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post #91 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 02:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jqmn View Post
Well alrighty then...haven't seen anyone claim they didn't like Sony colors...have seen people say that calibrated red is calibrated red so how could Sony be different than JVC if properly calibrated...
Sorry, but this is not good color performance:



The SONYs, when accurately calibrated, are not capable of reaching more than 80% - 90% of DCI-P3 within BT.2020 without without usage of a BT.2020 color filter and the color filter in the SONY 5000ES knocks out circa 40-45% of light output so you can't use it, wherein it covers only circa 85% of DCI-P3 at best. And none of the new SONY projectors, such as the 995/870ES and the 885/760ES have any BT.2020 color filters at all, so they are hamstrung in this regard.

It does not matter how well you calibrate a projector, if you don't have the gamut coverage, you don't have the gamut coverage. Meaning you can't calibrate the full range of color properly and cannot achieve reference color. End of story. I mean seriously, come on think about it, how are you going to accurately calibrate 100% saturation points if you don't have 100% gamut coverage? In short, you can't. Consequently, you cannot achieve reference color with HDR with any of these Sony projectors, however well you calibrate them. Like I said, if you don't have the gamut coverage you don't have the gamut coverage, and this is where SONY projectors currently fall short.

Whereas, the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS surpasses any and all SONY projectors by a mile by achieving up to 107% coverage of DCI-P3 and circa 85% of BT.2020, which I estimate is about 25%-30% more coverage of BT.2020 than the SONYs.

And I hate to say it, but that's not all... SONY projectors typically can't process 10-Bit color properly, which is what causes the manifestation of posterization/banding for which they are renown. Sure you can use Smooth Gradiation video processing to help eliminate the banding but doing so that softens the image and doesn't help the suboptimal color performance.

Seriously anyone who thinks a SONY projector has good color, has never seen good color. End of story. Greens, Reds, and Cyan performance in particular is poor.

Just to be clear, the ultimate target and reference standard for color is 100% coverage of BT.2020, which can already be achieved via full RGB laser projection. The milestone of 100% coverage of DCI-P3 within BT.2020 color gamut has already been surpassed, so all eyes should now be on the 100% of BT.2020 target. Whereas SONY is still struggling but failing to achieve 100% of DCI-P3.

So do SONY projectors have good color? Nope. Color performance ranks MEDIOCRE.

Don't get me wrong, I love SONY. All my TVs are SONY. I personally owned a SONY 1100ES projector for 5 years, and currently personally own a SONY 995/870ES. But I won't ignore their flaws. And it cannot be said that as of right now SONY projectors all offer good color performance. Sorry, but 85% - 90% coverage of DCI-P3 with projectors costing up to $70,000+ is not good enough. Sorry, but it just isn't! So it would be great to see SONY step up their game with their 2020 new projector model releases announced later this year in this regard and improve the gamut coverage of the projectors.

I really hope some of the folks who frequent this forum get to see the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS sometime. Just wait until you see the color performance of this thing. Seriously the difference in color peformance as compared with the Sony projectors is night and day.

In fact, methinks that a shootout versus a SONY 5000ES is in order


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post #92 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 04:32 AM
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So it would be great to see SONY step up their game with their 2020 new projector model releases announced later this year in this regard and improve the gamut coverage of the projectors.

I really hope some of the folks who frequent this forum get to see the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS sometime. Just wait until you see the color performance of this thing. Seriously the difference in color peformance as compared with the Sony projectors is night and day.

In fact, methinks that a shootout versus a SONY 5000ES is in order

Sony have had the prosumer native 4K marketplace to themselves for too long. Now all this great competition is here from all quarters, I hope they do what they did in the past and bring out some mightily impressive models later this year that really bring the fight back to the others.

They need to step up their game and earn the respect they once had, instead of merely trading off of old perceptions of their quality that they seem to be using.

I know they don't want their projectors to seem downmarket in any way, but if they priced them more realistically in the first place then it would be a different conversation even now.

Looking forward to seeing these things in action whenever the opportunity arises.
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post #93 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 04:50 AM
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I would not limit my comments to Sony, I don't like the color balance of any BP lasers I've seen.
Which is interesting, because I find the colours that are put on screen by laser projectors just look more natural and saturated.
We are each our own animals of course.

