Official Sony VPL-VW995ES/870ES 4K Laser Owner’s Discussion - Page 31 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #901 of 1039 Old 06-15-2019, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I thought the contrast enhancer was one feature that DOES do it's thing on a frame by frame basis?
Yes it is.
It is dynamic using complexe algorithmes.
Sony would not disclose the process, only the basic theory behind.

A DTM also work with frame analysis which and be simple or very complexe depending on the tech.
It will alter the standard EOTF (gamma curve) and also work on the tone mapping.
The two are related though.
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post #902 of 1039 Old 06-15-2019, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by hasta666 View Post
Unfortunately I don’t think that the 760/870 will get the same treatment as the 1100/5000 regarding upgradability. In its time the 1100 was a very high end unit with advance tech (eg. 4K panels) that justified an upgrade program because the HDMI board was not really up to the task when UHD content went available and Sony had nothing at the time to propose as a decent replacement. There was no HDR, no better lens, no better panels regarding contrast. Now that 4K projectors are « mainstream », we are back to normal product cycle. The naming convention is in a sense a reflect of that, the 760/870 being intrisically better projectors but lacking the 1xxx product classification.
I was wondering because they are also listed in the Sony Pro gear catalog.
Only time will tell.
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post #903 of 1039 Old 06-15-2019, 09:56 PM
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It is frame based and not that simple. True it will alter picture balance.
Ask Chris Mullin, he will explain why it has to be combined with HDR content.
He is my source of info in that matter.
He's The Sony product manager their in Europe. Can you ask him if they will ever implement and Auto tone mapping for our projectors ?

Just curious to see what his response is as Ive asked my product manager over here in Australia and he implied it wasn't worth doing.
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post #904 of 1039 Old 06-15-2019, 10:00 PM
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So the contrast enhancer where should that be set at Low, Middle or High ? Curious to know where everyone is setting theirs and if their any interference in the pq.

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post #905 of 1039 Old 06-16-2019, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
So the contrast enhancer where should that be set at Low, Middle or High ? Curious to know where everyone is setting theirs and if their any interference in the pq.
It changes quite alot when over LOW.
But it can bring spectacular effect with HDR contents.
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post #906 of 1039 Old 06-16-2019, 03:54 AM
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So the contrast enhancer where should that be set at Low, Middle or High ? Curious to know where everyone is setting theirs and if their any interference in the pq.
Simple answer? Whatever you find it looks best to you. Doesn't actually matter if it clips a bit of white or black or whatever, if the image you get is what you like.

When watching movies in real life, how many are going to say to you in the middle of a scene, "Hey, stop it there and rewind, I think there wasn't enough low level detail in that scene, change the contrast settings and play it again."

None, is the answer.
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post #907 of 1039 Old 06-16-2019, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
He's The Sony product manager their in Europe. Can you ask him if they will ever implement and Auto tone mapping for our projectors ?

Just curious to see what his response is as Ive asked my product manager over here in Australia and he implied it wasn't worth doing.
As far as Chris told me, Sony aim at dynamic solutions.
They do not beleive ATM is the best solution. Besides it can happen that metadata are wrong or not even included.
DTM or any other dynamic tech, look into the frames and run its optimisation.
Because pj cannot match HDR standards, dynamic tech seems the best way.
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post #908 of 1039 Old 06-16-2019, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I thought the contrast enhancer was one feature that DOES do it's thing on a frame by frame basis?
Contrast enhancer modulates gamma and local contrast similar to what you saw with Darbee. Since it is responding to the image on screen, it is frame by frame, but this is a lot different than tone mapping. It is more of a local contrast enhancer.

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Thanks for the info Kris. Im done trying to utilise the HDR on this projector ( Though i havent tried HDR Contrast to max ) ive gone back to the SDR 2020 on my player. Pic looks awesome even if it isnt HDR.
It is still HDR, the only difference is where the tone map is occurring. In this case you are doing it in the device that does the far better job.

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Originally Posted by jackox View Post
It is frame based and not that simple. True it will alter picture balance.
Ask Chris Mullin, he will explain why it has to be combined with HDR content.
He is my source of info in that matter.
Again, it is a local contrast adjuster that does modulate gamma slightly. That is not the same as tone mapping. The closest technology would be Darbee in comparison. And it would have to be frame by frame to work properly given what it is doing.

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Yes it is.
It is dynamic using complexe algorithmes.
Sony would not disclose the process, only the basic theory behind.

