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post #121 of 292 Old 10-11-2003, 01:00 AM
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I can attest to the fact that DIY subwoofers can outperform cost-no-object commercial designs.My IB sounds oh so sweet, and it didn't cost me that much.I paid for the drivers, the amp, and the wood needed for the manafold.I don't know why some believe that very high prices equal very high performance.Sometimes you don't get what you paid for.

PT, please tone down that attitude of yours.All that I have read from you is nasty comments.You have done nothing other than disrespect other members here, when the real culprit is you.I'm sure that all here have some nasty things to say about you to.There is a big misconception that DIY subwoofers cannot equal or outperform commercial designs.You just make things worse, and start going on a tangent.Most of your points are not needed.I don't know you very well, but so far you have given me the impression of a very argumentative and disrespectful person.Maybe you aren't always like this, but I know that all those nasty comments were uncalled for.

Those that know little, usually have doubts.I knew virtually nothing before Goneten helped me out with IB's and information on subwoofers.I never knew terms like 'Pmax', 'Vas' or 'Pe'.I took the time to understand, and I'm better off because of it.Those that object don't fully understand, but if you try to do some research, and read some threads at other sites, you might just come to the realization that its really not that difficult or as difficult as you believed it to be.I'm not saying that its easy to beat hi-end speakers/subwoofers, but with the knowledge that has passed on to me, I'm convinced that I am one step in the right direction.
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post #122 of 292 Old 10-11-2003, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I think we can sum up this debate as follows:
1) there is a group of people that owns high end equipment, probably hasn't owned DIY equipment, and believes that the R&D experience, large development budget, and real engineers results in commercial product far far beyond performance of 99.999% of DIY designs.
2) another group who believes the above hurdles can easily be overcome by self study and advice from the DIY community.

Each reader of this thread can come to his own conclusion.
I belong to group 1 and believe that group 2 has a much less strict definition of high performance, so then is happy with what performance they have achieved and see little material difference with real 'audiophile' subs. Good for them, they have saved lots of money. I have saved lots of time and have incredible performance.

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post #123 of 292 Old 10-11-2003, 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by tzucc
I think we can sum up this debate as follows:
1) there is a group of people that owns high end equipment, probably hasn't owned DIY equipment, and believes that the R&D experience, large development budget, and real engineers results in commercial product far far beyond performance of 99.999% of DIY designs.
2) another group who believes the above hurdles can easily be overcome by self study and advice from the DIY community.

Each reader of this thread can come to his own conclusion.
I belong to group 1 and believe that group 2 has a much less strict definition of high performance, so then is happy with what performance they have achieved and see little material difference with real 'audiophile' subs. Good for them, they have saved lots of money. I have saved lots of time and have incredible performance.
I have never owned a DIY (if I do not count the Dynaco Stereo 70 and PAS 3, I had while in college:o ). Progress in Audio has come from relatively small companies. Who do you think is producing one of the best speakers around? Sony or Wilson? According to your reasoning the best Hi-End gear would come from Sony, etc or !!??Bose???:confused: ) not from Wilson or Magnepan or Thiele or Dynaudio or Alon, etc. The same could be said about Electronics. Who has the largest R&D budget, better facilities and the most engineers? Sony or Krell? Yamaha or Audio Research? , Siemens or Burmester? Through the history of Hi-End progress have come from small companies with dedicated often lone engineers/designers: Quad, Linn-Sondek, Harman Kardon, New York Audio Labs (Julius Futterman of The OTL amplifiers fame), Revox, Nagra, Mac Intosh, Marantz, Magnepan, Infinity, Kharma, Conrad Johnson, Apogee, Martin Logan, EAR, Spectral, Krell, Vandersteen, Aerial... Wilson Audio,etc ...None of these companies was funded with millions of dollars and vast amount of research. They were funded by enthusiasts you can easily call DIYselfers, some of them may not even have been engineers to start with.

