Official Sony VPL-VW995ES/870ES 4K Laser Owner’s Discussion - Page 38 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1111 of 1263 Old 09-21-2019, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Are we talking about the same thing here? I was referring to the panasonic bluray player, not their TV lineup...
I believe so. The 4k players (well, higher models anyway) have the HCX processor.

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post #1112 of 1263 Old 09-24-2019, 03:29 AM
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Watched Looper last night on Blu ray and the RC gave the option database Mastered in 4K as it was a Sony disc and it looked awesome. So I have to say I’m wrong in getting rid of RC it actually does quite an impressive job on Blu ray.


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post #1113 of 1263 Old 09-24-2019, 03:44 AM
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RC is one of the main features of Sony projectors. For Blu Ray and Blu Ray 3D I would even go as far to call it obligatory
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post #1114 of 1263 Old 09-24-2019, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
RC is one of the main features of Sony projectors. For Blu Ray and Blu Ray 3D I would even go as far to call it obligatory


I have to agree it does make it look good .


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post #1115 of 1263 Old 09-24-2019, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
Watched Looper last night on Blu ray and the RC gave the option database Mastered in 4K as it was a Sony disc and it looked awesome. So I have to say I’m wrong in getting rid of RC it actually does quite an impressive job on Blu ray.


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Can I ask how you got your Panasonic to output 1080p to get that option to show up?
The Panny's upscale everything to 4K by default and with no source direct, I cannot get mine to offer the option for 'Mastered in 4K' since I got rid of my Oppo 203.

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post #1116 of 1263 Old 09-24-2019, 04:00 AM
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Official Sony VPL-VW995ES/870ES 4K Laser Owner’s Discussion

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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Can I ask how you got your Panasonic to output 1080p to get that option to show up?

The Panny's upscale everything to 4K by default and with no source direct, I cannot get mine to offer the option for 'Mastered in 4K' since I got rid of my Oppo 203.


I used my Sony BDP5000ES blu ray player. I let the Sony proj do the upscaling and it did a great job

I have a lot of Region A movies so I had to rip out the Sony from storage


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post #1117 of 1263 Old 09-24-2019, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
I used my Sony BDP5000ES blu ray player. I let the Sony proj do the upscaling and it did a great job

I have a lot of Region A movies so I had to rip out the Sony from storage


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Gotcha. Makes sense now.
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post #1118 of 1263 Old 09-26-2019, 12:13 PM
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Sony needs to take a look outside every now and then to see what the competition is doing. They certainly need to wake up.


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Sony have been both innovators and leaders when it comes to technology, in nearly every important area. They have be leading the pack for years, so I'll give them some slack for not being first this time around. I cannot disagree that dynamic tone mapping ( DTM) should have been part of the current laser line up but to be honest I'm not sure a solution was really available that would work within the framework considering the amount of processing power available. Also, before you say JVC has a DTM solution, lets first see it out there and running , then have it compared to what is available aftermarket from Lumagen and Envy as most anticipate those solutions will have better results . Another consideration when adding any downstream updates with limited processing , what other features will be disabled or neutered in the process, that remains to be seen. Sony doesn't do everything right, no manufacturer does, one thing they cannot be accused of is being behind the eight ball, for technology advancements they are not only innovators, they are usually leaders. Lets also not forget the horrible HDR solutions from all manufacturers over the last number of years, that was a disaster and is really still not "the best" solution , again aftermarket had to fill in the gaps. As I recall many were excited about the HDR firmware updates , most of those solutions simply went from horrible to bad , acceptable only just happened . For HDR, when it was marketed to us, I really think the manufacturers failed, it was supposed to work and it did not . DTM was never really promised, that was done aftermarket , manufacturers are now trying to offer a bandaid solution after the horse has left the barn. At least they are listening and paying attention, our words don't go on deaf ears ,so lets hope the on-board solutions are better than many anticipate. For the price we pay for these projectors, especially flagship level, we should not have to find aftermarket solutions for features they market , this is where they have failed and should be accountable for . Bottom line, don't release the model until it's working as advertised, updates should be for simple not essential features not the key features but it gives them the ability to introduce product to market knowing they can patch up deficits which some manufacturers rely on too much these days .
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post #1119 of 1263 Old 09-26-2019, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Also, before you say JVC has a DTM solution, lets first see it out there and running , then have it compared to what is available aftermarket from Lumagen and Envy as most anticipate those solutions will have better results
Definitely agree due to the processing power I’ve been told about the envy and the lumagen. But then again I’ve not yet seen the DTM at work on either of those products and will be curious to read on how they compare with the JVC.


