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post #1 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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2019 'Free' Video Upgrade 'Sit Closer'

Happy New Year To All.

After my ATMOS Upgrade in 2017 and 4K Video Upgrade with 14 foot wide ST100 AT Screen in 2018 – I am very satisfied with the audio (Thanks Adam and Erskine Group) and the video of my room.
Adding of the DCR Paladin A Lens was a home run for Video – I am still mesmerized with this Add and how film like the picture is.
This year if a better performing projector becomes available like the rumored 8000 Lumen Sony Laser which can fit in my hush box without much surgery shows up – that would be a consideration.
Here is a FREE video upgrade I am considering and request the videophiles (or audiophiles) and all here to chime in…
My current front seat row (Where a persons head would be) distance from the screen is about 14.5 feet (See layout pic – Ignore screen size – in the pic is my old 12 foot wide Cinecurve screen):



I plan to move my front row so that it is 11.5 feet (about 3 feet forward) from the screen – this is to get more immersion – what do you guys think? Good move or Bad?

What will happen to the sight lines? Would it be too close or uncomfortable?

Thanks in advance.

Ash
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post #2 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 02:09 PM
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Sorry, but I have a slight off-topic question...

They say that sitting right in the middle of the room is bad for bass as it is supposed to be a null. But how come I see quite a few high-end home theaters where they have some row(s) or even the "main" row right in the middle of the room? How are these setups "avoiding" the bass null?
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post #3 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Sorry, but I have a slight off-topic question...

They say that sitting right in the middle of the room is bad for bass as it is supposed to be a null. But how come I see quite a few high-end home theaters where they have some row(s) or even the "main" row right in the middle of the room? How are these setups "avoiding" the bass null?
@appelz can best respond - he is my Audio Calibrator - If I decide to move the chairs - he would need to come back and recalibrate by room :-)
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post #4 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Sorry, but I have a slight off-topic question...

They say that sitting right in the middle of the room is bad for bass as it is supposed to be a null. But how come I see quite a few high-end home theaters where they have some row(s) or even the "main" row right in the middle of the room? How are these setups "avoiding" the bass null?
You are correct. Middle of the room, along with 1/4 lengths/widths are less than optimal seating positions due to modal issues, resulting in peaks and nulls at frequencies dependent upon the room dimensions. The peaks can be tamed by proper subwoofer placement of course, and it is the ringing/modal decay problems that are the most audible and offensive. Sometimes something that looks like a null is really just lack of modal support between two peaks. Knock those peaks down, and things sound much better. If following the Welti/Devantier method for multiple subs, you can control several room modes, and set up consistent seat to seat response, so global PEQ can be be effective also.

When looking at room drawings, such as the one Ash posted, make sure you are looking at total room depth. If you look at the screen wall, his seating does appear to be middle of the room, but are actually properly placed. I'd have to pull up his as-built drawings to see if moving his seating forward is a good idea acoustically. I would find his proposed seating placement a little too close for my tastes. SMPTE THX CEDIA etc reference seating distances are all around 43° to 50° or so. At close to 1:1, his current viewing angle for 2.39 is pretty close to 50°.

I don't think I would recommend moving the seating closer. It would put the seats very close to the middle of the room, video angle would get getting close to minimum recommended, and I believe the 3D audio immersion would suffer as well, unless the columns hiding the speakers were also moved forward.

Adam Pelz ,Acoustic Mafia - Hear No Evil
JBL Master ARCOS Calibrator, CEDIA Designer, Home Acoustics Alliance Instructor LIII, THX HT1+ HT2+ Video
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post #5 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 04:25 PM
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2019 'Free' Video Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Happy New Year To All.



After my ATMOS Upgrade in 2017 and 4K Video Upgrade with 14 foot wide ST100 AT Screen in 2018 – I am very satisfied with the audio (Thanks Adam and Erskine Group) and the video of my room.

Adding of the DCR Paladin A Lens was a home run for Video – I am still mesmerized with this Add and how film like the picture is.

This year if a better performing projector becomes available like the rumored 8000 Lumen Sony Laser which can fit in my hush box without much surgery shows up – that would be a consideration.