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post #94 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 05:38 AM
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Which is interesting, because I find the colors that are put on screen by laser projectors just look more natural and saturated.
We are each our own animals of course.
I probably should have clarified what my reference was. Aside from OLED TV, my projector reference for saturated color was several of the Barco D Cinema projectors that exceeded P3. Aside from the Duo I have not critically viewed any of the bulb based HT projectors. My issue is with the Blue lasers (BP), I've watched a couple of RGB laser projectors (Barco, the initial Christie proto-type and the Cinemeccanica) and they have very good color. That said my projector reference was still Alan's HC modified Barco Prometheus for rich color saturation.

There is a whole technical discussion on the issues associated with narrow bandwidth Blue lasers fired through yellow phosphor and filters achieving balanced color that I would rather not debate. This, of course, is just my opinion, but it is shared by several experts with decades in the industry (who I won't drag into a debate on this topic).
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post #95 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony have had the prosumer native 4K marketplace to themselves for too long. Now all this great competition is here from all quarters, I hope they do what they did in the past and bring out some mightily impressive models later this year that really bring the fight back to the others.

They need to step up their game and earn the respect they once had, instead of merely trading off of old perceptions of their quality that they seem to be using.

I know they don't want their projectors to seem downmarket in any way, but if they priced them more realistically in the first place then it would be a different conversation even now.

Looking forward to seeing these things in action whenever the opportunity arises.
When SONY launched the 1000ES/1100ES it was game-changing and without a doubt the best home theater projector at the time. Loved that projector! In fact, it is still in certain ways SONY's best performing projector, such as with respect to contrast performance (SXRD panel degradation aside), wherein it's peak ON/OFF contrast (when new) measured over 300,000:1. Good luck trying to measure over 300,000:1 contrast performance with any other SONY projector today!

I would love to see SONY release a new projector that really pushes boundaries again, as they did with the 1000/1100ES

Seriously, SONY should release a new flagship 4K laser projector that's full RGB laser, 10,000 lumens, and measures over 300,000:1 ON/OFF contrast. Even priced at $99K it'd sell like hot cakes

RGB laser modules have evolved and have recently got A LOT less expensive. BARCO has just released a new range of RGB laser projectors with prices starting around $50,000. The ON/OFF contrast is still extremely poor but this is evidence that RGB laser is now economically viable for manufacturers to implement into Home Theater projectors. Someone, anyone, PLEASE DO THIS!!!

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post #96 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 06:01 AM
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When SONY launched the 1000ES/1100ES it was game-changing and without a doubt the best home theater projector at the time. Loved that projector! In fact, it is still in certain ways SONY's best performing projector, such as with respect to contrast performance (SXRD panel degradation aside), wherein it's peak ON/OFF contrast (when new) measured over 300,000:1. Good luck trying to measure over 300,000:1 contrast performance with any other SONY projector today!
That was indeed the last 'built' projector they made.

If one could fit new panels, up-to-date HDMI and processing and a laser engine in one, it would be pretty damn cool.

It even still had a motorised lens cover. A feature I really miss in my VW90ES.

Their move to prioritising the bottom line has come at the expense of innovation and true worth in my eyes. Their stuff always was more expensive, because it was BETTER. They are still trading off that perception now even though it is no longer the case.

They need to start making products people hanker after again, something that would make you sell your mothers kidney to buy..., which is what I thought the 870 would be, not the value inflated 'white elephant' it has been.

I would have one now, for all its foibles, if they had priced it at the level of the 760 (had that itself been priced at a more sensible 10k).
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post #97 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 06:05 AM
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I probably should have clarified what my reference was. Aside from OLED TV, my projector reference for saturated color was several of the Barco D Cinema projectors that exceeded P3. Aside from the Duo I have not critically viewed any of the bulb based HT projectors. My issue is with the Blue lasers (BP), I've watched a couple of RGB laser projectors (Barco, the initial Christie proto-type and the Cinemeccanica) and they have very good color. That said my projector reference was still Alan's HC modified Barco Prometheus for rich color saturation.

There is a whole technical discussion on the issues associated with narrow bandwidth Blue lasers fired through yellow phosphor and filters achieving balanced color that I would rather not debate. This, of course, is just my opinion, but it is shared by several experts with decades in the industry (who I won't drag into a debate on this topic).
Nice reply.
The blue laser through phosphor has shortcomings of course, but everything is done in the industry (except for the very top end of course) to get tech down to a price point and I am guessing that RGB lasers are still somewhat prohibitively priced.

Even so, the stability of a laser drawn image is so much more comforting to my flicker sensitive eyes.