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DTM was never really promised, that was done aftermarket , manufacturers are now trying to offer a bandaid solution after the horse has left the barn. At least they are listening and paying attention, our words don't go on deaf ears ,so lets hope the on-board solutions are better than many anticipate. For the price we pay for these projectors, especially flagship level, we should not have to find aftermarket solutions for features they market , this is where they have failed and should be accountable for .

Your right DTM was never promised and wasnt really on the table for Sony but after JVC started to push ahead with these upgrades ( maybe they did this after the issues they were having with the NX series ) Sony started to listen.....Hopefully. I think we won’t know until next year or even the year after.

They might even come with a board replacement offering HDMI 2.1 and DTM for there current laser projectors.


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post #1120 of 1263 Old 09-27-2019, 06:29 AM
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Definitely agree due to the processing power I’ve been told about the envy and the lumagen. But then again I’ve not yet seen the DTM at work on either of those products and will be curious to read on how they compare with the JVC.





Your right DTM was never promised and wasnt really on the table for Sony but after JVC started to push ahead with these upgrades ( maybe they did this after the issues they were having with the NX series ) Sony started to listen.....Hopefully. I think we won’t know until next year or even the year after.

They might even come with a board replacement offering HDMI 2.1 and DTM for there current laser projectors.


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TGIF!! Yes indeed, it will be interesting to see what JVC does with DTM , likewise with Sony once they offer something. I have the Lumagen Pro, used this with a JVC RS600, Sony VW675 and then the VW885 . Now I have the VW5000, when I updated the Lumagen firmware with dynamic tone mapping ( DTM) the improvement was instantly realized and truly spectacular, from what I have read the Envy is as good or better, time will tell. Whatever the DTM solution is within the projector, I can only hope it is adequate, otherwise, why possibly water down other features for a mediocre DTM solution. DTM and HDR go hand in hand, every projector should have the best solution on board IMHO , for what these projectors cost, that part just boggles the mind.



Personally, I expect the Envy and Lumagen to remain best in class solutions for DTM , simply because of the vast amount of processing power required to get the job done effectively. If the Envy and Lumagen doesn't pull ahead significantly for DTM their high price is going to become a tough sell .



Not sure you'll see any board upgrades, it stifles future sales . Any improvements for processing I would expect to come in the next crop of projectors. Other than 8K and HDMI 2.1 the current crop of projectors are pretty darn good especially with the updates, I'd say I'm set up for a few years this time around, then again, who knows what's on the horizon. Unfortunately I have a weakness for new tech, I definitely have bleeding edge syndrome.

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post #1121 of 1263 Old 09-27-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
TGIF!!
Personally, I expect the Envy and Lumagen to remain best in class solutions for DTM , simply because of the vast amount of processing power required to get the job done effectively. If the Envy and Lumagen doesn't pull ahead significantly for DTM their high price is going to become a tough sell .
As per Envy guys their PC has teraflops of power so in terms of power their is no comparison with the Lumagen FPGA.
How powerful is the Lumagen FPGA?

But (price aside) the proof is in the pudding - if Lumagen has much less processing power and can get to say 99% of Envy picture quality or even more then that is all is needed.
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post #1122 of 1263 Old 09-27-2019, 10:26 AM
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As per Envy guys their PC has teraflops of power so in terms of power their is no comparison with the Lumagen FPGA.
How powerful is the Lumagen FPGA?

But (price aside) the proof is in the pudding - if Lumagen has much less processing power and can get to say 99% of Envy picture quality or even more then that is all is needed.
This is a game of inches now. I saw the JVC tone mapping at CEDIA and it was good and makes a difference that JVC owners will like. BUT it is not MadVR(which I have), Lumagen or Envy. It also FREE not $5000. I really do not think any comparison is fair between the Free and $5000 because the $5000 had better kill it. Also the up-scaling of these products is as much important as tone mapping.