A DTM also work with frame analysis which and be simple or very complexe depending on the tech.
It will alter the standard EOTF (gamma curve) and also work on the tone mapping.
The two are related though.
You guys are confusing different elements. The original post was about the Sony doing dynamic tone mapping. IT DOES NOT. It does dynamic local contrast adjustment, which also moderately modulates the gamma. That is not the same as a dynamic tone map, which would not only adjust the entire curve, but adapt to the changing MaxCLL and FALL in the content, of which the Sony doesn't do anything remotely close to. This is extremely easy to test for, and the Sony fails in this respect anytime you do.

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As far as Chris told me, Sony aim at dynamic solutions.
They do not beleive ATM is the best solution. Besides it can happen that metadata are wrong or not even included.
DTM or any other dynamic tech, look into the frames and run its optimisation.
Because pj cannot match HDR standards, dynamic tech seems the best way.
Sony's stance is that they setup the tone mapping in their projector to emulate their BVM mastering monitor. Except that makes no sense since the BVM would never tone map. It sets the limit of the project being done on it, it is not designed to be a playback device, it is designed as a MASTERING tool. A projector doesn't act the same at all. For one, it doesn't have nearly the same light output, so it has to tone map. But it also has a varying amount of light output based on the environment and screen size used with it. Therefore the amount of tone mapping required will be different in ever setup. So you can't have a one size fits all solution. Sony essentially gives you two different settings that will help with the image; Contrast HDR, which sets the peak level for the tone map (should try and match the MaxCLL of the content) and the Contrast Enhancer, which adjusts the gamma to brighten the image and increase perceived contrast by clipping near white and near black. This is easy to see with any ramp pattern, but it comes at the cost of accuracy because you are now clipping the area around black and white. No matter what you still have to change the Contrast HDR setting on a title by title basis, though most of the content on the market today tends to be at or below 1000 nits. The rather funny thing is that Sony and Warner are the ones that tend to have content that is much higher in MaxCLL, so Sony's own content creates more trouble for the projector than most others.

I've found that Sony's marketing guys do a lot to talk around their issues or give you the reasons that they are not issues until they have solutions for them and then advertise how they have the solutions. In other words, you don't need this feature until we have it. All companies do it to some degree though, it isn't Sony centric.

Sony's tone map itself is actually quite good in balance. They have some bit depth issues that result in visible banding (and uniformity), which is why I typically recommend an outboard device for tone mapping with them (also for the automatic adjustment of the tone map to the content). But when everything in the Sony is set properly it can look fantastic, it is just tedious to use. You not only have to setup a different picture mode and manually switch back and forth, but you need to do the adjustment on a per title basis and since they don't report metadata, you have to do it blind (or hope you have a player that will tell you). I agree with them that the metadata isn't always there, or can be wrong (including their titles), but that doesn't mean you just ignore it completely and hope for the best. When I did the Sony/JVC demonstration at The Screening Room event I demonstrated this. There were quite a few Sony owners in the room that acknowledged the same issue and tedium associated with it. When you compare it to a projector that does all of this for you automatically, it almost seems ridiculous. I talked to the engineers and product managers at Sony about this hoping they would implement it with future products. Even just switching to a dedicated picture mode for HDR would be a big step in the right direction given how many variables have to change when you feed a Sony HDR vs SDR. Off the top of my head you can't share the brightness, light output or contrast enhancer settings at a minimum. Should the end user have to adjust at least three different settings EVERY time they change the input signal? The workaround now is to setup a different picture mode, which is what I do when I calibrate a Sony for a client. Then you just hope they remember to switch the picture mode (some do, some don't). But this would be a lot easier for the end user if it just switched like most other projectors do (it does for both the JVC and BenQ projectors I've looked at recently).

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post #909 of 1039 Old 06-16-2019, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Contrast enhancer modulates gamma and local contrast similar to what you saw with Darbee. Since it is responding to the image on screen, it is frame by frame, but this is a lot different than tone mapping. It is more of a local contrast enhancer.
I never personally said it was, but that is what I was led to believe it is doing, yes.

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post #910 of 1039 Old 06-16-2019, 09:43 AM
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The rather funny thing is that Sony and Warner are the ones that tend to have content that is much higher in MaxCLL, so Sony's own content creates more trouble for the projector than most others.
I too have noticed this (since I have had my Panasonic to look at the metadata) but I find their content is easier to dial in than others.