Here is a FREE video upgrade I am considering and request the videophiles (or audiophiles) and all here to chime in…

My current front seat row (Where a persons head would be) distance from the screen is about 14.5 feet (See layout pic – Ignore screen size – in the pic is my old 12 foot wide Cinecurve screen):







I plan to move my front row so that it is 11.5 feet (about 3 feet forward) from the screen – this is to get more immersion – what do you guys think? Good move or Bad?



What will happen to the sight lines? Would it be too close or uncomfortable?



Thanks in advance.



Ash


Hey Ash,

Just from a perspective of seating distances.

My newest theater room has a 17’ wide Vistascope screen. My seating to screen distance is 13’ to the front row and 19’ to the second row.

I actually find I move around some, depending on the quality of content. I can easily watch my 12.5’ wide 16:9 image from my front row. For scope, I sometimes watch the full 17’ wide screen from the front row and sometimes from the second. This really becomes dependent on the quality of the content and how fast things move around.

Art Sonneborn has a 16’ wide Vistascope. If I remember correctly he is between 10-11’ to his front row and around 16-17’ to his second. Originally, I think he had planned to watch 16:9 content from the front row and scope content from the second row, but I think he has found he really enjoys the front row for just about everything. I know he said the front row was very popular at his home theater meet as well.





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post #6 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
I plan to move my front row so that it is 11.5 feet (about 3 feet forward) from the screen – this is to get more immersion – what do you guys think? Good move or Bad?

What will happen to the sight lines? Would it be too close or uncomfortable?

Thanks in advance.

Ash
I think its a great move. You need to be really close to really benefit from the details of native 4K. I started 14 feet from my 135" 16x9. Then I moved to 11 feet. It still wasnt enough. Now I'm 7 feet from the 135" 16x9 and you can see all 4K details very well. The immersion factor is great. I'd get as close as you can get without having to move your head.

My room is 21 feet long. So at 14 feet I was in the perfect 2/3 away bass location. Now I'm in the perfecct 1/3 away bass location.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #7 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post

I don't think I would recommend moving the seating closer. It would put the seats very close to the middle of the room, video angle would get getting close to minimum recommended, and I believe the 3D audio immersion would suffer as well, unless the columns hiding the speakers were also moved forward.
So the consensus building is that get closer to the screen - but Adam who set my audio says it will be bad for audio...
So the question to Adam is that if I do get closer can he do the magic with the Trinnov and the QSC to bring the audio back into the goodness ...
I would love to move the front row closer as I know when I get closer to my 65 inch OLED it is a much better experience than when I sit at a distance.

Thanks @ccool96 and @markmon1 for responding..
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post #8 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
So the consensus building is that get closer to the screen - but Adam who set my audio says it will be bad for audio...
So the question to Adam is that if I do get closer can he do the magic with the Trinnov and the QSC to bring the audio back into the goodness ...
I would love to move the front row closer as I know when I get closer to my 65 inch OLED it is a much better experience than when I sit at a distance.

Thanks @ccool96 and @markmon1 for responding..
You can slide your seating forward and test it. Just go into your receiver and update your speaker distances from your main listening position. You'll be surprised just how little it matters for most the speakers. What might matter is your subwoofer. If you put a near field subwoofer behind your couch firing into your seating (you'll have 3 feet to do so now!) that will solve the subwoofer problems, should they even exist in the first place.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #9 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 05:41 PM
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I went to see 2001 A Space Odyssey at the Navy Pier 4K DCP laser IMAX. I chose a seat just about halfway back and it had the same field of view as my front row watching the UHD of the film... I love it. About 11'4" back from a 16' wide screen...violates SMPTE minimum. If I want I could move to the middle row about 6'6" back but I almost never use it.

Art
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post #10 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
You can slide your seating forward and test it. Just go into your receiver and update your speaker distances from your main listening position. You'll be surprised just how little it matters for most the speakers. What might matter is your subwoofer. If you put a near field subwoofer behind your couch firing into your seating (you'll have 3 feet to do so now!) that will solve the subwoofer problems, should they even exist in the first place.
Thanks for the advice - I can move the front row and try it for sure for Video.
For Audio the system is a little more complicated so I would need my calibrator... and I cannot use the near field Sub as no way to pull wires behind the seats.
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post #11 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
I went to see 2001 A Space Odyssey at the Navy Pier 4K DCP laser IMAX. I chose a seat just about halfway back and it had the same field of view as my front row watching the UHD of the film... I love it. About 11'4" back from a 16' wide screen...violates SMPTE minimum. If I want I could move to the middle row about 6'6" back but I almost never use it.