The point that you may not want to agree with is that a subwoofer is not that difficult to do if one takes the time to learn and is not constrained by commercial considerations. To build one of the best subwoofers around, Wilson had to build a refrigerator-sized- box with two excellent drivers and ports sized in a way Dave Wilson finds adequate. Is this the best subwoofer one can have for this amount of money? I do not think so. IBs are the ultimate when it comes to subwoofers and the same amount of money will lend you an IB of extraordinary performances and sound quality.

To sum up my position: It is eminently difficult to replicate the performance of Wilson main speakers with a DIY design. Loudspeakers design is the most arcane and intricate area of music reproduction technologies BUT, subwoofers surpassing both in on-paper and Sound Quality performances most commercial offerings are economically achievable with DIY.



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post #124 of 292 Old 10-11-2003, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by FrantzM
I have never owned a DIY (if I do not count the Dynaco Stereo 70 and PAS 3, I had while in college:o ). Progress in Audio has come from relatively small companies. Who do you think is producing one of the best speakers around? Sony or Wilson? According to your reasoning the best Hi-End gear would come from Sony, etc or !!??Bose???:confused: ) not from Wilson or Magnepan or Thiele or Dynaudio or Alon, etc. The same could be said about Electronics. Who has the largest R&D budget, better facilities and the most engineers? Sony or Krell? Yamaha or Audio Research? , Siemens or Burmester? Through the history of Hi-End progress have come from small companies with dedicated often lone engineers/designers: Quad, Linn-Sondek, Harman Kardon, New York Audio Labs (Julius Futterman of The OTL amplifiers fame), Revox, Nagra, Mac Intosh, Marantz, Magnepan, Infinity, Kharma, Conrad Johnson, Apogee, Martin Logan, EAR, Spectral, Krell, Vandersteen, Aerial... Wilson Audio,etc ...None of these companies was funded with millions of dollars and vast amount of research. They were funded by enthusiasts you can easily call DIYselfers, some of them may not even have been engineers to start with.

The point that you may not want to agree with is that a subwoofer is not that difficult to do if one takes the time to learn and is not constrained by commercial considerations. To build one of the best subwoofers around, Wilson had to build a refrigerator-sized- box with two excellent drivers and ports sized in a way Dave Wilson finds adequate. Is this the best subwoofer one can have for this amount of money? I do not think so. IBs are the ultimate when it comes to subwoofers and the same amount of money will lend you an IB of extraordinary performances and sound quality.

To sum up my position: It is eminently difficult to replicate the performance of Wilson main speakers with a DIY design. Loudspeakers design is the most arcane and intricate area of music reproduction technologies BUT, subwoofers surpassing both in on-paper and Sound Quality performances most commercial offerings are economically achievable with DIY.



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I have had this argument with I believe Tzucc before about R&D budgets and the like and that Sony should by far have the best gear out there by that line of reasoning.

Now what is funny about Bose is that they do have incredible R&D with incredible products that they made that have never seen the light of day. I have a good friend who used to get to play with all of the Bose gear that they designed just for the fun of it and they had R&D subs that were nothing short of breathtaking. While we all know what consumer Bose is like, their R&D is quite astonishing but they refuse to take product to market because they cannot make any money off of it. What I do find interesting is that nobody here has ever talked about the Bose Bass Cannon which has an astonishing SPL output. The Bass Cannon is sold through their professional line (no, you won't see it in Bose stores but you can go to the ice cream parlor at MIT and have a listen...). They have a peak output approaching 120 db across its freq. range (25-125 Hz). Just a handful of these are enough to pressurize an entire stadium with bass.

And just as a side note... Nagra is a part of the Kudelski Group which originally started off as the Nagra that makes audio gear. Kudelski has a market cap equivalent to several billion $ on the Swiss Stock Exchange. Nagra's R&D budget and expertise eclipses probably any of the high-end audio manufacturers out there... I can't think of a single company that can bring out their own properietary 20 bit helical scan digital recorder years before anyone else in the market even dreamed of 20 bit recording.
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post #125 of 292 Old 10-11-2003, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Frantz, your argument is flawed. Just because Sony has a much larger R&D budget than WIlson means nothing. It only means Sony chooses to partition that budget to many things, high speaker performance not being one of them. How to make speakers perform acceptably to the middle class while making them smaller or cheaper is likely a higher priority for a mass market CE firm.