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post #98 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I would not limit my comments to Sony, I don't like the color balance of any BP lasers I've seen.
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Which is interesting, because I find the colours that are put on screen by laser projectors just look more natural and saturated.
We are each our own animals of course.
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I probably should have clarified what my reference was. Aside from OLED TV, my projector reference for saturated color was several of the Barco D Cinema projectors that exceeded P3. Aside from the Duo I have not critically viewed any of the bulb based HT projectors. My issue is with the Blue lasers (BP), I've watched a couple of RGB laser projectors (Barco, the initial Christie proto-type and the Cinemeccanica) and they have very good color. That said my projector reference was still Alan's HC modified Barco Prometheus for rich color saturation.
There is a whole technical discussion on the issues associated with narrow bandwidth Blue lasers fired through yellow phosphor and filters achieving balanced color that I would rather not debate. This, of course, is just my opinion, but it is shared by several experts with decades in the industry (who I won't drag into a debate on this topic).
This comes back to what I was saying about most people having never experienced good color with projectors. It all boils down to what is your comparative reference. Wherein, if you've never seen better than a singular blue laser through yellow phosphor projector then you will likely be scratching your heads wondering what the hell @Lasalle , @Alan Gouger and I are banging on about

However, the biggest issue alluding most singular blue laser through yellow phosphor home theater projectors right now is good WCG gamut coverage, without losing 40-45% of your light output via having to make use of an aggressive BT.2020 color filter. Both the SONY 5000ES and JVC RS4500/Z1 have this same very issue. And the SONY 995/870ES and 885/760ES don't have any filter at all.

Wherein, the first new home theater laser projector that can achieve 100% of DCI-P3 within BT2020 color gamut, in a usable manner, will achieve a significant step-up in HDR color performance as compared with all the current offerings.

So I hate to say it, but LASER light source does NOT necessarily equate to better video performance. As far as specifically color performance is concerned, with respect to singular blue laser projectors (which is all home theater projectors currently, except the Barco Thor), laser can mean worse, not better performance. Where, for example, the JVC RS2000/N7 and JVC RS3000/NX9, both of which are lamp-based, measure circa 94% of DCI-P3 coverage without any BT.2020 color filter and easily achieve 100% of DCI-P3 with the color filter and with only circa 10% light loss.

The crux of the issue is the limitations of singular blue laser through yellow phosphor with respect to achieving good WCG gamut coverage for HDR, which seem to require aggressive color filters to hit 100% of DCI-P3 which knock out nearly half of the projector's light output.

This is just one reason why I am lobbying for home theater projector manufacturers to go full RGB laser.

Flagship home theater laser projector models should be delivering superior, not worse, color performance than the lesser models. Singular blue laser projectors do not currently achieve this. RGB laser projectors most certainly would

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post #99 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Nice reply.
The blue laser through phosphor has shortcomings of course, but everything is done in the industry (except for the very top end of course) to get tech down to a price point and I am guessing that RGB lasers are still somewhat prohibitively priced.

Even so, the stability of a laser drawn image is so much more comforting to my flicker sensitive eyes.
Now THAT is most certainly often an advantage of laser as compared with many lamp-based projectors.

But I will reiterate that the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS does not have the micro-flicker that afflicts almost all lamp-based projectors, so in this regard it's somewhat a rarety

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post #100 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 06:37 AM
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I think we are talking at cross purposes but I agree with what you are saying as it applies to overall gamut and color based on your charts and what I see. I was referring to the long standing SDR back and forth about color on a Sony and color on other projectors like JVC when both are calibrated and now the same issue for HDR/wider gamut color.

For SDR (Rec709) the Sony I have, prior to drift, will pass gamut, saturation, hue, color checker, skin tones, memory colors, gamma, near black, etc. at my nit level. For HDR (2020/P3) I get a little better than what you show (my white is spot on) but my green is much, much worse than what you show over 75% (tracks very well to 75%) and I wish I knew how to get closer to your chart beyond 75%.

My point was that for either SDR or HDR if the comparative contrast differences for mid-tones are as you charted them and we look at 0 - 50% and perhaps even up to 75% then I can understand why the poor performance towards the outer rim may not be noticeable or relevant. I certainly would like to have a projector that is better as we move beyond 50% and 75% but for most movies I watch I don't see the issue as a practical one today in my case or would be for just about anyone I know that watches movies or sports at home.

To someone that has no idea of what the @Javs data extracted high lumen/high saturation frame that is then tone-mapped and shot through MadVR and shown as an image looks like or knows that a particular high green has too much yellow then I don't think they would freak out and ask that the projector be thrown away. Again, all I am saying is that for native to native and past lowest near black and prior to over 50% - 75% depending on the particular unit for HDR, Sony throws a pretty darn accurate and very nice image (IMHO) and your chart, to me, shows why they might like the Sony better. Not everyone is a fiend for the blackest blacks (although they would take them if they knew what the were missing and could get them all other things equal).

