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post #61 of 292 Old 10-01-2003, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheMadMilkman
While what you say may hold true for the enclosure, does it hold true for the Drivers? It's fairly well-known that Wilson has their drivers custom manufactured and then further modify them at the factory. Is that something that a DIYer, regardless of how many cabinets they have built, can just jump up and do?
That's a good point.

It is likely many speaker manufacturers "modify" their drivers because it is an effective marketing tool and helps distinguish their product from the numerous other products using the same "base" drivers (like the Focal drivers used in Wilson speakers). Simply adding a different surround or dustcap might give nearly the same performance, but with an easily identifiable "modified" visual quality.

In many cases, there may not be a raw driver on the market that offers precisely the combination of T/S parameters and performance (off-axis response, distortion products, etc.) that the speaker manufacturer wants. Perhaps there is a low distortion wide bandwidth driver that he/she really likes, but would prefer an Fs 10% lower (and perhaps he is willing to trade some of the distortion or bandwidth performance to that end). In most cases, it is a matter of convinience... by having drivers fine tuned to your design, it is easier to achieve your original targets. It isn't impossible to do otherwise, but it may cost more in terms of different drivers, additional electronics, more time optimizing crossover design, etc.

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post #62 of 292 Old 10-01-2003, 03:38 PM
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From the Wilson Audio website:

After delivery to Wilson Audio, the driver motors are further modified by the Wilson Audio engineering staff. Among other modifications, added motors (magnets) are integrated into the assembly, special damping compounds are added, and different fluid cooling materials are used.

This is an honest question for you, Bigus. Do you think that the adjustments claimed here are for marketing or as an "easily identifiable modified visual quality," as you say? I'm not trying to argue, I just want your opinion. I like to think that they would add to the sound quality, but then again, I'm a subjectivist. :)
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post #63 of 292 Old 10-01-2003, 04:11 PM
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I think people get too hung up on the port as a source of sound. The main purpose of the port is to tune the box
for the drivers.
Agreed. But we want to limit any bad sound (chuffing, etc.) that could emanate from the port due to improper design.

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It's fairly well-known that Wilson has their drivers custom manufactured and then further modify them at the factory. Is that something that a DIYer, regardless of how many cabinets they have built, can just jump up and do?
No, most DIYs could not successfully modify a driver (besides adding some resistors across the terminals, etc.). However, it's my understanding that Wilson uses standard 18" Aura Seismic drivers in the XS.

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these DIY'ers actually think that, with mere casual inspection, that they have found a design flaw like port size in a Wilson speaker.
As mentioned by previous posters, it is a design decision, not a flaw. If you read the post I referenced on page 2, you'll note that various respected AES members have commented on the port size of the Wilson.

Just in case I need to repeat myself, I think the XS is an incredible sub and a good design (I heard no audible port compression issues or other anomalies during my brief listening session with the unit).
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post #64 of 292 Old 10-01-2003, 05:19 PM
 
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Greg--for my $0.02,and, as an owner of the XS, I too think it is a terrific sub
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post #65 of 292 Old 10-01-2003, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Greg, you casually conclude that Wilson made a design decision for the XS port design as if to accomodate some marketing requirement or shipping constraint. My opinion of Wilson compared to any other brand is that they are no holds barred. Any design decision at Wilson is tilted towards better performance, not for cost reduction and not for marketing appeal.

True Wilson fans of which apparently there are enough to keep them in business come to Wilson for their sound. Not for how many inches their port opening is, or how close do they come to DIY cookbook theoretical speaker models. All of that is BS. How does it SOUND is what counts.

As any of us who designs and implements complex systems knows, first order effects (those most commonly known to laymen or novices) are rarely the end of the story. You have to experiment on many different hypotheses over years of product development in the lab and field to study, characterize, and finally address second and third order issues, something armchair speaker designers will never have a clue about. You can't - unless you spend your lifetime as a speaker craftsperson.

Having AES experts comment on port design is one thing, having DIY'ers comment on WIlson port design is completely another. OB can comment on surgical procedures for cervical cancer, but that won't somehow ever make me enough of an expert to comment on the procedure.