Instead Wilson has NO commercial constraints, as purely manifested by the XS, and can focus their R&D budget on optimal performance.

Compared to Wilson, however, 99% of DIY'ers are constrained with respect to material choice, ability to get custom drivers, list goes on and on.

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post #126 of 292 Old 10-11-2003, 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by scooter_29
Now what is funny about Bose is that they do have incredible R&D with incredible products that they made that have never seen the light of day.
Well for one thing in that dept., Bose flopped with the Air Force flight crews and noise cancellation headsets (easily outperformed by their competitors). "Multi-million dollar behind the scenes stuff" - http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html (under Marketing and Bose). ;)
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post #127 of 292 Old 10-11-2003, 05:49 PM
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Nobody is questioning the poor quality of Bose's consumer products. For them, it is all about making money. If you read my post, it points out that their R&D is actually quite superb but they will never market those products because they won't be profitable.
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post #128 of 292 Old 10-11-2003, 06:44 PM
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Agreed! "Audio journalist Tom Nousaine once told me about visiting Bose in Framingham, Massachusetts, meeting Amar Bose and listening to an amazing concert hall architectural simulation software/hardware system they had developed. Very impressive, state-of-the-art technology, according to Tom.

Clearly, the people at Bose have the technology; no one can say they don't. But they use their technology to their advantage, and they make a lot of money doing it." - http://www.perrymarshall.com/marketing/bose.htm - There's also a 9-day e-mail course called "Nine Great Lies of Sales and Marketing".
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post #129 of 292 Old 10-11-2003, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I would also give Bose the benefit of the doubt. They do get nice sound from small packages, and I DO like their noise cancellation headsets. Nobody has come close in my opinion. So I am surprised they elect not to market high end products under an affiliated brand.

My guess is - the diff between Bose and Wilson is Dave Wilson is all about doing it right, charging enough to live well. Bose has no central visionary, hence they are all just about mass market.

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post #130 of 292 Old 10-12-2003, 02:09 AM
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Compared to Wilson, however, 99% of DIY'ers are constrained with respect to material choice, ability to get custom drivers, list goes on and on
May I ask how you can make this generalization? I would think that the key word is 'uncontrained', not contrained.What material choice are you taking about? Custom drivers? Its been demonstrated already that DIY drivers can exceed High-End commercial drivers.No disrespect intended, but don't you think that making generalizations like this is a bit foolish?
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post #131 of 292 Old 10-12-2003, 09:16 AM
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I think what he was trying to say is that I, as a DIYer, would have access to a lot of materials and drivers. Dave Wilson would also have equal access to those same drivers and materials, plus some more he would have access to because he is Dave Wilson of Wilson Audio, i.e. he can likely get his hands on parts I cannot because of his connections in the industry.

Overall, I don't think that the constraints are that great, as his ability to ger materials and drivers is not that much greater than the rest of us. He is, however, able to experiment with a lot of different things as part of his R&D. Most DIYers do not say that they built 15 subs just to get one "right." Sure, the other 14 worked, but not as well. They do it themselves, but the research is from standing on the shoulders of others, benefitting from the reasearch they have done and from their work product and most of their R&D comes from the theoretical and not the actual rebuilding of their subwoofer. Not that there is anything wrong with that, necessarily, but I am suspicious of anybody who claims they can beat a professional like Dave Wilson on the very first try. Heck, I could build a better sub than the Wilson XS, but not on the first shot. It would take me a while, I am certain.

There are some on this forum I am sure who have built several systems, but they are really the minority of the DIYers, not the majority.
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post #132 of 292 Old 10-13-2003, 01:03 AM
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but I am suspicious of anybody who claims they can beat a professional like Dave Wilson on the very first try. Heck, I could build a better sub than the Wilson XS, but not on the first shot. It would take me a while, I am certain.

