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post #241 of 254 Old 08-03-2019, 06:04 AM
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Disappointingly SIM2 will NOT in fact be demoing the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at CEDIA this year. In short, it was too late for them to organize in time this year, so hopefully they will do so at a future trade show.

That said however, I will personally be visiting Florida again very shortly after CEDIA, including to see my good friend @Alan Gouger , and Brad @Lasalle has been kind enough to allow Alan and I to arrange for some of the fine gentlemen and ladies who populate this forum, who are interested, to come an experience the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at his awesome kickass shiny new home theater that also features a Trinnov Alcons audio system to boot, which is located within easy access from Tampa Airport. We are talking circa 3rd or 4th week of September and as soon as I have a definitive date I will be sure to let everyone know.

Folks who are interested in attending please kindly post your interest here. You will get to meet Alan Gouger and myself, as well as of course Brad, and experience the awesomeness of Brad's very high-end home theater. Extreme levels of fun are guaranteed

ARROW-AV,

I would certainly be interested in attending as I live in Lakewood Ranch, Fl. Please keep me posted.

Kim
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post #242 of 254 Old 08-03-2019, 08:06 AM
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Interested. I’m considering replacing a 5 year old Wolf.
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post #243 of 254 Old 08-03-2019, 09:44 AM
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I wish I could be there! But in a few weeks I will be at Mark Burnstein's and see his Sim2 Duo Plus setup, assuming Alan Gouger has made it there by then to tweak it to its full potential!!!

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
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post #244 of 254 Old 08-03-2019, 10:42 AM
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Yes, and it has been a pleasure working together with Kris with respect to this.

Kris by the way is the one who discovered the importance of taking the additional ON/OFF contrast measurement that replaces the full field black test pattern with single white pixel against full field black for both Native ON/OFF and Dynamic ON/OFF contrast measurements. Logic dictates that with the Native ON/OFF contrast measurements the measurements when using full field black and single white pixel should be the same, because there should be no shutting off of the light engine in response to full field black. However, by adding this measurement Kris discovered that the newer model SONY projectors for example measure lower ON/OFF with the single white pixel when measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast, meaning that there is some jiggery-pokery shutting off of the light engine going on to boost the Native ON/OFF contrast measurement for marketing benefits. In other words, anyone measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast using a full field black test pattern will get an artificially boosted measurement; whereas the true performance is the measurement using the single white pixel, as this defeats the triggering of the partial shutting off of the light engine in response to a full field black video signal. Consequently, I incorporated the single white pixel measurement. And credit for this goes to Kris

Did Kris say he discovered this?

He may have used the single white pixel in this application, but TSE told me about this almost a decade ago. Back when VDC first received their LED DLPs, I asked TSE what he thought about their on/off cr performance. He said it was great, because they could shut the LEDs off. He then said to get the true on/off cr one needed to put a single white pixel on the screen to turn on the LEDs. I don't recall if he came up with the idea or if it was someone else at VDC. I know I discussed it with Darin.

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post #245 of 254 Old 08-03-2019, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Did Kris say he discovered this?

He may have used the single white pixel in this application, but TSE told me about this almost a decade ago. Back when VDC first received their LED DLPs, I asked TSE what he thought about their on/off cr performance. He said it was great, because they could shut the LEDs off. He then said to get the true on/off cr one needed to put a single white pixel on the screen to turn on the LEDs. I don't recall if he came up with the idea or if it was someone else at VDC. I know I discussed it with Darin.
Is that with respect to the NATIVE On/Off contrast measurement though? Namely the mode that is not supposed to employ full fade to black or any shutting off of the light engine whatosever in response to a full field black? I am not referring to measuring the PEAK On/Off contrast performance, which will potentially include dynamic contrast functionality and/or fade to black.

Either way, Kris did not claim to discover this; he simply reported that he had discovered the jiggery pokery that the SONY projectors employ to inflate the measured and reported native ON/OFF contrast performance in this regard and I assumed he had been the one to discover it. So if it was someone else prior to this then my bad!