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post #66 of 292 Old 10-02-2003, 01:21 AM
 
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Morbuis,

Quote:
It's not a case of bigger is better with the size of the port - it is a matter of tuning


You are correct that a port tunes but also air velocity(optimum air flow) comes into the equation.Design programs will suggest port diameter and length to give the correct tune.But you must keep an eye on port air velocity, as reducing the port diameter will increase velocity to the point of becoming audible.Thats why I can happily suggest that the port size be increased to 8".:(

TheMadMilkman,

Quote:
While what you say may hold true for the enclosure, does it hold true for the Drivers? It's fairly well-known that Wilson has their drivers custom manufactured and then further modify them at the factory. Is that something that a DIYer, regardless of how many cabinets they have built, can just jump up and do?


Well, the AV15 is a magnificent driver.3.8 L of clean linear displacement, and most High-End subwoofers cannot reach this goal.Let me give a suggestion at what it would take to outclass pretty much all commercial competition.Two AV15's in a 15ft^3 box tuned to 18hz.Put 800watts (total) and I come up with 114db at 16hz.BEFORE figuring in room gain.There are no commercial subwoofers that can reach this goal, and room gain isn't even taken into account.Room gain can be another 8-12db of clean output.Then we get to even more powerful drivers, the Tumult.There is no subwoofer that I know of that uses such a very high excursion driver.BTW, distortion levels will be lower than any commercial subwoofer on earth.Well perhaps not with the B-DEAP.:D

Quote:
It's fairly well-known that Wilson has their drivers custom manufactured and then further modify them at the factory. Is that something that a DIYer, regardless of how many cabinets they have built, can just jump up and do?


We have far better flexability.I can decide how big the enclosure needs to be, and how low I need to tune.I don't have to accept what another designer thought was acceptable, as I can change all these aspects to my liking.Why does it matter if the driver is modified or not? The drivers that we can purchase are one step above commercial offerings.

tzucc,

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Not for how many inches their port opening is, or how close do they come to DIY cookbook theoretical speaker models. All of that is BS. How does it SOUND is what counts.


Yes sound quality is prerequisite.But some of us actually care about what constituents the sound quality.So port size, building speakers, is not BS.

Quote:
Having AES experts comment on port design is one thing, having DIY'ers comment on WIlson port design is completely another


Why? You have absolutely no idea how much experience some of us have with building subwoofers.Please explain what the difference is between an AES expert, and a knowledgeable DIY'er?

Regards
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post #67 of 292 Old 10-02-2003, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheMadMilkman
This is an honest question for you, Bigus. Do you think that the adjustments claimed here are for marketing or as an "easily identifiable modified visual quality," as you say? I'm not trying to argue, I just want your opinion. I like to think that they would add to the sound quality, but then again, I'm a subjectivist. :)
I definitely think such changes would alter the sonic characteristics of the driver. I had written a lengthy explanation of the engineering trade-offs inherent in driver and speaker design, but decided it was more than I needed to say. So, I'll just leave it at "modifications to the driver will likely result in different sonic characteristics, and it is up to the end user to decide whether that constitutes an improvement or not."

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post #68 of 292 Old 10-02-2003, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tzucc
Greg, you casually conclude that Wilson made a design decision for the XS port design as if to accomodate some marketing requirement or shipping constraint. My opinion of Wilson compared to any other brand is that they are no holds barred. Any design decision at Wilson is tilted towards better performance, not for cost reduction and not for marketing appeal.
You are incorrect. Let me rephrase that... you are wrong. Maybe that wasn't clear enough? You are brainwashed. Yes, I think that adequately describes your condition.

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As any of us who designs and implements complex systems knows, first order effects (those most commonly known to laymen or novices) are rarely the end of the story. You have to experiment on many different hypotheses over years of product development in the lab and field to study, characterize, and finally address second and third order issues, something armchair speaker designers will never have a clue about. You can't - unless you spend your lifetime as a speaker craftsperson.
You are making yourself look foolish. After telling some very intelligent and/or experienced people that they don't have adequate credentials to comment on Wilson's design, you begin hypothesizing on aspects of speaker design yourself - something you obviously know nothing about.

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post #69 of 292 Old 10-02-2003, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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bigus, that's the entire point. I am not theorizing about speaker design, because there is no point in even trying to get into it unless you are going to get all the way into it, that is, if you are going to try and critique advanced designs like Wilson.

Intelligence, such as it may be, on your part, has nothing to do with experience or knowledge in speaker design. Experience needed to make Wilson level product is quite beyond your means unless you own your own speaker company and have been in business for over ten years doing it. Playing around with plywood, carpenters glue and drivers off the 'net won't cut it.

