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post #211 of 236 Old 05-10-2019, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Well it's lucky that everyone's seating, and all their seating, is not more than 6-8 feet in front of their screen, isn't it?

Oh, wait...



I completely agree. Resolution has taken on a life of its own spurred on by the "more is better" mentality.

If you're in the business and the market is saturated with 4K monitors it's time to put the hype into hyperdrive and push 8K like crazy, whether anyone actually needs it in a home environment or not. It's the nature of the beast.

The trick is to make people want it -- even if they know better.
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post #212 of 236 Old 05-11-2019, 11:55 AM
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Looks like my seating position is right at the beginning of where 8k would be worth it, my second row is in the middle of where 4k is worth it. Hey , it's just me.
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post #213 of 236 Old 05-11-2019, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Looks like my seating position is right at the beginning of where 8k would be worth it, my second row is in the middle of where 4k is worth it. Hey , it's just me.
What about your third row? Where is that with respect to things?

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post #214 of 236 Old 05-11-2019, 07:45 PM
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For 8k to be worth it there will need to be additional visible picture improvement such as HDR has been for 4k. After all won’t the production still be mostly shot in 2k with perhaps in time more shot in 4k?
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post #215 of 236 Old 05-11-2019, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
For 8k to be worth it there will need to be additional visible picture improvement such as HDR has been for 4k. After all won’t the production still be mostly shot in 2k with perhaps in time more shot in 4k?
Currently a lot of films are captured in more than 4K resolution. The bottleneck is partly in editing but mostly special effects. It takes time and serious horsepower to make all the effects shots in 4K or higher. But it can be done. Oh, and not a lot of cinemas have upgraded to 4K. They are still mostly 2K.
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post #216 of 236 Old 05-12-2019, 06:43 AM
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What do you do with 4K HDR sources for this type of setup? Have the Lumagen output 1080p SDR2020?
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post #217 of 236 Old 05-12-2019, 09:14 AM
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What do you do with 4K HDR sources for this type of setup? Have the Lumagen output 1080p SDR2020?
Please see Posts 29-33
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post #218 of 236 Old 05-12-2019, 01:30 PM
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In short, it is a 6000 lumens rated lamp-based projector, which uses the same TI 0.67” 4M-Pixel-Shift Resolution 1-Chip DMD DLP chipset as is found within the entry level OPTOMA and BENQ projectors.
Actually Sim2 has been using Delta platforms also used by Vivitek, as well as Coretronic. BenQ was the only one that had the big first generation 4K XPR Technology Coretronic platform, with a lamp, the original Philips HLD set, and later the blu-laser-phoshor light sourced version. Casio entered the large venue market with its 5000 lumens version. Acer was the first to market with its lamp based version.

In the commecial market both Barco and Christie have been selling 3DMD pixel shifting 4k projectors for a few years now, purely based on cost, same for the smaller single dmd units. But given the price premium in HT buying a commercial native 4K projector might not be that much more expensive. Some are even saying the SRX-R608 is giving the native 4K DLP projectors a good run for their money.

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post #219 of 236 Old 05-12-2019, 01:46 PM
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I dunno, I almost get it and from me it gets an "it's a shame but... meh". Lumagen isn't just about UHD / BD discs, a lot of folk use them with TV boxes etc. At 60p you're not doing 10bit RGB on even 18G HDMI, so is it that much of a limitation? Probably better to use 4:2:2 12 bit for everything (which is what it does). Otherwise you're losing bit depth at 60p to transfer pixels you could have decoded at the other end becasue they weren't unique in the source to start with.

MadVR is coming from a different angle, where PC support for what really is the standard for UHD 4:2:2 has actually been the afterthought. If you're doing 4k60p and in RGB you'll be doing it at 8 bit unless it sports HDMI 2.1...

Of course this particular product is a bit of a special case, as you only need 1080p outputs, but Lumagen haven't allowed for that combo (I think the previous 1080p products did have high bit depth RGB out, I recall seeing a 36bpp RGB option). It might now be a choice and it might be a limitation of the chips used or how they are hooked up, someone would have to ask @jrp .