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post #246 of 254 Old 08-03-2019, 07:43 PM
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Is that with respect to the NATIVE On/Off contrast measurement though? Namely the mode that is not supposed to employ full fade to black or any shutting off of the light engine whatosever in response to a full field black? I am not referring to measuring the PEAK On/Off contrast performance, which will potentially include dynamic contrast functionality and/or fade to black.
Yes, it was. Remember this was a decade ago. Still TSE was the first that I know of to say illuminate a single white pixel. Probably pretty obvious now.

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Either way, Kris did not claim to discover this; he simply reported that he had discovered the jiggery pokery that the SONY projectors employ to inflate the measured and reported native ON/OFF contrast performance in this regard and I assumed he had been the one to discover it. So if it was someone else prior to this then my bad!

OK, I just believe in giving credit where credit is due.

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post #247 of 254 Old 08-04-2019, 12:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it was. Remember this was a decade ago. Still TSE was the first that I know of to say illuminate a single white pixel. Probably pretty obvious now.
Well, I wasn't on this forum, a decade ago, so you will have to please excuse me for missing that!

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OK, I just believe in giving credit where credit is due.
So do I, hence the reason for my post

Kris is still the first person who spotted that both the SONY 995/870ES and 885/760ES are using jiggery pokery to artificially inflate the native ON/OFF contrast measurements. So we can give him the credit for discovering that, if not the concept of using single white pixel when measuring native ON/OFF contrast. Or did TSE discover this also?

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post #248 of 254 Old 08-04-2019, 01:38 AM
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An alternative view of Sony's performance on the basis of the single pixel test as I understand it stands (single full brightness pixel?) would be that they've implemented an accurate non-defeatable dynamic dimming system. In such a system, if you want to represent that full white pixel as intended the only option is to not dim the laser. So going from dimmed to not dimmed would be a legitimate choice.

What would be interesting to test that theory additionally would be single pixel tests at levels from 10-90%, seeing if the black floor raises slowly between the levels - or whether the black floor only has two steps (slightly dimmed and not dimmed). Has anyone done that? I'm not sure I recall seeing it if so.

I actually think the above would be a better strategy than JVC use for their dynamic iris / dimming algorithm, as they disregard the gamma curve of the original content on the basis of how many pixels there are on screen above a certain level, leading to all manner of unintended artefacts. I can't use the DI algos because the gamma fiddling is way too obvious to me, but a laser dimming that behaved as described would work be undetectable (though of course can't achieve such high "gains" in contrast - because a single pixel is enough to stop it dimming).
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post #249 of 254 Old 08-06-2019, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Disappointingly SIM2 will NOT in fact be demoing the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at CEDIA this year. In short, it was too late for them to organize in time this year, so hopefully they will do so at a future trade show.

That said however, I will personally be visiting Florida again very shortly after CEDIA, including to see my good friend @Alan Gouger , and Brad @Lasalle has been kind enough to allow Alan and I to arrange for some of the fine gentlemen and ladies who populate this forum, who are interested, to come an experience the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS at his awesome kickass shiny new home theater that also features a Trinnov Alcons audio system to boot, which is located within easy access from Tampa Airport. We are talking circa 3rd or 4th week of September and as soon as I have a definitive date I will be sure to let everyone know.

Folks who are interested in attending please kindly post your interest here. You will get to meet Alan Gouger and myself, as well as of course Brad, and experience the awesomeness of Brad's very high-end home theater. Extreme levels of fun are guaranteed

Thanks for the heads-up @ARROW-AV , that is indeed disappointing. But on the bright side thats one less thing I have to hunt down at the show lol!