Sony probably did this intentionally for their target market and that is where they want to perform-- they want to be able to have marketable improvements down the road in black/near black and other areas beyond just more nits and throw a terrific picture in the mid-tones as that is what most non-AVS people see as "the picture". And before the Huns approach this is not to say that JVC or someone else doesn't have good/great mid-tones as well. Maybe I am missing or not understanding something though (which is VERY possible).

The likely cost differential between the double stack and the Sony vs the benefit in gamut and other areas each person has to decide for their own pocket and WAF. No matter what though I really appreciate the data you provide since we can actually see what the differences are from your analysis and then make our own, much better informed decision.

BTW, I don't use smooth gradation and don't see (and really don't want to lock my eye-brain combination into searching and seeing) posterization. I also don't have banding for either SDR or HDR.



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Sorry, but this is not good color performance:



The SONYs, when accurately calibrated, are not capable of reaching more than 80% - 90% of DCI-P3 within BT.2020 without without usage of a BT.2020 color filter and the color filter in the SONY 5000ES knocks out circa 40-45% of light output so you can't use it, wherein it covers only circa 85% of DCI-P3 at best. And none of the new SONY projectors, such as the 995/870ES and the 885/760ES have any BT.2020 color filters at all, so they are hamstrung in this regard.

It does not matter how well you calibrate a projector, if you don't have the gamut coverage, you don't have the gamut coverage. Meaning you can't calibrate the full range of color properly and cannot achieve reference color. End of story. I mean seriously, come on think about it, how are you going to accurately calibrate 100% saturation points if you don't have 100% gamut coverage? In short, you can't. Consequently, you cannot achieve reference color with HDR with any of these Sony projectors, however well you calibrate them. Like I said, if you don't have the gamut coverage you don't have the gamut coverage, and this is where SONY projectors currently fall short.

Whereas, the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS surpasses any and all SONY projectors by a mile by achieving up to 107% coverage of DCI-P3 and circa 85% of BT.2020, which I estimate is about 25%-30% more coverage of BT.2020 than the SONYs.

And I hate to say it, but that's not all... SONY projectors typically can't process 10-Bit color properly, which is what causes the manifestation of posterization/banding for which they are renown. Sure you can use Smooth Gradiation video processing to help eliminate the banding but doing so that softens the image and doesn't help the suboptimal color performance.

Seriously anyone who thinks a SONY projector has good color, has never seen good color. End of story. Greens, Reds, and Cyan performance in particular is poor.

Just to be clear, the ultimate target and reference standard for color is 100% coverage of BT.2020, which can already be achieved via full RGB laser projection. The milestone of 100% coverage of DCI-P3 within BT.2020 color gamut has already been surpassed, so all eyes should now be on the 100% of BT.2020 target. Whereas SONY is still struggling but failing to achieve 100% of DCI-P3.

So do SONY projectors have good color? Nope. Color performance ranks MEDIOCRE.

Don't get me wrong, I love SONY. All my TVs are SONY. I personally owned a SONY 1100ES projector for 5 years, and currently personally own a SONY 995/870ES. But I won't ignore their flaws. And it cannot be said that as of right now SONY projectors all offer good color performance. Sorry, but 85% - 90% coverage of DCI-P3 with projectors costing up to $70,000+ is not good enough. Sorry, but it just isn't! So it would be great to see SONY step up their game with their 2020 new projector model releases announced later this year in this regard and improve the gamut coverage of the projectors.

I really hope some of the folks who frequent this forum get to see the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS sometime. Just wait until you see the color performance of this thing. Seriously the difference in color peformance as compared with the Sony projectors is night and day.

In fact, methinks that a shootout versus a SONY 5000ES is in order

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Thanks for these numbers. Obviously they refer to the dynamic contrast value of about 1:28'600. Native contrast is 1:6247. With an open iris then the black floor would be then about 0.041 Nits.

The reason why I was asking: As a VW760 owner I was wondering how blacks of that SIM2 HDR DUO Plus might look compared to my setup. I measured 2 weeks ago its black floor and white level and got 0.009 Nits and 186 Nits, respectively. This is for laser 80 output that I am using for HDR. This is of course without any dynamic dimming resulting in a native contrast of about 1: 20.6 K then. My Vw760 has now about 1550 h on its timer.