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post #70 of 292 Old 10-02-2003, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tzucc
Intelligence, such as it may be, on your part, has nothing to do with experience or knowledge in speaker design. Experience needed to make Wilson level product is quite beyond your means unless you own your own speaker company and have been in business for over ten years doing it. Playing around with plywood, carpenters glue and drivers off the 'net won't cut it.
For about the sixth time, low frequency loudspeaker enclosure design is not complex. It is decidedly simple, as long as you are talking about the more basic enclosure types (which the XS certainly is). As far as typical engineering design problems go, this one is relative child's play. And, in this case, simulations are very accurate in terms of final system response. It doesn't take very long to go through all of the "higher order" effects either, such as port pipe-resonance, cabinet standing waves, cabinet flexural modes, etc.

I'm sorry, but your insistence that there is some "magic" involved in the creation of the XS just doesn't make it so. It's a helluva sub, but it's not magical. If you know nothing about speaker design, as you so readily admit, then how in the hell do you know it takes "ten years" of experience designing sub systems to evaluate a product at the "Wilson level?" Is that just a number you pulled outta your ass because it makes you feel better? I surely hope it does... because it certainly doesn't make you look any better.

And for that matter, what does owning your own company have to do with any of this? Is good marketing sense a prerequisite for good engineering abilities? If you believe that, you are truly one of the select few brainwashed "elite." Take pride in that.

And if the rest of your statement weren't ridiculous on its own, you make some jab at "drivers off the 'net" not cutting it, completely glazing over the fact that I can order exactly the same drivers Wilson uses in his XS... but would choose not to, since there are better sub drivers available.

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post #71 of 292 Old 10-02-2003, 10:20 AM
 
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My opinion of Wilson compared to any other brand is that they are no holds barred


Lets see.The XS uses a modified first iteration of the Siesmic 8196 driver.It's Vd is roughtly 3.5L.Stryke AV15 is just under 4L and the Tumult is 5.1L of linear displacement.The Stryke AV15 provides more clean output than the 8196 driver.

I consider duel AV15's tuned to 18hz in a 15ft^3 box to be great "no holds barred" solution.With 1 kilowatt in total, you can forget about everything else.I can see 114 db down to 16hz BEFORE figuring in room gain.There is simply no commercial subwoofer on earth(besides maybe the B-DEAP) that can produce this amount of clean output.Although it might be a strong generalization, its backed up with some rather strong logic.:)

Of course, I'm talking specifically about box subwoofers here.Overall cost should exceed $1k, depending on the finish.Anyone that has heard an AV15 will agree that its one of the best sounding drivers out there.I could just as easily build an even more powerful subwoofer, using multiple AV15 drivers in an even bigger enclosure.Unthinkable performance(within reason), at a great cost.I don't suffer from the usual compromises.

The biggest compromise in commercial design, is enclosure size.Other big compromises are in driver design, the amount of clean output that the driver can provide, and tuning incorrectly with incorrect porting.The trick is to expand on these shortcomings.Many people don't like massive enclosures(greater efficiency), so they opt for smaller enclosures(less efficiency) that suffer from power compression.Hoffmans Iron Law has not been defeated yet.

At the end of the scale you can use even "better" drivers such as the Tumult, or the higher Aura 18" drivers.My previous solution can be outperformed by other serious DIY designs, and in turn I can outperform those other serious DIY designs, and so it goes on and on ad infinitum.So you see that "no holds barred" is just a relative value.:D For those with rooms that are bigger than 10,000 cubic foot, these solutions are absolutely paramount.For me personally, that would entail 8 AV15's in an IB.The possibilities are endless.

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post #72 of 292 Old 10-02-2003, 10:34 AM
 
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I'm sorry, but your insistence that there is some "magic" involved in the creation of the XS just doesn't make it so. It's a helluva sub, but it's not magical.


Yeah, no magic.However with cables, you do need a good dose of faith.:)

And I'm so sick and tired of certain individuals that make fictitious statements regarding topics that they no nothing about. As I've said before, its quite easy to build a design that can outperform many commercial subwoofers.There is no magic as Bigus has asserted.

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Experience needed to make Wilson level product is quite beyond your means unless you own your own speaker company and have been in business for over ten years doing it.


Huh? Thats the biggest load of nonsense that I've ever heard.So owning a speaker company is now a prerequisite to outperform a Wilson product? I think that you should rethink what you are thinking.:confused: Perhaps you are forgetting that there is one individual on this very forum that sold his Wilson Watts for a modified Orion design.

