SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS | Review & Discussions - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 254 Old 04-28-2019, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyWilkinson View Post
I had assumed that it's 2 lamps in total - 1 per projector, rather than 4? Is that right?
Sorry, yes its 2 lamps total. I understood it wrong.

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post #62 of 254 Old 04-28-2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gwthacker View Post
Nigel what about a stack of 5000s? Curious as to your thoughts. Thanks


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I'm not Nigel but I'm going to chime in the ANSI and sequential contrast of the Duo is superior to my stack. Even without seeing the Duo this is great big not only in the measured magnitude from a theoretical but in the overall performance. My stack does have some advantages which would relate to things like laser life ,calibration stability , close seating opportunity as far as visible pixel structure and light output but one would have to decide if those matter.

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post #63 of 254 Old 04-28-2019, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post

Regarding contrast and black levels it is the range 0% - 2% ADL in particular wherein you will most notice the difference between the Christie and the SIM2. Where it is within the range 0% - 1% that the SIM2 shows its limited ON/OFF which is why INTERSTELLAR 00:53:30 (= 0.18% ADL) scored 80 whereas the Christie nails a perfect 100 score. But this is hardly surprising given we are talking ON/OFF contrast measurments of 28,600:1 versus 21.2 MILLION:1 ! So with the Christie you get OLED performance down to 4 pixels, but you don't with the SIM2... BUT the SIM2's contrast performance from 0.8% upwards beats pretty much every other projector in existence. So that's not to take away from the SIM2. Remember it's like we are comparing a Lamborghini Aventador with a Bugatti Divo here
You left out a zero, Interstellar is actually 0.018%!

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post #64 of 254 Old 04-28-2019, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
You left out a zero, Interstellar is actually 0.018%!
Is this the TC for the star scene with the craft going out the upper right? If so, then with the native panel black level of the JVCs and the 885/760 being around 0.005 or so shouldn't that do it or is the actual floor in that scene quite a bit less than 0.005 and thus the ADL is there but the floor isn't? Thanks.
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post #65 of 254 Old 04-28-2019, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jqmn View Post
Is this the TC for the star scene with the craft going out the upper right? If so, then with the native panel black level of the JVCs and the 885/760 being around 0.005 or so shouldn't that do it or is the actual floor in that scene quite a bit less than 0.005 and thus the ADL is there but the floor isn't? Thanks.
Whats TC?

JVC and Sony do not have the same black floor depending which model you look at, in fact none of them would. Especially if you use any form of Dynamic contrast.

ADL is not the same as nits. ADL is average display luminance. 100% being full white. In the same sense than a 50% ADL ANSI contrast pattern may have different results across all displays, this 0.018% ADL shot will have very different results depending on the display being used.

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post #66 of 254 Old 04-28-2019, 06:34 PM
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Very interesting review. I assume the contrast numbers are accurate. I am very surprised to see the contrast inferiority of the JVC Vs the Sony. Many tout the JVCs are the ultimate for contrast but this chart shows that the Sony 995 is superior!
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post #67 of 254 Old 04-28-2019, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
You left out a zero, Interstellar is actually 0.018%!
Are you sure? You posted previously that it was 0.18%... So was that a typo previously then?

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Whats TC?

JVC and Sony do not have the same black floor depending which model you look at, in fact none of them would. Especially if you use any form of Dynamic contrast.

ADL is not the same as nits. ADL is average display luminance. 100% being full white. In the same sense than a 50% ADL ANSI contrast pattern may have different results across all displays, this 0.018% ADL shot will have very different results depending on the display being used.
By the way, UNBELIEVABLE coincidence you guys are just discussing Interstellar 00:53:30 and comparative performance! Just wait to see my next post...

