Sony VPL-VW995ES/870ES Projector | In Depth Scientific Analysis & Comparison Thread - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 160 Old 04-05-2019, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I have already posted my review on the 2019 Projector Comparison thread.

I am not sure how to link to a specific post, but here's the thread (one of the newest post, go up a few):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...-new-post.html
Hi coolgeek, please copy your very insightful comparison review here also so it won’t disappear in the other, very long thread

You will get more likes here, as you deserve
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post #152 of 160 Old 04-05-2019, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
Hi coolgeek, please copy your very insightful comparison review here also so it won’t disappear in the other, very long thread

You will get more likes here, as you deserve

@coolgeek I agree, post it here , if fact this is the link you gave me , I do believe this is where you actually intended to put your review/comparison. It is the VW995/VW885 comparison thread the othe is more general for all projectors 2019.
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post #153 of 160 Old 04-05-2019, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Sony had an official launch of their laser projectors in my country last week. I asked them directly and they told me that starting from the 760 onwards all are new SXRD panels.

They did keep their word and gave me the projectors (both the 760 and the 870) to check out after the event... it arrived today. I am still going thru my content.


Hmmm, I wonder what improvements were made to the SXRD panels that would characterize these as "all new design." Would be interesting to know what was done , it's not something they advertised that I'm aware of . Well, they did have something on their site about the same as I recall, contrast improvement was the key feature I do believe, not sure, I'm going from memory . Next thing I want to know is , where do you live? Sony actually gave you a 760 and 870 to play with at home? Holy smokes, that's not a typical situation from most countries I know of, that is about $60,000 worth of product based on MSRP, I assume you have one very honest face .
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post #154 of 160 Old 04-07-2019, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Holy Grail View Post
Any VPL-VW995ES/870 ES users out there who combine their PJ with the Panasonic 4K 820 or 9000?

If so, I would be interested to learn which settings on the Panny to use to squeeze the best performance of the Sony...
This is what trying to find out myself but then I read in kris review that Sony have fine tuned the tone mapping on the 870ES. Im going to give it a go on my Oppo203 running source direct and on the penny HDR2020 for awhile to see how it all goes. Too be honest I do like what I see

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post #155 of 160 Old 04-07-2019, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Hmmm, I wonder what improvements were made to the SXRD panels that would characterize these as "all new design." Would be interesting to know what was done , it's not something they advertised that I'm aware of . Well, they did have something on their site about the same as I recall, contrast improvement was the key feature I do believe, not sure, I'm going from memory . Next thing I want to know is , where do you live? Sony actually gave you a 760 and 870 to play with at home? Holy smokes, that's not a typical situation from most countries I know of, that is about $60,000 worth of product based on MSRP, I assume you have one very honest face .
I do believe its possible that the 760 has an improved panel. Kris deering measured native contrast on the 760 at 15K:1 and others have measured the 285ES as low as 5K:1 and as high as 12K:1 which is a big difference.

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post #156 of 160 Old 04-07-2019, 09:51 AM
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OK, I am reposting it here...

Intro:

Before I post my review of the Sony 760 and 870, here are some caveats and background information to go along with.
  1. I have had the Sony 760ES for 3 weeks to play with. So one might say I have had an extensive idea of how this projector performs under most content.
  2. I only had the 870ES for 3 days. But while I have the 870, I also have the 760 together so I can do a lot of side by side comparisons. Most of my 870 viewings were with the sole idea of comparing it with the 760ES.
  3. The 870 had only 7 hour on it, so it was practically brand new. The 760 had I think less than 100 hours on it when I got it.
  4. I am using a 138 inch 16:9 screen. 1.8 gain, silver, micro perf. Projected with maximum zoom, basically the brightest possible.
  5. These are out of the box, non-calibrated. I used Cinema Film 1 on both. Then adjusted the Contrast, Brightness, and other normal user settings available to me without going into the Service Menu.

New SXRD Panels?


