New Acurus Muse 16 channel SSP w $5500 msrp - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 111 Old 06-19-2019, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by K Z View Post
It is pretty obvious that if hardware does not support ARC then sofware will not do miracles. But we have right to assume that, when Acurus decided to design Muse (and position it as a competition for Marantz, Emotiva, NAD, Arcam and others in similar price range) made a standard market research what people are using at their homes to watch movies. Most of us have TV's and that means the need for ARC. I cannot imagine that any contemporary project of SSP will miss ARC. It's like designing laptop without webcam. Let's hope that this is also the case of Muse: everyting is there but since they want to release the product as ASAP they skipped many things like any manufacturer of modern electronics. The firmware updates contain not only bug fixes but also new functionalities that were not included/completed when the product was released. Even Trinnov announced thet they are checking ARC feasibility in their SSPs. That would mean that even the company that is not using standard SSP architecture and targets big HT instalations market somehow decided to keep the doors open... I hope that Acurus did it also.
You are correct. Accurus are adding new features in every firmware update at present. Whilst I cant comment specifically on ARC, I can say that every new firmware update is bringing more and more to the MUSE. Its a case of watch this space.

In the meantime, I am continually very impressed at the sound quality from the MUSE. Ive done a lot more testing over the last few weeks and am continually astounded at how clean and clear the audio quality is. In comparisons to the Marantz 8802A is simply night and day.

I am really looking forward to getting my hands on the mic kit in a couple of weeks - I hope!
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post #62 of 111 Old 06-19-2019, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jholko View Post
You are correct. Accurus are adding new features in every firmware update at present. Whilst I cant comment specifically on ARC, I can say that every new firmware update is bringing more and more to the MUSE. Its a case of watch this space.

In the meantime, I am continually very impressed at the sound quality from the MUSE. Ive done a lot more testing over the last few weeks and am continually astounded at how clean and clear the audio quality is. In comparisons to the Marantz 8802A is simply night and day.

I am really looking forward to getting my hands on the mic kit in a couple of weeks - I hope!
I can't say much about new firmware (you are the chosen one, I still have the original firmware) but I can tell that SQ of the MUSE is much better than I expected. Ordering in that early stage always poses the risk but as far as sound quality is concerned I can't complain. It is not something that I am not used to but for the first time I dont't hear huge difference comparing with my "reference" 2 channel gear. For SSP it sounds really good. The downside is that it is really unforgiving for those DVDs or BR disks (mostly older ones) with very poorly recorded soundtracks. There are preamplifiers and power amps that can hide that but we are talking completely different price range. With Muse you can clearly tell where the dialogs were recorded (location/recording studio or isolated boot) or when the voices are additionally processed.


Since I am thinking about buying ASPEQT (depending what result I will get checking the room for EQ with 3rd party s/w - this I am planning to do in 1-2 months to make sure that Mused is warmed up) it will be interesting to know how it really integrates with MUSE. This seems to be critical for every separate kit. If the kit gives sagnificant advantage over manual adjustment it may be worth the price. But if the kit is doing same thing that can be done using touch screen (based on data obtained using for example REW) but the process is "automatic" then the this may not me the best spent money. After all if nothing changes in your room you do the EQ once.
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post #63 of 111 Old 06-20-2019, 03:37 PM
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I can't say much about new firmware (you are the chosen one, I still have the original firmware) but I can tell that SQ of the MUSE is much better than I expected. Ordering in that early stage always poses the risk but as far as sound quality is concerned I can't complain. It is not something that I am not used to but for the first time I dont't hear huge difference comparing with my "reference" 2 channel gear. For SSP it sounds really good. The downside is that it is really unforgiving for those DVDs or BR disks (mostly older ones) with very poorly recorded soundtracks. There are preamplifiers and power amps that can hide that but we are talking completely different price range. With Muse you can clearly tell where the dialogs were recorded (location/recording studio or isolated boot) or when the voices are additionally processed.


Since I am thinking about buying ASPEQT (depending what result I will get checking the room for EQ with 3rd party s/w - this I am planning to do in 1-2 months to make sure that Mused is warmed up) it will be interesting to know how it really integrates with MUSE. This seems to be critical for every separate kit. If the kit gives sagnificant advantage over manual adjustment it may be worth the price. But if the kit is doing same thing that can be done using touch screen (based on data obtained using for example REW) but the process is "automatic" then the this may not me the best spent money. After all if nothing changes in your room you do the EQ once.
Its very interesting that you mention dialogue intelligibility as this is something I have also noted and passed onto Acurus as feedback. I have only ever experienced this level of intelligibility and seperation in one other processor that was a lot more expensive (and I mean a lot).

Once I get my hands on the ASPEQT kit I will post up all my results here and share my thoughts on it. To be clear, I dont work for Acurus. Im not affiliated with them in any way whatsoever. I dont even know anyone there personally. Ive just been providing them with feedback from testing and testing firmware for them. Ultimately, my decision to buy or not (ASPEQT) will come down to what the kit offers above and beyond something like REW.

All of that said, I continue to be really warmed by the MUSE. The sound quality is exceptional - regardless of price point.
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post #64 of 111 Old 06-24-2019, 02:36 PM
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• Improved Wide Support for Dolby Surround and DTS Neural X upmixing with 9.X.X layouts.


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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Can you elaborate on that?

Neural X with wides is limited to 11 ch, i.e. 5+W.x.4; can the Muse do 7+W.x.4 with matrixed wides?

I emailed Acurus support w/the above question and just got a call back from VP of Sales.

He didn't know the answer but got a three-way call going with a product guy who did, who said that the Muse would generate sound for all speakers all of the time.

I then asked if the signal generated for a Wide speaker was just mixing of the adjacent front and surround, or a more sophisticated logic steering approach that would silence the front and surround and only drive the wide when a panning sound was exactly between them.

I also asked why the mic kit was so expensive, comparing it to the $700 for the sophisticated Trinnov 4-capsule mic that has to be manufactured with precise spacings between the capsules to get the angles and distances right.

He didn't know the answers to but will find out and get back to me.