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post #68 of 254 Old 04-28-2019, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Very interesting review. I assume the contrast numbers are accurate. I am very surprised to see the contrast inferiority of the JVC Vs the Sony. Many tout the JVCs are the ultimate for contrast but this chart shows that the Sony 995 is superior!
Yes and no

Couple of things here... Firstly, that's that is HDR performance specifically, meaning that the JVC is operating at minimum contrast because the lamp iris is set to 0 (= wide open)

Hence, this only tells us half of the story, in that when comparing the JVC versus SONY we really need to also taken into account the SDR performance as well, wherein I will be shortly posting these performance figures as well.

Secondly, the range that is by far the most important wherein over 90% of video content resides is 0 - 20% ADL so pretty much discount the range 20% - 50% ADL.

Thirdly, the cross-over point for the JVC vs SONY is 1.5% ADL. Wherein, with content that is over 1.5% ADL the SONY does indeed outperform the JVC. However, there's an awful lot of content that resides within the range 0 - 1.5% ADL; and within this range the JVC massively outperforms the SONY. Illustrative case in point coming up next in my comparison thread here: The 2019 Model SONY vs JVC Projectors Comparison Thread

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post #69 of 254 Old 04-28-2019, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Are you sure? You posted previously that it was 0.18%... So was that a typo previously then?





By the way, UNBELIEVABLE coincidence you guys are just discussing Interstellar 00:53:30 and comparative performance! Just wait to see my next post...



Typo I calculated it again and checked. I may have made a type somewhere but I've always known it was 0.018%

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post #70 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 01:53 AM
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I wish SIM would focus on a 4K 3 chip DLP with dual modulation technology and LED/Laser light source.
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post #71 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
COMPARISONS VERSUS OTHER PROJECTORS




Congrats on finally getting this review across the line Nigel, certainly looks like a lot of work involved there.

Its low ADL performance is certainly impressive - though as we spoke about some 6 months ago, I do wonder how well Sim2 are going to sell a pair of 1080p lamp based projectors in a 4K laser world, even given that superior low ADL performance. It'd be a tough sell even at $9k, let alone $99k, due purely to market perceptions.

Have you measured the Z1/RS4500 you have, with those low ADL patterns? It would be interesting to see its Mode 2 dynamic performance plotted on that graph too.
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post #72 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 02:44 AM
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@ARROW-AV
Thank you for that very interesting review of the Sim2 HDR DUO Plus stack. It looks like quite a big improvement over a Nero 4 stack (which I have seen many times).
Have you got also some contrast figures of the Nero4 stack that you could give for comparison sake ?
What is the black floor of the HDR Duo Plus stack (in Nits, absolute number) and the max. brightness in Nits that you actually got in your setup ?
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Have you measured the Z1/RS4500 you have, with those low ADL patterns? It would be interesting to see its Mode 2 dynamic performance plotted on that graph too.
This is already on my TO DO list

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post #74 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 03:09 AM - Thread Starter
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@ARROW-AV
Thank you for that very interesting review of the Sim2 HDR DUO Plus stack. It looks like quite a big improvement over a Nero 4 stack (which I have seen many times).
Have you got also some contrast figures of the Nero4 stack that you could give for comparison sake?
I had NERO 4 on loan for a month. Being completely honest, it has rainbows and terrible contrast and black levels performance with lower ADL content. The dual NERO 4 stack is not in the same league as the HDR DUO PLUS and in more ways than one.

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@ARROW-AV What is the black floor of the HDR Duo Plus stack (in Nits, absolute number) and the max. brightness in Nits that you actually got in your setup ?
WITH WHITE LEVEL = 258 NITS, BLACK LEVEL = 0.009 NITS

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post #75 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 03:15 AM
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As someone who dislikes every significant DI / DD system he's seen so far, I'd love to see how the dynamic aspect on this works in person; though it would be more of an indulgence than anything else as likelihood of me being in a position to entertain buying something like this is slim.

Does it actually have any moving mechanical irises? Or is it all achieved by lamp dimming of the brighter unit? If the latter I can see some significant benefits are possible by not having to consider the dim pixels as the lamp dims (if they're already just being displayed by the dim projector).