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Experience needed to make Wilson level product is quite beyond your means


Says who? Another fallacious claim.This is an argument from ignorance.Do you have any idea what credentials I have? This is how it starts.One individual assumes that its impossible for another to approach or better another design, who knows absolutely nothing themselves.:rolleyes:.BTW, why was the Wilson XS brought up in the first place? Specifically the port issue? The poster that brought it up should have known that people would nitpick the design.Its a great subwoofer, but its certainly not magic.

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post #73 of 292 Old 10-02-2003, 02:46 PM
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Having AES experts comment on port design is one thing, having DIY'ers comment on WIlson port design is completely another.
Hence the reason I was passing along those AES member's comments. I didn't expect you to believe me (or the other proponents of DIY on this board) but I thought you might listen to some members of AES.

As mentioned above, basic sub designs are not very complex. However, full-range speaker design is an order of magnitude more difficult and thus presents many more design challenges / compromises. I know I am not capable (nor have the tools) to design something that would compete with Wilson's main speakers (although it's fun to try).
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post #74 of 292 Old 10-02-2003, 02:57 PM
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Because an individual (or group of individuals) has chosen a DIY project for building a sub, and because they chose to do this as a hobby versus a business, one can not assume they are not as knowledgeable as the individual who formed the business. Subs in particular are not rocket science. There is a HUGE volume of technical literature available to guide one on the subject. And if the hobbyist happens to be technically inclined, then all the more reason that he/she can build a sub that is as good or better than a traditional audio business can build. The fact that someone chooses to go into the audio business does not imply a specific set of knowledge of the product they are building (have you heard some of the speakers on the market built by audio companies???)

In fact, given retail pricing versus DIY cost, one could build twice the sub at less than the retail price of the "professionally" manufactured product.
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post #75 of 292 Old 10-02-2003, 03:35 PM
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Audioguy,
How do you calculate the labor costs in DIY projects? Design time? Going to Home Depot time?

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post #76 of 292 Old 10-02-2003, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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bigus, have you ever built a sub? If so, have you measured it to compare performance against commercial products? In order, of course, to prove that building a good performing sub is childs play?

Somehow I doubt it... I think you have been reading speaker cookbooks and throw around alot of terms which you haven't really put into use building a product.

I can certainly Wilson products and listen to them. I haven't seen yet the bigus brand out there yet. Until I do, you're all talk.

I, on the other hand, am not claiming that anything is simple, but that indeed, nothing is simple when you are going for high performance.

If you are saying that the definition of good sub performance is plywood, AUra drivers off the net, and carpenters glue, then I make a special case for you: there is indeed NO magic in speaker design. By definition.

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post #77 of 292 Old 10-02-2003, 10:34 PM
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Tzucc

While I applaud you for being such a loyal follower of Wilson Audio, I think it is reasonable to state that the arguments presented against yours are extremely strong.

Aristotle once said:

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Low Frequency Cabinet Design and Construction isn't as complex as you make it out to be.

For instance, the Adire Audio Tumult. A huge amount of linear displacement, extremely low power compression, and a ruler flat BL/KMS Curve. One of the ultimate "super" subs.

We take 4 of these drivers, and build a cabinet out of MDF or Marine Grade Plywood, using EXTENSIVE bracing systems, and walls that are 3-4 inches thick. Overbuild, overbuild, overbuild......

Add 3000 watts and you have a beautiful sounding, low octave house shaker. It will crush the output of the XS and cost 4 times as less. It will also sound absolutely wonderful granted the installation is proper....

Once again, it isn't as complex as you make it out to be.

Best wishes to everyone on AVS....

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post #78 of 292 Old 10-03-2003, 12:29 AM
 
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Quote:
bigus, have you ever built a sub? If so, have you measured it to compare performance against commercial products?


I've been building subwoofers for more than seven years.I've compared directly against Velodyne HGS 18", Servo 15 and the Revel B15.Further, I've gain access to the JMlab Utopia II and the Linn Melodik.

In my store, I have access to many High-End subwoofers.I have directly made comparisons, jotted down response charts and have bottomed out these commercial designs, but it wasn't easy.:) Physics will dictate the performance potential based on the necessarily information.There is simply no comparison.

I still don't know what building subwoofers, has to do with understanding how subwoofers can be outperformed.You don't actually have to build them yourselves in order to extrapolate the information needed to find out which subwoofer will supercede another.