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post #65 of 111 Old 06-24-2019, 07:38 PM
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I also asked why the mic kit was so expensive, comparing it to the $700 for the sophisticated Trinnov 4-capsule mic that has to be manufactured with precise spacings between the capsules to get the angles and distances right.
I'll be interested to hear what they tell you on this as its my understanding a price on the mic kit is not finalised as yet - especially given the kit is still not finalised and/or available as of today. Only a rough indication of cost has been provided so far and I don't believe that is set in stone as yet.

Im sorry I cant be of help on the wides issue as I don't run wides in my cinema and don't have capability to easily set this up for testing.
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post #66 of 111 Old 06-25-2019, 10:17 AM
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Re Wides, the answer is "It is more of a mixing scheme that does not silence the adjacent channels."

So similar to what Lyngdorf does.

Still waiting on a satisfactory answer on the mic cost.


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Originally Posted by jholko View Post
Im sorry I cant be of help on the wides issue as I don't run wides in my cinema and don't have capability to easily set this up for testing.
Hopefully someone else can do that when there are more in the field.

I'm also very interested to hear your experience with how ASPEQT is for general effectiveness, ease of setup, and bass integration.

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post #67 of 111 Old 06-25-2019, 11:15 AM
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Got another response, which was essentially that the overall value proposition was competitive with Lyngdorf MP-50, Trinnov Alt 16, etc., but still lacked justification for the mic kit cost other than that it was meant for dealers and that they would likely charge less than $2550 for setup.

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post #68 of 111 Old 06-25-2019, 02:14 PM
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Whether the mic kit is worth it or not for us hobbyists (not dealers) depends on what the room correction does. If the mic kit helps accomplish perfectly smooth response and ±1dB seat to seat consistency, then $2500 might turn out to be a good value. But if ASPEQT turns out to be automated PEQ, then not so much. Even automated PEQ can yield excellent results, like Harman's ARCOS system did, but it depends on what the system does with the measurements. Invert the response in an attempt to flatten out the peaks & dips? Not a good idea. Identify problems common to all seats and concentrate on fixing them? Much better. Unfortunately, ASPECT is still an unknown.

One advantage to using multiple mics (besides speed) is the ability to do room correction using an iterative approach. Since the mics never move, you can measure, fix the biggest problems, re-measure, fix the next set of problems, measure again and ....well, you get the idea. No need for predicted measurements when you can measure the actual results of the correction. Not saying ASPECT does this, merely pointing out an advantage to multiple mics.
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post #69 of 111 Old 06-25-2019, 10:16 PM
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Since the mics never move...

I don't recollect that; do you know something we don't?

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post #70 of 111 Old 06-26-2019, 03:06 AM
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I don't recollect that; do you know something we don't?
I dont think anyone knows anything for sure about ASPEQT outside of those in the know at Acurus.

As to wether the mics need to move or not, it really depends on how many seats and or places and or measurements you want to take. In my cinema I have only one row of four seats. So a four mic set up is super convenient for me as I can set up one mic in each seat and make the measurements once and be done with it. Multi-row cinemas are a different story.

One thing the Trinnov can do that I would love to see in the MUSE is the ability to have different profiles depending on how many listeners are in the room. Could probably be done in firmware.. but anyway first step is to actually 'get' a mic kit.....
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post #71 of 111 Old 06-26-2019, 08:10 AM
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Not saying ASPECT does this, merely pointing out an advantage to multiple mics.
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I don't recollect that; do you know something we don't?
You don't recollect what? Room correction systems which use multiple mics that don't move? Lex MC-12, JBL BassQ, ARCOS. Do you know of room correction systems where multiple mics are shuffled to different locations between measurements?

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post #72 of 111 Old 06-26-2019, 08:33 AM
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You don't recollect what?

That ASPEQT's 4 mic's don't move.

A couple of possibilities are that they move and cut measurement time by 4X, or not move as you describe; I'm not familiar with MC-12, JBL BassQ, or ARCOS techniques.

Re your once and done scenario, aren't you concerned with the four listeners' pairs of ears not being where the single mic is?

Though that wouldn't be an issue if ASPEQT can be limited to lower freq or is smart enough not to correct narrow band irregularities.

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post #73 of 111 Old 06-26-2019, 09:00 AM
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Not saying ASPECT does this, merely pointing out an advantage to multiple mics.
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
That ASPEQT's 4 mic's don't move.
Who said ASPECT's 4 mics don't move?
Quote:
Re your once and done scenario, aren't you concerned with the four listeners' pairs of ears not being where the single mic is?
What would prevent the mics from being where the listeners' ears are?
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Though that wouldn't be an issue if ASPEQT can be limited to lower freq or is smart enough not to correct narrow band irregularities.
At this point, even Audyssey does most of its correction in the low frequencies. IF ASPECT is automated PEQ, then its designers would limit problems by doing most of the correction in the low frequencies. (Now you're going to ask me how I know that ASPECT limits it correction to low frequencies.)

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post #74 of 111 Old 06-26-2019, 09:32 AM
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(Now you're going to ask me how I know that ASPECT limits it correction to low frequencies.)
*Raises his hand* Ooh, ooh, Let me!

Hey Sanjay, how do you know that ASPECT limits correction to low frequencies?
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post #75 of 111 Old 06-26-2019, 01:16 PM
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Who said ASPECT's 4 mics don't move?

You:

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
...Since the mics never move, you can measure, fix the biggest problems, re-measure, fix the next set of problems, measure again and ....well, you get the idea.



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What would prevent the mics from being where the listeners' ears are?

Nothing, if you pick one ear.

But as discussed the concern is likely moot.

Noah
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post #76 of 111 Old 06-26-2019, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
You:
I said the exact opposite:
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Not saying ASPECT does this
How did you miss the word "Not" at the beginning of that sentence?
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Nothing, if you pick one ear.
What does that have to do with anything? What room correction system is based on placing a mic at the location of one of your ears?

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post #77 of 111 Old 06-26-2019, 02:34 PM
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How did you miss the word "Not" at the beginning of that sentence?


Ah, I see now.

The "not" is in a later sentence, by which time my short-term memory loss takes effect.



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What does that have to do with anything? What room correction system is based on placing a mic at the location of one of your ears?

The answer is contained in the context of my previous posts, no point in belaboring it.

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post #78 of 111 Old 07-03-2019, 05:55 PM
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Just a quick update on where I am at with the MUSE: As of today I don't have ASPEQT yet, and I will be travelling for work for the next few weeks so its unlikely I will get to play and test it before August at the earliest.