How much control do you get of the peak brightness while still retaining dynamic contrast for SDR, for example? How does that work? As the overall peak luminance drops to SDR levels would both projectors still see much use?

If the bright projector and the dim projector lamps end up burning different amount of lamp hours (guessing) - how do you maintain calibration between the two projectors? Is there some kind of mechanism for this?

Very interesting tech that raises many questions.
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post #76 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 04:23 AM
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Stop over sometime this summer, Alan Gouger is the calendar keeper! Steve Bruzonsky agrees!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwthacker View Post
Nigel what about a stack of 5000s? Curious as to your thoughts. Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I'm not Nigel but I'm going to chime in the ANSI and sequential contrast of the Duo is superior to my stack. Even without seeing the Duo this is great big not only in the measured magnitude from a theoretical but in the overall performance. My stack does have some advantages which would relate to things like laser life ,calibration stability , close seating opportunity as far as visible pixel structure and light output but one would have to decide if those matter.

Art

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post #77 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 04:43 AM
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TC is Time Code and I see from Nigel's posts that it is the space scene I was thinking of.


I understand that the shot will look different depending on the display. I was reading you to say that the average luminance for the shot was 0.018% based on your wave form work and then each projector will show a different "look" from there based on its capability and how it is set up.

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Whats TC?
JVC and Sony do not have the same black floor depending which model you look at, in fact none of them would. Especially if you use any form of Dynamic contrast.

ADL is not the same as nits. ADL is average display luminance. 100% being full white. In the same sense than a 50% ADL ANSI contrast pattern may have different results across all displays, this 0.018% ADL shot will have very different results depending on the display being used.
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post #78 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 04:48 AM
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TC is Time Code and I see from Nigel's posts that it is the space scene I was thinking of.


I understand that the shot will look different depending on the display. I was reading you to say that the average luminance for the shot was 0.018% based on your wave form work and then each projector will show a different "look" from there based on its capability and how it is set up.
Yep that's correct.

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post #79 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 04:52 AM
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Maybe this is an explanation of why people say they like the "look" of Sony color and others say they hate the black levels? This would tell me that the midtones come out pretty darn good in a comparison. Some people react to midtones and accept the black levels because they aren't expecting them to be as low as they should...they grew up with poorly adjusted crts (crushed blacks), lcds (grey blacks) and cinemas (poor light control and very poor black levels).

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Yes and no

Couple of things here... Firstly, that's that is HDR performance specifically, meaning that the JVC is operating at minimum contrast because the lamp iris is set to 0 (= wide open)

Hence, this only tells us half of the story, in that when comparing the JVC versus SONY we really need to also taken into account the SDR performance as well, wherein I will be shortly posting these performance figures as well.

Secondly, the range that is by far the most important wherein over 90% of video content resides is 0 - 20% ADL so pretty much discount the range 20% - 50% ADL.

Thirdly, the cross-over point for the JVC vs SONY is 1.5% ADL. Wherein, with content that is over 1.5% ADL the SONY does indeed outperform the JVC. However, there's an awful lot of content that resides within the range 0 - 1.5% ADL; and within this range the JVC massively outperforms the SONY. Illustrative case in point coming up next in my comparison thread here: The 2019 Model SONY vs JVC Projectors Comparison Thread

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post #80 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 04:55 AM
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Thanks. Then I go to if you are able what does it say the blacks areas (stripped out stars, vehicle, and star "shined light") are nit wise-- 0.0002 or so or actually 0.0?

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Yep that's correct.
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post #81 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 05:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Stop over sometime this summer, Alan Gouger is the calendar keeper! Steve Bruzonsky agrees!!
Hold the phone, well if it isn't Mr Burnstein

In case folks haven't connected the dots in Mark's post, like @Lasalle and I did, Mark similarly fell in love with the performance of the HDR DUO PLUS, so much so that he's had one installed into his home theater.

