Join Date: Sep 2003
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|Originally posted by tzucc
I think we can sum up this debate as follows:
1) there is a group of people that owns high end equipment, probably hasn't owned DIY equipment, and believes that the R&D experience, large development budget, and real engineers results in commercial product far far beyond performance of 99.999% of DIY designs.
2) another group who believes the above hurdles can easily be overcome by self study and advice from the DIY community.
Each reader of this thread can come to his own conclusion.
I belong to group 1 and believe that group 2 has a much less strict definition of high performance, so then is happy with what performance they have achieved and see little material difference with real 'audiophile' subs. Good for them, they have saved lots of money. I have saved lots of time and have incredible performance.
|Originally posted by FrantzM
I have never owned a DIY (if I do not count the Dynaco Stereo 70 and PAS 3, I had while in college:o ). Progress in Audio has come from relatively small companies. Who do you think is producing one of the best speakers around? Sony or Wilson? According to your reasoning the best Hi-End gear would come from Sony, etc or !!??Bose???:confused: ) not from Wilson or Magnepan or Thiele or Dynaudio or Alon, etc. The same could be said about Electronics. Who has the largest R&D budget, better facilities and the most engineers? Sony or Krell? Yamaha or Audio Research? , Siemens or Burmester? Through the history of Hi-End progress have come from small companies with dedicated often lone engineers/designers: Quad, Linn-Sondek, Harman Kardon, New York Audio Labs (Julius Futterman of The OTL amplifiers fame), Revox, Nagra, Mac Intosh, Marantz, Magnepan, Infinity, Kharma, Conrad Johnson, Apogee, Martin Logan, EAR, Spectral, Krell, Vandersteen, Aerial... Wilson Audio,etc ...None of these companies was funded with millions of dollars and vast amount of research. They were funded by enthusiasts you can easily call DIYselfers, some of them may not even have been engineers to start with.
The point that you may not want to agree with is that a subwoofer is not that difficult to do if one takes the time to learn and is not constrained by commercial considerations. To build one of the best subwoofers around, Wilson had to build a refrigerator-sized- box with two excellent drivers and ports sized in a way Dave Wilson finds adequate. Is this the best subwoofer one can have for this amount of money? I do not think so. IBs are the ultimate when it comes to subwoofers and the same amount of money will lend you an IB of extraordinary performances and sound quality.
To sum up my position: It is eminently difficult to replicate the performance of Wilson main speakers with a DIY design. Loudspeakers design is the most arcane and intricate area of music reproduction technologies BUT, subwoofers surpassing both in on-paper and Sound Quality performances most commercial offerings are economically achievable with DIY.
|Originally posted by scooter_29
Now what is funny about Bose is that they do have incredible R&D with incredible products that they made that have never seen the light of day.
|Compared to Wilson, however, 99% of DIY'ers are constrained with respect to material choice, ability to get custom drivers, list goes on and on|
|but I am suspicious of anybody who claims they can beat a professional like Dave Wilson on the very first try. Heck, I could build a better sub than the Wilson XS, but not on the first shot. It would take me a while, I am certain.
There are some on this forum I am sure who have built several systems, but they are really the minority of the DIYers, not the majority.
|Originally posted by tzucc
Instead Wilson has NO commercial constraints, as purely manifested by the XS, and can focus their R&D budget on optimal performance.
|Compared to Wilson, however, 99% of DIY'ers are constrained with respect to material choice, ability to get custom drivers, list goes on and on.|
|The point is good product comes from years of experimentation.|
|You don't get there in one year by reading speaker cookbooks, glue and plywood.|
|It is false to even think that DIY can EASILY outperform the better commercial offerings.|
|Originally posted by thebland
The wheel was re-invented.
|Bottom line, DIY designs follow the age old design of a good driver, box and crossover. That is good 'til a point. But technology moves on and other ideas yield better results...
The DIY model are always based on old technology and designs. They typically perform as such, too... They can be great but not cutting edge excellent!!
Those that think that they can get cutting edge performance (or such) on a DIY budget are thinking with their wallets, not there heads. You can't build new technology, You can only copy old.
|Those that think that they can get cutting edge performance (or such) on a DIY budget are thinking with their wallets, not there heads.|
|Sub designs finally need to be changed. Box designs are fatally flawed given today's powerhouse, dynamic soundtracks. New designs are here. The DIY model are always based on old technology and designs. They typically perform as such, too.|