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I've found that Sony's marketing guys do a lot to talk around their issues or give you the reasons that they are not issues until they have solutions for them and then advertise how they have the solutions. In other words, you don't need this feature until we have it. All companies do it to some degree though, it isn't Sony centric.
Yeah I am sure they all do this to a greater or lesser extent, not least because if they admit a problem the open the flood gates to people who feel the have been mis-sold or misled. It will never happen.

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Sony's tone map itself is actually quite good in balance. They have some bit depth issues that result in visible banding (and uniformity), which is why I typically recommend an outboard device for tone mapping with them (also for the automatic adjustment of the tone map to the content). But when everything in the Sony is set properly it can look fantastic, it is just tedious to use. You not only have to setup a different picture mode and manually switch back and forth, but you need to do the adjustment on a per title basis and since they don't report metadata, you have to do it blind (or hope you have a player that will tell you). I agree with them that the metadata isn't always there, or can be wrong (including their titles), but that doesn't mean you just ignore it completely and hope for the best. When I did the Sony/JVC demonstration at The Screening Room event I demonstrated this. There were quite a few Sony owners in the room that acknowledged the same issue and tedium associated with it. When you compare it to a projector that does all of this for you automatically, it almost seems ridiculous. I talked to the engineers and product managers at Sony about this hoping they would implement it with future products. Even just switching to a dedicated picture mode for HDR would be a big step in the right direction given how many variables have to change when you feed a Sony HDR vs SDR. Off the top of my head you can't share the brightness, light output or contrast enhancer settings at a minimum. Should the end user have to adjust at least three different settings EVERY time they change the input signal? The workaround now is to setup a different picture mode, which is what I do when I calibrate a Sony for a client. Then you just hope they remember to switch the picture mode (some do, some don't). But this would be a lot easier for the end user if it just switched like most other projectors do (it does for both the JVC and BenQ projectors I've looked at recently).
I agree with all that. I would love it to all be more automatic.

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post #911 of 1039 Old 06-16-2019, 05:36 PM
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It is still HDR, the only difference is where the tone map is occurring. In this case you are doing it in the device that does the far better job.

Oh Okay well then im happy with that because at -4 on the panny at 500 nit selection the pq looks sensational.

I tried to give the HDR on the sony a chance every way i tried some movies do suffer. But by saying that some are amazing as well.

Thanks Kris for the detailed explanation.


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post #912 of 1039 Old 06-16-2019, 05:56 PM
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I too have noticed this (since I have had my Panasonic to look at the metadata) but I find their content is easier to dial in than others.







Yeah I am sure they all do this to a greater or lesser extent, not least because if they admit a problem the open the flood gates to people who feel the have been mis-sold or misled. It will never happen.







I agree with all that. I would love it to all be more automatic.


Its funny because it seems to me Sony around the world are trained to say the same response. Im sure their is at least one engineer who believes the auto tone map will benefit.


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post #913 of 1039 Old 06-16-2019, 09:45 PM
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I do think DTM is a better way for pj than ATM.

Only because light is not a linear phenomena.
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post #914 of 1039 Old 06-17-2019, 06:14 AM
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I do think DTM is a better way for pj than ATM.

Only because light is not a linear phenomena.
Okay, I must have missed that bit.... what is DTM and ATM in this context please? Other than the obvious ones of 'Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters' and 'Automated Teller Machine' of course.....

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post #915 of 1039 Old 06-17-2019, 06:25 AM
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Okay, I must have missed that bit.... what is DTM and ATM in this context please? Other than the obvious ones of 'Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters' and 'Automated Teller Machine' of course.....
ATM = Automatic Tone Mapping. Adjusts static tonemap for the whole movie based on disc metadata. JVC and Panasonic HDR optimizer -style.
--> With ATM you don't have to adjust manually for every movie, to find the best compromise.

DTM = Dynamic Tone Mapping. Adjusts tone map in real time scene by scene, by measuring the actual frames and detecting scene changes. MadVR and Radiance Pro -style.
--> With DTM you dont have to compromise, because dark scenes can be tonemapped independently of the bright scenes

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ATM = Automatic Tone Mapping. Adjusts static tonemap for the whole movie based on disc metadata. JVC and Panasonic HDR optimizer -style.
--> With ATM you don't have to adjust manually for every movie, to find the best compromise.