After extensive listening, testing and playing over the last month though Ive absolutely decided to keep the MUSE as the processor in my cinema - its just so far above anything else in its price range in sound quality and usability that its a no brainer for me. I would have to go out and spend 3 x or more to find anything that comes even close.

I am a bit frustrated I dont have the ASPEQT kit as yet as I feel there is more to be unlocked in there with a 'mic' calibration - but all good things come to those who are prepared to wait..... And to this.. its pretty pointless debating the mic kit until such time as we actually have it in our hands and can evaluate its performance. Its all just speculation until that point and that isn't helping anyone in this thread.

Something else: The HTML interface for control of the MUSE is something I have fallen in love with. I wish more manufacturers implemented this approach for control instead of a dedicated APP.
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post #79 of 111 Old 07-21-2019, 06:57 AM
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Well, it looks like the discussion here is slowly dying, which is a kind of surprise. Other threads are highly populated, some with happy owners (Marantz, Trinnov), some not so (Emotiva RMC-1). But these SSPs raised emotion from the very beginning. When I joined MUSE thread I hoped that IAL would do some efforts to make the MUSE "hot topic". Apparently, I was wrong. We can only speculate why is that. Here my guesses (we already emphasised strong points of MUSE so let's focus on negatives:


- first and probably most important for home users is that despite good SQ the unit is very boring because of lack of features they would like to see. Nothing to play with or discuss with others. It is perfect to be located on the shell behind the wall in your HT room. My guess is that most Muse (or ACT 4) owners do not even know what processor they have since it is hidden the same way like cables inside the walls.
- no support or communication from manufacturer (my emails are unanswered since mid May)
- no comments on bugs and therefore no dates for possible solutions

- MUSE webpage is less informative than regular webpage of electric toothbrush, support non-existent on company website

- no communication from manufacturer on new firmware or new possible features
- no REQ s/w, Aspect delayed and unexpectedly expensive - clearly designed as dealer tool
- no units submitted for reviews and therefore no news spread into the public (magazines or forums readers) - that understandable giving bugs like audio drops during playback which prohibits (like in case of Emotiva RMC-1) any recommendations at this stage. But that tells us they know MUSE if far from being perfect.



and some other minor things that add up to overall perception of the product.



Summing up: well thought design, small case that would be easier to fit shelves at home, very good sound quality but for some reasons IAL decided not to go beyond their usual B2B sale channels. Probably they know that at this stage they have no chance to compete on quite crowded market (~$5,000 range).



I still hope, however, that they will eventually wake up.

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post #80 of 111 Old 07-21-2019, 09:29 AM
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Another reason I and another dealer associate decided to hold off was that there was no demo or test facility at the main office.

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post #81 of 111 Old 07-23-2019, 06:47 PM
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Well, it looks like the discussion here is slowly dying, which is a kind of surprise. Other threads are highly populated, some with happy owners (Marantz, Trinnov), some not so (Emotiva RMC-1). But these SSPs raised emotion from the very beginning. When I joined MUSE thread I hoped that IAL would do some efforts to make the MUSE "hot topic". Apparently, I was wrong. We can only speculate why is that. Here my guesses (we already emphasised strong points of MUSE so let's focus on negatives:
I hope the discussion here does not die.. this product deserves a better conversation. Lets keep in mind that the MUSE is not really in full circulation as yet. I know a lot of dealers are simply waiting for ASPEQT to be released before they start selling them.

Quote:
- first and probably most important for home users is that despite good SQ the unit is very boring because of lack of features they would like to see. Nothing to play with or discuss with others. It is perfect to be located on the shell behind the wall in your HT room. My guess is that most Muse (or ACT 4) owners do not even know what processor they have since it is hidden the same way like cables inside the walls.
- no support or communication from manufacturer (my emails are unanswered since mid May)
- no comments on bugs and therefore no dates for possible solutions
I think describing a unit as boring because it doesn't have lots of features to be kind of a strange comment. What features are missing that would make it less boring? Personally, I emphasis SQ over features I wont use. Lets keep in mind that most receivers are full of useless features. We dont want the MUSE to fall into that trap.

Regarding support from manufacturer. Have you tried calling them? Perhaps your emails are not getting through?

What bugs require comment?

Quote:
- MUSE webpage is less informative than regular webpage of electric toothbrush, support non-existent on company website
Whats missing from their webpage? Seems to have everything there for the product that every other manufactuer has?

Quote:
- no communication from manufacturer on new firmware or new possible features
- no REQ s/w, Aspect delayed and unexpectedly expensive - clearly designed as dealer tool
- no units submitted for reviews and therefore no news spread into the public (magazines or forums readers) - that understandable giving bugs like audio drops during playback which prohibits (like in case of Emotiva RMC-1) any recommendations at this stage. But that tells us they know MUSE if far from being perfect.
What sort of commnunication would you like from the manufacturer?

What bugs? Ive not experienced any audio drop outs whatsoever with the MUSE I have been testing and I have been running all the last firmware versions. Please give details on audio drop outs? Ive not heard anyone else experiencing audio drops with a MUSE either.


Quote:
Summing up: well thought design, small case that would be easier to fit shelves at home, very good sound quality but for some reasons IAL decided not to go beyond their usual B2B sale channels. Probably they know that at this stage they have no chance to compete on quite crowded market (~$5,000 range).
Id say brilliant design actually. Outstanding SQ. Id recommend a little patience.. once ASPEQT is released I am sure we will see greater penetration from dealers, units out for review and I think you will find the MUSE will kill it in its price range.

I think its important to stay clear and concise on all this.. lets stick with facts and not hearsay.

I am personally still testing MUSE, and to date, have not experienced any audio drops at all. The SQ is outstanding. The features sufficient for purpose. Not sure what else is needed there. What is needed is ASPEQT. I am waiting to hear on the latest on when this might be..... Until then.. not much more to report, hence a quiet thread.


Quote:
I still hope, however, that they will eventually wake up.
I think you mean, start communicating with the public.. I know for a fact they are hard at work with ASPEQT behind the scenes and Id prefer to wait a bit if I have to than have it half baked.
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post #82 of 111 Old 07-25-2019, 04:06 PM
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I hope the discussion here does not die.. this product deserves a better conversation. Lets keep in mind that the MUSE is not really in full circulation as yet. I know a lot of dealers are simply waiting for ASPEQT to be released before they start selling them.



