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post #121 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
Sorry I should have been more clear. With one projector on the pixel structure is visible from my front row (I just turn one on when I work on my media player library and setups). When the second projector is turned on as well, the pixel structure is not visible from the front row anymore and I need to move to about 7 feet out to see it.

But if you have your sights set on the Christie, go for it
That's interesting !
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post #122 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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You are joking, right? Or let me put it this way, that 'review' of the NERO 4S is a joke

Firstly, technically you would not actually be 'checking off the 4K box' because the TI chipset used in the NERO 4S is NOT native 4K. It's 4 Megapixels resolution Pixel-Shifted.

Furthermore, I have myself comprehensively evaluated the NERO 4S and it has terrible ON/OFF contrast performance, abysmal black levels with low ADL scenes, bad posterization/banding, and rainbows

No thanks and I strongly recommend against anyone considering this projector whether a singular NERO 4S or the DUO version, which costing $60,000 is an extremely bad deal

The NERO 4S is really nothing more than equivalent to a very high brightness single-chip DLP projector with 4M pixel-shift resolution.

Seriously you would be much better off looking at the 6000 lumens BenQ LK990 instead and save yourself $52,000

That guy John Archer in his 'review' even himself states: "my overall impression is that while bright SDR/HD content looks good... dark scenes struggle to completely convince, and it’s here where I’ve felt it right to mark the Nero 4S down. Black levels don’t hit the sort of depths that JVC’s non-laser D-ILA projectors do with HDR material, either" and "There are other negatives to report. One is that I did occasionally notice DLP technology’s rainbow effect, where stripes of red, green and blue appear momentarily over stand-out bright parts of the picture"

...And then proceeds to award the projector 9/10

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Originally Posted by Pete View Post
Perhaps you are confusing reviews. The Widescreen Review article was by Doug Blackburn, not John Archer. it is in the March 2019 issue. My understanding is that there have been several significant updates to the original NERO 4 and the one Doug Blackburn reviewed is the most recent. I don't know which iteration you may have had. No need to get snippy about what constitutes 4K. We all know how TI's single chip achieves reproduction of the 8 million pixels needed for a "UHD" designation. As for the "Achilles heel" associated with DLP contrast, read what Blackburn says about it. If it produces the best HDR, contrast must be pretty good....more so, I imagine, in a dual projector arrangement. Moreover, no RBE was detected in his review, and I suspect even less potential for this with two projectors properly calibrated for their respective duties. I believe the price of the Dual NERO 4S system including the adjustable bracket that joins them is around $55K.
Yes I was confusing reviews. The review to which I am referring is the one also dated March 2019 that featured in Home Cinema Choice Magazine by John Archer. He is reviewing the latest iteration and he confirms that it is afflicted by the Rainbow Effect (RBE) and mentions the poor black levels as per I have quoted above.

And yes, it is the latest iteration that I myself have comprehensively evaluated and it has terrible ON/OFF contrast performance, abysmal black levels with low ADL scenes, bad posterization/banding, and rainbows. Sorry!

As such I strongly recommend against anyone considering either the SIM2 NERO 4S or the SIM2 NERO 4S DUO.

As it happens it is my understanding that @Alan Gouger has also, like me, evaluated the latest iteration of the SIM2 NERO 4S. Perhaps he will offer his opinion regarding its performance in its own right and as compared with the HDR DUO PLUS?


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post #123 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 03:33 PM
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post #124 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 05:57 PM
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Is it me or does this thread just read like an infomercial?
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4K HDR10- ignore the “rules” and trust your eyes!
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post #125 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
You are joking, right? Or let me put it this way, that 'review' of the NERO 4S is a joke

Firstly, technically you would not actually be 'checking off the 4K box' because the TI chipset used in the NERO 4S is NOT native 4K. It's 4 Megapixels resolution Pixel-Shifted.

Furthermore, I have myself comprehensively evaluated the NERO 4S and it has terrible ON/OFF contrast performance, abysmal black levels with low ADL scenes, bad posterization/banding, and rainbows

No thanks and I strongly recommend against anyone considering this projector whether a singular NERO 4S or the DUO version, which costing $60,000 is an extremely bad deal

The NERO 4S is really nothing more than equivalent to a very high brightness single-chip DLP projector with 4M pixel-shift resolution.