This is actually confirmed by the Sony Engineer and their Marketing person. At the Sony Laser projector launch event, they had a slide comparing their projectors, and those that started from the 760ES had the newer panels. All of these panels are made in Japan with very high quality control. They showed a video on how they make the SXRD panels. Essentially looked like a NASA clean room. They also confirmed a better contrast between the newer panels and the older ones. Their main purpose was to work on Contrast as they realize that that is the ONLY single variable they lose to JVC. I tend to agree with them on this assessment. To me the Sony is better in every way compared to the JVC other than contrast and in real environment, it’s not going to be night and day difference… some might disagree, but I am willing to bet 99% of people who aren’t looking for it on purpose won’t even notice it.

Lenses

At the Sony Launch Event, they also showed slides of the glasses they used vs JVC’s N5, N7, and according to them their lens are superior. This could be marketing hype. I won’t comment on it. But later when I do the comparison between the Arc-F lens of the 870 vs the 760, I’ll give my comment and it may prove this point moot.

Review / My Subjective Observation

Now on to my observation of these laser projectors. These are my own subjective review. I am not going to post numbers, etc. You can get those from the professional reviewers. Mine is what a regular AV enthusiast who spends a lot of time and effort trying to do the best for my own Home Theater, for my own enjoyment. My review will be mostly comparisons between what I see on these Lasers vs the Lamp based counterparts. So, for those that own the lamp based ones, you can basically see what you’ll get out of these in relatively. I owned the 500ES for 3 years so I am very familiar with the Sony lamp based projectors. I have also recently reviewed the 360ES in my Cinema for a week or so.
Here are some of the things that JUMPS out at you with the 760/870
  1. CALMNESS. This is purely due to the laser light source vs lamp. Same thing with the JVC Z1 (which I have also reviewed). The biggest difference is the eerie calmness of the laser light source. With bulb based projectors, you’ll see a very slight inconsistency with the light. With lasers, this all goes away, because the laser light source is very calm and very consistent. You won’t even know you’re looking at a projected image, but rather more like seeing thru a glass to the other side. The picture would be so stable, so calm, like you can touch it, whether it’s natural objects like trees, flowers, sand or a human being. I can’t stress this enough. If this were the ONLY difference, I would be sold on the lasers already. In fact, I was so sold I went ahead and bought the 760ES even though I didn’t think I’ll get it in the first place. I would say that the difference going from lamp based to lasers would be the same as going from an AT woven screen to a solid screen. The clarity increase is astounding. Just like I’ll never go back to AT screen, I’ll never go back to Lamp. If you put the lasers with a solid screen together, you’ll literally be able to walk thru the screen and touch whatever is on the other side. Last but not least, lasers have the advantage of very, very long life as compared to bulbs. You never have to worry about changing out your bulbs anymore as they get dimmer. You’ll be able to enjoy your projector at near full brightness for at least 10,000 hours. That’s a lot of movies you can watch! By the time you’re thinking the picture is getting a little dimmer, it’s probably time to buy a new projector.
  2. Next, you’ll notice the vibrancy of the colors. I don’t know quite how to explain it, but lasers can give you a more intense, more vivid picture than their bulb based counterparts. The intensity of the lasers will pierce right thru certain picture elements. For instance, when you’re looking at a star field, or a candle light, they seem to shine brighter and more incandescent. This gives you a more realistic image. This is all more apparent with HDR. As others have described it, HDR on these projectors is very close to watching a 3D image.
  3. I love the instant switch on/off. No more slow wait times. I can keep switching it off and on at will without worrying about the lamp.
  4. Fade to black is great! I won’t go too much into all the other aspects of this projector as I want to concentrate on only the Picture Quality. For the specs and details, one can easily look them up.

Now that we have touched upon what Sony 4K laser projectors bring to the table, let’s talk a bit about the differences between the 760Es and the 870ES model.

The Sony Marketing person actually called the 870Es the replacement of the 760ES, but that they will continue to make available the 760ES. This made me feel that in the future they may just consolidate both into just 1 model. At which point I believe to get the lasers, you’ll have to fork out more money. If they really plan on consolidating the 760/870 eventually into 1 model, I think the price point would be something inbetween the 2.