I think describing a unit as boring because it doesn't have lots of features to be kind of a strange comment. What features are missing that would make it less boring? Personally, I emphasis SQ over features I wont use. Lets keep in mind that most receivers are full of useless features. We dont want the MUSE to fall into that trap.

Regarding support from manufacturer. Have you tried calling them? Perhaps your emails are not getting through?

What bugs require comment?



Whats missing from their webpage? Seems to have everything there for the product that every other manufactuer has?



What sort of commnunication would you like from the manufacturer?

What bugs? Ive not experienced any audio drop outs whatsoever with the MUSE I have been testing and I have been running all the last firmware versions. Please give details on audio drop outs? Ive not heard anyone else experiencing audio drops with a MUSE either.




Id say brilliant design actually. Outstanding SQ. Id recommend a little patience.. once ASPEQT is released I am sure we will see greater penetration from dealers, units out for review and I think you will find the MUSE will kill it in its price range.

I think its important to stay clear and concise on all this.. lets stick with facts and not hearsay.

I am personally still testing MUSE, and to date, have not experienced any audio drops at all. The SQ is outstanding. The features sufficient for purpose. Not sure what else is needed there. What is needed is ASPEQT. I am waiting to hear on the latest on when this might be..... Until then.. not much more to report, hence a quiet thread.




I think you mean, start communicating with the public.. I know for a fact they are hard at work with ASPEQT behind the scenes and Id prefer to wait a bit if I have to than have it half baked.
I had a real problem while answering your post. My intention was to try to understand why MUSE forum is empty. I can barely see how your post is related to this. While you cannot prove the opposite you could throw different arguments that would explain that. Instead you decided to submit very emotional post defending something that cannot be defended. While you are asking to "stick with the facts" your post is very personal - you are talking about your needs and preferences which may not be perceived by people as theirs. Please note that I am the MUSE owner (I am not testing it as a beta tester). My decision to buy MUSE was intentional - I really appreciate it for everything it does good. That does not mean that I do not see things (by simple A-B comparison) that are below the standard existing on Hi-End market.

When you write: "I emphasis SQ over features I wont use" you have every right to say so. But in the same way the owner of old Nokia cellphone (the one with mechanical keyboard) may say that he/she wants crystal clear sound, no call drops and long battery life - the primary job the cellphone should do. And does not care about features. But such phone has no chance to conquer today's market, it is boring device and majority of people wants smartphones with features. You can't escape features. Then you say something what really froze me : "We don't want the MUSE to fall into that trap" (of useless features I presume). Who are we? IAL engineers, sales reps or you are speaking on behalf of the rest of the world? The precise answer would be appreciated...


I will not comment on website design since everybody can compare different websites of various SSP manufacturers and speak for themselves. Same concerns features of SSPs.



Communication with customers: I am fortunate to have 3 separate systems one HT and two 2-channel and that includes a lot of components (changed through the years) that gave me picture what communication with customer should look like (we are talking Krell, McIntosh, Pass, Sonus Faber, TAqMcLaren, ClearAudio - naming only a few). I can say that they spoiled me but since my friends had same kind of service and support I suspect that this may be the usual way of taking care about customers. But lets consider the example that is very similar to the problem with audio drops. By the way: there are millions of DVDs, BD disks and files to play. Do you really think that the fact that you did not come across one is the prove that the ones that causing problems (any problems) do not exist?
Lets get back to the example: As a HT player I use Oppo and some years ago I have bought very rare BD disk. Unfortunately changing chapters while playing DTS made Oppo freeze. I reported this to Oppo (with details on BD) and next day I had confirmation that they would look at it but no promise was made. With next firmware update problem was gone. And that was Chinese Oppo: $500-$1200 players manufacturer with large sales and no aspiration to be Hi-End. Expecting similar response from Acurus is not an exaggeration.



For those who are not aware about the problem: the small (~1s) brakes in audio playback happened every 90 min while playing some older DVD or BR disks and frankly speaking if you watch the movie at home and pause the playback for any reason (that resets the clock) you will never experience it even if you should. Emotiva RMC-1 had that every 18 minutes and that could be painful (see RMC-1 forum for details why that happens).


Summing up: judging by the number of posts on both threads: Muse and Act 4 (can anybody find less populated SSP forum here?) it is clear that Acurus has a lot to do to change the way how it is perceived on Hi-End Market. And as Muse owner I am one of the most interested in the progress.
Just one remark: on other forums such posts would probably raise a wave of comments. Here, besides one short post supporting my point of view, is really quiet.
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post #83 of 111 Old 07-25-2019, 08:24 PM
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Please note that I am the MUSE owner (I am not testing it as a beta tester).

It would have been helpful if you had said that at the outset, as it was not at all apparent, at least to me.

Thanks for sharing your customer service experience; an interesting data point, though disappointing.

Noah

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I had a real problem while answering your post.
Not sure why.. I thought it was pretty clear.

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My intention was to try to understand why MUSE forum is empty. I can barely see how your post is related to this.
Sorry, you should have been a bit more clear if that was your intention. You did start off this way.. but then you launched into a whole 'negative points' debate that seemed really 'odd' at best.

Quote:
Instead you decided to submit very emotional post defending something that cannot be defended. While you are asking to "stick with the facts" your post is very personal - you are talking about your needs and preferences which may not be perceived by people as theirs.
Not sure what part of my post was emotional? And yes, of course, I am talking about my needs and preferences. I am hardly in a position to discuss yours or anyone elses needs. I would have thought that was self explanatory.

Quote:
Please note that I am the MUSE owner (I am not testing it as a beta tester). My decision to buy MUSE was intentional - I really appreciate it for everything it does good. That does not mean that I do not see things (by simple A-B comparison) that are below the standard existing on Hi-End market.
All I really understand from this comment is that you own a MUSE and are not a beta tester. No idea what else you are saying here..