Art
Art - very tempted after what you are saying.... very very tempted.
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post #12 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Thanks for the advice - I can move the front row and try it for sure for Video.
For Audio the system is a little more complicated so I would need my calibrator... and I cannot use the near field Sub as no way to pull wires behind the seats.
There's always a way. If you have a platform the wires can be hidden between the lower and upper platform, fished under the carpet, etc. It's probably simpler to solve the running of wires for near field subwoofer (if you want) than to re orientate your side speakers. But still, try moving the seating forward and doing nothing different audio wise and run some tests.

You need your calibrator to get into your receiver and set your speaker distances? What receiver / AVR do you have anyway? Is this because you don't know how to do it or do you have some special system that doesn't have speaker distance settings in the AVR menu? On my Anthem, for example, it takes about 3 minutes to get into the menu and adjust *all* the speaker distances by 2-3 feet change. I understand if you want your calibrator to come out and re-adjust all the distances and levels professionally for your new seating position, but you can do some quick and easy testing with out all that.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #13 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
But still, try moving the seating forward and doing nothing different audio wise and run some tests.
Fully agree with you on moving the seats forward and trying - no harm done here..

The audio is another - quite a complicated system - will need Adam to help..

Wiring Diagram of the Audio by Adam :-)

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post #14 of 56 Old 01-01-2019, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by appelz View Post
If you look at the screen wall, his seating does appear to be middle of the room, but are actually properly placed. I'd have to pull up his as-built drawings to see if moving his seating forward is a good idea acoustically. .
Adam - the drawing of the layout is as-built.
The room depth is 26 feet..
The depth from the back wall (where projector is) to the screen is 24 feet (23.5 feet from rear speaker face to screen).
So if the headrest of the middle seat is 14 feet from the screen... then you can do the math.
And where I want to be is 11.5 Feet....
And if this works - it would be a good idea to move the second row forward too - away from the rear wall..
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post #15 of 56 Old 01-02-2019, 06:42 AM
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Do you get free line of sight from second row if you move first row forward?
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post #16 of 56 Old 01-02-2019, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you get free line of sight from second row if you move first row forward?
Good Point... I wish there way a way to draw site lines and check on a drawing (print)..... that would be the best way before I start moving things around.
Now that I think about this - I may move the 2nd row forward also by three feet if it does not cut into the projector image. That may be good for the 2nd Row also as it will get closer to the screen and more in the middle of the room away from the back wall (if it helps audio in second row).
I can put the rear row on a riser also as I can make it higher by half a foot and not affect the image (Heads cutting off the image).
This is quickly becoming a 'Not So Free' video upgrade as once I move the front row and the 2nd row I will have to build a platform for 2nd row seat people to step on.. I am not sure If I will be able to find a carpet matching mine so will have to come up with some ideas - need to hire my Theater Builder - Mr Erskine so that I don't screw up the looks of the theater :-)
And off course that means audio calibration again...which is a cost
We love this hobby - it is a money pit.. especially considering how little I use the theater on a monthly basis.
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post #17 of 56 Old 01-02-2019, 08:24 AM
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I have the same ratio of seating distance to screen width in my new theater row #1 . I've sat in Art's room a number of times in the first row. Rather enjoyable experience. immersive experience. I think whatever the audio drawbacks are balanced by the increased level of immersion...
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #18 of 56 Old 01-02-2019, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
I have the same ratio of seating distance to screen width in my new theater row #1 . I've sat in Art's room a number of times in the first row. Rather enjoyable experience. immersive experience. I think whatever the audio drawbacks are balanced by the increased level of immersion...
Jeff..
So in your new theater - screen size will be 14 feet?
And 1st Row 11.5 Feet from first row?
And second row ??
Thanks.
Ash
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post #19 of 56 Old 01-02-2019, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Jeff..
So in your new theater - screen size will be 14 feet?
And 1st Row 11.5 Feet from first row?
And second row ??
Thanks.
Ash
When using an AT screen, you have the freedom to push the speakers back as much as you want. In my new theater design (with AT screen), the LR speakers are spread 300 cm apart (tweeter midpoint to tweeter midpoint),while the listening distance is 330 cm. Viewing angle on the first row is 60° for 2.35/2.40 material and 48.5° for 1.78 material. On the second row, this is... well, who cares about the second row anyway?
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post #20 of 56 Old 01-02-2019, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Jeff..
So in your new theater - screen size will be 14 feet?
And 1st Row 11.5 Feet from first row?
And second row ??
Thanks.
Ash
I took the liberty to calculate the screen width/viewing distance ratio from some people who responded to your question:

1-Ccool96: 17 feet screen width x 0.76: 13 feet viewing distance (2.40:1 ratio ?)

2-Markmon1: 11,25 feet screen width x 0.62: 7 feet viewing distance (1.78:1 ratio)

3-Art: 16 feet screen width x 0.71: 11,4 feet viewing distance (2.40:1 ratio ??)

4-Holy Grail: 10,7 feet screen width x 0.86: 9,2 feet viewing distance (2.40:1 ratio) (My system is not installed yet, so I might move the seating somewhat closer if I feel the need;-)

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post #21 of 56 Old 01-02-2019, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
When using an AT screen, you have the freedom to push the speakers back as much as you want. In my new theater design (with AT screen), the LR speakers are spread 300 cm apart (tweeter midpoint to tweeter midpoint),while the listening distance is 330 cm. Viewing angle on the first row is 60° for 2.35/2.40 material and 48.5° for 1.78 material. On the second row, this is... well, who cares about the second row anyway?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
I took the liberty to calculate the screen width/viewing distance ratio from some people who responded to your question:

1-Ccool96: 17 feet screen width x 0.76: 13 feet viewing distance (2.40:1 ratio ?)

2-Markmon1: 11,25 feet screen width x 0.62: 7 feet viewing distance (1.78:1 ratio)

3-Art: 16 feet screen width x 0.71: 11,4 feet viewing distance (2.40:1 ratio ??)

4-Holy Grail: 10,7 feet screen width x 0.86: 9,2 feet viewing distance (2.40:1 ratio) (My system is not installed yet, so I might move the seating somewhat closer if I feel the need;-)
Behind the screen I have massive Aerial 20T Speakers - almost no space left...

And at 14 feet wide 2:40 Screen x 0.82 - I will be 11.5 Feet from the screen..

Still not as close as others posting in this thread.
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post #22 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
Hey Ash,

Just from a perspective of seating distances.

My newest theater room has a 17’ wide Vistascope screen. My seating to screen distance is 13’ to the front row and 19’ to the second row.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
I went to see 2001 A Space Odyssey at the Navy Pier 4K DCP laser IMAX. I chose a seat just about halfway back and it had the same field of view as my front row watching the UHD of the film... I love it. About 11'4" back from a 16' wide screen...violates SMPTE minimum. If I want I could move to the middle row about 6'6" back but I almost never use it.

Art
Chris - Art,
We moved the front row... loving it...
Question - when you say 13 feet or 11.4 feet from screen - do you mean from screen to where the head of the person sitting is this distance>

And when you say 6.6 feet between 1st row and 2nd - does it mean from the head of the person in first row to the head of the person in 2nd row...

Details Details....

Thanks in advance.
Ash
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post #23 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Chris - Art,
We moved the front row... loving it...
Question - when you say 13 feet or 11.4 feet from screen - do you mean from screen to where the head of the person sitting is this distance>

And when you say 6.6 feet between 1st row and 2nd - does it mean from the head of the person in first row to the head of the person in 2nd row...

Details Details....

Thanks in advance.
Ash
Exactly, this is from the front of my face to the screen surface in each row. I was surprised to find at my last meet that any of the old guard who were in attendance went for the front row for the demos. I am not advocating sitting this close as being right for everyone but I certainly have enjoyed it.

Art
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post #24 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Exactly, this is from the front of my face to the screen surface in each row. I was surprised to find at my last meet that any of the old guard who were in attendance went for the front row for the demos. I am not advocating sitting this close as being right for everyone but I certainly have enjoyed it.