I am sure Sony in future models will upgrade the processing and have something. Really the Sony JVC thing is just a matter of taste, they are both great, outside of the US. In the US for me Sony is just way overpriced.
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post #1123 of 1263 Old 09-27-2019, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
As per Envy guys their PC has teraflops of power so in terms of power their is no comparison with the Lumagen FPGA.
How powerful is the Lumagen FPGA?

But (price aside) the proof is in the pudding - if Lumagen has much less processing power and can get to say 99% of Envy picture quality or even more then that is all is needed.

I have followed a little of the discussions regarding the Envy, apparently it does have an advantage in the processing dept, I guess we shall see how that translates to real world viewing when these have been compared. The Lumagen does an incredible job for sure, if the Envy can improve on this , terrific. Like all AV equipment I look at it with an open mind, if the price point to features align and I have confidence in the manufacturer I'll consider a purchase, I'm not loyal to any brand. I don't want to turn this into a Envy vs Lumagen debate, but for me personally, the Envy will have to be one remarkable product for me to consider a swap at this point. One thing for sure, both the Envy and Lumagen must prove better than DTM solutions being offered with projectors, and by a considerable margin, otherwise the consumer will not be interested . I've owned a Lumagen Pro four years I do believe, it allowed upgrades to change I/O cards from 9Ghz to 18Ghz, firmware has added and improved key features to support all current standards. The Envy will need to do the same at the very least because in my opinion, it's probably one of the most attractive features . I've gone through four projectors and three SSP's, the Lumagen is still the original , if I had to replace this three times to keep up, that would be very expensive .

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post #1124 of 1263 Old 09-27-2019, 11:23 AM
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This is a game of inches now. I saw the JVC tone mapping at CEDIA and it was good and makes a difference that JVC owners will like. BUT it is not MadVR(which I have), Lumagen or Envy. It also FREE not $5000. I really do not think any comparison is fair between the Free and $5000 because the $5000 had better kill it. Also the up-scaling of these products is as much important as tone mapping.

I am sure Sony in future models will upgrade the processing and have something. Really the Sony JVC thing is just a matter of taste, they are both great, outside of the US. In the US for me Sony is just way overpriced.


That's the other thing, both the Lumagen and Envy will have many other equally important features such as up-scaling , precision 3D lut calibration and so on. Fair or not DTM on-board vs external will be compared, this will determine if the consumer would like an aftermarket solution to improve on what is included, as you have already experienced and confirmed, as many expected, aftermarket DTM is better.



Pricing is another story as well, other than the VW885, Sony pricing is on par or lower than other countries for most of their lineup. JVC OTOH is higher priced across the range in many countries , people still buy those because of their preference . The VW885 was oversold in North America to the point where individuals had to wait months in queue because everything in stock sold immediately, demand was really high. Comparing to other flagship models it was more than capable of matching performance for most features , exceeding in many others, so despite this monetary disparity many liked the features to price more than the alternatives, buyers once again had preferences/tastes that others alternatives did not fulfil . As you said, "it's a matter of taste," money is not the only criteria.

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post #1125 of 1263 Old 09-27-2019, 02:07 PM
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As per Envy guys their PC has teraflops of power so in terms of power their is no comparison with the Lumagen FPGA.
How powerful is the Lumagen FPGA?