Seriously you would be much better off looking at the 6000 lumens BenQ LK990 instead and save yourself $52,000

That guy John Archer in his 'review' even himself states: "my overall impression is that while bright SDR/HD content looks good... dark scenes struggle to completely convince, and it’s here where I’ve felt it right to mark the Nero 4S down. Black levels don’t hit the sort of depths that JVC’s non-laser D-ILA projectors do with HDR material, either" and "There are other negatives to report. One is that I did occasionally notice DLP technology’s rainbow effect, where stripes of red, green and blue appear momentarily over stand-out bright parts of the picture"

...And then proceeds to award the projector 9/10

And oddly, I believe (I may be wrong)the Nero 4S was the choice of projector installed in CEDIA's new headquarters. Someone around here was just talking about it who did the calibration.

EDIT: im going to look around and try to find that article.

https://www.svconline.com/blog/221-1

It was the Barco Loki. Yikes ive heard bad things about its contrast. 500:1 They are only demoing bright stuff in that room.

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post #126 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 07:56 PM
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Is it me or does this thread just read like an infomercial?
Not unlike your reviews.
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post #127 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 08:00 PM
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Not unlike your reviews.
Not even close. I am not a dealer in here selling 1080p projectors (or trying too) which looks like they have to convince and persuade with each post. It’s actually entertaining though.

Oh and thanks for reading my Reviews.

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post #128 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Not even close. I am not a dealer in here selling 1080p projectors (or trying too) which looks like they have to convince and persuade with each post. It’s actually entertaining though.

Oh and thanks for reading my Reviews.
means it was in good fun and not serious. Dont be so sensitive.

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post #129 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 08:04 PM
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means it was in good fun and not serious. Dont be so sensitive.
Either way good fun or not you implied I was taking sales orders.

Now this thread here ...

4K HDR10- ignore the “rules” and trust your eyes!
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post #130 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 08:15 PM
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Either way good fun or not you implied I was taking sales orders.

Now this thread here ...
I didn't mean to imply that, honestly. It was more to imply Sony fanboyism. But anyway.....

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post #131 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 08:55 PM
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@ARROW-AV , silly question maybe. Why didn't they make it 4k? I mean, obviously there's always the cost factor but the way I see it, we're talking about a $100k+ projector here, what would making it 4k cost the consumer? 20-30% extra? What's more of a deal breaker to those in the market for a $100k projector, an extra $20-30k on the price or the lack of 4k? I mean we've already seen one person capable of purchasing this projector bow out due to the lack of 4k....

Or was it more or a technical issue than cost? Perhaps they couldn't guarantee the same pixel perfect alignment over 6 chips with 4k, even with their alignment tech? On that matter, is the alignment tech and/or the way of combining the two projectors in this way (low light and high light projectors) patented in any way? Is there anything stopping JVC or Sony from adapting their existing projectors easily (maybe even a software update!) to enable an option to do this when two of their projectors are present, say with two NX7/9's synced up that might potentially be able achieve most of the same performance for a fraction of the price?

Thank you as always for the in depth write ups and technical information, again, even if us mere mortals cannot afford it, doesn't make it any less fascinating to read.
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post #132 of 236 Old 04-30-2019, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
Sorry I should have been more clear. With one projector on the pixel structure is visible from my front row (I just turn one on when I work on my media player library and setups). When the second projector is turned on as well, the pixel structure is not visible from the front row anymore and I need to move to about 7 feet out to see it.

But if you have your sights set on the Christie, go for it
Why is that then? Do the pixels from the second projector not perfectly overlap the pixels from the first?
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post #133 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
You may want to go to a demo of the Duo, I can't see any pixels on my 13' screen until about 7' out (my front row is about 9.5' out). If the ratio's hold you would be good to 8.6' out.
If I can see individual pixels from my seating position then any projector is definitively out for me. That's why I did not like my JVC X7000 to project any 1080p material and its softening eshift was not good either.
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post #134 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 01:29 AM
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Why is that then? Do the pixels from the second projector not perfectly overlap the pixels from the first?
I was wondering if part of the setup required to achieve that might involve having one projector very, very slightly offset from the other so you'd effectively fill the pixel gap, which would have the effect in much content of halving the brightness of that gap and making it less noticeable. Or slightly de-focusing one or both of the units I believe is sometimes done with DLP.
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post #135 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 02:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Is it me or does this thread just read like an infomercial?
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Not even close. I am not a dealer in here selling 1080p projectors (or trying too) which looks like they have to convince and persuade with each post. It’s actually entertaining though.

Oh and thanks for reading my Reviews.
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Either way good fun or not you implied I was taking sales orders.

Now this thread here ...
We are discussing my impartial indepth scientific analysis and review of this new projector and it's performance. Both @Lasalle and @mburnstein own the projector. And last time I checked none of us are being paid to advertise the product. So how is it like an infomercial exactly?

