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Deja Vu 05-10-2019 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARROW-AV (Post 58028912)
Well it's lucky that everyone's seating, and all their seating, is not more than 6-8 feet in front of their screen, isn't it?

Oh, wait... :p

https://photos.smugmug.com/AVSFORUM-...8hi-res%29.jpg

:wink:

I completely agree. Resolution has taken on a life of its own spurred on by the "more is better" mentality.

If you're in the business and the market is saturated with 4K monitors it's time to put the hype into hyperdrive and push 8K like crazy, whether anyone actually needs it in a home environment or not. It's the nature of the beast.

The trick is to make people want it -- even if they know better.

Art Sonneborn 05-11-2019 11:55 AM

Looks like my seating position is right at the beginning of where 8k would be worth it, my second row is in the middle of where 4k is worth it. Hey , it's just me.

ARROW-AV 05-11-2019 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 58032762)
Looks like my seating position is right at the beginning of where 8k would be worth it, my second row is in the middle of where 4k is worth it. Hey , it's just me.

What about your third row? Where is that with respect to things? :)

:wink:

Steve Bruzonsky 05-11-2019 07:45 PM

For 8k to be worth it there will need to be additional visible picture improvement such as HDR has been for 4k. After all won’t the production still be mostly shot in 2k with perhaps in time more shot in 4k?

wwtech 05-11-2019 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky (Post 58034334)
For 8k to be worth it there will need to be additional visible picture improvement such as HDR has been for 4k. After all won’t the production still be mostly shot in 2k with perhaps in time more shot in 4k?

Currently a lot of films are captured in more than 4K resolution. The bottleneck is partly in editing but mostly special effects. It takes time and serious horsepower to make all the effects shots in 4K or higher. But it can be done. Oh, and not a lot of cinemas have upgraded to 4K. They are still mostly 2K.

SJHT 05-12-2019 06:43 AM

What do you do with 4K HDR sources for this type of setup? Have the Lumagen output 1080p SDR2020? :confused:

Lasalle 05-12-2019 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJHT (Post 58035454)
What do you do with 4K HDR sources for this type of setup? Have the Lumagen output 1080p SDR2020? :confused:

Please see Posts 29-33

donaldk 05-12-2019 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARROW-AV (Post 58021484)
In short, it is a 6000 lumens rated lamp-based projector, which uses the same TI 0.67” 4M-Pixel-Shift Resolution 1-Chip DMD DLP chipset as is found within the entry level OPTOMA and BENQ projectors.

Actually Sim2 has been using Delta platforms also used by Vivitek, as well as Coretronic. BenQ was the only one that had the big first generation 4K XPR Technology Coretronic platform, with a lamp, the original Philips HLD set, and later the blu-laser-phoshor light sourced version. Casio entered the large venue market with its 5000 lumens version. Acer was the first to market with its lamp based version.

In the commecial market both Barco and Christie have been selling 3DMD pixel shifting 4k projectors for a few years now, purely based on cost, same for the smaller single dmd units. But given the price premium in HT buying a commercial native 4K projector might not be that much more expensive. Some are even saying the SRX-R608 is giving the native 4K DLP projectors a good run for their money.

donaldk 05-12-2019 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobof (Post 57966196)
I dunno, I almost get it and from me it gets an "it's a shame but... meh". Lumagen isn't just about UHD / BD discs, a lot of folk use them with TV boxes etc. At 60p you're not doing 10bit RGB on even 18G HDMI, so is it that much of a limitation? Probably better to use 4:2:2 12 bit for everything (which is what it does). Otherwise you're losing bit depth at 60p to transfer pixels you could have decoded at the other end becasue they weren't unique in the source to start with.

MadVR is coming from a different angle, where PC support for what really is the standard for UHD 4:2:2 has actually been the afterthought. If you're doing 4k60p and in RGB you'll be doing it at 8 bit unless it sports HDMI 2.1...

Of course this particular product is a bit of a special case, as you only need 1080p outputs, but Lumagen haven't allowed for that combo (I think the previous 1080p products did have high bit depth RGB out, I recall seeing a 36bpp RGB option). It might now be a choice and it might be a limitation of the chips used or how they are hooked up, someone would have to ask @jrp .

It's funny to think though; who would have thought we'd care about 1080p projectors in 2019?! :)

The norm for broadcast 4K is 10 bit 4:2:0, so 60P works on HDMI 2.0a/b's 18 gigabit/s limit. One of the initial chipset developer had 4:2:2 as an option in its set-tops it seeded the market with, but only on the output chip that created it from the 4:2:0 signal, as decoded by its HEVC decoder chip. There is no-one willing to pay the bandwidth cost for going over 10 Bit, all broadcasts are limited to 10 bit 4:2:0, so the TV-boxes users have no use for higher that would not carry over a single link.