That is very kind of Brad! I wish I could make it!
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post #250 of 254 Old 08-06-2019, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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An alternative view of Sony's performance on the basis of the single pixel test as I understand it stands (single full brightness pixel?) would be that they've implemented an accurate non-defeatable dynamic dimming system. In such a system, if you want to represent that full white pixel as intended the only option is to not dim the laser. So going from dimmed to not dimmed would be a legitimate choice.

What would be interesting to test that theory additionally would be single pixel tests at levels from 10-90%, seeing if the black floor raises slowly between the levels - or whether the black floor only has two steps (slightly dimmed and not dimmed). Has anyone done that? I'm not sure I recall seeing it if so.

I actually think the above would be a better strategy than JVC use for their dynamic iris / dimming algorithm, as they disregard the gamma curve of the original content on the basis of how many pixels there are on screen above a certain level, leading to all manner of unintended artefacts. I can't use the DI algos because the gamma fiddling is way too obvious to me, but a laser dimming that behaved as described would work be undetectable (though of course can't achieve such high "gains" in contrast - because a single pixel is enough to stop it dimming).
Sorry but I have to disagree on this one

You are drawing conclusions without actually knowing what the data is. Wherein, the fact of the matter is that the increase in ON/OFF measurement is only slight to the extent that it's probably below the limit of HVP. In other words, nobody will likely be able to actually perceive any difference with respect to performance, but it makes the native ON/OFF contrast measurement appear better on paper. If SONY were to be doing what you say then a more significant difference that actually translates into perceivable difference in performance would be implemented. Wouldn't it? But that is not the situation here.

Furthermore, it is highly convenient that the newer more expensive SONY 995ES measured Native ON/OFF slightly higher than the less expensive pre-existing model 885ES...

**BUT** with single white pixel used for measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast, which reveals the TRUE performance it actually measured slightly lower, as in worse.

Coincidence?

Also, for what it's worth, I have indeed tried using varying grayscale for the single pixel and there is ZERO difference. Whether it is a black or gray pixel the single pixel defeats the partial shutting off of the light engine irrespective of the IRE; and the measurements are the same.

So, the only time that the non-perceivable slight increase in ON/OFF contrast measurement occurs is when measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast using the method that all professional reviewers use, which subsequently will influence the figure that they report in their reviews. With a difference that does not correspond to an actual significant perceivable difference in performance, but looks good on paper.

Hence my conclusion.

So, sorry I am going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one James. It's jiggery pokery for marketing purposes


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post #251 of 254 Old 08-06-2019, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the heads-up @ARROW-AV , that is indeed disappointing. But on the bright side thats one less thing I have to hunt down at the show lol!

That is very kind of Brad! I wish I could make it!
Well, I am still looking forward to meeting you anyway

And yes, it is indeed very kind of Brad!

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post #252 of 254 Old 08-07-2019, 12:13 AM
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Sorry but I have to disagree on this one

You are drawing conclusions without actually knowing what the data is. Wherein, the fact of the matter is that the increase in ON/OFF measurement is only slight to the extent that it's probably below the limit of HVP. In other words, nobody will likely be able to actually perceive any difference with respect to performance, but it makes the native ON/OFF contrast measurement appear better on paper. If SONY were to be doing what you say then a more significant difference that actually translates into perceivable difference in performance would be implemented. Wouldn't it? But that is not the situation here.

Furthermore, it is highly convenient that the newer more expensive SONY 995ES measured Native ON/OFF slightly higher than the less expensive pre-existing model 885ES...

**BUT** with single white pixel used for measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast, which reveals the TRUE performance it actually measured slightly lower, as in worse.

Coincidence?

Also, for what it's worth, I have indeed tried using varying grayscale for the single pixel and there is ZERO difference. Whether it is a black or gray pixel the single pixel defeats the partial shutting off of the light engine irrespective of the IRE; and the measurements are the same.

So, the only time that the non-perceivable slight increase in ON/OFF contrast measurement occurs is when measuring the Native ON/OFF contrast using the method that all professional reviewers use, which subsequently will influence the figure that they report in their reviews. With a difference that does not correspond to an actual significant perceivable difference in performance, but looks good on paper.