Enough already with the unwarranted petty jibes please. This is now THREE TIMES within a short period of time. Make it the last please.

Discuss the products not other people or their posting behaviour. That is the forum rules.

Many thanks in advance

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post #136 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 02:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
Sorry I should have been more clear. With one projector on the pixel structure is visible from my front row (I just turn one on when I work on my media player library and setups). When the second projector is turned on as well, the pixel structure is not visible from the front row anymore and I need to move to about 7 feet out to see it.

But if you have your sights set on the Christie, go for it
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Why is that then? Do the pixels from the second projector not perfectly overlap the pixels from the first?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I was wondering if part of the setup required to achieve that might involve having one projector very, very slightly offset from the other so you'd effectively fill the pixel gap, which would have the effect in much content of halving the brightness of that gap and making it less noticeable. Or slightly de-focusing one or both of the units I believe is sometimes done with DLP.
Here's a close-up of the projected image produced by the combination of both projectors wherein you can see the pixel structure.

As stated in my review I did evaluate pixel-structure visibility with both projectors combined with respect to seating positions and I did not consider this to be an issue and I have 20/16 vision:





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post #137 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 03:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LondonBenji View Post
@ARROW-AV , silly question maybe. Why didn't they make it 4k? I mean, obviously there's always the cost factor but the way I see it, we're talking about a $100k+ projector here, what would making it 4k cost the consumer? 20-30% extra? What's more of a deal breaker to those in the market for a $100k projector, an extra $20-30k on the price or the lack of 4k? I mean we've already seen one person capable of purchasing this projector bow out due to the lack of 4k....

Or was it more or a technical issue than cost? Perhaps they couldn't guarantee the same pixel perfect alignment over 6 chips with 4k, even with their alignment tech? On that matter, is the alignment tech and/or the way of combining the two projectors in this way (low light and high light projectors) patented in any way? Is there anything stopping JVC or Sony from adapting their existing projectors easily (maybe even a software update!) to enable an option to do this when two of their projectors are present, say with two NX7/9's synced up that might potentially be able achieve most of the same performance for a fraction of the price?

Thank you as always for the in depth write ups and technical information, again, even if us mere mortals cannot afford it, doesn't make it any less fascinating to read.
Not at all a silly question

In short, technical issue.

At the time of developing the product there was no native 4K 3-Chip DLP DMD Chipset available to purchase from Texas Instruments. The only chip in existence at the time was the 1.43" Cinema chip, however this was unavailable due to still being within exclusive license agreement between TI and Christie, Barco, and NEC for exclusive use within their D-Cinema projectors.

Furthermore, the 0.67” 4M-Pixel-Shift DMD Single-Chip DLP chipset released by TI has comparatively very poor contrast performance as compared with the DarkChip HD 1080p DMD chipset used in the HDR DUO PLUS, meaning that there would have been a big drop in contrast, black levels, dynamic range, and HDR performance if SIM2 had used that chip; wherein, projectors using that chip are measuring only circa 800:1 native ON/OFF contrast, whereas this measures 8 times the performance of that.

What is really needed is a Native 4K resolution DarkChip 3-Chip DLP DMD, but as of today no such chipset exists.

So at the present time the CHRISTIE is the only native 4K resolution projector with very high contrast performance through the entire range 0-20% ADL wherein almost all video content resides.

BARCO has some new projectors in the pipeline that will be making use of another intriguing patented new technology, labelled 'Light Steering' technology wherein light is shifted away from the dark parts of the image to the bright parts thereby increasing the contrast and dynamic range. However, BARCO being BARCO the focus has been on using this technology to increase the top end, namely the brightness, as opposed to focusing on improving black levels. Furthermore, due to the way the technology works it is limited by how much light there is to move in the first place, in other words with very low ADL content it probably won't make much of an improvement. So for these two reasons I don't expect performance to achieve even close to what the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS and CHRISTIE are able to achieve, but still hope to be pleasantly surprised as and when I see the next round of prototypes, which I hope will perform better than the earlier prototypes...


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post #138 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 03:12 AM
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There's one thing i don't get: if the CHRISTIE vpr is so much better, someone looking for excellence and with big budget on hands why should choose the over complicate Sim2 dual vpr 1080p solution over the Christie? Price?
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There's one thing i don't get: if the CHRISTIE vpr is so much better, someone looking for excellence and with big budget on hands why should choose the over complicated Sim2 dual vpr 1080p solution over the Christie? Price?
TWO reasons:

(1) PRICE; and

(2) SIZE

The SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS is circa half the price of the CHRISTIE

The SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS is compact, with crazily small footprint, and is also very quiet operating noise levels (measuring 29 dB) so it suitable for installing in-room without even needing a hush box.