Quote:
When you write: "I emphasis SQ over features I wont use" you have every right to say so. But in the same way the owner of old Nokia cellphone (the one with mechanical keyboard) may say that he/she wants crystal clear sound, no call drops and long battery life - the primary job the cellphone should do. And does not care about features. But such phone has no chance to conquer today's market, it is boring device and majority of people wants smartphones with features. You can't escape features. Then you say something what really froze me : "We don't want the MUSE to fall into that trap" (of useless features I presume). Who are we? IAL engineers, sales reps or you are speaking on behalf of the rest of the world? The precise answer would be appreciated...
'We' is often used in the English language as a royal pronoun. Meaning, I was referring to myself in a somewhat comical manner that referenced a more lofty status. It was intended a clever joke; but was obviously lost. Thats ok.


Quote:
Communication with customers: I am fortunate to have 3 separate systems one HT and two 2-channel and that includes a lot of components (changed through the years) that gave me picture what communication with customer should look like (we are talking Krell, McIntosh, Pass, Sonus Faber, TAqMcLaren, ClearAudio - naming only a few). I can say that they spoiled me but since my friends had same kind of service and support I suspect that this may be the usual way of taking care about customers.
Im not hear to defend Acurus. I dont work for them, I am not paid by them and I have no vested interest in their commercial success or otherwise. Lets be clear on that. I can only comment on my own experiences with them, which to date have been very good. Thats why I suggested you call them if you are not getting responses to emails. Perhaps they are not getting them?


Quote:
But lets consider the example that is very similar to the problem with audio drops. By the way: there are millions of DVDs, BD disks and files to play. Do you really think that the fact that you did not come across one is the prove that the ones that causing problems (any problems) do not exist?
No, of course not. I am simply saying I have not experienced any audio drop outs in all the testing I have done. None. Zero. If there is a disc you have that you have experienced an issue with please post it here so I can test it. Or get a copy and then test it. Lets work together if there isa problem and find out if its system or software related - doesnt that make sense?


Quote:
Lets get back to the example: As a HT player I use Oppo and some years ago I have bought very rare BD disk. Unfortunately changing chapters while playing DTS made Oppo freeze. I reported this to Oppo (with details on BD) and next day I had confirmation that they would look at it but no promise was made. With next firmware update problem was gone. And that was Chinese Oppo: $500-$1200 players manufacturer with large sales and no aspiration to be Hi-End. Expecting similar response from Acurus is not an exaggeration.
I think what you are saying here is that you expect a similar response from Acurus to that which you experienced with Oppo? sorry, just having a hard time with your grammar.


Quote:
For those who are not aware about the problem: the small (~1s) brakes in audio playback happened every 90 min while playing some older DVD or BR disks and frankly speaking if you watch the movie at home and pause the playback for any reason (that resets the clock) you will never experience it even if you should. Emotiva RMC-1 had that every 18 minutes and that could be painful (see RMC-1 forum for details why that happens).
Ok - thanks, Im going to test some older DVD and BR discs tonight to see if I can replicate this. Although I have not experienced it to date with any of the older titles I have watched so far (and that has been at least a dozen).


Quote:
Summing up: judging by the number of posts on both threads: Muse and Act 4 (can anybody find less populated SSP forum here?) it is clear that Acurus has a lot to do to change the way how it is perceived on Hi-End Market. And as Muse owner I am one of the most interested in the progress.
I am also interested in progress both here and from Acurus. I dont find the lack of posts here bothersome though. I think its just an indication that there really isnt much market penetration yet. And that this is likely due to the lack of ASPEQT. It could also be an indication that the sort of people buying MUSE are doing so as part of completed integrated Home Cinema systems designed and installed by professional integrators. Such purchasers are unlikely to post here or elsehwere on specific components in my experience as they purchased a 'solution'.

Moving On - Last night I updated to new and latest Firmware and did further testing. Each new firmware version is bringing expanded features to the HTML interface and options to the MUSE. One fantastic new feature is the option to roll back a HDMI port to 1.4 for legacy products. This is bound to please those who have older HDMI devices that are proving problematic in 2.0 environments.

I still have no firm date on when I can expect ASPEQT - and I will now be overseas again for work for a few weeks as of next week. So things may be a little quiet here from my side. Once I receive ASPEQT you guys here will be the first to know. Ok.. Im off to test some more legacy DVD and BR....
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post #85 of 111 Old 07-26-2019, 03:49 PM
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Not sure why.. I thought it was pretty clear.



Sorry, you should have been a bit more clear if that was your intention. You did start off this way.. but then you launched into a whole 'negative points' debate that seemed really 'odd' at best.



Not sure what part of my post was emotional? And yes, of course, I am talking about my needs and preferences. I am hardly in a position to discuss yours or anyone elses needs. I would have thought that was self explanatory.



All I really understand from this comment is that you own a MUSE and are not a beta tester. No idea what else you are saying here..




'We' is often used in the English language as a royal pronoun. Meaning, I was referring to myself in a somewhat comical manner that referenced a more lofty status. It was intended a clever joke; but was obviously lost. Thats ok.




Im not hear to defend Acurus. I dont work for them, I am not paid by them and I have no vested interest in their commercial success or otherwise. Lets be clear on that. I can only comment on my own experiences with them, which to date have been very good. Thats why I suggested you call them if you are not getting responses to emails. Perhaps they are not getting them?




No, of course not. I am simply saying I have not experienced any audio drop outs in all the testing I have done. None. Zero. If there is a disc you have that you have experienced an issue with please post it here so I can test it. Or get a copy and then test it. Lets work together if there isa problem and find out if its system or software related - doesnt that make sense?




I think what you are saying here is that you expect a similar response from Acurus to that which you experienced with Oppo? sorry, just having a hard time with your grammar.




Ok - thanks, Im going to test some older DVD and BR discs tonight to see if I can replicate this. Although I have not experienced it to date with any of the older titles I have watched so far (and that has been at least a dozen).




I am also interested in progress both here and from Acurus. I dont find the lack of posts here bothersome though. I think its just an indication that there really isnt much market penetration yet. And that this is likely due to the lack of ASPEQT. It could also be an indication that the sort of people buying MUSE are doing so as part of completed integrated Home Cinema systems designed and installed by professional integrators. Such purchasers are unlikely to post here or elsehwere on specific components in my experience as they purchased a 'solution'.