Hence my conclusion.

So, sorry I am going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one James. It's jiggery pokery for marketing purposes
If you've done the test then you have result, I hadn't seen single pixel grey results quoted anywhere. The results I saw from Kris for the 995ES vs 885ES were slightly better for the new unit, not worse, so perhaps this is in the noise of sample variation in terms of which has better native.

I'd be hesitant to tar Sony with VW's brush on this as folk reviewing this stuff are smart enough to spot things, and Sony don't actually publish native contrast specs. It is a high risk low gain play. Anyway, we'll never know for sure I guess...

Out of interest, with a typical "black" scene cut frame in a movie freeze framed does this dimming happen? I guess not from what you're saying about the IRE levels (given it would be unusual for the frame to end up completely black after editing and encoding).
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post #253 of 254 Old 08-07-2019, 12:51 AM - Thread Starter
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If you've done the test then you have result, I hadn't seen single pixel grey results quoted anywhere.
That's because I never published that particular data. I carried out the exercise in fact to ascertain whether there was an instance wherein a grayscale pixel did not trigger the partial shutting off of the light engine, so I was carrying out the evaluation and measurements for a different reason, but carried them out nonetheless and like I said there is no difference

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The results I saw from Kris for the 995ES vs 885ES were slightly better for the new unit, not worse, so perhaps this is in the noise of sample variation in terms of which has better native.
The units Kris first measured had the 995ES 1 pixel measurement being slightly worse than the 885ES. He shared the data with me because this was during time wherein I was showing him how to take the full range of ADL contrast measurements and he helped tweak my measurements spreadsheet including adding in the pixel pixel measurement. The latter measurements he subsequently posted has them almost the same with the 995ES at 12,000:1 and 885ES at 10,833:1 for the single pixel, but the Native ON/OFF has the 995ES at 16,400:1 versus the 885ES at 12,381:1 which is a much more 'impressive' difference. Furthermore, Kris' measurements for 1% - 20% ADL are almost identical for both the 995ES and 885ES. The only significant difference is the Native ON/OFF contrast measurement using full field black, which is inflated to make the 995ES appear to have higher Native ON/OFF contrast performance as compared with the 885ES than it actually does in reality.

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I'd be hesitant to tar Sony with VW's brush on this as folk reviewing this stuff are smart enough to spot things, and Sony don't actually publish native contrast specs. It is a high risk low gain play. Anyway, we'll never know for sure I guess...
Firstly, don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE fan of SONY. All of my TVs are SONY and I personally owned a SONY 1100ES projector for 5 years. Secondly, sorry but none of the other reviewers spotted this. And whilst SONY don't actually publish native contrast specs they know most of the reviewers will be doing so. You are right we will never know for sure but is sure is fishy and I don't believe in highly convenient coincidences.

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Out of interest, with a typical "black" scene cut frame in a movie freeze framed does this dimming happen? I guess not from what you're saying about the IRE levels (given it would be unusual for the frame to end up completely black after editing and encoding).
Do you mean a full field black video signal? If so, then yes. In short, in response to a full field black there is this very slight shutting off of the light engine, but with all video content including single pixel there is not.

If this was for performance then it would shut off the light engine more such that a significant improvement in black level is perceived but this is not what happens. The difference whilst measurable, is not really perceivable. Hence why do it? Because it looks good on paper that's why

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post #254 of 254 Old 08-07-2019, 12:20 PM
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Well, I am still looking forward to meeting you anyway

And yes, it is indeed very kind of Brad!


Absolutely @ARROW-AV ! Pardon my manners. I am extremely excited to meet you Nigel as well as others ive chatted with on here. Ill be the big guy with tattoos and Ill more then likely be wearing a Manchester United top as I love Premier League football almost as much as I love home theater and cinema. Its a dead heat actually lol.
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