But (price aside) the proof is in the pudding - if Lumagen has much less processing power and can get to say 99% of Envy picture quality or even more then that is all is needed.
I have read the flagship Envy is about 10 tflops, while the base model is about half that... so about 5 tflops. This is significant processing power, when also considering the cpu is not even breaking a sweat. In comparison, the super powerful PS5 and Xbox 2X are reported to have about 13+ tflops in power with a cpu that will likely have a higher clock and will be pushed significantly harder. The 10 tflops version of the Envy can have more features/algorithms running with higher settings. The additional tflops of the flagship Envy and large price increase is there to create better picture quality, but it’s a sliding slope as the last 5% will really cost you. The base model should be more than good enough for most (me). I have looked and can find no tfop ratings for the Lumagen Pro. Considering the Lumagen’s age my guess would be around 2 tflops, but I could be wrong. It could be higher. I would really like to know for curiosity sake.
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post #1126 of 1263 Old 09-27-2019, 03:33 PM
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They might even come with a board replacement offering HDMI 2.1 and DTM for there current laser projectors.
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post #1127 of 1263 Old 09-27-2019, 03:37 PM
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I have read the flagship Envy is about 10 tflops, while the base model is about half that... so about 5 tflops. This is significant processing power, when also considering the cpu is not even breaking a sweat. In comparison, the super powerful PS5 and Xbox 2X are reported to have about 13+ tflops in power with a cpu that will likely have a higher clock and will be pushed significantly harder. The 10 tflops version of the Envy can have more features/algorithms running with higher settings. The additional tflops of the flagship Envy and large price increase is there to create better picture quality, but it’s a sliding slope as the last 5% will really cost you. The base model should be more than good enough for most (me). I have looked and can find no tfop ratings for the Lumagen Pro. Considering the Lumagen’s age my guess would be around 2 tflops, but I could be wrong. It could be higher. I would really like to know for curiosity sake.
The more I think about it, the more I feel 10k is simply not worth it to keep pausing movies to see if the highlights and shadow detail have avoided a bit of clipping....

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post #1128 of 1263 Old 09-27-2019, 04:48 PM
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The more I think about it, the more I feel 10k is simply not worth it to keep pausing movies to see if the highlights and shadow detail have avoided a bit of clipping....
Yeah, if 10k was the only model I would pass. The 5k model is tempting, but the results will have to be fairly obvious when the image is in motion. I have never been into slide projectors.
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post #1129 of 1263 Old 09-27-2019, 05:31 PM
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The more I think about it, the more I feel 10k is simply not worth it to keep pausing movies to see if the highlights and shadow detail have avoided a bit of clipping....
Dynamic tone mapping has nothing to do with clipping in highlights. It is all about not sacrificing dynamic range for the bright scenes when you're watching the dark ones (you know, the ones that make up the majority of motion pictures). Once you get used to watching dynamic tone mapping, static starts to look drab and ugly. It is all about what you're used to.
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post #1130 of 1263 Old 09-27-2019, 06:15 PM
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Yeah, if 10k was the only model I would pass. The 5k model is tempting, but the results will have to be fairly obvious when the image is in motion. I have never been into slide projectors.


If the $5K one is priced $5K in Australia then i might be interested but after the conversion rate & taxes we might be paying close to what the pro is for a base model. Hopefully they can work something for us Aussie’s


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post #1131 of 1263 Old 09-28-2019, 12:03 AM
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I do not think we can compare the Radiance pro series to the Envy series in a simple terme of processing power.
One uses a FPGA which implies a dedicated optimized code, the other depends on Nvidia routines.
Basically one requires a light code therefore less processing power (no OS, no drivers etc.).
The other requires an optimized code dependant of OS and other layers, therefore more processing power.

In the end, one will likely get to its limits and will implies a complete new hardware.
Envy can virtually evol with no limits has PC hardware will offer more and more processing power, which current situation seems to give this processor more free ressources in order to upgrade further. But this all depends on how the code rely on routines and how heavy it is because of the OS environnement.

My consideration won't focus only on the processing power, ease of use, nice GUI and performance of the algorithmes.
I will also consider the number of I/O, memory banks and the number of 3D LUT that should be usable.
Currently Envy is all wrong about that.
Along with recent JVC DTM integration, this shows that DTM may not need the power from a $2K Nvidia card.

I do believe that DTM is the only way for proper PJ HDR.
All highend units will need it and the time is now!
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post #1132 of 1263 Old 09-28-2019, 04:23 AM
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The topic above was processing power, so it was discussed. As you mentioned there is a long list of other factors that make the Envy a very attractive VP.
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post #1133 of 1263 Old 09-28-2019, 04:24 AM
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I do not think we can compare the Radiance pro series to the Envy series in a simple terme of processing power.
One uses a FPGA which implies a dedicated optimized code, the other depends on Nvidia routines.
Basically one requires a light code therefore less processing power (no OS, no drivers etc.).
The other requires an optimized code dependant of OS and other layers, therefore more processing power.