There are some on this forum I am sure who have built several systems, but they are really the minority of the DIYers, not the majority.
I agree.I don't think that its possible to beat the XS on the first shot.No-one said that they could.It also depends on the individual.Its just that we have such freedom to experiment and to choose what we want for our designs.I've never heard the XS, and I'm sure that it sounds fabulous.IB still sounds like nothing I've ever heard.Pitch definition is just "perfect".I've owned many expensive commercial designs and its freshing to get this quality.Again, thanks Goneten for helping me out and getting the best quality that I possibly heard.:)
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post #133 of 292 Old 10-13-2003, 07:06 AM
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Originally posted by tzucc
Instead Wilson has NO commercial constraints, as purely manifested by the XS, and can focus their R&D budget on optimal performance.

How can he not have commercial constraints? He is into selling speakers isn't he?

I was trying to convey the fact that R&D budget or facilities is not a good indicator of excellence in Hi-Fi design.
Scooter, Nagra is an extraordinary success story, I agree but Kuldeski started Nagra by designing in his house a tape recorder. That is DIY.

My final thoughts on this: I will shoot that last one and put it to rest as far as I am concerned.
Wilson makes wonderful speakers. Most on this thread have repeatedly stated it. Wilson performance is not easily approached by DIY or many other commercial designs for that matter.
Are they the best? I do not think so and I have in several threads pointed other speakers I believe surpass some in their line-up. For the X-1 and X-2 I reserve my opinion, I have not heard the X-2 and I have stated here that I prefer what I heard from the Dynaudio Evidence to what I did from the X-1. A real comparison at that level should be made in the same room with the same electronics and having been burned by the quick decision so prevalent in the Hi-End (after only 5 minutes some decide that system A beats the pants of system B only to, often, sheepishly come back to system B…)
Subwoofer design is the most straightforward area in Speaker design. It is quite straightforward to design and build a subwoofer system surpassing most commercial designs the XS included. How much will this ultimately cost? I would venture 10K maybe a tad less plus a lot of sweat and reading. Excellence is usually not cheap
One should refrain from qualifying anything one has not experienced. Else it is a prejudice. Without auditioning something like the SVS B-4 or the VMPS Subs or many others, I can not asses their SQ
There is a certain amount of snobbery in the Hi-End and because of that products of great merits are ignored because their price does not “fitâ€.
There is also a very low-fi mentality in most HT forum.
It is false to even think that DIY can EASILY outperform the better commercial offerings. One can only smile at this. Anyone who has experienced an assembled a real Hi-End system knows the arduous task of having the system sounds its best even when one has all the gear in place. Then one can understand and appreciate the works, thinking and output of the great Hi-End Audio (or Video) designers: How they reach the optimum balance between the numerous compromises they must make, so as to attain the most realistic output. IN the realm of DIY the thinking is that speaker design is as simple as knowing a few equations or be able to use a PC. Speaker design is beyond most DIY enthusiasts and requires training, knowledge and come to think commercial awareness.

And that is all I am going to say about this

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post #134 of 292 Old 10-13-2003, 07:51 AM
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Of course you could surpass the XS on your first try. Wilson used two of the older Aurasound drivers. Simply order four of the newer honeycomb sandwich cone models. Bump the port size up just a bit, and double the enclosure wall thickness with extensive bracing throughout.

This is the "brute force" method of surpassing the XS. You could, of course, just use two Aurasound drivers and surpass it as well, but the difference in performance between the XS and your creation would be minimal. If built in a single enclosure, you would have to build it into the room... something that was a limitation for Wilson.