It's funny to think though; who would have thought we'd care about 1080p projectors in 2019?!
The norm for broadcast 4K is 10 bit 4:2:0, so 60P works on HDMI 2.0a/b's 18 gigabit/s limit. One of the initial chipset developer had 4:2:2 as an option in its set-tops it seeded the market with, but only on the output chip that created it from the 4:2:0 signal, as decoded by its HEVC decoder chip. There is no-one willing to pay the bandwidth cost for going over 10 Bit, all broadcasts are limited to 10 bit 4:2:0, so the TV-boxes users have no use for higher that would not carry over a single link.
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post #220 of 236 Old 05-16-2019, 05:10 AM
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We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger yesterday to dial in the Lumagen Darbee settings for 3D and 2D Blu-ray.
We were able to increase the apparent pop close to HDR levels. One of the movies we used was Everest, my wife hates heights and when we watched it a couple of days ago, she needed a drink to calm her nerves. It turns out Alan has a similar affinity, the 3D scenes were so deep it knocked him off his game as well. I believe Alan is now a full fledged 3D fan.
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post #221 of 236 Old 05-16-2019, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger yesterday to dial in the Lumagen Darbee settings for 3D and 2D Blu-ray.
We were able to increase the apparent pop close to HDR levels. One of the movies we used was Everest, my wife hates heights and when we watched it a couple of days ago, she needed a drink to calm her nerves. It turns out Alan has a similar affinity, the 3D scenes were so deep it knocked him off his game as well. I believe Alan is now a full fledged 3D fan.
Awesome Post - I love 3D on my OLED - but the screen is a Puny 65 inch - can't wait to have higher Lumen projectors out ... or the WALL ...and in your case to be able to get the pop close to HDR - I can only imagine.
3D is the best way to watch movies provided you can get he OLED punch.
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post #222 of 236 Old 05-16-2019, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger yesterday to dial in the Lumagen Darbee settings for 3D and 2D Blu-ray.
We were able to increase the apparent pop close to HDR levels. One of the movies we used was Everest, my wife hates heights and when we watched it a couple of days ago, she needed a drink to calm her nerves. It turns out Alan has a similar affinity, the 3D scenes were so deep it knocked him off his game as well. I believe Alan is now a full fledged 3D fan.
Given that entertainment area, looks like you have plenty to drink handy...
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post #223 of 236 Old 05-16-2019, 07:42 AM
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A fascinating review and marvelous setup. I always appreciate the passion for this hobby at all levels. Question...I'm unclear are the movies normal 1080 bluerays or are the uhd 4k somehow unconverted for the wcg. I'm sure there is also a kaleidoscope in the mix.

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post #224 of 236 Old 05-17-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger yesterday to dial in the Lumagen Darbee settings for 3D and 2D Blu-ray.
We were able to increase the apparent pop close to HDR levels. One of the movies we used was Everest, my wife hates heights and when we watched it a couple of days ago, she needed a drink to calm her nerves. It turns out Alan has a similar affinity, the 3D scenes were so deep it knocked him off his game as well. I believe Alan is now a full fledged 3D fan.
3D is the only way to watch this title, it puts you right in the movie, hanging on the side of the mountain. I do not like heights, Brad had no remorse and turned on the Dbox system. I thought I was on a ride at Universal Studios
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post #225 of 236 Old 05-21-2019, 05:49 PM
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Here's a link to an interesting discussion (with demos) about resolution and just how important (or not) it is once you are using HD or higher sources. Click on the top left and watch "one" and then "two".


http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/ResDemoPt2.html
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post #226 of 236 Old 05-22-2019, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Here's a link to an interesting discussion (with demos) about resolution and just how important (or not) it is once you are using HD or higher sources. Click on the top left and watch "one" and then "two".


http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/ResDemoPt2.html
Excellent post and discussion on Spacial Resolution. Nigels new measurements were very revealing regarding on screen contrast that went against the conventional wisdom that on/off was all that mattered. This piece has a similar revelation on spacial resolution.
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post #227 of 236 Old 05-23-2019, 05:44 AM
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Excellent post and discussion on Spacial Resolution. Nigels new measurements were very revealing regarding on screen contrast that went against the conventional wisdom that on/off was all that mattered. This piece has a similar revelation on spacial resolution.
Apparently the above link was originally posted by Kris Deering, who in my opinion really knows his stuff. I found a reference to the link on another forum and thought it would be useful in understanding this thread -- why a 1080p projector can still be relevant.