Moving On - Last night I updated to new and latest Firmware and did further testing. Each new firmware version is bringing expanded features to the HTML interface and options to the MUSE. One fantastic new feature is the option to roll back a HDMI port to 1.4 for legacy products. This is bound to please those who have older HDMI devices that are proving problematic in 2.0 environments.

I still have no firm date on when I can expect ASPEQT - and I will now be overseas again for work for a few weeks as of next week. So things may be a little quiet here from my side. Once I receive ASPEQT you guys here will be the first to know. Ok.. Im off to test some more legacy DVD and BR....
First of all I have to apologise for my English if my mistakes made my intentions unclear. You are, of course, free to ask for clarification. I hope that it is clear for everyone that it is not my native language and it's been a while since I had to use it in my everyday life. Speaking of that: because of time difference it is not easy to make a call during IAL working hours. When I wrote my emails to them I got the answer on, let's say "easy questions", and remained questions were "transferred to support department". So I know they have it. Also, it is no secret that manufacturers follow posts on forums like this just to act early to prevent future problems. I was curious whether Acurus is watching us but apparently it's not the priority for them since we are not their primary target.

I am happy to see that we agree that Muse is just another device that Acurus wants to sell to companies doing HT installations rather then to the actual users. From early press releases and product announcements I understood that Acurus want to sell Muse directly to customers. You can imagine my surprise that I could not identify a single marketing activity that confirmed that. A good example is Emotiva RMC-1 forum: RMC-1 is a real problem so people are discussing alternatives. Sadly, Muse was never mentioned even it is in the same price range.

I don't want to be perceived as a bad guy here but I think that whoever wants to buy Muse should know its strengths and weaknesses. For me SQ combined with sound projection was absolute priority and lack of features do not bother me since whatever Muse is missing my other gear (except Auro 3D) will do but if anyone wants to built complete system around AV processor should think twice. And people who are not experienced and need to rely on manufacturer support should consider hard time to get things right.
I'll be happy to see your thoughts on ASPECT once it is releases. The price would be everything because almost $3000 added to $5500 makes dangerously close to Lyngdorf and it has also excellent sound quality combined with very good REQ but also a lot of "features".
You mentioned new things in new firmware. Strangely, I have had my Muse since April (my unit has one of the first S/N) and I can change HDMI from 2.0 to 1.4. Have you noticed that once you changed HDMI configuration Muse is announcing that "ACT 4 needs to ..."

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Further to above on audio drop outs: I did a lot of testing over the last two days with everything from 4K recent releases to legacy Blue Rays and SD DVD's. I was not able to replicate any audio drop outs on any software regardless of what I tried (that is with my 5.2.4 setup) with two different Oppo Players - one 4K Oppo player and one Oppo Transport BD. I would like to hear from anyone who has experienced any audio drop outs on a MUSE (of any kind) with specifics on what title was dropping out and at which point in the time line so I can try and replicate it. I even tried different region BD and SD discs with no avail. I also tried playing entire movies beginning to end (watched a lot of movies in the last two days). If you have experienced a drop out please advise on above as well as what set-up you are running as to date I cant fault the unit on audio drop outs no matter what I try.
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post #87 of 111 Old 07-28-2019, 02:51 PM
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Further to above on audio drop outs: I did a lot of testing over the last two days with everything from 4K recent releases to legacy Blue Rays and SD DVD's. I was not able to replicate any audio drop outs on any software regardless of what I tried (that is with my 5.2.4 setup) with two different Oppo Players - one 4K Oppo player and one Oppo Transport BD. I would like to hear from anyone who has experienced any audio drop outs on a MUSE (of any kind) with specifics on what title was dropping out and at which point in the time line so I can try and replicate it. I even tried different region BD and SD discs with no avail. I also tried playing entire movies beginning to end (watched a lot of movies in the last two days). If you have experienced a drop out please advise on above as well as what set-up you are running as to date I cant fault the unit on audio drop outs no matter what I try.
Honestly, I had no intention to go back here but yesterday I played brand new "Alita, Battle Angel" 3D BD (DTS 7.1 audio) and, despite pauses during the playback I had a drop in audio in 88th min of the movie. That's new since so far I got that only when I was watching older disks and without pausing playback. Since you offered your help I will be glad to see if you can repeat that. Now, because in Europe we have movies edited for groups of countries (with no apparent pattern, looks like they choose languages randomly except that they always manipulate with subtitles or original sound in such way that we cannot buy the cheapest German BD) it may not be exactly same as the one you can buy in US. Therefore I would like to ask you to check 2 older disks that I bought in US: Bee Gees BD "One Night Only" (Eagle Vision, ERSBD3001) and "Dido Live" DVD (Arista 82876-65809-9). Both were played without interruptions (DTS audio) and the speakers went silence in vicinity of 90th minute. The reason I can't give you precise time is that these are concerts and I played them as a sort of background music and I needed time to get to Oppo player to check the time on display. Every time that happens the info on audio format (in and out) on Muse screen disappear and return with the sound. It looks like HDMI handshake is lost for 1-2 seconds and then it comes back. I could blame (at least partially) Oppo player but I have never experience such things with my 2 older SSPs. Also blaming player would require explanation why video is played uninterrupted. If you have time and willing to help I will look forward to see the result of your tests. Please note that if I experience audio drops it is 90% with DTS although it happened with DD once or twice. I am also open to ideas how to experiment with the setup to get the problem solved. The Oppo player is 105 model so I needed to downgrade HDMI input (no. 6) to 1.4 to avoid any incompatibilities. I split video and audio - video goes directly to TV (HDMI upgraded to 2.0).


There is another thing with DTS that does not work well: when I try to change surround mode from Auto to DTS sound disappears and to get it back I need ether to go to any other audio mode and then DTS or press DTS second time. That happens only when I try to change surround mode to DTS. All other modes start immediately.


Do you know if there is possibility to power down Muse HDMI outputs while the unit goes to Standby? It looks like they are always on which is not really necessary especially that Muse HDMI outputs radiate a lot of RF noise (much more than my other digital components when they are ON) and that sometimes distorts signals in coax cables.


