Originally Posted by Archibald1
I thought the contrast enhancer was one feature that DOES do it's thing on a frame by frame basis?
Contrast enhancer modulates gamma and local contrast similar to what you saw with Darbee. Since it is responding to the image on screen, it is frame by frame, but this is a lot different than tone mapping. It is more of a local contrast enhancer.
Originally Posted by Franin
Thanks for the info Kris. Im done trying to utilise the HDR on this projector ( Though i havent tried HDR Contrast to max ) ive gone back to the SDR 2020 on my player. Pic looks awesome even if it isnt HDR.
It is still HDR, the only difference is where the tone map is occurring. In this case you are doing it in the device that does the far better job.
Originally Posted by jackox
It is frame based and not that simple. True it will alter picture balance.
Ask Chris Mullin, he will explain why it has to be combined with HDR content.
He is my source of info in that matter.
Again, it is a local contrast adjuster that does modulate gamma slightly. That is not the same as tone mapping. The closest technology would be Darbee in comparison. And it would have to be frame by frame to work properly given what it is doing.
Originally Posted by jackox
Yes it is.
It is dynamic using complexe algorithmes.
Sony would not disclose the process, only the basic theory behind.
A DTM also work with frame analysis which and be simple or very complexe depending on the tech.
It will alter the standard EOTF (gamma curve) and also work on the tone mapping.
The two are related though.
You guys are confusing different elements. The original post was about the Sony doing dynamic tone mapping. IT DOES NOT. It does dynamic local contrast adjustment, which also moderately modulates the gamma. That is not the same as a dynamic tone map, which would not only adjust the entire curve, but adapt to the changing MaxCLL and FALL in the content, of which the Sony doesn't do anything remotely close to. This is extremely easy to test for, and the Sony fails in this respect anytime you do.
Originally Posted by jackox
As far as Chris told me, Sony aim at dynamic solutions.
They do not beleive ATM is the best solution. Besides it can happen that metadata are wrong or not even included.
DTM or any other dynamic tech, look into the frames and run its optimisation.
Because pj cannot match HDR standards, dynamic tech seems the best way.
Sony's stance is that they setup the tone mapping in their projector to emulate their BVM mastering monitor. Except that makes no sense since the BVM would never tone map. It sets the limit of the project being done on it, it is not designed to be a playback device, it is designed as a MASTERING tool. A projector doesn't act the same at all. For one, it doesn't have nearly the same light output, so it has to tone map. But it also has a varying amount of light output based on the environment and screen size used with it. Therefore the amount of tone mapping required will be different in ever setup. So you can't have a one size fits all solution. Sony essentially gives you two different settings that will help with the image; Contrast HDR, which sets the peak level for the tone map (should try and match the MaxCLL of the content) and the Contrast Enhancer, which adjusts the gamma to brighten the image and increase perceived contrast by clipping near white and near black. This is easy to see with any ramp pattern, but it comes at the cost of accuracy because you are now clipping the area around black and white. No matter what you still have to change the Contrast HDR setting on a title by title basis, though most of the content on the market today tends to be at or below 1000 nits. The rather funny thing is that Sony and Warner are the ones that tend to have content that is much higher in MaxCLL, so Sony's own content creates more trouble for the projector than most others.
I've found that Sony's marketing guys do a lot to talk around their issues or give you the reasons that they are not issues until they have solutions for them and then advertise how they have the solutions. In other words, you don't need this feature until we have it. All companies do it to some degree though, it isn't Sony centric.
Sony's tone map itself is actually quite good in balance. They have some bit depth issues that result in visible banding (and uniformity), which is why I typically recommend an outboard device for tone mapping with them (also for the automatic adjustment of the tone map to the content). But when everything in the Sony is set properly it can look fantastic, it is just tedious to use. You not only have to setup a different picture mode and manually switch back and forth, but you need to do the adjustment on a per title basis and since they don't report metadata, you have to do it blind (or hope you have a player that will tell you). I agree with them that the metadata isn't always there, or can be wrong (including their titles), but that doesn't mean you just ignore it completely and hope for the best. When I did the Sony/JVC demonstration at The Screening Room event I demonstrated this. There were quite a few Sony owners in the room that acknowledged the same issue and tedium associated with it. When you compare it to a projector that does all of this for you automatically, it almost seems ridiculous. I talked to the engineers and product managers at Sony about this hoping they would implement it with future products. Even just switching to a dedicated picture mode for HDR would be a big step in the right direction given how many variables have to change when you feed a Sony HDR vs SDR. Off the top of my head you can't share the brightness, light output or contrast enhancer settings at a minimum. Should the end user have to adjust at least three different settings EVERY time they change the input signal? The workaround now is to setup a different picture mode, which is what I do when I calibrate a Sony for a client. Then you just hope they remember to switch the picture mode (some do, some don't). But this would be a lot easier for the end user if it just switched like most other projectors do (it does for both the JVC and BenQ projectors I've looked at recently).