Without further adeu, The 870ES.. .

When I fired up the 870, and started going thru the same content I went thru with the 760ES, I did notice a slight improvement in clarity. Also, noticed a slight improvement in contrast in lower APL scenes or even mixed scenes like the car chase scenes in Korea of Black Panther. This is consistent with all the reviews I read about the 870 vs the 760. So, to re-cap, the consistency of the improvement of the 870 vs the 760 could be boiled down to:
  1. Better lens translate to more clarity
  2. Dynamic IRIS translate to more contrast.
  3. 200 extra lumens which should translate to ‘brighter image’ but I just can’t notice it subjectively. I am sure if you use a light meter, you’ll be able to measure it, but to me, I simply can’t see it.

Ok, that’s what it SHOULD be right? Everyone says so, and all the data measurement says so. Here’s the rub… and this is where it gets controversial. For the longest time, we have all complained about Sony’s decision to not put a dynamic iris on the 760ES and their decision to use only their laser engine as the dynamic contrast. We all assumed that there would be a far far superior black to be gained correct? I too fell into that trap. Also, the lens, why Sony didn’t just put their most expensive lens on the 760? Sony keep telling us that their new and improved lens are really, really good already, but we insist on the ARC-F… it should be way, way better correct?

At first, I was like, OK, the lens and the IRIS did make a difference. But then I remembered something at the launch event. Sony showed us the 760/870 side by side comparison (by blocking half the image on each projector). They displayed some very sharp patterns and characters so you can go right up front and see it for yourself. At the patterns, you can see that the lines were a little more pronounced on the 870, thinner lines, vs the a bit bloated ones on the 760 (blooming? I don’t know the term).

Then the Sony guys showed some images with fine patterns on dresses, etc.. and showed off their Digital Focus Optimizer. For those that don’t know what this is, here’s what’s written on their website:

Optimum focus is achieved, not only optically but digitally, by the Digital Focus Optimiser. It compensates the possible optical degradation of the lens in advance then outputs the optimum corrected images, so that even the focus in the corners is better than ever.

This is supposed to work with their ARC-F lens to ensure even the edges are ‘sharp as tact’. At least that’s the marketing of it. But when they showed how it worked, they switch it on and off while showing some intricate pattern on a girls dress. You can clearly see that it sharpens the patterns quite a bit while it’s on compared to when it’s off. At first I was like damn, I want that feature on the 760. I even asked them and they say it’s only available on the 870.

Now, why did I go on a tangent talking about the Digital Focus Optimizer, which does not seem to really matter, especially for people who don’t care much about digital enhancements.

And this is where the idea suddenly came into my mind. What if the so called Digital Focus Optimizer is doing something similar to their ‘Reality Creation’? Could I simulate the sharpness of the 870 by increasing my RC? I paused at some images, and turned the DFO off and on many times and I can’t see any difference between what it’s doing vs the regular RC… so, what I did was this… I picked a screen in Black Panther where they showed those warrior women with their intricate costumes. This is what I did. I switched on the 760ES, set the RC to 60. I usually only use 20 or 30. Then I did the on/off test of RC.. guess what? The difference I saw was the exact same difference between using the 870 DFO on/off. I can NOT tell the difference at all. Then I just went to many different scenes. Take the Avengers Infinity war, close up pictures of faces, especially Pepper Pots, during her conversation with Tony Start at the beginning of the movie. There are some close up shots of both their faces. I did this scene many times with the 870 with on/off DFO (RC set at 20), vs the 760 on/off RC set at 60. I do not see any difference between the two at all.. both will show the exact amount of sharpening. When the DFO on the 870 were off, the clarity of the supposedly ARC-F lens disappear. Now, based on my limited testing, I am starting to believe the lenses on the 760 is already so good, what the ARC-F lens being to the table is only extra costs. Any improvement in image quality is explained away with their image processing of the DFO which you can simulate with the RC at 60. Now, most people won’t like RC at 60, and I believe most also won’t like the DFO turned on for that matter. I personally liked it though, so I kinda settled on RC at 40 or 50.