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In order, of course, to prove that building a good performing sub is childs play?


This is ridiculous.Do yourself a favour and read all the threads in the DIY section.Find DIY sites, and learn for yourself.In fact go to HomeTheaterForum.They have some of the best experts there on building subwoofers.We can outperform any subwoofer given time and a plan.

Quote:
If you are saying that the definition of good sub performance is plywood, AUra drivers off the net, and carpenters glue, then I make a special case for you: there is indeed NO magic in speaker design. By definition


Strawman.Perhaps you could provide some context.I don't think that anyone gave any definitions for good sub performance.Besides, its ambiguous in and of itself.

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I am not theorizing about speaker design


Ah, but you are theorizing on our abilities to match or exceed Wilson designs.Simply fallacious at best.And its not about flaming a product.Its about questioning statements.If port size is brought into equation, then I can happily question comments that pertain to it.I've never claimed that I could outperform a Wilson speaker.But its not impossible either.

The biggest advantage that I have over Wilson is time.I have all the time in the world to enhance designs and make revisions.Wilson has obvious time contraints.Afterall, no-one started questioning until oneobgyn brought up the point about inadequate porting.Why that point had to be brought into this discussion is a mystery.

I think that he knows pretty well what the purpose of that comment was for.Port size for the Wilson XS shouldn't even pertain to this discussion, and passing a comment made on other thread into this one is certainly odd.Isn't that a violation of discussion? I'm sure that it is.

I feel that the port size is slightly inadequate.Port velocity should be high at serious levels, but since there are more "qualified" participants that actually know nothing about the subject, I guess their comments should take precedence over mine:rolleyes:.

Some might feel that this is irrelevant.I also think that its irrelevant because it should never have been brought up in the first place.But that is besides the point.We aren't trying to be nasty, its just that these comments seem absurd.Sorry but thats the way that I feel about it.

All that I see is Wilson patting, nothing more.Again, none of this would be happening if it wasn't for the comment made on inadequate porting.The only way is to learn, and that entails going to various sites and asking questions.I understand your inclination to disagree with some of us, but there is a wealth of information that is more than willing to put your sceptism to rest.

Regards
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post #79 of 292 Old 10-03-2003, 01:02 AM
 
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Quote:
How do you calculate the labor costs in DIY projects?


Good question.Yes the design time(R&D) comes into equation.I order from the internet, so I don't worry about driving far distances.So in that case, it depends on the individual.Everything that I need is within close quarters, and its reasonable to assume that others might not be so lucky with such close resources.

John Y. Chao, the thing is that I don't worry about labour.Personally I enjoy what I do, and its not some heavy burdon on my shoulders.To others that are not technically inclined, or have a desire to build components themselves, the labour is a factor that shouldn't be overlooked.If I had to substitute a magical charge for labour duties, then it would be around R5($0.80c) every day.Not too shabby heh? Its like the IB that I installed the other day.I took about five hours to build the manafold, and install it into my friends attic.Five hours is absolutely nothing.In fact its completely laughable.

Wilson designers probably take about 4-5 weeks per speaker.The problem is that they make a living out of it.I usually don't charge anything for installation, but the manafold and driver arrays do take time and proper care into making sure that everthing is properly secured.But that is not my driving passion.So labour is a non-issue for me.Perhaps one day there will be an IB service, but for now its strictly for friends and some clients that I've been affiliated with.

I wouldn't mind starting a business myself, but we can't have everything.:) Maybe in a few years, who knows.Anyway, its off to work and I'll talk soon.

Regards
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post #80 of 292 Old 10-03-2003, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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talk is cheap. Wilson has well known product regarded by everybody except for a couple of would be rocket scientists DIY'ers, who haven't even shown us one pic of a home built sub to qualify as a DIY'er.

This being the above $20K forum, why don't you retire to the DIY forum, grab your pipe and smoking jacket, and theorize into the wee hours of the night about your incredible paper designs and how Wilson ain't got nuttin on you.

Let those of us who choose to buy real product from real vendors discuss our equipment.

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post #81 of 292 Old 10-03-2003, 10:16 AM
 
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PointSource,

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For instance, the Adire Audio Tumult. A huge amount of linear displacement, extremely low power compression, and a ruler flat BL/KMS Curve. One of the ultimate "super" subs.