I really like Muse and would hate to return it so your help will be appreciated.
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Honestly, I had no intention to go back here but yesterday I played brand new "Alita, Battle Angel" 3D BD (DTS 7.1 audio) and, despite pauses during the playback I had a drop in audio in 88th min of the movie. That's new since so far I got that only when I was watching older disks and without pausing playback. Since you offered your help I will be glad to see if you can repeat that. Now, because in Europe we have movies edited for groups of countries (with no apparent pattern, looks like they choose languages randomly except that they always manipulate with subtitles or original sound in such way that we cannot buy the cheapest German BD) it may not be exactly same as the one you can buy in US. Therefore I would like to ask you to check 2 older disks that I bought in US: Bee Gees BD "One Night Only" (Eagle Vision, ERSBD3001) and "Dido Live" DVD (Arista 82876-65809-9). Both were played without interruptions (DTS audio) and the speakers went silence in vicinity of 90th minute. The reason I can't give you precise time is that these are concerts and I played them as a sort of background music and I needed time to get to Oppo player to check the time on display. Every time that happens the info on audio format (in and out) on Muse screen disappear and return with the sound. It looks like HDMI handshake is lost for 1-2 seconds and then it comes back. I could blame (at least partially) Oppo player but I have never experience such things with my 2 older SSPs. Also blaming player would require explanation why video is played uninterrupted. If you have time and willing to help I will look forward to see the result of your tests. Please note that if I experience audio drops it is 90% with DTS although it happened with DD once or twice. I am also open to ideas how to experiment with the setup to get the problem solved. The Oppo player is 105 model so I needed to downgrade HDMI input (no. 6) to 1.4 to avoid any incompatibilities. I split video and audio - video goes directly to TV (HDMI upgraded to 2.0).


There is another thing with DTS that does not work well: when I try to change surround mode from Auto to DTS sound disappears and to get it back I need ether to go to any other audio mode and then DTS or press DTS second time. That happens only when I try to change surround mode to DTS. All other modes start immediately.


Do you know if there is possibility to power down Muse HDMI outputs while the unit goes to Standby? It looks like they are always on which is not really necessary especially that Muse HDMI outputs radiate a lot of RF noise (much more than my other digital components when they are ON) and that sometimes distorts signals in coax cables.


I really like Muse and would hate to return it so your help will be appreciated.
The only title I have that you mention above is Dido Live" DVD (Arista 82876-65809-9). The others I will have to try and order. I went to test this and ran into an immediate problem in that my disc is quite badly scratched and was skipping on the OPPO player. I cleaned it with toothpaste and it seems to have come good and is no longer skipping. I just finished playing it through now with DTS and did not get any audio drops. None. I tried it again with auto decode and also no audio drop outs. This is feeding the MUSE directly from the OPPO via HDMI 2.0.
Quote:
Do you know if there is possibility to power down Muse HDMI outputs while the unit goes to Standby? It looks like they are always on which is not really necessary especially that Muse HDMI outputs radiate a lot of RF noise (much more than my other digital components when they are ON) and that sometimes distorts signals in coax cables.
Sorry, but how are you measuring RF noise on active HDMI outputs? (please give specifics) This makes no sense to me whatsoever. 'IF' the HDMI was outputing a lot of RF (and I dont beleive it is) then it would have no effect on your digital COAX cable if you are using normally shielded cables. There is no way its even remotely possible for a HDMI port to output the sort of levels of RF you are referencing to cause any audible distortion on a coaxial cable. It sounds to me like you have some sort of grounding issue in your system if you are experiencing noise.

Quote:
There is another thing with DTS that does not work well: when I try to change surround mode from Auto to DTS sound disappears and to get it back I need ether to go to any other audio mode and then DTS or press DTS second time. That happens only when I try to change surround mode to DTS. All other modes start immediately.
Whenever you change surround modes the processor has to re-lock the signal. You should not have to change to a different audio mode to get a lock however. I tested this today and can not replicate this issue.

From what you are describing to me I believe you have a deeper problem in your system that may involve a ground loop problem. You may also have power issues; although I cannot say for sure as I am not there to see and test your system and can only guess based on what you are describing. Based on what I am reading though it does not sound like an issue with the MUSE. At least, I cant replicate the audio drop outs you are experiencing. I also cannot quantify your comments on the RF noise as this makes no sense to me. Sorry I cant be more helpful.

Edit - I forgot to add: Dido Live" DVD (Arista 82876-65809-9) I actually prefer the DD track. Seems slightly fuller to me than the DTS version. Although WSR found no difference in their testing of this disc https://widescreenreview.com/dvd_detail.php?recid=14100

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post #89 of 111 Old 07-29-2019, 04:14 PM
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The only title I have that you mention above is Dido Live" DVD (Arista 82876-65809-9). The others I will have to try and order. I went to test this and ran into an immediate problem in that my disc is quite badly scratched and was skipping on the OPPO player. I cleaned it with toothpaste and it seems to have come good and is no longer skipping. I just finished playing it through now with DTS and did not get any audio drops. None. I tried it again with auto decode and also no audio drop outs. This is feeding the MUSE directly from the OPPO via HDMI 2.0.

Sorry, but how are you measuring RF noise on active HDMI outputs? (please give specifics) This makes no sense to me whatsoever. 'IF' the HDMI was outputing a lot of RF (and I dont beleive it is) then it would have no effect on your digital COAX cable if you are using normally shielded cables. There is no way its even remotely possible for a HDMI port to output the sort of levels of RF you are referencing to cause any audible distortion on a coaxial cable. It sounds to me like you have some sort of grounding issue in your system if you are experiencing noise.



Whenever you change surround modes the processor has to re-lock the signal. You should not have to change to a different audio mode to get a lock however. I tested this today and can not replicate this issue.

From what you are describing to me I believe you have a deeper problem in your system that may involve a ground loop problem. You may also have power issues; although I cannot say for sure as I am not there to see and test your system and can only guess based on what you are describing. Based on what I am reading though it does not sound like an issue with the MUSE. At least, I cant replicate the audio drop outs you are experiencing. I also cannot quantify your comments on the RF noise as this makes no sense to me. Sorry I cant be more helpful.

Edit - I forgot to add: Dido Live" DVD (Arista 82876-65809-9) I actually prefer the DD track. Seems slightly fuller to me than the DTS version. Although WSR found no difference in their testing of this disc https://widescreenreview.com/dvd_detail.php?recid=14100
Thank you for checking. I can repeat audio drops with specific disks only with Muse but my other 2 SSPs don't cause any troubles. The rules are simple: you always check the new component in the system.
HDMI (as every digital circuit) emits a lot of digital noise that makes RF interference. There are scientific papers on that as well a lot of discussion on AVS forum.

