than a 1 gain).

I could honestly care less for your opinions on anything Joe, especially projectors. And I could honestly care less about how you feel about my subjective comments on anything. But you're also someone that does ZERO objective analysis of ANYTHING. You don't even have the first inkling on how to do an objective review or measurement. So until you can actually measure something, don't start throwing stones at me for trying to HELP prospective buyers/owners of this projector with measured information. If you actually knew anything about this stuff, you'd have understood immediately that I wasn't trying to slam this projector at all. But here we are, par for the course again.

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post #36 of 1081 Old 12-18-2018, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Obviously you care enough to write a book of a response back. You obviously didn’t read my review. It was in comparison to all three laser projectors from Sony. You came here claiming “NOT” good enough for over 10 feet. That’s a pretty strong statement from someone who has only “measured” and not compared it to a projector that specs out at 5000 lumens. Just saying, you obviously have nothing better to do this evening...

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post #37 of 1081 Old 12-18-2018, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by RonStealth View Post
Are you sure about 70+ FL? 120” screen is around 60 sq ft right? 120” diagonal is probably closer to 50 sq ft but calibrated lumens should be around 1600-1800 I would think. These are just ballpark numbers but wouldn’t your FL be closer to 30-35 FL maxed out on this projector?
Correct. Even if you got the full 2,200 lumens out of the projector, you would only get 51FL on a 120" diagonal 1.0 gain screen.
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post #38 of 1081 Old 12-19-2018, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I am not commenting on the 5000ES am I? And I would expect the difference between the 5000 and the 995 to be negligible because they are the same chips, lens and processing board. One is just brighter than the other, so what differences were you really expecting??

My comment still stands, that people that are thinking about buying a 995 with a screen that is over 10' wide that is not high gain may want to be sure they have enough light output. My screen is 11 feet wide and I am getting a PEAK white at mid throw or less of about 24 fL. Does HDR look good? Yes, because I have a tone map that compensates. But what does a guy that is buying a 12' or wider perf screen have?? High to mid teens?? So again, my comment is VERY valid and not a bash on the projector at all.

I could really care less about you reading my reviews, or if others don't like them, that is your prerogative. My entire point in this thread was to inform buyers and owners so they don't make a bad choice in screen size with this projector. Had absolutely ZERO to do with the quality of the image. I've read too many times your over bloated sense of generalities of "it's great!" "it's awesome" "try this picture mode that looks fantastic though I have absolutely no idea why but that's okay because I think it looks great and so do my friends!!!!". Some people obviously appreciate that. I would rather make sure that instead of random subjective superlatives that if I see someone post something that may be misleading in implementation, I make sure that some FACTS get out there. "more than enough light output for a 12-14 ft wide screen" is misleading. This projector has more than enough for that size screen for SDR playback, but HDR would be capped off in the mid to low teens for fLs unless you are talking about a high gain screen (which most don't have at that size, most use perf or weave designs with less than a 1 gain).

I could honestly care less for your opinions on anything Joe, especially projectors. And I could honestly care less about how you feel about my subjective comments on anything. But you're also someone that does ZERO objective analysis of ANYTHING. You don't even have the first inkling on how to do an objective review or measurement. So until you can actually measure something, don't start throwing stones at me for trying to HELP prospective buyers/owners of this projector with measured information. If you actually knew anything about this stuff, you'd have understood immediately that I wasn't trying to slam this projector at all. But here we are, par for the course again.

Two quick and dirty solutions for the problems you state (using the 995 with a low gain 12 foot screen) could be:

1- Use a Panasonic 4K player (to get decent HDR tone mapping)
2- Add an anamorph lens (to get extra light output)

Okay, nr 2 is not exactly cheap, but stil...

These solutions will probably not be enough to get perfect HDR, but it's a step in the right direction. Anyway, this is the path that I am about to take:

- 2.40:1 screen 128" (327 cm/about 11 foot) width (diameter 139"/354 cm)
- gain about 0.9 (AT)
- Sony 995
- Anamorph lens
- Panny 4K player

Last edited by Holy Grail; 12-19-2018 at 12:48 AM.
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post #39 of 1081 Old 12-19-2018, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I am not commenting on the 5000ES am I? And I would expect the difference between the 5000 and the 995 to be negligible because they are the same chips, lens and processing board.
Am I not correct in thinking the processing board in a 5000 is utterly different to the lower models? I mean the sockets are in different places for a start.....

Also, what chip is in the 5000? Did it have the X1 all along?