Thats right.The Tumult is a fabulous driver, but it works best in smaller enclosures.For those that need great output within a tiny enclosure, they are brilliant solutions.Still its not out of the question to use a massive enclosure, 14 cubic feet with each driver in a push-pull configuration ala SVS B4+.I could see 124 db down to 16hz WITHOUT room gain.Figure another 8-12 db of additional gain.But we won't listen at that level, surely not?:D

Indeed a flatter BL curve means lower distortion and greater linearity.In fact, drivers using this technology can gain 50-100% more completely flat (less than ±2.5% change) BL-versus-excursion range over any other motor design.And in terms of driver linearity, square is good! So in this regard the Tumult is one of the "best" drivers out there.However the High-End Aura 18" drivers achieve even greater clean excursion, but they cost several times the cost.

Some members have commented that the distortion levels are so low that it becomes hard to hear any even past Xmax.Not sure what the levels will be at Xmag, but its bound to be impressive.So in other words, at close to full excursion, the driver won't be delivering any audible driver distortion(perhaps some mild compression), but the driver will die before you realise it.Although you would measure driver distortion, the audibility of this distortion is questionable.Its the same with the Brahma 15".

You won't know that there is any distortion until its too late.Depending on how you look at it, this could be a very good thing, or a very bad thing.

http://www.87gt.com/xxx/DCP_2429.JPG

Another serious driver is the resonant engineering XXX 18".Its much like the Adire Audio Brahma, except bigger.It has the same XBl^2 motor technology, 32mm XMAX etc.

http://www.87gt.com/xxx/DCP_2445.JPG

I like this subwoofer.:)

tzucc,

Quote:
This being the above $20K forum, why don't you retire to the DIY forum


Excuse me! Since when do individuals have to own $20k equipment in order to post in this section of the forum? Is it now a prerequisite? I might not own $20k equipment, but all the money in the world cannot help you if you are going to be insolent in your views.:rolleyes:

Regards
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post #82 of 292 Old 10-03-2003, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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goneten, all I said was this forum is for 'Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20K+), and there is probably a DIY forum where you'll find DIY subs as the topic of choice.

I suppose you're free to post off topic stuff, but why sit here and tell us your 'subs' are better than (at least) one of the worlds best vendors of speakers.

I doubt you'll convince more than a handful of people that the 'sub' pictured above will come within a country mile of a Wilson sub of any kind or age.

This not about snobbery at all, it's about you claiming to beat the worlds best vendor in your garage with stuff shown above. Get out of town, fast.

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post #83 of 292 Old 10-03-2003, 11:06 AM
 
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This not about snobbery at all, it's about you claiming to beat the worlds best vendor in your garage with stuff shown above. Get out of town, fast.
I never said that the subwoofer pictures above could beat the worlds best vendor, YOU DID!:rolleyes: Try thinking hard the next time that you decide to respond.

Quote:
but why sit here and tell us your 'subs' are better than (at least) one of the worlds best vendors of speakers.
Why? Because its simple physics.You mentioned the XS as being "no holds barred".In that case, I mentioned my "no holds barred" solution.:( You make a comment, and I'll gladly give a reply.Its really that simple.

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I doubt you'll convince more than a handful of people
Trust me, I can convince more people than you can dream of.

Regards
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post #84 of 292 Old 10-03-2003, 11:32 AM
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There is a big difference between DIY and commercial audio (in terms of costs). I think most DIY'rs acknowledge this. With DIY we can afford to overengineer (3" thick enclosures w. bracing, etc.) because we don't care about weight or shipping costs. We can also ignore finish quality (if we choose) to save more time. It's one thing to come with a design that will 'beat' product A, it's another to run a commercially successful business that sells the design.

I am happy building designs in my garage while others are happy purchasing subs from reputable designers with a history in the audio industry. Although we take different paths, we each end up with the same result: good bass / enjoyment of our system.

If you want to try a DIY inspired design, look at Acoustic Visions's Pinnacle series of subs.


tzucc, what cost-no-object DIY designs have you listened to?
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post #85 of 292 Old 10-03-2003, 12:38 PM
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DIY is one thing I have never tried. It is occurring to me however that in the bass region (under 50 Hz) one can come with pretty good results with a ittle patience and a good understanding of loudspeakers theory. How do these compare to the wealth of knowledge or some leading speaker designer, I do not know, the proof is in the audition. Few DIY fans have access to testing facilities. The sound of a speaker is IMHO little more than the T/S parameters. Too many thinks that by just throwing numbers at a PC one can obtain infintely "perfect" design,if it were so all speakers will begin to sound a like, so perfect they would be... we are nowhere near that..