Lasalle 05-16-2019 05:10 AM

We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger yesterday to dial in the Lumagen Darbee settings for 3D and 2D Blu-ray.
We were able to increase the apparent pop close to HDR levels. One of the movies we used was Everest, my wife hates heights and when we watched it a couple of days ago, she needed a drink to calm her nerves. It turns out Alan has a similar affinity, the 3D scenes were so deep it knocked him off his game as well. I believe Alan is now a full fledged 3D fan.

Ash Sharma 05-16-2019 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasalle (Post 58055200)
We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger yesterday to dial in the Lumagen Darbee settings for 3D and 2D Blu-ray.
We were able to increase the apparent pop close to HDR levels. One of the movies we used was Everest, my wife hates heights and when we watched it a couple of days ago, she needed a drink to calm her nerves. It turns out Alan has a similar affinity, the 3D scenes were so deep it knocked him off his game as well. I believe Alan is now a full fledged 3D fan.

Awesome Post - I love 3D on my OLED - but the screen is a Puny 65 inch - can't wait to have higher Lumen projectors out ... or the WALL ...and in your case to be able to get the pop close to HDR - I can only imagine.
3D is the best way to watch movies provided you can get he OLED punch.

SJHT 05-16-2019 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasalle (Post 58055200)
We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger yesterday to dial in the Lumagen Darbee settings for 3D and 2D Blu-ray.
We were able to increase the apparent pop close to HDR levels. One of the movies we used was Everest, my wife hates heights and when we watched it a couple of days ago, she needed a drink to calm her nerves. It turns out Alan has a similar affinity, the 3D scenes were so deep it knocked him off his game as well. I believe Alan is now a full fledged 3D fan.

Given that entertainment area, looks like you have plenty to drink handy...:)

Jeffg8 05-16-2019 07:42 AM

A fascinating review and marvelous setup. I always appreciate the passion for this hobby at all levels. Question...I'm unclear are the movies normal 1080 bluerays or are the uhd 4k somehow unconverted for the wcg. I'm sure there is also a kaleidoscope in the mix.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Alan Gouger 05-17-2019 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasalle (Post 58055200)
We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger yesterday to dial in the Lumagen Darbee settings for 3D and 2D Blu-ray.
We were able to increase the apparent pop close to HDR levels. One of the movies we used was Everest, my wife hates heights and when we watched it a couple of days ago, she needed a drink to calm her nerves. It turns out Alan has a similar affinity, the 3D scenes were so deep it knocked him off his game as well. I believe Alan is now a full fledged 3D fan.

3D is the only way to watch this title, it puts you right in the movie, hanging on the side of the mountain. I do not like heights, Brad had no remorse and turned on the Dbox system. I thought I was on a ride at Universal Studios :)

Deja Vu 05-21-2019 05:49 PM

Here's a link to an interesting discussion (with demos) about resolution and just how important (or not) it is once you are using HD or higher sources. Click on the top left and watch "one" and then "two".


http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/ResDemoPt2.html

Lasalle 05-22-2019 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deja Vu (Post 58081384)
Here's a link to an interesting discussion (with demos) about resolution and just how important (or not) it is once you are using HD or higher sources. Click on the top left and watch "one" and then "two".


http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/ResDemoPt2.html

Excellent post and discussion on Spacial Resolution. Nigels new measurements were very revealing regarding on screen contrast that went against the conventional wisdom that on/off was all that mattered. This piece has a similar revelation on spacial resolution.

Deja Vu 05-23-2019 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasalle (Post 58083576)
Excellent post and discussion on Spacial Resolution. Nigels new measurements were very revealing regarding on screen contrast that went against the conventional wisdom that on/off was all that mattered. This piece has a similar revelation on spacial resolution.

Apparently the above link was originally posted by Kris Deering, who in my opinion really knows his stuff. I found a reference to the link on another forum and thought it would be useful in understanding this thread -- why a 1080p projector can still be relevant.

Years ago I fed HD (1080p) to a low resolution digital projector, which would accept the HD signal and I was shocked at how good the image looked. This was high resolution material down scaled to a much lower resolution, yet the image looked like a HD image.

Using a 4K player I've played a 4K blu-ray down scaled to 1080p to my display and I think it looks slightly better than normal blu-ray.