Coming back to the Sim2 HDR DUO Plus Stack:
For me a black floor of 0.009 Nits is very acceptable. Of course not absolutely perfect and not on OLED level for sure but still very acceptable. Coupled with 258 Nits max and resulting then in the documented contrast performance I understand that this SIM2 HDR DUO PLUs stack is certainly highly impressive. I hope to see one quite soon. My local Swiss distributor told me that he wants to organize one.
@*Mori* what are your screen dimensions and gain?

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I think we are talking at cross purposes but I agree with what you are saying as it applies to overall gamut and color based on your charts and what I see. I was referring to the long standing SDR back and forth about color on a Sony and color on other projectors like JVC when both are calibrated and now the same issue for HDR/wider gamut color.

Spoiler!


BTW, I don't use smooth gradation and don't see (and really don't want to lock my eye-brain combination into searching and seeing) posterization. I also don't have banding for either SDR or HDR.
You asked who does not like SONY color and how if two projectors are calibrated properly can the color performance be any different. I answered your question. We are not debating SONY color performance versus JVC, which would not be on topic with respect to this thread anyway... And for what it's worth, posterization = banding; regarding which, with respect, you will most certainly have do have posterization/banding, and with both SDR and HDR, because it's actually often present within the media itself. So to claim that you have never experienced it with your SONY projector is an impossibility. That you don't notice it is a different matter entirely, but this does not mean it does not exist. But what happens with the SONYs is manifestation of additional non-source-derived posterization/banding due to not being able to process 10-Bit color properly. Wherein, this phenomenon has to my knowledge been well documented numerous times on these forums. That said, for most people it is not a big issue because Smooth Gradiation typically does a good job of eliminating it, albeit at the expensive of softening the image a bit and losing some fine detail. Either way, it is good to hear that you don't notice it, so at least for you it is a nonissue

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post #104 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 07:09 AM
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This comes back to what I was saying about most people having never experienced good color with projectors. It all boils down to what is your comparative reference.
Well, I for one experience exceptional colour the moment I wake up. That is my reference.

Curious as to your spelling of the word 'colour' there too Nigel....?
I thought you hailed from Blighty.....
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post #105 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 07:12 AM
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BTW, I don't use smooth gradation and don't see (and really don't want to lock my eye-brain combination into searching and seeing) posterization. I also don't have banding for either SDR or HDR.
Good choice! That can really be a downward spiral as far as satisfaction is concerned.

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Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
Thanks for these numbers. Obviously they refer to the dynamic contrast value of about 1:28'600. Native contrast is 1:6247. With an open iris then the black floor would be then about 0.041 Nits.

The reason why I was asking: As a VW760 owner I was wondering how blacks of that SIM2 HDR DUO Plus might look compared to my setup. I measured 2 weeks ago its black floor and white level and got 0.009 Nits and 186 Nits, respectively. This is for laser 80 output that I am using for HDR. This is of course without any dynamic dimming resulting in a native contrast of about 1: 20.6 K then. My Vw760 has now about 1550 h on its timer.

Coming back to the Sim2 HDR DUO Plus Stack:
For me a black floor of 0.009 Nits is very acceptable. Of course not absolutely perfect and not on OLED level for sure but still very acceptable. Coupled with 258 Nits max and resulting then in the documented contrast performance I understand that this SIM2 HDR DUO PLUs stack is certainly highly impressive. I hope to see one quite soon. My local Swiss distributor told me that he wants to organize one.
Well, properly matched so true apples versus apples comparison, on your screen, the SIM2 HDR DUO would have a black level of 0.0065 nits with 186 nits white level

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post #107 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 08:03 AM
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Well, properly matched so true apples versus apples comparison, on your screen, the SIM2 HDR DUO would have a black level of 0.0065 nits with 186 nits white level
I might do the real life tests and measurements in my set-up sooner than originally thought
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post #108 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 08:17 AM
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I think one issue we are facing is the pressure from walls. The 5000 is not a projector intended for home theater but a repurposed unit like the 608. Of course I have no idea what is going on at Sony or any other place but it does seem that the area of performance we are talking about in this thread isn't getting a whole lot of work. When one goes years without significant progress one has to wonder.


The Duo seems to be the "system" to beat ;for me it would be tough to go back to 1080 sitting 11.5 feet back from a 16' screen, it would require an architectural redo of my room go back to changing out lamps every 350 hours etc .