DTM = Dynamic Tone Mapping. Adjusts tone map in real time frame by frame, by measuring the actual frame. MadVR and Radiance Pro -style.
--> With DTM you dont have to compromise, because dark scenes can be tonemapped independently of the bright scenes

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It seems so obvious now you have pointed it out! Thank you.

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Oh Okay well then im happy with that because at -4 on the panny at 500 nit selection the pq looks sensational.

I tried to give the HDR on the sony a chance every way i tried some movies do suffer. But by saying that some are amazing as well.

Thanks Kris for the detailed explanation.


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The 500 nit selection does not apply to SDR2020 output. The display type selections only apply when you are outputting HDR2020 and you have the Optimizer ON.
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post #918 of 1039 Old 06-17-2019, 08:03 AM
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ATM = Automatic Tone Mapping. Adjusts static tonemap for the whole movie based on disc metadata. JVC and Panasonic HDR optimizer -style.
--> With ATM you don't have to adjust manually for every movie, to find the best compromise.

DTM = Dynamic Tone Mapping. Adjusts tone map in real time frame by frame, by measuring the actual frame. MadVR and Radiance Pro -style.
--> With DTM you dont have to compromise, because dark scenes can be tonemapped independently of the bright scenes

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Agree completely. But one clarification, the Radiance does not do real time frame by frame tone mapping. It is scene based. I believe MadVR may be similar, but I'm not 100% sure. It analyzes on a frame by frame basis to update the tone map on a scene by scene basis. If you were to do it on a frame by frame basis you'd see too many artifacts. Even Dolby Vision does it this way. They all massage the tone map when a new scene with very different APL is detected. This gives you the most optimization for the amount of dynamic range you have available so that there is minimal waste of that range.
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Agree completely. But one clarification, the Radiance does not do real time frame by frame tone mapping. It is scene based. I believe MadVR may be similar, but I'm not 100% sure. It analyzes on a frame by frame basis to update the tone map on a scene by scene basis. If you were to do it on a frame by frame basis you'd see too many artifacts. Even Dolby Vision does it this way. They all massage the tone map when a new scene with very different APL is detected. This gives you the most optimization for the amount of dynamic range you have available so that there is minimal waste of that range.
Yes, thanks for the clarification. Thats the way it has to be with MadVR also.

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The 500 nit selection does not apply to SDR2020 output. The display type selections only apply when you are outputting HDR2020 and you have the Optimizer ON.


Its 350 nits at 0 on dynamic range slider on SDR2020 if i remember reading somewhere awhile back. Could be wrong. Regardless Sony + Panasonic works extremely well.


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Official Sony VPL-VW995ES/870ES 4K Laser Owner’s Discussion

Well today I have done more testing. Not sure if you guys have Ghost in the Shell( Scartlett Johasson ) chapter 14 when she is riding to where she remembered where she originally stayed its a dark scene that puts the projector to the test. With Sonys own HDR it has issues where their is too much pixels on the shadow scene. Don't get me wrong it does fine with the rest of the film but that part it struggles. I tried the SDR2020 via the panny great no issues at all. I decided then to turn OFF the the HDR on the Sony and choose BT2020 colour space. The Panasonic is set at HDR BT2020 and Dynamic Range at -6 and Wow no issues at all. I find in some scenes there was more detail ( Don't get me wrong could be me ) but its looks great. I went back to Blade runner 2049 even better ( Much better than Sony own HDR ). I will keep to on that setting for awhile. I even noticed on info Sony recognises it as HDR 10. Any of the Sony members have turned off the HDR on the Sony ?
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post #922 of 1039 Old 06-19-2019, 02:43 AM
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Well today I have done more testing. Not sure if you guys have Ghost in the Shell( Scartlett Johasson ) chapter 14 when she is riding to where she remembered where she originally stayed its a dark scene that puts the projector to the test. With Sonys own HDR it has issues where their is too much pixels on the shadow scene. Don't get me wrong it does fine with the rest of the film but that part it struggles. I tried the SDR2020 via the panny great no issues at all. I decided then to turn OFF the the HDR on the Sony and choose BT2020 colour space. The Panasonic is set at HDR BT2020 and Dynamic Range at -6 and Wow no issues at all. I find in some scenes there was more detail ( Don't get me wrong could be me ) but its looks great. I went back to Blade runner 2049 even better ( Much better than Sony own HDR ). I will keep to on that setting for awhile. I even noticed on info Sony recognises it as HDR 10. Any of the Sony members have turned off the HDR on the Sony ?
Hi.
I will give that a go later.