Years ago I fed HD (1080p) to a low resolution digital projector, which would accept the HD signal and I was shocked at how good the image looked. This was high resolution material down scaled to a much lower resolution, yet the image looked like a HD image.

Using a 4K player I've played a 4K blu-ray down scaled to 1080p to my display and I think it looks slightly better than normal blu-ray.

I've also a been a big fan of 3D for the last decade or so. I've used Da-lite 2.8 gain High Power screens for years and this screen makes a big difference for opening up 3D and compensating for much of the light lost through the glasses. Bright, cross-talk free 3D is very impressive and can be highly immersive. Most people don't get to see it this way and walk away -- having seen it displayed in a light throttled way I'd also assume it's not worth the effort if I didn't know better.
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post #228 of 236 Old 05-23-2019, 07:27 AM
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Apparently the above link was originally posted by Kris Deering, who in my opinion really knows his stuff. I found a reference to the link on another forum and thought it would be useful in understanding this thread -- why a 1080p projector can still be relevant.

Years ago I fed HD (1080p) to a low resolution digital projector, which would accept the HD signal and I was shocked at how good the image looked. This was high resolution material down scaled to a much lower resolution, yet the image looked like a HD image.

Using a 4K player I've played a 4K blu-ray down scaled to 1080p to my display and I think it looks slightly better than normal blu-ray.

I've also a been a big fan of 3D for the last decade or so. I've used Da-lite 2.8 gain High Power screens for years and this screen makes a big difference for opening up 3D and compensating for much of the light lost through the glasses. Bright, cross-talk free 3D is very impressive and can be highly immersive. Most people don't get to see it this way and walk away -- having seen it displayed in a light throttled way I'd also assume it's not worth the effort if I didn't know better.
I would agree that Kris is a real expert on video. I believe he has been collaborating with Nigel and is starting to use the onscreen contrast test highlighted at the start of this thread. As good as the UHD picture is on the Duo, I have to say almost everyone (including my whole family) prefers the 3D version of the movies. It throws a very bright 3D image on a 13ft wide screen. I've also used the Lumagen Darbee settings to increase the pop. Currently, I have a unigain AT weave screen. The two area's I will keep an eye on for improving the picture :
1) Future development on high quality AT weave(not micro perf) screens with higher gain.
2) Upscalling capabilities to upscale SDR to HDR with metedata and expanding 8bit to 10bit color

I believe these would yield real 3D picture improvement.
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post #229 of 236 Old 05-24-2019, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Apparently the above link was originally posted by Kris Deering, who in my opinion really knows his stuff. I found a reference to the link on another forum and thought it would be useful in understanding this thread -- why a 1080p projector can still be relevant.

Years ago I fed HD (1080p) to a low resolution digital projector, which would accept the HD signal and I was shocked at how good the image looked. This was high resolution material down scaled to a much lower resolution, yet the image looked like a HD image.

Using a 4K player I've played a 4K blu-ray down scaled to 1080p to my display and I think it looks slightly better than normal blu-ray.

I've also a been a big fan of 3D for the last decade or so. I've used Da-lite 2.8 gain High Power screens for years and this screen makes a big difference for opening up 3D and compensating for much of the light lost through the glasses. Bright, cross-talk free 3D is very impressive and can be highly immersive. Most people don't get to see it this way and walk away -- having seen it displayed in a light throttled way I'd also assume it's not worth the effort if I didn't know better.
Yup, when the signal used and the signal captured end at the same point the contrast curve goes down to zero at the highest resolution. If you capture 8K and transmit/display 1080P the contrast at the maximum resolution displayed is much closer to 100%. Examples have been shown in almost every presentation by Mark Schubin. There have also tests to transmit HD as 540P,or 480P or something similar SD like and the let the display show it as HD, and the los was minimal, so at same bit rate the scaling exercise might come out ahead for using more bits per pixel, while the sharpness of the original material survived.