The easiest way to check emission at home without scientific instruments (such exists) is to use HDMI cable that is moderately screened and run it (2ft apart) along coax cable that conducts TV signal. You power up HDMI output and slowly move coax cable to HDMI cable observing quality of TV picture. When you see first distortions this is the moment when noise from HDMI cable hits coax signal. Then you repeat the procedure with other HDMI devices and write measured distance for each device. The one with the highest distance is the one with highest emission from HDMI.

Switching to DTS mode: When I try to change surround mode to DTS and nothing happens (the sound is off) I have only two choices: either wait forever or bring the sound back. I simply choose the latter and press DTS surround mode button second time.
Your final suggestion is that whatever I am experiencing is caused by ground loop problem. It would be that strangest problem of this kind as it can be seen only in 88th minute of playback of specific disks, does not allow to switch to DTS surround mode (but allow other modes) and for some reason it affects only Muse. That would be hard to prove and we are not candidates for Nobel Prize in Physics next year.

I think we need to end our discussion, it does not move things forward.
Another reason is your post you submitted on 25th of July:
"Last night I updated to new and latest Firmware and did further testing. Each new firmware version is bringing expanded features to the HTML interface and options to the MUSE. One fantastic new feature is the option to roll back a HDMI port to 1.4 for legacy products. This is bound to please those who have older HDMI devices that are proving problematic in 2.0 environments"
This supposed to be the the brand new beta firmware with brand new feature "HDMI input configuration" but this feature is described in manual (hard copy) that was in the box with my Muse in April with footnote "20181202" and that the beginning of December last year.

Also in my answer I wrote at the end if you noticed that after changing configuration there is a message on the screen "ACT 4 needs to ..."
You pay such great attention to details (as beta tester should) especially to my posts that I can't believe that you have not noticed and corrected me that the message actually is:
"The action will reboot Act 4 and update HDMI settings. Are you sure you want to do this?"
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K Z is offline  
post #90 of 111 Old 07-29-2019, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Thank you for checking. I can repeat audio drops with specific disks only with Muse but my other 2 SSPs don't cause any troubles. The rules are simple: you always check the new component in the system.
Of course, you always check new components. That sort of goes without saying. Are you able to repeat audio drops at the same point on each disc? I just find it really strange and odd that no matter what I try, I cannot replicate what you describe.


Quote:
HDMI (as every digital circuit) emits a lot of digital noise that makes RF interference. There are scientific papers on that as well a lot of discussion on AVS forum.
What I am saying is that the amount of RF that is emitted from a HDMI port is negligible and not enough to affect a shielded coaxial cable. This is easily demonstrated.


Quote:
The easiest way to check emission at home without scientific instruments (such exists) is to use HDMI cable that is moderately screened and run it (2ft apart) along coax cable that conducts TV signal. You power up HDMI output and slowly move coax cable to HDMI cable observing quality of TV picture. When you see first distortions this is the moment when noise from HDMI cable hits coax signal. Then you repeat the procedure with other HDMI devices and write measured distance for each device. The one with the highest distance is the one with highest emission from HDMI.
This is not a good methodology. Are you aware that the amount of noise on a FTA Coax signal is FAR greater than what is potentially emitted from a HDMI port?!? I can measure incoming noise on a FTA coax signal easily. I can not measure noise out of a HDMI port. For starters you are referencing ambient noise in your methodolgy and not what is coming off a HDMI port.

Quote:
Switching to DTS mode: When I try to change surround mode to DTS and nothing happens (the sound is off) I have only two choices: either wait forever or bring the sound back. I simply choose the latter and press DTS surround mode button second time.
Your final suggestion is that whatever I am experiencing is caused by ground loop problem. It would be that strangest problem of this kind as it can be seen only in 88th minute of playback of specific disks, does not allow to switch to DTS surround mode (but allow other modes) and for some reason it affects only Muse. That would be hard to prove and we are not candidates for Nobel Prize in Physics next year.
I suggested it may be a ground loop issue in relation the noise comments you made. I do not beleive a ground loop is responsible for your audio issue. Please read carefully what I wrote. Given you experience this issue at the 88th minute of playback of specific discs (which I cant replicate the nominated disc I had in my collection) I surmise that that there is a problem elsehwere. I could be wrong - but I doubt it.

Quote:
I think we need to end our discussion, it does not move things forward.
You understand I am trying to help you right? Ive bothered to spend my time to test the same disc you nominated as being problematic. I cant find an audio drop out with it. Sorry, but i cant.
Quote:
Another reason is your post you submitted on 25th of July:
"Last night I updated to new and latest Firmware and did further testing. Each new firmware version is bringing expanded features to the HTML interface and options to the MUSE. One fantastic new feature is the option to roll back a HDMI port to 1.4 for legacy products. This is bound to please those who have older HDMI devices that are proving problematic in 2.0 environments"
This supposed to be the the brand new beta firmware with brand new feature "HDMI input configuration" but this feature is described in manual (hard copy) that was in the box with my Muse in April with footnote "20181202" and that the beginning of December last year.
Yes, you are correct. I had missed (or forgot) this feature somehow and when I saw it I mistakenly thought it was part of latest firmware.

Quote:
Also in my answer I wrote at the end if you noticed that after changing configuration there is a message on the screen "ACT 4 needs to ..."
You pay such great attention to details (as beta tester should) especially to my posts that I can't believe that you have not noticed and corrected me that the message actually is:
"The action will reboot Act 4 and update HDMI settings. Are you sure you want to do this?"
Yes, I realised you did not post the full reboot message. I was not aware and it was not clear to me I was supposed to fill in the blank like some sort of game show.

Lets stick to the facts here: Which as I see them are that you are experiencing audio drop outs at certain points on certain discs. Let me ask you for the sake of clarity - Are you experiencing audio drop outs on all discs at the same point in time? Or, is it only select discs? I am trying to understand as I am finding the story you are telling hard to follow (I know English is not your first language - so I am trying to get to the bottom of the issue you are having).
jholko is offline  
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