I've also a been a big fan of 3D for the last decade or so. I've used Da-lite 2.8 gain High Power screens for years and this screen makes a big difference for opening up 3D and compensating for much of the light lost through the glasses. Bright, cross-talk free 3D is very impressive and can be highly immersive. Most people don't get to see it this way and walk away -- having seen it displayed in a light throttled way I'd also assume it's not worth the effort if I didn't know better.

Lasalle 05-23-2019 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deja Vu (Post 58087742)
Apparently the above link was originally posted by Kris Deering, who in my opinion really knows his stuff. I found a reference to the link on another forum and thought it would be useful in understanding this thread -- why a 1080p projector can still be relevant.

Years ago I fed HD (1080p) to a low resolution digital projector, which would accept the HD signal and I was shocked at how good the image looked. This was high resolution material down scaled to a much lower resolution, yet the image looked like a HD image.

Using a 4K player I've played a 4K blu-ray down scaled to 1080p to my display and I think it looks slightly better than normal blu-ray.

I've also a been a big fan of 3D for the last decade or so. I've used Da-lite 2.8 gain High Power screens for years and this screen makes a big difference for opening up 3D and compensating for much of the light lost through the glasses. Bright, cross-talk free 3D is very impressive and can be highly immersive. Most people don't get to see it this way and walk away -- having seen it displayed in a light throttled way I'd also assume it's not worth the effort if I didn't know better.

I would agree that Kris is a real expert on video. I believe he has been collaborating with Nigel and is starting to use the onscreen contrast test highlighted at the start of this thread. As good as the UHD picture is on the Duo, I have to say almost everyone (including my whole family) prefers the 3D version of the movies. It throws a very bright 3D image on a 13ft wide screen. I've also used the Lumagen Darbee settings to increase the pop. Currently, I have a unigain AT weave screen. The two area's I will keep an eye on for improving the picture :
1) Future development on high quality AT weave(not micro perf) screens with higher gain.
2) Upscalling capabilities to upscale SDR to HDR with metedata and expanding 8bit to 10bit color

I believe these would yield real 3D picture improvement.

donaldk 05-24-2019 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deja Vu (Post 58087742)
Apparently the above link was originally posted by Kris Deering, who in my opinion really knows his stuff. I found a reference to the link on another forum and thought it would be useful in understanding this thread -- why a 1080p projector can still be relevant.

Years ago I fed HD (1080p) to a low resolution digital projector, which would accept the HD signal and I was shocked at how good the image looked. This was high resolution material down scaled to a much lower resolution, yet the image looked like a HD image.

Using a 4K player I've played a 4K blu-ray down scaled to 1080p to my display and I think it looks slightly better than normal blu-ray.

I've also a been a big fan of 3D for the last decade or so. I've used Da-lite 2.8 gain High Power screens for years and this screen makes a big difference for opening up 3D and compensating for much of the light lost through the glasses. Bright, cross-talk free 3D is very impressive and can be highly immersive. Most people don't get to see it this way and walk away -- having seen it displayed in a light throttled way I'd also assume it's not worth the effort if I didn't know better.

Yup, when the signal used and the signal captured end at the same point the contrast curve goes down to zero at the highest resolution. If you capture 8K and transmit/display 1080P the contrast at the maximum resolution displayed is much closer to 100%. Examples have been shown in almost every presentation by Mark Schubin. There have also tests to transmit HD as 540P,or 480P or something similar SD like and the let the display show it as HD, and the los was minimal, so at same bit rate the scaling exercise might come out ahead for using more bits per pixel, while the sharpness of the original material survived.

Hmm, I have noticed both ALR and AT screens gains going down for a while.

Lasalle 06-03-2019 05:57 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Interesting, Kris Deering is now using the same onscreen contrast measurement (1-20% ADL) for his reviews in Sound and Vision.
I believe this a a real step forward in projector reviews.

Lasalle 06-14-2019 12:28 PM

We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger , Ghostbusters (2016). The special effects scenes were better than the UHD copy. The dynamic range of the lasers and glowing ghosts looked like HDR. We are both at the point where we would not choose to view UHD if 3D was an option. This started a discussion on how much better standard blu-ray looked on a high onscreen contrast display than UHD on the current crop of HT projectors. Apart from some reference scenes, it makes me wonder if we are being sold "watered down " HDR. In a way its not surprising. Alot of the initial Atmos and DTS:x mixes are underwhelming, just as they are starting to improve, hopefully, the UHD/HDR releases will follow suit.

Alan Gouger 06-14-2019 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Sharma (Post 58055548)
I can only imagine.
3D is the best way to watch movies provided you can get he OLED punch.