I think we are so close to the end for projection the manufacturers just aren't investing. Why doesn't SIM2 use this technology built into one unit with 4K chips ? I'm guessing that the R&D just is too risky. I think this is what we are seeing with the Christie Large Venue as well. They can't get a product to market with a reasonable hope of recouping the cost of development and production. We saw the proof of concept then six seven months later very very quiet.


Anyway just the musings of an end user.


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post #109 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
I think one issue we are facing is the pressure from walls. The 5000 is not a projector intended for home theater but a repurposed unit like the 608. Of course I have no idea what is going on at Sony or any other place but it does seem that the area of performance we are talking about in this thread isn't getting a whole lot of work. When one goes years without significant progress one has to wonder.


The Duo seems to be the "system" to beat ;for me it would be tough to go back to 1080 sitting 11.5 feet back from a 16' screen, it would require an architectural redo of my room go back to changing out lamps every 350 hours etc .


I think we are so close to the end for projection the manufacturers just aren't investing. Why doesn't SIM2 use this technology built into one unit with 4K chips ? I'm guessing that the R&D just is too risky. I think this is what we are seeing with the Christie Large Venue as well. They can't get a product to market with a reasonable hope of recouping the cost of development and production. We saw the proof of concept then six seven months later very very quiet.


Anyway just the musings of an end user.


Art
Agree completely Art, I've been saying that for a while. It's why manufacturers seem to be recycling models year after year with little change, or porting over commercial models - they just don't have the resources to commit to the ongoing development to make substantial gains in performance on a regular basis.
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post #110 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 09:47 AM
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Of course someone can tell there are differences between units that have vastly different gamut coverage and are looking at material or instruments that bring out or measure that difference. My statement was trying to get at: "for two units that have similar coverage and are calibrated people "may" like one over the other in the midtones as a result of what your contrast chart shows"; nothing more. I thought that was a very helpful chart in more areas than one. Your changing my post, (in jest I thought) prompted the reversal and this digression.

I also wasn't in any way trying to do a JVC vs Sony or anything like that but Nigel, come on, you show multiple charts comparing the performance of Christie, Sony, JVC, Sim and Brand X so to wonder/ask about your chart's potential influence on these same comparative units in categories that interact with the chart should be relevant to the discussion; shouldn't it?

My question here, as just another chart, is: "if you compared the same units with plotted curves from test patches 5 - 75 (not just the standard three from center) on the primary and secondaries axes what would that show?" Seeing the performance between the units may be of interest to some. I would expect the Sim to do a pretty good job there but I also would have expected the JVC to outperform the Sony all along your contrast chart. If this were done it might show how similar all these units are, given similar setup, in midtone reproduction; or not!

In any event the Sim stack seems to be really great product based on all the work you have done to illustrated the differences.

Last I recall you have never been in my room or seen my unit. Maybe I have banding but what I take to traditionally be banding that I can see in content and on other displays just isn't there for me in HDR from my seating distance or up close. I said I don't see or look for posterization from my seating distance and I am not a pixel peeper for anything other than focus and convergence; that doesn't; mean it isn't there and I never claimed that. Based on you statements and one other vocal person on this subject, I trust you that posterization is there. So between now and when you take a look at the next Sony release go pound on them and whoever else has it and get it gone!

Back on track....Peace

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You asked who does not like SONY color and how if two projectors are calibrated properly can the color performance be any different.


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post #111 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

The Duo seems to be the "system" to beat ;for me it would be tough to go back to 1080 sitting 11.5 feet back from a 16' screen, it would require an architectural redo of my room go back to changing out lamps every 350 hours etc .


I think we are so close to the end for projection the manufacturers just aren't investing. Why doesn't SIM2 use this technology built into one unit with 4K chips ? I'm guessing that the R&D just is too risky. I think this is what we are seeing with the Christie Large Venue as well. They can't get a product to market with a reasonable hope of recouping the cost of development and production. We saw the proof of concept then six seven months later very very quiet.



Art
You may want to go to a demo of the Duo, I can't see any pixels on my 13' screen until about 7' out (my front row is about 9.5' out). If the ratio's hold you would be good to 8.6' out. It may be due to the fact that you are projecting 2 1080p images, in addition, one could be a fraction of a pixel off the other.