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post #40 of 1081 Old 12-19-2018, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
Two quick and dirty solutions for the problems you state (using the 995 with a low gain 12 foot screen) could be:

1- Use a Panasonic 4K player (to get decent HDR tone mapping)
2- Add an anamorph lens (to get extra light output)

Okay, nr 2 is not exactly cheap, but stil...

These solutions will probably not be enough to get perfect HDR, but it's a step in the right direction. Anyway, this is the path that I am about to take:

- 2.40:1 screen 128" (327 cm/about 11 foot) width (diameter 139"/354 cm)
- gain about 0.9 (AT)
- Sony 995
- Anamorph lens
- Panny 4K player
The Lumagen will not add any light to the 995, again, it is only the perception of brightness due to the tone map used that helps, similar to the Panasonic. An Anamorphic lens will help quite a bit (I tested the 995ES with the Panamorph Palladin DCR lens for the review).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Am I not correct in thinking the processing board in a 5000 is utterly different to the lower models? I mean the sockets are in different places for a start.....

Also, what chip is in the 5000? Did it have the X1 all along?
According to the Sony information I have from the event they did at CEDIA all models from the 295ES and up use the same X1 processing engine (I'm sure board layout is slightly different). To answer your previous question, the lens shift mechanism is a completely new design, not a firmware update. I have a CAD image of both that Sony provided and they are clearly different than each other.
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post #41 of 1081 Old 12-19-2018, 06:45 AM
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Joe,

back to your review. Do you perceive any improvements in using Motionflow and Reality Creation with this new Sony projector?
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post #42 of 1081 Old 12-19-2018, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Joe,

back to your review. Do you perceive any improvements in using Motionflow and Reality Creation with this new Sony projector?
Having the same chips theoretically there shouldn’t be but to our eyes we find the panning and extreme motion moments easier on the eyes. I have to credit this to the DFO. Less blurry more perceived sharpness makes a more pleasing image to our eyes. I am excited for the 5000 to get an update which will improve upon what is already a presentation to behold. Awesome to see them making improvements through firmware updates.

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post #43 of 1081 Old 12-19-2018, 11:38 AM
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If no one else does by the time I get back into town I promise I will. Good idea.
Thanks. Very interested to see it.

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post #44 of 1081 Old 12-19-2018, 11:42 AM
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You brought up the word biased not me. Cracks me up how you couldn’t wait to stop by in the owner’s thread to try and rain on the parade. I like Sony projectors. No secret there. I also plan to Review the NX9 when it finally shows up next year sometime.

And others who have seen it have been very positive about it. Even Craig Peer said it and the NX9 were best of show.

Either way the 995ES deserves a glowing review and I stand behind my comments.
True - I did like it. And I think the VW995 would look great on my screen. Which is just under 10' wide ( 118" to be exact ) and a ST130 ( 2.35:1 ). 4K HDR looks glorious - and nowhere near too bright - at even 47 foot lamberts on my screen. I actually measured my RS4500 with a light meter. All Kris is saying is for bright HDR, watch your screen size. That applies to just about any home theater projector - not just Sony. Even the VW5000 will have it's limits. Which is why Art has 2 stacked !

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post #45 of 1081 Old 12-19-2018, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Craig, that was yesterday’s argument. I am not continuing it since this is the Owner’s thread. All I am saying is we can measure all we want but having the projectors on the same screen allow actual eyeball measurements. My people are all good and cannot tell the difference. Before when most had the VW1000/1100 rated at 2000 lumens how did we live? And Art has a Monster screen so he doesn’t count in the debate. And yes we all know how much you love your 4500. Lol

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post #46 of 1081 Old 12-19-2018, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Craig, that was yesterday’s argument. I am not continuing it since this is the Owner’s thread. All I am saying is we can measure all we want but having the projectors on the same screen allow actual eyeball measurements. My people are all good and cannot tell the difference. Before when most had the VW1000/1100 rated at 2000 lumens how did we live? And Art has a Monster screen so he doesn’t count in the debate. And yes we all know how much you love your 4500. Lol