Indeed Ash. With or without the punch I am enjoying 3D.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasalle (Post 58182494)
We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger , Ghostbusters (2016). The special effects scenes were better than the UHD copy. The dynamic range of the lasers and glowing ghosts looked like HDR. We are both at the point where we would not choose to view UHD if 3D was an option. This started a discussion on how much better standard blu-ray looked on a high onscreen contrast display than UHD on the current crop of HT projectors. Apart from some reference scenes, it makes me wonder if we are being sold "watered down " HDR. In a way its not surprising. Alot of the initial Atmos and DTS:x mixes are underwhelming, just as they are starting to improve, hopefully, the UHD/HDR releases will follow suit.

Thanks for having me Brad. There is no other way to watch this than in 3D. You find yourself literally right in the movie dodging green slime and all. The SIM2 handled the neon colors with ease. The Trinnov + Alcons combination + HDR Duo = wow, what a system.

Steve Bruzonsky 06-14-2019 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Gouger (Post 58183346)
Indeed Ash. With or without the punch I am enjoying 3D.




Thanks for having me Brad. There is no other way to watch this than in 3D. You find yourself literally right in the movie dodging green slime and all. The SIM2 handled the neon colors with ease. The Trinnov + Alcons combination + HDR Duo = wow, what a system.

OK. When I visit Mark Burnstein's I am bringing "Baywatch" and other beach fliks!!!! We'll see just how good 3D is. Mark, better get your 3D glasses ready for me!

Alan Gouger 06-14-2019 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky (Post 58183774)
OK. When I visit Mark Burnstein's I am bringing "Baywatch" and other beach fliks!!!! We'll see just how good 3D is. Mark, better get your 3D glasses ready for me!

Steve, I heard you were invading Michigan. Maybe I can stop by and say hello. I've known you remotely for two decades, its about time. We will see.

Steve Bruzonsky 06-14-2019 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Gouger (Post 58183902)
Steve, I heard you were invading Michigan. Maybe I can stop by and say hello. I've known you remotely for two decades, its about time. We will see.

That would be great! I'll let you know when I finalize my plans.:)

Steve Bruzonsky 06-17-2019 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Gouger (Post 58183902)
Steve, I heard you were invading Michigan. Maybe I can stop by and say hello. I've known you remotely for two decades, its about time. We will see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky (Post 58184002)
That would be great! I'll let you know when I finalize my plans.:)

Alan, turns out that thanks to schedules of my sisters in Minneapolis and then Mark Burnstein and his tedious work schedule that I'll first be in Minneapolis and then fly into Detroit August 22 for a few days. Mark said your plans are to be there like two weeks earlier for a day or two. Sounds like we will miss each other (unless your plans change - it would be fun to see you at work on Mark's Sim2 system!).

flyguyjake 08-02-2019 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARROW-AV (Post 58026212)
In fact, the BARCO LOKI has kinda already become long-in-the-tooth given you can now purchase a BARCO SP4K-12 for circa $50,000 which is almost half the price of the BARCO LOKI, and uses the new 0.98" Native 4K resolution 3-Chip DLP chipset, with 4-5 times the native ON/OFF contrast performance, 11,000 lumens light output, and a full RGB laser light source (Red, Green and Blue laser diodes) with reportedly 98.5% coverage of BT.2020 color gamut! It's also $10,000 cheaper than the SIM2 NERO4S DUO

:wink:


I want the SP4K-12 for my HT! Does it have an HDMI input? Can do HDR10? Tone Mapping? Would it work in a HT without a projection booth?

ARROW-AV 08-03-2019 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARROW-AV (Post 57983198)
Hi folks,

Well I just heard some exciting news...

It is looking like SIM2 will have the HDR DUO PLUS on demo at CEDIA 2019 in Denver, which is in only 4 months time in September :)

So, any of fine gentlemen and ladies attending CEDIA this year should hopefully be able to check it out and see what all the fuss is about.

:wink:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky (Post 57984396)
Great news!! Mark Burnstein keeps wanting me to go WAY up to Michigan so I can blow his Sim2 Duo bulbs out (by watching too much video). Now I can see the DUO Plus a cheap and short air hop from Phoenix to [email protected]@@

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reddig (Post 57985582)
Arrow that is in fact wonderful news!! I will be there and will MOST DEFINITELY demo the HDR DUO PLUS. I can't wait!:D

Disappointingly SIM2 will NOT in fact be demoing the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at CEDIA this year. In short, it was too late for them to organize in time this year, so hopefully they will do so at a future trade show.

That said however, I will personally be visiting Florida again very shortly after CEDIA, including to see my good friend @Alan Gouger , and Brad @Lasalle has been kind enough to allow Alan and I to arrange for some of the fine gentlemen and ladies who populate this forum, who are interested, to come an experience the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at his awesome kickass shiny new home theater that also features a Trinnov Alcons audio system to boot, which is located within easy access from Tampa Airport. We are talking circa 3rd or 4th week of September and as soon as I have a definitive date I will be sure to let everyone know.