In the end, one will likely get to its limits and will implies a complete new hardware.
Envy can virtually evol with no limits has PC hardware will offer more and more processing power, which current situation seems to give this processor more free ressources in order to upgrade further. But this all depends on how the code rely on routines and how heavy it is because of the OS environnement.

My consideration won't focus only on the processing power, ease of use, nice GUI and performance of the algorithmes.
I will also consider the number of I/O, memory banks and the number of 3D LUT that should be usable.
Currently Envy is all wrong about that.
Along with recent JVC DTM integration, this shows that DTM may not need the power from a $2K Nvidia card.

I do believe that DTM is the only way for proper PJ HDR.
All highend units will need it and the time is now!

I don't think anyone will argue DTM is the only way for proper PJ HDR, once you have experienced the difference between static and dynamic, there is no going back. For the average consumer , not sure they will care about the architecture inside the Envy , Lumagen or the speed, for most they will want to know that it improves the image, how it compares to other options, and most of all the price . For the price the Lumagen and Envy are asking , these devices will become a niche product for those with the money and inclination for that small advantage, everyone else will be happy with the on-board solutions, JVC will have this available soon I expect. I believe Sony will have to respond with a firmware update for DTM, otherwise they will loose out on a lot of sales for this coming year. Without new models to market the only selling advantage will be their offerings through firmware, DTM is a big one.
The Envy vs Lumagen will certainly be interesting as it unfolds, both are very expensive, have similarities and many differences too. The end user will have a choice, just like all other AV equipment, personal taste and feature sets will help them make a choice. You can be guaranteed fanboys will polarize the differences to justify they have the best, salesmen and reviewers will also interject to skew your choice , the very reason there is so much conflict.
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post #1134 of 1263 Old 09-28-2019, 04:42 AM
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I don't think anyone will argue DTM is the only way for proper PJ HDR, once you have experienced the difference between static and dynamic, there is no going back. For the average consumer , not sure they will care about the architecture inside the Envy , Lumagen or the speed, for most they will want to know that it improves the image, how it compares to other options, and most of all the price . For the price the Lumagen and Envy are asking , these devices will become a niche product for those with the money and inclination for that small advantage, everyone else will be happy with the on-board solutions, JVC will have this available soon I expect. I believe Sony will have to respond with a firmware update for DTM, otherwise they will loose out on a lot of sales for this coming year. Without new models to market the only selling advantage will be their offerings through firmware, DTM is a big one.
A loaded Lumagen Pro costs approx $8,500. If the Envy, when placed side by side with a Lumagen Pro, and markedly beats it in image quality (DTM, upscaling, debanding, noise reduction, perhaps powerful new motion algorithms etc... ) then it should sell it self. If it doesn’t, then it will sink into oblivion as there will be little to no ship jumpers who will give up their tried and true VP. To bring the Envy to market at these prices, I am willing to bet the former is the case. The Envy has to pull ahead in performance by a fair margin. It’s a niche product as it is, and with a 4 years newer platform it has to up the bar to succeed.
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post #1135 of 1263 Old 09-28-2019, 04:46 AM
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A loaded Lumagen allows multi input / output where the Envy is limited to 1 input / output (which is a mistake in my opinion, regardless the possibility to plug it to an avr). We don't talk about the same products here ...
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post #1136 of 1263 Old 09-28-2019, 04:51 AM
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I (and many) don’t mind virtual inputs/outputs, but some do. For those that mind, it’s a no brainer to go with a Lumagen. When we see how the virtual inputs/outputs work, many will likely not be as bothered as they are now. Time will tell.
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post #1137 of 1263 Old 09-28-2019, 05:24 AM
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Dynamic tone mapping has nothing to do with clipping in highlights. It is all about not sacrificing dynamic range for the bright scenes when you're watching the dark ones (you know, the ones that make up the majority of motion pictures). Once you get used to watching dynamic tone mapping, static starts to look drab and ugly. It is all about what you're used to.
Isn't any tone mapping supposed to be compensating for the lack of needed brightness in ANY display by using the available brightness to maximum extent? (which will mean some clipping, to some greater or lesser extent).
And that means for (in the main) brightness limited projectors, the bright and dark parts of the image will be first to suffer.