Or, you could break it into four separate enclosures, increasing the panel mode frequency for each and resulting in less cabinet coloration than the XS. But wait... isn't that precisely what HealthNut did? ;)

No one said it would be cheap... but it would certainly cost less than the XS. Could you sell them commercially and remain in business? Not a chance I would imagine - at one point HealthNut considered doing that, ask him what he decided. But then, that's the whole point of DIY. You don't have to make a commercially viable product. You don't have to make something that can actually be delivered to a house. IB systems are inherently unmarketable as a stand-alone product... perhaps someone will start offering an IB "design and installation" service, but until that time this is an option simply not available to Wilson or other "commercial" manufacturers.




tzucc, I find your assumption that the DIY community (subs in particular) has a lower standard for "high-end" performance to be quite entertaining. Often, it is the high standard for performance in this area that leads one down the DIY route, as it becomes quite obvious that buying half a dozen commercial offerings and fitting them into a room isn't practical, much less economical.

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post #135 of 292 Old 10-13-2003, 07:00 PM
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As a guy who has owned flagship Velodynes, Mirage, M&K, Citation, and various others, my thoughts are a sub is a sub is a sub is a sub. THe general technology and design hasn't changed appreciably in the last 2 decades. A box, a crossover, a typical driver. They all look and perform similarly after a certain threshold of quality, driver selection and amplification. DIY subs can be very close to store bought ones.

Me...I was always searching, buying, selling and re-selling subs. I could never find one that wouldn't fail on a given portion of a powerhouse soundtrack. My last sub system was 4 Citation 7.4 THX subs all with 14" drivers. I ran 4 in my theater and could never get below 30 hz and would incur strain during intense soundtracks. I used bridged Citation 7.1 amps for each sub. My Velodynes et al always failed, too.

Then, out of the blue, I get a offer to have two guys drive up some new, patented design subs to try in my theater. They said that they are unlike anything available and would give output, depth, etc., etc.. I agreed. Well, 4 mos later, there are no equals as none are designed similarly. Typical box subs can't compete because they are built to an older standard.

The wheel was re-invented. I can play any soundtrack at any level and get tight, powerful bass to well below 20 hz at any output level. Hell, I had to raise my LCR's 80 hz crossover to 92 hz so they wouldn't strain at high output levels. At frequency crossovers under 92 hz, my LCRs were failing before the subs would and we were measuring down to 16 hz with a TEF analyzer at unbelievably high SPLs. It was the first time I had ever heard high quality, high output LCRs fail before the sub gave in!!! Titan Ae and U-571 were doing them in..but the subs didn't hiccup once, were tight and seemingly wanted to be further pushed......

Bottom line, DIY designs follow the age old design of a good driver, box and crossover. That is good 'til a point. But technology moves on and other ideas yield better results.

It reminds me of LD, I bought my CLD-99 LD 10 years ago. It was the pinnacle of LD perfection, besting the CLD-97 and adding a Rf output for DD. It was LD's holy grail. Well, here is the rest of the story, I bought this $2400 LD for $1200 on close out. Like any other technology, when the pinnacle is reached, that is when a newer, better technology (DVD) is on it's way.

Sub designs finally need to be changed. Box designs are fatally flawed given today's powerhouse, dynamic soundtracks. New designs are here. The DIY model are always based on old technology and designs. They typically perform as such, too. Companies that spend on R&D and put out the cutting edge products will garner the best performance until others copy and try and replicate. DIY designs can only copy old design. They can be great but not cutting edge excellent!!

Those that think that they can get cutting edge performance (or such) on a DIY budget are thinking with their wallets, not there heads. You can't build new technology, You can only copy old.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #136 of 292 Old 10-13-2003, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Jeff, whose subs are these that you are so happy with?

Have you tried the Wilson Watchdogs... my HT designer was checking out my finished room acoustics, and he plugs in his test DVD with low freq rumble, and he jacked up the input signal on the Watchdogs. My ears were positively stuffed with slow moving high amplitude pressure waves. I shudder to think about this test with an XS. The woofer drivers were moving so far I thought they would shoot out of the enclosure like cannonballs.

Anyway, I am very interested to know which subs you think perform so well.

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post #137 of 292 Old 10-13-2003, 10:11 PM
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uuhhh..Jeff...the guys who create the new come from the DIY crew. Always have..always will. So, generally, yes, you are exactly right, but there is the added conditional that the innovation comes from these guys. Almost to a man, the great designers of speakers started doing so in their garage, basement, whatever.