That's cool. I just saw you mentioned my name and thought I'd add my 2 cents. These days picking a great projector is easy - the VW885 or 995 are great projectors. Most folks I deal with have a much harder time agonizing over what screen to get. Merry Xmas !
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post #47 of 1081 Old 12-19-2018, 08:26 PM
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The heated debate on measurement vs subjective viewing is actually a vexed one. This parallels a similar debate within hifi audio. In this domain some audio engineers will only listen in a breif way relying heavily on the precision of their sound reproduction goals to produce the ‘perfect audio’. It is often the prelude to listeners finding the sound dull and lifeless or clinical and sterile or sometimes wonderfully musical. I do believe however that subjective listening experience is more important than measurement in many cases. Something can measure like a bag of nails and still sound wonderful.
In the case of how many lumens one should have on a screen for great HDR is just as vexed in my opinion. Measuring light output to determine the amount of light needed for satisfactory viewing is undoubtedly a helpful guide but not an absolute. It still depends on what the viewing experience is like. Without that the measurements have little meaning. HDR in the projector world is still in its infancy and there are still no hard and fast standards and we are all caught up in world of tweaking in an effort to gain a satisfying viewing experience. Ultimately the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Perhaps a compromise caveat could include the idea that the 995ES has been observed as a capable performer on screens larger than 10 foot for Both SDR and HDR. However, particularly with a view to light output, the buyer would do well to make sure the performance including the HDR performance is to their taste via a home demo.

Returning to Joerods review I thoroughly enjoyed the write up Joe and am now keen to home demo this tasty bit of kit asap. Many thanks,

Paul H
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post #48 of 1081 Old 12-20-2018, 04:01 AM
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Craig, that was yesterday’s argument. I am not continuing it since this is the Owner’s thread.
Are we saying a discussion of whether the projector in this thread is good for screen size X is *out of scope* for the owners thread of said projector?

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All I am saying is we can measure all we want but having the projectors on the same screen allow actual eyeball measurements. My people are all good and cannot tell the difference.
Sounds like a continuation of the discussion right there. Otherwise you'd have left this part out. Love it when people say they don't want to discuss something then leave their perspective in one last couple sentences.

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Before when most had the VW1000/1100 rated at 2000 lumens how did we live?
Without HDR. That projector didn't even support it.
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post #49 of 1081 Old 12-20-2018, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Sim View Post
The heated debate on measurement vs subjective viewing is actually a vexed one. This parallels a similar debate within hifi audio. In this domain some audio engineers will only listen in a breif way relying heavily on the precision of their sound reproduction goals to produce the ‘perfect audio’. It is often the prelude to listeners finding the sound dull and lifeless or clinical and sterile or sometimes wonderfully musical. I do believe however that subjective listening experience is more important than measurement in many cases. Something can measure like a bag of nails and still sound wonderful.
In the case of how many lumens one should have on a screen for great HDR is just as vexed in my opinion. Measuring light output to determine the amount of light needed for satisfactory viewing is undoubtedly a helpful guide but not an absolute. It still depends on what the viewing experience is like. Without that the measurements have little meaning. HDR in the projector world is still in its infancy and there are still no hard and fast standards and we are all caught up in world of tweaking in an effort to gain a satisfying viewing experience. Ultimately the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Perhaps a compromise caveat could include the idea that the 995ES has been observed as a capable performer on screens larger than 10 foot for Both SDR and HDR. However, particularly with a view to light output, the buyer would do well to make sure the performance including the HDR performance is to their taste via a home demo.

Returning to Joerods review I thoroughly enjoyed the write up Joe and am now keen to home demo this tasty bit of kit asap. Many thanks,

Paul H
Indeed. One man's ideal luminance level might be one person's dull and flat or another person's eyeball seeringly bright.
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post #50 of 1081 Old 12-20-2018, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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As Holiday time approaches I am already getting messages from family members asking what movie options are on tap. Besides the usual “go-to” Christmas movies I like having a couple of new release options ready. I guess we will have Bad Times At The El Royale, Equalizer 2, The House With a Clock In Its Walls (kid option) and for my scary movie fans Hell Fest and the new Halloween. I will try and get some more screen shots...


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post #51 of 1081 Old 12-20-2018, 07:00 AM
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Indeed. One man's ideal luminance level might be one person's dull and flat or another person's eyeball seeringly bright.
Agree completely with this statement up until a point. We all know that HDR requires more light than SDR to work properly. The tone mapping in the Sony doesn't give you a lot of room for dialing in the tone map to bring up the first 100 nits so that the subjective brightness is comparable to SDR. So if the screen is too large, HDR will be limited to fL levels in the mid to upper teens. NO ONE will think that is bright and will probably find the image very dull. Joe's screen isn't that big, it is even smaller than mine. On my screen the majority of the HDR content I looked at looked great, but there are titles that look dull (BR2049 comes to mind). On my 11 ft wide screen I am getting about 24fL peak white. So if I went to a bigger screen, or a weave/perf, this would only go down and more titles would fall in the dull category (a complaint we already hear from HDR in general, even from flat panel owners).