Just to clarify, you are suggesting HDR 2020 on the Panny but HDR 'off' on the projector?

Also, your Dynamic Range (Is that the same as the luminance setting?) setting of -6 will be contingent to a large degree on your environment/throw distance/zoom etc and may not translate to anyone else.

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post #923 of 1039 Old 06-19-2019, 02:44 AM
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Well today I have done more testing. Not sure if you guys have Ghost in the Shell( Scartlett Johasson ) chapter 14 when she is riding to where she remembered where she originally stayed its a dark scene that puts the projector to the test. With Sonys own HDR it has issues where their is too much pixels on the shadow scene. Don't get me wrong it does fine with the rest of the film but that part it struggles. I tried the SDR2020 via the panny great no issues at all. I decided then to turn OFF the the HDR on the Sony and choose BT2020 colour space. The Panasonic is set at HDR BT2020 and Dynamic Range at -6 and Wow no issues at all. I find in some scenes there was more detail ( Don't get me wrong could be me ) but its looks great. I went back to Blade runner 2049 even better ( Much better than Sony own HDR ). I will keep to on that setting for awhile. I even noticed on info Sony recognises it as HDR 10. Any of the Sony members have turned off the HDR on the Sony ?
Hi.
I will give that a go later.

Just to clarify, you are suggesting HDR 2020 on the Panny but HDR 'off' on the projector?

Also, your Dynamic Range (Is that the same as the luminance setting?) setting of -6 will be contingent to a large degree on your environment/throw distance/zoom etc and may not translate to anyone else.

All this would be a lot less hassle for me to test if I didn't constantly get handshaking issues on my SC-LX901 RE AVR with 4K inputs.....

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post #924 of 1039 Old 06-19-2019, 02:55 AM
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Hi.

I will give that a go later.



Just to clarify, you are suggesting HDR 2020 on the Panny but HDR 'off' on the projector?



Also, your Dynamic Range (Is that the same as the luminance setting?) setting of -6 will be contingent to a large degree on your environment/throw distance/zoom etc and may not translate to anyone else.



All this would be a lot less hassle for me to test if I didn't constantly get handshaking issues on my SC-LX901 RE AVR with 4K inputs.....


And choose colour space bt2020 on the Sony as well. It looks magnificent, trying black panther right know and it looks awesome.
Regarding dynamic range choose the right one that suits your environment. Mine is -6 ive tried a number of films and wow.

Edit: when watching UHD you cant touch luminance on the panasonic.


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post #925 of 1039 Old 06-19-2019, 02:59 AM
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As you can see it pick it up as HDR 10.


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post #926 of 1039 Old 06-19-2019, 03:38 AM
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Spoiler!

As you can see it pick it up as HDR 10.


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Okay, so let me get this straight:

HDR BT2020 on the Panasonic, 500nit (high luminance projector setting. Sliders to be determined by individual/environment).

HDR off and BT2020 selected on the projector on whichever preset is used for UHD.

Have I missed anything?

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post #927 of 1039 Old 06-19-2019, 03:41 AM
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Okay, so let me get this straight:

HDR BT2020 on the Panasonic, 500nit (high luminance projector setting. Sliders to be determined by individual/environment.

HDR off and BT2020 selected on the projector on whichever preset is used for UHD.

Have I missed anything?
Nope you have missed nothing. Give it a try. Try at -5 on the dynamic ranger first and go from there.
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post #928 of 1039 Old 06-19-2019, 03:47 AM
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Nope you have missed nothing. Give it a try. Try at -5 on the dynamic ranger first and go from there.
Just listening to some Zero 7 (Simple Things) on vinyl at the moment, so will try it later.
A very relaxing listen. Destiny is my favourite track on this album.

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post #929 of 1039 Old 06-19-2019, 03:49 AM
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Just listening to some Zero 7 (Simple Things) on vinyl at the moment, so will try it later.
A very relaxing listen. Destiny is my favourite track on this album.
Never heard of Zero 7 sorry.

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post #930 of 1039 Old 06-19-2019, 03:57 AM
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Never heard of Zero 7 sorry.
I figured you may not have. They are but a couple of clicks away if you are curious.

I know this is an off topic digression but I can easily doze off to this stuff. 'Out of town' is so good for letting the mind wander and as we have now found out daydreaming is good for your health.

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