Folks who are interested in attending please kindly post your interest here. You will get to meet Alan Gouger and myself, as well as of course Brad, and experience the awesomeness of Brad's very high-end home theater. Extreme levels of fun are guaranteed :)

:wink:

ARROW-AV 08-03-2019 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyguyjake (Post 58375946)
I want the SP4K-12 for my HT! Does it have an HDMI input? Can do HDR10? Tone Mapping? Would it work in a HT without a projection booth?

Are you sure?

Whilst the new Barco Series 4 projectors have many advantages they still are afflicted with the same Achilles Heal namely a rubbish black floor, very poor contrast performance with respect to low ADL content and low dynamic range, meaning that the black levels and HDR performance will be terrible. You can't have good HIGH dynamic range (HDR) performance with a projector that is LOW dynamic range. Period.

Whilst the new chipset is a considerable improvement as compared with the existing TI chipsets that have only circa 500 - 800:1 native ON/OFF contrast performance, in itself the contrast and dynamic range performance is still nowhere near good enough. Which is why the likes of what SIM2 has done with the HDR DUO PLUS, namely employ multiple methods in combination to boost contrast and dynamic range performance, is all important

Sorry, but I cannot recommend the new Barco Series 4 projectors for high-end home theater usage.

That said, Barco has a new range of projectors in the pipeline which will be featuring their new patented potentially revolutionary 'Light Steering' technology, which has the potential to significantly increase contrast and dynamic range performance, whilst also consequentially yielding superior HDR performance as well. These are most certainly worth keeping an eye out for. Although the jury is out with respect to what extent this will in reality improve performance; in particular with respect to the peak ON/OFF contrast performance and black floor. Whilst the technology has the potential to increase the low ADL contrast word has it that Barco being Barco are focusing on increasing the luminance dynamic range towards the top end, namely the white level, so it might be the case that the initial range does not exploit the full potential of the technology. I will be evaluating these as and when.

But as of right now if you want the best HDR performance in the world from a projector it's the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS and the shortly to be released CHRISTIE ECLIPSE :)

:wink:

ARROW-AV 08-03-2019 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasalle (Post 58083576)
Nigels new measurements were very revealing regarding on screen contrast that went against the conventional wisdom that on/off was all that mattered.

Credit where credit is due... It was in fact @Soulnight namely Florian and Anna of ProjectionDream who originally developed the measuring of ADL contrast HERE: http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-...-measurements/.

This was/is limited to measuring solely the NATIVE contrast performance, because the corresponding ADL contrast test patterns used do not encapsulate the effects of DYNAMIC contrast functionality with respect to gamma modulation because the test patterns are black and white.

I will take the credit for taking things to the next level by developing the method, including accompanying set of test patterns that incorporate grayscale, which is used to measure (for the first time ever) DYNAMIC contrast throughout the full range of 0% - 50% ADL, following an invaluable conversion with Florian regarding how best to go about doing so.

Consequently, for the first time we are now able to measure the full range of contrast performance including dynamic contrast functionality through the range 0% - 50% ADL wherein video content resides :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasalle (Post 58088114)
I would agree that Kris is a real expert on video. I believe he has been collaborating with Nigel and is starting to use the onscreen contrast test highlighted at the start of this thread... Interesting, Kris Deering is now using the same onscreen contrast measurement (1-20% ADL) for his reviews in Sound and Vision. I believe this a a real step forward in projector reviews.

Yes, and it has been a pleasure working together with Kris with respect to this.

Kris by the way is the one who discovered the importance of taking the additional ON/OFF contrast measurement that replaces the full field black test pattern with single white pixel against full field black for both Native ON/OFF and Dynamic ON/OFF contrast measurements. Logic dictates that with the Native ON/OFF contrast measurements the measurements when using full field black and single white pixel should be the same, because there should be no shutting off of the light engine in response to full field black. However, by adding this measurement Kris discovered that the newer model SONY projectors for example measure lower ON/OFF with the single white pixel when measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast, meaning that there is some jiggery-pokery shutting off of the light engine going on to boost the Native ON/OFF contrast measurement for marketing benefits. In other words, anyone measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast using a full field black test pattern will get an artificially boosted measurement; whereas the true performance is the measurement using the single white pixel, as this defeats the triggering of the partial shutting off of the light engine in response to a full field black video signal. Consequently, I incorporated the single white pixel measurement. And credit for this goes to Kris :)

:wink:


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