You can indeed compensate for some of these issues with something like a Lumagen to adjust the tone map, the Panasonic 820 or 9000 or even an anamorphic lens. Only the latter can actually boost the overall brightness level of the projector, but the others will help with subjective brightness for those struggling with light output on larger screens. But the lower the light output you have to work with, the more aggressive the tone mapping becomes and you can easily start getting issues like clipping and banding. You can only fit so much signal in a small space.

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post #52 of 1081 Old 12-20-2018, 07:15 AM
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@Kris Deering

Have you already done a review of the 870 somewhere? I would very much like to read it if so.

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post #53 of 1081 Old 12-20-2018, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
@Kris Deering

Have you already done a review of the 870 somewhere? I would very much like to read it if so.
Wrapping up my measurments this week. Probably be online sometime in January (all in the hands of the publication).

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post #54 of 1081 Old 12-20-2018, 08:05 AM
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Wrapping up my measurments this week. Probably be online sometime in January (all in the hands of the publication).
Splendid. I trust you will let us know when that happens?

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
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post #55 of 1081 Old 12-20-2018, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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So to sum it up- some people watch movies with a light meter and some just watch with their eyes.
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4K HDR10- ignore the “rules” and trust your eyes!
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post #56 of 1081 Old 12-20-2018, 11:11 AM
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Indeed. One man's ideal luminance level might be one person's dull and flat or another person's eyeball seeringly bright.
True, but without using measurements and data, it's not possible to plan for desired outcomes.
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post #57 of 1081 Old 12-20-2018, 11:21 AM
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So to sum it up- some people watch movies with a light meter and some just watch with their eyes.
No, some people base theater design on easy to replicate repeatable data (a good light meter is only $ 170.00 after all - I have bottles of wine that cost more ), and some people just wing it. You wouldn't recommend someone hauling 8000 lb. loads over the Rockies to just get a 1/2 ton pickup with a 4 cylinder engine, would you ? It's all about having enough horsepower for the job.
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post #58 of 1081 Old 12-20-2018, 03:20 PM
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Move on guys...
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post #59 of 1081 Old 12-20-2018, 06:04 PM
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WTF Joe. Do you even read the stuff you write? For one, you're not any more of an "owner" of this projector than I am. You're reviewing it, or did you decide to sell your 5000ES for it?

I also didn't come on this thread to rain on anyone's parade, I have not said a single bad thing about the projector. I just merely stated that this projector may not provide the amount of light needed for HDR playback on screens over 10 feet wide. That isn't a slam, it certainly doesn't say anything about the quality of the image either. It just helps inform prospective owners that may want the light output that most talk about for HDR (30 fL) that they may not want to spec a screen over 10 ft wide. I can say the same thing about A LOT of other projectors including most of the JVC lineup and the Sony lineup. Feel free to disagree with my commentary on the projector's actual performance when I actually publish it, but I haven't said anything about it yet.
While this may be true, isn’t it fair to say that there isn’t any projector out there short of the Sony 5000 that can accomplish the image quality and HDR brightness that most videophiles in here are looking for on a 11-12ft perf/weave ~0.8-1.0 gain screen? Its been that way for years and probably the one fact that everyone is already aware of and doesn’t appear to be changing anytime soon?

Lets face it, we still have a smattering of +/- 1600 lumen calibrated projectors from JVC, Sony, Epson, etc, The JVC 4500 that barely gets to HDR on a 12ft screen calibrated (maybe 2600 lumens at tornado fan speeds) and of course the Sony 5000 that can handle HDR easily on a 12ft screen at 1 gain.

Last edited by RonStealth; 12-20-2018 at 06:22 PM.
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post #60 of 1081 Old 12-20-2018, 07:59 PM
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After owning the 5000 on a 14’ wide 1.0 gain screen I would never dip below a 5000 AL projector. That said, there is a huge hole that needs to be filled by Sony or even JVC for a 3000 AL projector for such scenarios as a 12’ wide or so (1.0 gain) or 13’ wide (1.3 gain) screen. This seems to be the sweet spot for the majority of theaters and instead many flirt with screens that are slightly too large for their 1800 AL projectors. I always thought for the 995’s price, it should have been bumped to at least 2500 AL or perhaps even 3000. I am sure the 995 is a great projector for the right screen size. It appears at a relatively high laser setting the 995 works fine for Joerod’s screen size, but I am sure that any bigger and a dim image would quickly result. Let’s not forget other factors such as the room colors, light control, throw distance... which can bring out a best case scenario image given a projector’s limited AL.
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