Whereas, the CHRISTIE is massive and loud, so is not suitable for installing in-room and needs to be installed into a separate projection room or booth. Even the projector head is enormous.

In short, they are at different price points with different applications

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post #140 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 04:46 AM
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Why is that then? Do the pixels from the second projector not perfectly overlap the pixels from the first?
I’m not exactly sure, but as you can see from Nigel’s test patterns there is no visible shadowing from misalignment. It could be a
Combination of things. The top projector is slightly farther from the screen (slight larger pixel hitting at a different angle, also different brightness levels). There may Also be a fractional pixel difference in alignment, but I can’t see it. The picture looks like the 4K pictures I’ve seen, at least from my 2 rows of seating. Like Nigel my vision is pretty good, 20/20 and I still don’t need reading glasses at 61. I brought this up because I was initially set on getting a
4K laser and thought this would be a big issue. As with any product of this caliber, I would encourage you to see for yourself , the numbers
Only give so much of the total picture.
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post #141 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 06:44 AM
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And oddly, I believe (I may be wrong)the Nero 4S was the choice of projector installed in CEDIA's new headquarters. Someone around here was just talking about it who did the calibration.

EDIT: im going to look around and try to find that article.

https://www.svconline.com/blog/221-1

It was the Barco Loki. Yikes ive heard bad things about its contrast. 500:1 They are only demoing bright stuff in that room.
Ken Whitcomb did the video calibration of the Barco Loki. I built the racks and did the audio calibration. At the grand opening, we used the opening scene from The Greatest Showman, Bohemian Rhapsody Live Aid scene, and I forget what else. So not all bright demo content. We also considered scenes from Lucy, Blade Runner 2049, Oblivion, and other favorites.
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post #142 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 06:48 AM
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Their design is unique, wonder if others could also implement (light and dark units). So, if put up a grey scale cover one of the lenses, you will see part of the scale disappear? This thread has been a real education in what actually ends up giving you a great picture. Thanks again for sharing. SJ
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post #143 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 07:27 AM
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Why is that then? Do the pixels from the second projector not perfectly overlap the pixels from the first?
Also, I wonder if it will ever suffer from micro asynchronisation?

By that I mean what will happen if one projector is doing its e-shifting at a rate that is minutely different to the other...… How do they keep them perfectly in sync? That might get weird on my old eyeballs....

I would have thought having native chips, would simplify the whole thing a great deal...?

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post #144 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 07:31 AM
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I have 20/16 vision
C'mon Nigel! You really should upgrade to 20/19 vision. It has higher bandwidth and no posterization.
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post #145 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Also, I wonder if it will ever suffer from micro asynchronisation?

By that I mean what will happen if one projector is doing its e-shifting at a rate that is minutely different to the other...… How do they keep them perfectly in sync? That might get weird on my old eyeballs....

I would have thought having native chips, would simplify the whole thing a great deal...?
To clarify, both projectors are HD 1080p resolution. There is no e-shifting

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C'mon Nigel! You really should upgrade to 20/19 vision. It has higher bandwidth and no posterization.
I think you mean downgrade, as 20/19 vision is worse than 20/16

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post #146 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
To clarify, both projectors are HD 1080p resolution. There is no e-shifting
Gotcha. They are permanently offset then. So how do you get perfectly square corners (of the screen) in that case?


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think you mean downgrade, as 20/19 vision is worse than 20/16

….Yur, know that...but.... 'cos year...…

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post #147 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Gotcha. They are permanently offset then. So how do you get perfectly square corners (of the screen) in that case?
There is no offset. Just two 1080p images overlapping.


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post #148 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 10:44 AM
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There is no offset. Just two 1080p images overlapping.


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Doesn't that just make a brighter 1080 image?
Wouldn't you need 4x1080 screens to make 4k?

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post #149 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Doesn't that just make a brighter 1080 image?
Wouldn't you need 4x1080 screens to make 4k?
To clarify, the projected image resulting from the combination of the two projectors is HD 1080p resolution. It is not 4K


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post #150 of 236 Old 05-01-2019, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi folks,

Well I just heard some exciting news...

It is looking like SIM2 will have the HDR DUO PLUS on demo at CEDIA 2019 in Denver, which is in only 4 months time in September

So, any of fine gentlemen and ladies attending CEDIA this year should hopefully be able to check it out and see what all the fuss is about.


Last edited by ARROW-AV; 05-01-2019 at 02:37 PM.
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