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post #138 of 292 Old 10-13-2003, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
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well, some may have started building prototypes themselves, but so what? The point is good product comes from years of experimentation. Look at WIlson's product line... and how it has migrated over the years to what it is today. You don't get there in one year by reading speaker cookbooks, glue and plywood.

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post #139 of 292 Old 10-14-2003, 12:57 AM
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Compared to Wilson, however, 99% of DIY'ers are constrained with respect to material choice, ability to get custom drivers, list goes on and on.
Coming from someone that has no experience in building subwoofers, and hasn't heard a single DIY subwoofer!:rolleyes:

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The point is good product comes from years of experimentation.
Nonsense.If it takes years for a product to become 'good', then I really have to question the ability of the individual.

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You don't get there in one year by reading speaker cookbooks, glue and plywood.
No.You DO get their by reading speaker "cookbooks", researching and learning from experienced people.You aren't in any position to explain what it takes and what it doesn't take.You haven't even heard a single DIY subwoofer, nor do you have any experience to make these comments.You have made assumptions on other members DIY subwoofers without hearing them, which is absolute disrespect.No-one is talking about Wilsons speakers.We are talking about subwoofers.I am a DIY'er, but I'm more of a novice.I have owned the Velodyne HGS18 and the M&K 5000.I researched, and learned alot from some members here(Goneten, Tom Vonhanel, Dustin B), and members on HTF.They helped me out tremendously, and within 3-4 months when I was confident enough, I started building.My tempest DIY subwoofer is MUCH better than both of my commercial subwoofers.They sound more accurate, and they play much louder without strain.On dynamic passages, both commercial subwoofers would strain and bottom out at high volumes.Musically, I'm very happy with my DIY subwoofer and I still get goosebumps when I listen to my music.And it was not difficult to built my subwoofer.It would have been difficult, I had not been learning about asking questions.However, I did research and I did learn from very knowledgeable individuals.Learning and increased experience were the two biggest reasons for my success.

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It is false to even think that DIY can EASILY outperform the better commercial offerings.
Why? I am proof that it is completely true.Why do a select few always think that they know what it takes or what it doesn't take to outperform commercial offerings, especially when they are not qualified to make such comments? It gets very frustrating when you make assumptions based on zero experience.Its true that DIY subwoofers can outperform the better commercial offerings at a much lower cost.This can be done easily.Easy is a relative term.It might be hard for you, but its not hard for others.Its certainly easy for others that have taken the time to learn.You keep forgetting that DIY'ers have time on their hands.That time can be taken to expand on their designs and improve the quality.I'm not saying that beating the Wilson XS is easy, or anything at that price.What I will say is that it is easy for those that have alot of experience and expertise in this field.There are those here that have many years of experience and expertise, and have been building subwoofers for a very long time.It might come to you as a shock, but its time for you guys to face reality.The only people making assumptions here are those that have no understanding, or experience in these areas.I can say that its definitely false for you to comment on DIY without any experience.
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post #140 of 292 Old 10-14-2003, 04:52 AM
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Ed,

It sounds like you are quite a motivated builder. New to this thread, I notice that most who speak are very generous to what is in their own rooms. No problem..that is human nature. (include me, too).

I am sure your subs are amazing. But also amazing to readers here is that you are completely biased to your creations. You built them with your own hands, you put forth your own time, effort and money and from what you are telling us, they are the best you ever heard. C'Mon, if they weren't so great would you make equally grandiose statements about your failure??/ I doubt it.

I think my newly built home is very beautiful, other's may say, 'I've seen much better'!! Beauty (and bias) is in the eye of the beholder. Do you see what I am getting at?

Bias has come into the mix and that is why this thread is 5 pages long. You are biased because you built, sweated and toiled in your design. Of course it is better (to you) than the top sub manufacturer's flagship models!! To your ears, it has to be.