However, yes, I know DTM is designed to make the best of that bad lot and I hope it works well. But I was only saying that I can wait for it until something is included in the display device itself.

Also Dolby Vision has managed to stick its tech in TVs costing just a few hundred quid and therefore if that can be done, then where is the argument for the multi-thousand devices we are hearing about?

Surely if JVC (and soon Sony, so the rumours say) can do DTM that is resident inside a projector, and it is effective, then why pay any more? JVC have set a precedent for giving it away in a firmware. Everyone will now expect the same.

And why not!?

Surely Dolby must be sitting up and thinking about a PJ version of their tech now?

If it can be done for a few hundred sovs, then the argument for any hugely expensive version is lessened. Except for those with deep, deep pockets and those who get pleasure from studying the minutiae of all picture aspects.

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post #1138 of 1263 Old 09-28-2019, 05:34 AM
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A loaded Lumagen allows multi input / output where the Envy is limited to 1 input / output (which is a mistake in my opinion, regardless the possibility to plug it to an avr). We don't talk about the same products here ...

I only use one of the four I/O for my Projector and Audio, many others are the same. That said I do think I would want a couple of I/O slots , hopefully they can build in expandability, for me that would suffice. There will be many contentious features no doubt, we buy what works for our environment and taste , other key features will surely play an integral roll in that decision as well . Personally, I hope both survive , competition is good to drive innovation and keep pricing in check, at least we'll have choices.
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post #1139 of 1263 Old 09-28-2019, 05:37 AM
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I don't think anyone will argue DTM is the only way for proper PJ HDR, once you have experienced the difference between static and dynamic, there is no going back. For the average consumer , not sure they will care about the architecture inside the Envy , Lumagen or the speed, for most they will want to know that it improves the image, how it compares to other options, and most of all the price . For the price the Lumagen and Envy are asking , these devices will become a niche product for those with the money and inclination for that small advantage, everyone else will be happy with the on-board solutions, JVC will have this available soon I expect. I believe Sony will have to respond with a firmware update for DTM, otherwise they will loose out on a lot of sales for this coming year. Without new models to market the only selling advantage will be their offerings through firmware, DTM is a big one.
The Envy vs Lumagen will certainly be interesting as it unfolds, both are very expensive, have similarities and many differences too. The end user will have a choice, just like all other AV equipment, personal taste and feature sets will help them make a choice. You can be guaranteed fanboys will polarize the differences to justify they have the best, salesmen and reviewers will also interject to skew your choice , the very reason there is so much conflict.
Everyone who currently has a Lumagen with DTM is raving about how good it looks. Just from that alone, one might ask why would anything need more processing power when what is already out there is doing a stellar job?

This is firmly in diminishing returns territory as far as these high end VP's go, like back when PCs finally got so quick at tasks, that the next iteration (which was xx times faster) made no difference in real life as one couldn't even perceive the difference.

I will be as interested as the next guy to see how the Lumey stacks up against the Envy, but even if the differences are there, to what extent will one image be better than the other one in real terms?

Also, as a free PC based solution MadVR makes much more sense as it can scale as people update their PCs, but this standalone model is costing much, much more than a PC that can do the same thing. One could say there has been enough processing power to do DTM justice for quite a while now.

To me the best way would be to minimise the processing power needed by efficiency and lean and mean code. Come on Sony, you know you can do it!

LOL, if only NASA was into DTM!

Interesting times!

Edited to add: In this day and age, one crucial question has to be, what is the power consumption figures of the Lumey and the Envy? If one requires it's own power station then that alone is a minus point.

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post #1140 of 1263 Old 09-28-2019, 06:02 AM
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Yes, but the madVR PC solution does not help you with ALL sources, as does the Envy. Also the Envy will assuredly bring a more stable and dependable performance platform. There is a benefit when there are only 2 variants of the hardware running/supported on (Linux ?) operating system. Instead of the infinite variants that occur in the PC universe, which is undoubtedly more unstable and of higher maintenance. Sort of like comparing the stability and ease of use between a PC gaming rig and an Xbox One X. That’s what really sets the Envy apart.

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