How are you finding the projector Mark?

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post #82 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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people say they DON'T like the "look" of Sony color and others say they hate the black levels
I just fixed that for you

Hey @Lasalle , am I right or am I right?

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post #83 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 07:16 AM
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I just fixed that for you

Hey @Lasalle , am I right or am I right?

I would not limit my comments to Sony, I don't like the color balance of any BP lasers I've seen.
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post #84 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post

WITH WHITE LEVEL = 258 NITS, BLACK LEVEL = 0.009 NITS

Thanks for these numbers. Obviously they refer to the dynamic contrast value of about 1:28'600. Native contrast is 1:6247. With an open iris then the black floor would be then about 0.041 Nits.

The reason why I was asking: As a VW760 owner I was wondering how blacks of that SIM2 HDR DUO Plus might look compared to my setup. I measured 2 weeks ago its black floor and white level and got 0.009 Nits and 186 Nits, respectively. This is for laser 80 output that I am using for HDR. This is of course without any dynamic dimming resulting in a native contrast of about 1: 20.6 K then. My Vw760 has now about 1550 h on its timer.

Coming back to the Sim2 HDR DUO Plus Stack:
For me a black floor of 0.009 Nits is very acceptable. Of course not absolutely perfect and not on OLED level for sure but still very acceptable. Coupled with 258 Nits max and resulting then in the documented contrast performance I understand that this SIM2 HDR DUO PLUs stack is certainly highly impressive. I hope to see one quite soon. My local Swiss distributor told me that he wants to organize one.

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post #85 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 07:38 AM
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Stop over sometime this summer, Alan Gouger is the calendar keeper! Steve Bruzonsky agrees!!
You were good till the last statement.

Mark,
Frankly ,this just isn't where I'm going to go ,too many years at 1080 to go back with my seating preferences and a 16' wide screen, but I do appreciate the offer.

Art

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On the topic of stacking, I wonder how the SIM2 would compare to stacked Sony 5000s(which are 4K). Would be similar pricing and seems like most logical competitor. The Christie (if it ever comes out) will be in a totally different price point.


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I doubt a single person in a blind test would pick the stacked 5000's.
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Well alrighty then...haven't seen anyone claim they didn't like Sony colors...have seen people say that calibrated red is calibrated red so how could Sony be different than JVC if properly calibrated...



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I just fixed that for you

Hey @Lasalle , am I right or am I right?

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post #88 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 05:39 PM
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Fantastic review Arrow! It was a more exciting read than any murder mystery novel I've ever read lol!

I would LOVE to see this projector(s) some day. It sounds like it is very special.

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post #89 of 254 Old 04-29-2019, 06:54 PM
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I just fixed that for you

Hey @Lasalle , am I right or am I right?

Nigel,
I read the review once again - I did have the privilege to audition the DUO in Cedia 2016 with the lead Italian engineer at Sim2. We walked up to the JVC booth and watched the RS4500 Demo and then the Sony VW 5000.
We both agreed that the JVC was a better picture than the 5000 (and now I Own the 5000 go figure!!).
I will tell you this - my Sim2 Lumis host gave the most film like picture of any projector I have ever owned.
But reading your review I realized that the DUO you reviewed is a whole different animal than what I auditioned at CEDIA.
You throw Alan in the mix and that's what you get 'Perfection'.
Question - I used to own a Sim2 Lumis Host with a T3 lens (my throw is 26 feet) - since I was at the extremity of the T3 lens zoom output - I was told that I was at the sweet spot to get the highest brightness due to my throw distance.
I am sure that applies to the DUO also - getting more light output depending on the throw distance and where it sits in the zoom of the T3 lens!!
Would love your comments and if true maybe you can convince Brad to move the projector (just kidding).
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post #90 of 254 Old 04-30-2019, 01:11 AM
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Stop over sometime this summer, Alan Gouger is the calendar keeper! Steve Bruzonsky agrees!!
I agree???

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!
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