So, one of the advantages of the 870, ie, clarity basically disappeared on normal viewing content after you adjust the RC.
What about the Contrast advantage? Again, here’s the rub. For most content that are bright, there are ZERO differences as the IRIS is wide open. For content where you can see the IRIS closing down a little is where you’ll notice a slightly blacker black… so, again, I was thinking, can I simulate that ‘blacker black’ on the 760? I tried by turning down the brightness on the 760. And viola, at -3 (from whatever you set both to, say starting from 50), you’ll again, no longer see any difference between the two. In reality, if you actually measured it, you’ll prob see a contrast difference. But in real life viewing, I can’t tell the difference. The black floor goes down (I suppose the brightness also goes down at the top end, but at only -3 I don’t really notice the top end at all). So, in real life viewing, lowering the brightness by -3, will give you almost exactly the same thing the dynamic IRIS does. Again, I watched many scenes between these two projectors with this settings and I can’t tell the difference.

Long story short. If you were to set your 760’s RC to 50 or 60, and your brightness to -3 (relative to the 870), all the advantages of the 870 disappears. I think this is because the 870 is only 200 lumens brighter. So, the effect of the dynamic iris isn’t as noticeable. If the 870 is 3000 lumens for instance, the hit you get from turning down the brightness may then seem more apparent.

So, to summarize, the 870 do indeed have better lens, but since the lens of the 760 is already so good, it’s really not noticeable on real life content. That may be why they introduced the DFO, to maybe artificially show a sharper image. And almost every comparison video you’ll see online or even reviews, the ‘noticeable clarity’ or ‘as if a fog is removed’ comments can be explained by the DFO working rather than just the lens. And that’s basically some sort of RC. Maybe not the same, but the effect is very similar. And the Dynamic IRIS isn’t going to add that much more to the picture really, unless you have enough lumens to spare to begin with. I think Sony engineers already knew this when they designed the 760, and that may be their decision on not including it in. But after reading all the complains, they put it into the 870 to satisfy everyone. Remember, the consumer is always correct? Cause they are willing to pay more money for a feature they ASK for. I think Sony would have more to improve on with a better algorithm with their laser dimming feature, and also, with their Tone Mapping. If they improve those two, you’ll likely see a significant step up. But not with the ARC-F lens nor the Dynamic IRIS. The biggest difference they could make in my opinion is adding lumens. If Sony combines the 760/870 into a new model called the 990 and price it at exactly the same as the 760 today, but add up to 3500 lumens, they’ll have a winner. And then maybe put a laser engine and 2000 lumens into the 590. Leave the 290 as is but add the dynamic iris.

Lastly the added 200 lumens is a bonus rather than a true step up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
@coolgeek I agree, post it here , if fact this is the link you gave me , I do believe this is where you actually intended to put your review/comparison. It is the VW995/VW885 comparison thread the othe is more general for all projectors 2019.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
Hi coolgeek, please copy your very insightful comparison review here also so it won’t disappear in the other, very long thread

You will get more likes here, as you deserve
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post #157 of 160 Old 04-07-2019, 09:54 AM
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Hmmm, I wonder what improvements were made to the SXRD panels that would characterize these as "all new design." Would be interesting to know what was done , it's not something they advertised that I'm aware of . Well, they did have something on their site about the same as I recall, contrast improvement was the key feature I do believe, not sure, I'm going from memory . Next thing I want to know is , where do you live? Sony actually gave you a 760 and 870 to play with at home? Holy smokes, that's not a typical situation from most countries I know of, that is about $60,000 worth of product based on MSRP, I assume you have one very honest face .
Not sure about an Honest Face.. haha... but yes, I was very lucky. I know the local distributor and he introduced me to a few of the guys from Sony Singapore and Sony Malaysia,... we all had a get together at my home theater.. The 760ES was actually owned by the distributor, that's why they left it at my place for so long. The 870ES was on tour in Asia (I think this is a different unit from the one in Europe or the US because when it got to me, it only had 7 hours on it). Anyways, we waited for months for it to arrive here. They kept delaying the demo unit... the distributor had to re-set their launch date several times... but once it was here, they let me have it for 3 days... i don't think there's a lot of demand of it here so it was quite free once it got here. I wish they had left it here for 3 weeks, but hey, 3 days is still more than I had hoped for.