Hmm, I have noticed both ALR and AT screens gains going down for a while.
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post #230 of 236 Old 06-03-2019, 05:57 AM
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Interesting, Kris Deering is now using the same onscreen contrast measurement (1-20% ADL) for his reviews in Sound and Vision.
I believe this a a real step forward in projector reviews.
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post #231 of 236 Old 06-14-2019, 12:28 PM
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We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger , Ghostbusters (2016). The special effects scenes were better than the UHD copy. The dynamic range of the lasers and glowing ghosts looked like HDR. We are both at the point where we would not choose to view UHD if 3D was an option. This started a discussion on how much better standard blu-ray looked on a high onscreen contrast display than UHD on the current crop of HT projectors. Apart from some reference scenes, it makes me wonder if we are being sold "watered down " HDR. In a way its not surprising. Alot of the initial Atmos and DTS:x mixes are underwhelming, just as they are starting to improve, hopefully, the UHD/HDR releases will follow suit.
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post #232 of 236 Old 06-14-2019, 04:14 PM
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I can only imagine.
3D is the best way to watch movies provided you can get he OLED punch.
Indeed Ash. With or without the punch I am enjoying 3D.


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We had another 3D viewing session with @Alan Gouger , Ghostbusters (2016). The special effects scenes were better than the UHD copy. The dynamic range of the lasers and glowing ghosts looked like HDR. We are both at the point where we would not choose to view UHD if 3D was an option. This started a discussion on how much better standard blu-ray looked on a high onscreen contrast display than UHD on the current crop of HT projectors. Apart from some reference scenes, it makes me wonder if we are being sold "watered down " HDR. In a way its not surprising. Alot of the initial Atmos and DTS:x mixes are underwhelming, just as they are starting to improve, hopefully, the UHD/HDR releases will follow suit.
Thanks for having me Brad. There is no other way to watch this than in 3D. You find yourself literally right in the movie dodging green slime and all. The SIM2 handled the neon colors with ease. The Trinnov + Alcons combination + HDR Duo = wow, what a system.
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post #233 of 236 Old 06-14-2019, 06:34 PM
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Indeed Ash. With or without the punch I am enjoying 3D.




Thanks for having me Brad. There is no other way to watch this than in 3D. You find yourself literally right in the movie dodging green slime and all. The SIM2 handled the neon colors with ease. The Trinnov + Alcons combination + HDR Duo = wow, what a system.
OK. When I visit Mark Burnstein's I am bringing "Baywatch" and other beach fliks!!!! We'll see just how good 3D is. Mark, better get your 3D glasses ready for me!

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post #234 of 236 Old 06-14-2019, 07:21 PM
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OK. When I visit Mark Burnstein's I am bringing "Baywatch" and other beach fliks!!!! We'll see just how good 3D is. Mark, better get your 3D glasses ready for me!
Steve, I heard you were invading Michigan. Maybe I can stop by and say hello. I've known you remotely for two decades, its about time. We will see.
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post #235 of 236 Old 06-14-2019, 07:52 PM
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Steve, I heard you were invading Michigan. Maybe I can stop by and say hello. I've known you remotely for two decades, its about time. We will see.
That would be great! I'll let you know when I finalize my plans.
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post #236 of 236 Old 06-17-2019, 02:59 PM
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Steve, I heard you were invading Michigan. Maybe I can stop by and say hello. I've known you remotely for two decades, its about time. We will see.
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That would be great! I'll let you know when I finalize my plans.
Alan, turns out that thanks to schedules of my sisters in Minneapolis and then Mark Burnstein and his tedious work schedule that I'll first be in Minneapolis and then fly into Detroit August 22 for a few days. Mark said your plans are to be there like two weeks earlier for a day or two. Sounds like we will miss each other (unless your plans change - it would be fun to see you at work on Mark's Sim2 system!).

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