I can not tell by looking how good Goneten sub really is, but it sure is ugly :D

Frantz
Port-au-Prince, Haiti

Frantz
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post #86 of 292 Old 10-04-2003, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I have not listened to a single DIY sub of any kind, since there is no established channel for which to view them in a given area. I doubt I will travel to South Africa to see gonetens home depot radio shack cookbook design. If construction method is any indication of performance, his wood screw and glue on plywood won't cut it.

As I said, goneten, your 'designs' don't retail for $20K, so please terminate all further folly and keep to the topic of $20K plus HT Gear. No one will ever ever buy your stuff for more than $20.

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post #87 of 292 Old 10-05-2003, 12:35 AM
 
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Quote:
I have not listened to a single DIY sub of any kind


Case closed!

Quote:
As I said, goneten, your 'designs' don't retail for $20K, so please terminate all further folly and keep to the topic of $20K plus HT Gear


You were the one that challanged this design.You were the one that commented that DIY'ers couldn't compete to Wilson offerings.And it was you that changed the topic of discussion.Why does a design have to retail for $20k? We are here to talk about High-End gear, not necessarily ultra High-End prices.

Quote:
Wilson has well known product regarded by everybody except for a couple of would be rocket scientists DIY'ers, who haven't even shown us one pic of a home built sub to qualify as a DIY'er.


Argumentation by assertion(again).Firstly, I don't doubt that Wilson is a well regarded product.Not once have I asserted, or implied that Wilson is not well regarded, so your comment is completely laughable.You keep making things up for no good reason, and I'm starting to get frustrated.You are accusing me(and others) of considering Wilson as not well known, and thats a load of bull.Secondly, you make sweeping generalizations that Wilson makes products that are regarded by everyone.It might surprise you, but not everyone shares the same opinions as you do.Thirdly, I would very much appreciate it, if you would stop using stawmen to bolster your argument.Do you understand what strawmen are?

Quote:
This not about snobbery at all, it's about you claiming to beat the worlds best vendor in your garage with stuff shown above. Get out of town, fast.


Huh? Now its the worlds "best" vendor? I thought that it was one of the best.Thats a loaded question! Firstly, no-one has proven Wilson to be the worlds best vendor, so your claim is questionable.There is no such thing as "best", and you haven't even given a definition for it.Besides, Wilson is but one of many well regarded vendors.Be careful when making such sweeping generalizations, especially since you have not heard every High-End speaker.

So we have argumentation by assertion, presupposition rolled up into one massive deflated ball of strawman fallacies.This has been quite hilarious.:rolleyes:.And I'm not intentially trying to be nasty towards you, but you are being very unreasonable.The reality of this situation, is that you are unwilling to concede that its a possibility that commercial designs can be outperformed.You are simply being stubborn, thats all.You are also being very close minded.If you are unwilling to learn why you are incorrect, then its pointless to talk to you.I can explain the physics needed to help you better understand why commercial designs can be bettered.

Quote:
I doubt you'll convince more than a handful of people that the 'sub' pictured above will come within a country mile of a Wilson sub of any kind or age.


Is this supposed to be a joke? I made absolutely no claim that the above picture would outperform the XS.I never intended to convince anyone of anything.:rolleyes: Since I never intended to compare against the XS(as you have), then I'll be granted the same level of courtesy.The picture above uses the XXX 18" driver.This driver achieves 32mm Xmax! Thats one of the most powerful 18" drivers in the world right there.It would really surprise me if the 18" driver featured in the XS has even 14mm Xmax.

No Wilson subwoofer driver has this much clean travel, I'll guarantee you that.The motor is far more advanced as well.This driver includes XBL^2 technology, which further lowers distortion by a very wide margin.The XS uses no XBL^2 technology that I can tell.So far, the XS is not fairing too well.:( You know absolutely nothing about the picture above, you hypothesize based on fallacious grounds, and you have doubts.No wonder.:rolleyes:

Since XBL^2 has shown that the BL curve is relatively stable at almost all power levels, the XS drivers will start showing signs of distortion at far lower levels.Granted the Wilson XS uses 2 18" drivers(in a much bigger enclosure).The driver above is in a relatively small enclosure.Make no mistake, its still far more powerful than the driver featured in the XS.You also say "of any kind".The only other Wilson subwoofer that I'm aware of is the Watchdog.The SVS Ultra can produce greater clean output down low than this subwoofer, so I'm really stumped as to why you would mention Wilsons lesser subwoofers.