As for the new SXRD panels, they said they had improved on the contrast, among other things.. They didn't want to go into details what those other things are, but i can guess perhaps better protect against panel degradation? Just my guess.
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post #158 of 160 Old 04-09-2019, 09:49 AM
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Not sure about an Honest Face.. haha... but yes, I was very lucky. I know the local distributor and he introduced me to a few of the guys from Sony Singapore and Sony Malaysia,... we all had a get together at my home theater.. The 760ES was actually owned by the distributor, that's why they left it at my place for so long. The 870ES was on tour in Asia (I think this is a different unit from the one in Europe or the US because when it got to me, it only had 7 hours on it). Anyways, we waited for months for it to arrive here. They kept delaying the demo unit... the distributor had to re-set their launch date several times... but once it was here, they let me have it for 3 days... i don't think there's a lot of demand of it here so it was quite free once it got here. I wish they had left it here for 3 weeks, but hey, 3 days is still more than I had hoped for.

As for the new SXRD panels, they said they had improved on the contrast, among other things.. They didn't want to go into details what those other things are, but i can guess perhaps better protect against panel degradation? Just my guess.

Not sure why I keep thinking you are from western Canada, must have you confused with others. Irregardless , having access to both these projectors is mighty generous , wish I had this opportunity . I've made two trips ( by airline) across the country to see these projectors in action, something absolutely necessary if one is to to get a real world feel for performance. That said I have not seen the VW995 , I will, however, see the VW5000 shortly on my next trip, knowing the lens is the same should be close enough. If all goes well, the VW5000 will be my next choice, regardless of differences it has the light engine I need for my setup without compromises, for the first time I can light up a large screen with low gain reference level screen material .That was my goal for this new theater build, I honestly didn't expect the VW5000 to be necessary. Nothing beats first person viewing , words cannot convey everything, especially considering some of misguided claims conveyed on these forums .
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post #159 of 160 Old 04-11-2019, 04:14 AM
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Not sure why I keep thinking you are from western Canada, must have you confused with others. Irregardless , having access to both these projectors is mighty generous , wish I had this opportunity . I've made two trips ( by airline) across the country to see these projectors in action, something absolutely necessary if one is to to get a real world feel for performance. That said I have not seen the VW995 , I will, however, see the VW5000 shortly on my next trip, knowing the lens is the same should be close enough. If all goes well, the VW5000 will be my next choice, regardless of differences it has the light engine I need for my setup without compromises, for the first time I can light up a large screen with low gain reference level screen material .That was my goal for this new theater build, I honestly didn't expect the VW5000 to be necessary. Nothing beats first person viewing , words cannot convey everything, especially considering some of misguided claims conveyed on these forums .
yeah, for sure a lot of misguided claims.. when you see in person, you'll be scratching your head wondering why everyone's saying the Sony's are 'grey' instead of black.. lolz.! and why the Sony looked so good out of the box..
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post #160 of 160 Old 04-20-2019, 03:14 PM
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I do believe its possible that the 760 has an improved panel. Kris deering measured native contrast on the 760 at 15K:1 and others have measured the 285ES as low as 5K:1 and as high as 12K:1 which is a big difference.
I've stated many times before that contrast performance on ALL the Sony SXRD models is VERY conditional and takes great care to get good numbers after calibration. I would bet the VAST majority of Sony owners who think they are getting in the mid to upper teens for native contrast are below 10K:1. I don't think I've ever taken a pre-calibration measurement on a Sony projector that I've been hired to calibrate that was over 10K:1. I'm not seeing anything that would make me think that Sony put new panels in these projectors compared to what I've seen with models that I reviewed before (1100ES, 665ES).

The tone mapping in the 995 vs the 885 is largely the same except for how they treat near black.

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