SIM2 is working with 4K DLP chips but to date those chips can not produce the contrast of a TI Dark chip 3 (as I understand it). This is more of a TI issue, as Alan mentioned it is also an issue with the 4K LCOS chips not having the contrast of their 2K counterparts. Christie addresses this after the Chip with individual pixel shut off.
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post #112 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 10:39 AM
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UHP lamp light sources seem to be under-appreciated by many bedazzled with laser and laser-hybrid technologies. It's worth noting that with UHP lamps, the majority of the energy is in the visible spectrum with very high efficiency resulting in significantly lower cost per lumen. Pure laser systems (RGB), on the other hand, are relatively inefficient -- particularly green laser devices. Precise cooling systems are needed...most often large liquid cooling types. This adds complexity and cost. That said, I would echo what someone else here pointed out...that SIM2's lamp-driven UHD/HDR projector, the NERO 4S, can also be had in a DUAL format mode with projectors individually optimized for low and high light scenes. While it is not as sublime as the Dual 3-chp System, it is half the cost and it does check off the 4K box important to so many. As far as I can tell, it is the only DUAL UHD/HDR system on the market. Widescreen Review recently did a feature on the NERO 4S (single projector version) wherein high praise was extended in a number of areas, but particularly for HDR and motion performance. Two of them individually calibrated for high and low light should be even more impressive.
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post #113 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 11:28 AM
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Agree completely Art, I've been saying that for a while. It's why manufacturers seem to be recycling models year after year with little change, or porting over commercial models - they just don't have the resources to commit to the ongoing development to make substantial gains in performance on a regular basis.
Unfortunately once you have a mature technology, " substantial gains in performance on a regular basis " are difficult to achieve. At least at an affordable price. What's a 2019 Toyota Tacoma have that my 2001 doesn't ? Not much. Of course if they can't come up with substantial gains to sell, there's always a new must have standard that can be created ( " hello 8K, goodbye 4K ). Plus, there just aren't enough high end home theater projector buyers to matter that much. We don't generate enough R & D money to matter I'm afraid.
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post #114 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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UHP lamp light sources seem to be under-appreciated by many bedazzled with laser and laser-hybrid technologies. It's worth noting that with UHP lamps, the majority of the energy is in the visible spectrum with very high efficiency resulting in significantly lower cost per lumen. Pure laser systems (RGB), on the other hand, are relatively inefficient -- particularly green laser devices. Precise cooling systems are needed...most often large liquid cooling types. This adds complexity and cost. That said, I would echo what someone else here pointed out...that SIM2's lamp-driven UHD/HDR projector, the NERO 4S, can also be had in a DUAL format mode with projectors individually optimized for low and high light scenes. While it is not as sublime as the Dual 3-chp System, it is half the cost and it does check off the 4K box important to so many. As far as I can tell, it is the only DUAL UHD/HDR system on the market. Widescreen Review recently did a feature on the NERO 4S (single projector version) wherein high praise was extended in a number of areas, but particularly for HDR and motion performance. Two of them individually calibrated for high and low light should be even more impressive.
You are joking, right? Or let me put it this way, that 'review' of the NERO 4S is a joke

Firstly, technically you would not actually be 'checking off the 4K box' because the TI chipset used in the NERO 4S is NOT native 4K. It's 4 Megapixels resolution Pixel-Shifted.

Furthermore, I have myself comprehensively evaluated the NERO 4S and it has terrible ON/OFF contrast performance, abysmal black levels with low ADL scenes, bad posterization/banding, and rainbows

No thanks and I strongly recommend against anyone considering this projector whether a singular NERO 4S or the DUO version, which costing $60,000 is an extremely bad deal

The NERO 4S is really nothing more than equivalent to a very high brightness single-chip DLP projector with 4M pixel-shift resolution.

Seriously you would be much better off looking at the 6000 lumens BenQ LK990 instead and save yourself $52,000

That guy John Archer in his 'review' even himself states: "my overall impression is that while bright SDR/HD content looks good... dark scenes struggle to completely convince, and it’s here where I’ve felt it right to mark the Nero 4S down. Black levels don’t hit the sort of depths that JVC’s non-laser D-ILA projectors do with HDR material, either" and "There are other negatives to report. One is that I did occasionally notice DLP technology’s rainbow effect, where stripes of red, green and blue appear momentarily over stand-out bright parts of the picture"

...And then proceeds to award the projector 9/10

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post #115 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 12:07 PM
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You may want to go to a demo of the Duo, I can't see any pixels on my 13' screen until about 7' out (my front row is about 9.5' out). If the ratio's hold you would be good to 8.6' out. It may be due to the fact that you are projecting 2 1080p images, in addition, one could be a fraction of a pixel off the other.

SIM2 is working with 4K DLP chips but to date those chips can not produce the contrast of a TI Dark chip 3 (as I understand it). This is more of a TI issue, as Alan mentioned it is also an issue with the 4K LCOS chips not having the contrast of their 2K counterparts. Christie addresses this after the Chip with individual pixel shut off.