Bias is a funny thing. Ideally we try and sell our widgets without injecting bias into the pitch, but invariably when emotion is tied into it, it not no subtely intertwines its way through the pitch and colors all that is said. However, it just as cooley colors other's perceptions of you and your motives of what you espouse.

You would improve your own creedance with some analysis, data, and some third party listeners to conduct such. and conducted. Just saying 'my design is better than Velodyne's HGS-18 and M & K's MX-5000' and that you did it as a novice speaker builder in a short period of time is ludicrous to listen to. You credit your learning curve (foundation) to three people (no offense guys), not concrete design philosophy - just opinion and hear say. Moreover, your claim to have trounced those experienced, research oriented, well thought of sub companies sounds a little thin to me. Somewhat arrogant, too.

Perhaps you did! Perhaps you didn't. In the absence of any data, your word alone shouldn't convince any thinking soul that they are 'the best'!....just that YOU think so..

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #141 of 292 Old 10-14-2003, 07:00 AM
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Originally posted by thebland
The wheel was re-invented.
Horn loaded designs are fairly old.

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Bottom line, DIY designs follow the age old design of a good driver, box and crossover. That is good 'til a point. But technology moves on and other ideas yield better results...

The DIY model are always based on old technology and designs. They typically perform as such, too... They can be great but not cutting edge excellent!!

Those that think that they can get cutting edge performance (or such) on a DIY budget are thinking with their wallets, not there heads. You can't build new technology, You can only copy old.
Absolute poppycock. IB designs are a favorite of many DIY'ers, and are obviously lacking in one of your generalized DIY ingredients... the box. Show me a commercial IB subwoofer. Until that point, I feel that commercial subs are lagging what is possible in the DIY arena.

There have also been DIY horn designs that would blow away your B-DEAP subs. I have no doubt that your subs are exceptional. I'd love to have one or two of them. But you've fallen into the very trap you preached about just above regarding being biased to what you own, and dismissing all other possibilities.

You have to remember that DIY spans a very large spectrum... from yahoos throwing Pioneer 6x9's into shoeboxes, through the average guy making a nice sounding sub with a Tempest driver and some plywood, to the guys that have the background, knowledge, and time invested to push the edge of performance.

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post #142 of 292 Old 10-14-2003, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Jeff, which subs do you refer to above in your post? I am interested in what you find to be that good.

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post #143 of 292 Old 10-14-2003, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I actually believe a DIYer with good carpentry skills, some mechanical engineering know how and decent knowledge of speaker drivers can beat Velodyne and MK5000, both of which I have heard and rejected outright as very poor relative to Wilson Watchdog.

This thread is clearly about bias, since no one has produced any data on either side. However, to 99% of casual observers, it will be obvious as to which side of the argument benefit of the doubt will go.

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post #144 of 292 Old 10-14-2003, 08:06 AM
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They are the ServoDrive B-DEAP-32s. Passive. Driven by Crown amps.

For fun, after set up we played the sub blast scene from U-571 at reference with the LFE signal boosted 12 db over reference (did so via my QSC-DSP 4 digital EQ). It was amazing. Mark Seaton (& Chris Collins) were the guys behind set up!!

The subs have a rated sensitivity of 106 db and we measured flat to under 16 hz with useable bass to 11 hz. (yes we have analysis documentation to show it).

My room is 32 X 17 X 9.5 (professionally designed and calibrated).

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #145 of 292 Old 10-14-2003, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I went to the servodrive page looking at these subs. Perhaps I have wrong info, but I recall the spec being 32Hz and on up for the freq response. I'll go look again.

I have U571 on Dtheatre... good sound AND video indeed.

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post #146 of 292 Old 10-14-2003, 09:39 AM
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IT is spec.'d to 32 hz. Apparently, there will be a new spec. per Mark at Servodrive.

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...n&pagenumber=4

Here is a TEF machine and analysis of the subs' response in my room. There are other graphs in the long thread (Not the final room analysis).