Art
Art,
Thank you...
And I am loving the immersion... as if I have a whole new theater.
I did notice moving between row 1 and 2 that row 1 is now excessively boomy (bass) in Row 1- used Fury Road to test... so Adam is right about audio getting affected.
But the funny part is that with sitting close to the screen and boominess - there is a lot of movie magic (dramatic) although not as per SMPTE etc..
The 2nd row sounds perfect no boominess at all and perfect sound - I am shocked how moving the front seat by three feet (forward) has such a huge impact on audio.
But I am hoping Adam will be able to help me with the audio - and make it the best compromise.
I am now thinking that the 'pit' I have created between row 1 and 2 - I could add bass traps after consulting with Adam if they will help..- and put the 2nd row on a riser...
Here we go again - I had promised myself no messing around with my room in 2019 - this never ends.
Ash
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post #25 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 08:19 AM
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Art,
Thank you...
And I am loving the immersion... as if I have a whole new theater.
I did notice moving between row 1 and 2 that row 1 is now excessively boomy (bass) in Row 1- used Fury Road to test... so Adam is right about audio getting affected.
But the funny part is that with sitting close to the screen and boominess - there is a lot of movie magic (dramatic) although not as per SMPTE etc..
The 2nd row sounds perfect no boominess at all and perfect sound - I am shocked how moving the front seat by three feet (forward) has such a huge impact on audio.
But I am hoping Adam will be able to help me with the audio - and make it the best compromise.
I am now thinking that the 'pit' I have created between row 1 and 2 - I could add bass traps after consulting with Adam if they will help..- and put the 2nd row on a riser...
Here we go again - I had promised myself no messing around with my room in 2019 - this never ends.
Ash

Ash,

I think that the "it never ends" part is what makes it a hobby. I use the room just about every weekend and quite a bit too. I enjoy what I have now as I research the next thing. I hope the changes never end .

Art
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post #26 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Ash,

I think that the "it never ends" part is what makes it a hobby. I use the room just about every weekend and quite a bit too. I enjoy what I have now as I research the next thing. I hope the changes never end .

Art
It is journey..... I have had a number of hobbies over the years and as I got older I dropped them one by one.
But this one I get more into it as I move forward - it will be a sad day when I lose interest in this one.
Happy New Year to you and thanks for raising the bar for all here over the years.
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post #27 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 10:30 AM
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Everyone is moving their seating or thinking about it.

I took another approach and went with a stealth screen and simply use the zoom to change my virtual seating distance. I sometimes do this several times in an evening depending on who I’m watching with and their liked level of immersion and also the content being watched.

I brought it up in the CIH forum and it wasn’t very well received. It’s just so much easier to change the image than the seats, plus the audio doesn’t move around.

Bud
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post #28 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 10:40 AM
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It is journey..... I have had a number of hobbies over the years and as I got older I dropped them one by one.
But this one I get more into it as I move forward - it will be a sad day when I lose interest in this one.
Happy New Year to you and thanks for raising the bar for all here over the years.

Ash raising six children this has been my only hobby; thanks for the vote but people like Alan, Dennis,Chris, Mark, Ken and Wolfgang deserve more credit. I just keep looking.
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post #29 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 11:40 AM
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Everyone is moving their seating or thinking about it.

I took another approach and went with a stealth screen and simply use the zoom to change my virtual seating distance. I sometimes do this several times in an evening depending on who I’m watching with and their liked level of immersion and also the content being watched.

I brought it up in the CIH forum and it wasn’t very well received. It’s just so much easier to change the image than the seats, plus the audio doesn’t move around.

Another way (although very expensive) to achieve is to use a 4-way masking screen...
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post #30 of 56 Old 01-06-2019, 11:42 AM
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Behind the screen I have massive Aerial 20T Speakers - almost no space left...

And at 14 feet wide 2:40 Screen x 0.82 - I will be 11.5 Feet from the screen..

Still not as close as others posting in this thread.
There's a simple solution for that: if you move the screen further into the room, you create more space behind the screen to move the speakers forwards and backwards...

However, this eats space from the rest of your theater...
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