Just remember that you are basically forcing me to point out these aspects.As far as I'm concerned, you are the one that doesn't want to be convinced.

Quote:
why sit here and tell us your 'subs' are better than (at least) one of the worlds best vendors of speakers.


Some simple physics.Lets talk about comparisons.An 18" driver is not necessarily more powerful than a 12" driver.Why? Because it essentially tells you nothing.All things being equal, the 18" driver will achieve greater excursion than the 12" driver.An 18 inch driver has 2.25 times the surface area of a 12 inch driver.If the excursion limit of the voice coil is 1 inch on the 18, the 12 would have to move 2.25 inches to move the same amount of air. The SVS Ultra for example can easily outgun the Velodyne HGS18, and this has been documented, measured and verified.

For any given power level, the larger cone has to move a shorter distance within the voice coil gap to move the same amount of air.The magnetic field in the voice coil gap is linear over a range, but approaches non-linear at the limits.So the other factor for keeping distortion low, in addition to a stiff lightweight cone and amplifier not driven to clipping, is the suspension.It must be linear in the the linear region of the magnetic gap, and non-linear in the region at the excursion limits.This is hard to do when suspension travel is great, and easier to do when the suspension travel is a shorter length.

Now listen very carefully.The surface area together with the drivers linear excursion will dictate how much air(displacement) it can move.Since the XS driver apparently has 3.5 L VD(displacement), it also has (2) 18" drivers.Now the AV15 achieves 3.8 L VD.Greater clean output because the drivers linear excursion is slightly greater.Use (2) AV15's in a 15ft^3(or slightly greater) box tuned to 18hz.In-room response will dip to 15hz or slightly lower.It will have the capability to move more air(displacement).The drivers featured in the XS were probably some of the best in its day.But its far from revolutionary by todays standards, and this is why you can achieve greater clean excursion with slightly smaller(but more capable) sized drivers.

This might come across as some lecture to you, but you must understand where I'm coming from.How else do you expect to understand what is going on.This option should outgun the XS.Thats not mean't to be a knock off.This is the most simple explanation that I can possible come up with.If you don't listen, or want to learn then there is nothing more to talk about.If you want to understand further, then you can ask me some questions and I will gladly answer them for you.

http://home.rochester.rr.com/wesnanc...edsub_0011.jpg

This is a much better looking sub.:)

Regards
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post #88 of 292 Old 10-05-2003, 12:50 AM
 
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I can not tell by looking how good Goneten sub really is, but it sure is ugly
Yeah, it is kinda ugly.But its going to kick some serious a$$.:D

Regards
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post #89 of 292 Old 10-05-2003, 02:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by goneten


You were the one that challanged this design.You were the one that commented that DIY'ers couldn't compete to Wilson offerings.And it was you that changed the topic of discussion.Why does a design have to retail for $20k? We are here to talk about High-End gear, not necessarily ultra High-End prices.
in addition to your other failings in logic and syntax, you still fail to comprehend the quite specific topic of this forum, which is, once again,
"Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)".

What part of $20K plus don't you comprehend.
If you can't comprehend this simple equation:
$20K > (the price of goneten home depot sub = 0)
then you really don't have any business even spelling the word physics let alone use speaker cookbook terms like Xmax.

On the other hand, if you do indeed pass the above math test, then please evict yourself from this forum and head to a DIY forum, where you may hope to convince people there you are meaningful.

There is nothing wrong with DIY - just take it to another playground.
Your credibility with people who buy real product is zero.

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post #90 of 292 Old 10-05-2003, 05:59 AM
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I don't think goneten and bigus should leave the forum. I think it makes for a healthy discussion when people bring up alternatives* . It is natural that the people who engage in such discussions strongly believe their point of view is correct and some are very passionate about it.

If I was in the market to spend 20G's on a sub, I would definitely like to hear that it is possible that other, less expensive designs may out perform it before I spent my money. Therefore, I believe that, though not terribly on topic to your original thread (cool room...I hope you get lots of happiness from it !!!), I do think that DIY designs vs High-end commercial designs is a healthy discussion as long as it does not get personal.

I don't always agree with everything bigus and goneten say, but I do believe they know a heck of a lot more about speaker design than I do, so I always look to learn.



* Except the nutcases in the software forum who thought sw1 & 2 were really good movies -- they need to be committed right away as they are totaly insane :).
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