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #147 of 292 Old 10-14-2003, 10:10 AM
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I agree with Bigus.
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post #148 of 292 Old 10-14-2003, 10:12 AM
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Those that think that they can get cutting edge performance (or such) on a DIY budget are thinking with their wallets, not there heads.
Actually, its the other way around.I don't think you know the aspects that are involved in DIY design.I use my head to get better performance for less.This is exactly the reason why I chose to leave my Velo HGS18 and M&K 5000 behind.My Velo HGS 18" II cost $3k and the M&K cost over $2k.My Tempest subwoofer outperforms both combined for around $400.Its based on the Adire alignment.I've already measured the output of both commercial subwoofers, and they fall short of my new DIY Tempest, and the sound quality is amazing.I am living proof that my DIY design can beat more than $5k worth of subwoofers for exactly $400! Before I built my subwoofer, I considered the Velo and M&K to be brilliant subwoofers.I took a risk, and I eventually posted here and at HTF, and at the DIY section, and they told me that performance is potentially unlimited with certain DIY designs.I never chose those designs, because they are more difficult to build.So I chose an Adire aligment design.These members have many years of experience and expertise under their belts, and they are experts within their fields.I will never buy another expensive commercial subwoofer for as long as I live.

To the Bland.I say that my DIY subwoofer is better, because it IS better.I'm going to sell both commercial subwoofers.If that is not testament to my DIY subwoofer, then I don't know what is.

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Sub designs finally need to be changed. Box designs are fatally flawed given today's powerhouse, dynamic soundtracks. New designs are here. The DIY model are always based on old technology and designs. They typically perform as such, too.
May I ask what DIY subwoofers you have heard? I take it that you have never built subwoofers yourself? If you have, how many DIY subwoofers have you heard in order to make the statement that they perform like old technology.Box designs may be flawed, but so are everything else.I've read about your Contrabass.But even the Contrabass has flaws.Nothing is perfect.I've heard of the Contrabass, and it probably sounds fantastic.BTW, how much does the Contrabass retail for? I don't quite understand what you saying.DIY is the opposite of limited.My cheap design betters two very expensive commercial designs.I've been told that not even duel HGS units can match mine in volume!Thats more than $5k of woofage.

http://www.geocities.com/manurescape/highres1.jpg

There is a subwoofer that I recently read about on the internet that will put all these silly assumptions from some members here to rest.Its a duel tempest in an EBS alignment and in a massive 679 liter enclosure.Its 60" high, has two 8" ports(each 31" long) and is tuned to 15hz.DIY allows you to make very few compromises.It weights almost 500 pounds.Its called "The Big Big" and its built by James from Home Theater Forum.James has measured 126db down to 16hz! I highly doubt that a single Contrabass can come anywhere near this level of performance.So dynamic soundtracks will never be a problem.I'm sure that the Contrabass is a potent performer, but its still limited compared to the better DIY designs.I'm sure that there are many other DIY subwoofers that will exceed the sound quality or output of the Contrabass.I don't quite understand how the motor of the Contrabass works, but there is still a motor.This motor might deteriorate over time and performance might get worse.Thats not mean't to be a put down comment, but I'm just trying to explain that everything has flaws.This is why I believe the knowledgeable members that frequent this board that say that the DIY route is the only way to achieve unlimited performance.Now I hear about an IB, and they can sound better than anything else.Gosh, when will it end!:D

This "Big Big" is one example of unrestricted performance for DIY box designs.The real shocker, is that it cost $700total! And you can build even better sounding and greater output subwoofers than this!
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post #149 of 292 Old 10-14-2003, 10:18 AM
 
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My, my Edward........how you are sounding more and more like goneten with each post. I am impressed. Even the length of each post equals that of goneten.
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post #150 of 292 Old 10-14-2003, 10:24 AM
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I've read alot of your posts.Most of them are just arguments that you make.I see that you and Goneten have argued many times, but you seem to start them each time.I'm hoping that Goneten will post so that I can get some advice from him.Is there something wrong with the length of my post? I don't think that its that long.
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