I had a SIM projector with that chip and pixel structure was clearly visible in my second row unless I used an anamorphic lens or defocused a bit and was visible in the front row even then. Even the Thor has clearly visible structure at a distance slight closer than my present seating distance due to DLP fill factor. I love the look of the DLP image.. one can walk in the room and see it instantly. After watching the Christie it took me a while to start to enjoy my stack.

Please don't get me wrong the Duo sounds like a wonderful product but for my use/install etc I know that I'm going to be waiting for my step up.... it has to be such for me to move.


I'm holding for the Christie large venue unless something else shows up that isn't in the pipeline but as things seem to be going that is very unlikely as walls are going to be the next thing IMO.

Art
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post #116 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 01:19 PM
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You are joking, right? Or let me put it this way, that 'review' of the NERO 4S is a joke

Firstly, technically you would not actually be 'checking off the 4K box' because the TI chipset used in the NERO 4S is NOT native 4K. It's 4 Megapixels resolution Pixel-Shifted.

Furthermore, I have myself comprehensively evaluated the NERO 4S and it has terrible ON/OFF contrast performance, abysmal black levels with low ADL scenes, bad posterization/banding, and rainbows

No thanks and I strongly recommend against anyone considering this projector whether a singular NERO 4S or the DUO version, which costing $60,000 is an extremely bad deal

The NERO 4S is really nothing more than equivalent to a very high brightness single-chip DLP projector with 4M pixel-shift resolution.

Seriously you would be much better off looking at the 6000 lumens BenQ LK990 instead and save yourself $52,000

That guy John Archer in his 'review' even himself states: "my overall impression is that while bright SDR/HD content looks good... dark scenes struggle to completely convince, and it’s here where I’ve felt it right to mark the Nero 4S down. Black levels don’t hit the sort of depths that JVC’s non-laser D-ILA projectors do with HDR material, either" and "There are other negatives to report. One is that I did occasionally notice DLP technology’s rainbow effect, where stripes of red, green and blue appear momentarily over stand-out bright parts of the picture"

...And then proceeds to award the projector 9/10

Perhaps you are confusing reviews. The Widescreen Review article was by Doug Blackburn, not John Archer. it is in the March 2019 issue. My understanding is that there have been several significant updates to the original NERO 4 and the one Doug Blackburn reviewed is the most recent. I don't know which iteration you may have had. No need to get snippy about what constitutes 4K. We all know how TI's single chip achieves reproduction of the 8 million pixels needed for a "UHD" designation. As for the "Achilles heel" associated with DLP contrast, read what Blackburn says about it. If it produces the best HDR, contrast must be pretty good....more so, I imagine, in a dual projector arrangement. Moreover, no RBE was detected in his review, and I suspect even less potential for this with two projectors properly calibrated for their respective duties. I believe the price of the Dual NERO 4S system including the adjustable bracket that joins them is around $55K.

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post #117 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 01:30 PM
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Unfortunately once you have a mature technology, " substantial gains in performance on a regular basis " are difficult to achieve. At least at an affordable price. What's a 2019 Toyota Tacoma have that my 2001 doesn't ? Not much. Of course if they can't come up with substantial gains to sell, there's always a new must have standard that can be created ( " hello 8K, goodbye 4K ). Plus, there just aren't enough high end home theater projector buyers to matter that much. We don't generate enough R & D money to matter I'm afraid.

Except that in this case we obviously aren't talking about some price point ,additionally the technologies are all out there but all in different products and thus none are really new. Combine them ,as Christie has done ,you have it yet not being marketed. But yes IMO it is just too small a niche to warrant the work. Sad but true.

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post #118 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 01:42 PM
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I had a SIM projector with that chip and pixel structure was clearly visible in my second
Art
Sorry I should have been more clear. With one projector on the pixel structure is visible from my front row (I just turn one on when I work on my media player library and setups). When the second projector is turned on as well, the pixel structure is not visible from the front row anymore and I need to move to about 7 feet out to see it.

But if you have your sights set on the Christie, go for it
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post #119 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 01:47 PM
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I agree???
yeah threw it out there!!

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post #120 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 01:50 PM
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You were good till the last statement.

Mark,
Frankly ,this just isn't where I'm going to go ,too many years at 1080 to go back with my seating preferences and a 16' wide screen, but I do appreciate the offer.

Art
anytime you are driving east on I-94 just 2 hrs away

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