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post #31 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Differences of opinion can be so tart at times!
If only it were a difference of opinion. But it is not. It's just a nonsense claim that watching emissive displays is somehow fatiguing (compared to front projection) and I called it out and now that's done.
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post #32 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 11:02 AM
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Angry

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If only it were a difference of opinion. But it is not. It's just a nonsense claim that watching emissive displays is somehow fatiguing (compared to front projection) and I called it out and now that's done.
Double tart!

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post #33 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 11:06 AM
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Differences of opinion can be so tart at times! <img src="https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/AVSForum/smilies/tango_face_sad.png" border="0" alt="" title="Frown" class="inlineimg" />
If only it were a difference if opinion. But it is not. It's just a nonsense claim thanks watching emissive displays is somehow fatiguing and I called it out and now we're done.
So your opinion that emissive displays are not fatiguing is a fact and my experience with top of the line displays at home and Sony 5000 calibrated by ken Whitcomb is an opinion . Very scientific . Can you please point to a double blind study that proves your opinion as a fact. Which instrument did you use to measure fatigue and what units did you use ?
Unbelievable
Just like I am stating my experience as an opinion , so ate you . At least I admit it is an opinion
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post #34 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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So your opinion that emissive displays are not fatiguing is a fact and my experience with top of the line displays at home and Sony 5000 calibrated by ken Whitcomb is an opinion . Very scientific . Can you please point to a double blind study that proves your opinion as a fact. Which instrument did you use to measure fatigue and what units did you use ?
Unbelievable
Just like I am stating my experience as an opinion , so ate you . At least I admit it is an opinion
Lol. It's Friday man, go do something fun.

Or... you made the claim, so you post the study to support the assertion. I'm fine with just calling it nonsense (which, of course, is my opinion).
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post #35 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Double tart!
LOL, sure. Sour Patch Kids!!!

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post #36 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mani View Post
So your opinion that emissive displays are not fatiguing is a fact and my experience with top of the line displays at home and Sony 5000 calibrated by ken Whitcomb is an opinion . Very scientific . Can you please point to a double blind study that proves your opinion as a fact. Which instrument did you use to measure fatigue and what units did you use ?
Unbelievable
Just like I am stating my experience as an opinion , so ate you . At least I admit it is an opinion
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Lol. It's Friday man, go to something fun.
Triple Tart!!!

Seriously, we really don't know for sure, do we? How the human eye/brain will react to such a large top of the line display. How some human brains will react? I had a family member who couldn't watch my Sim2 C3X 1080 then 10.5' wide as it bothered her, she liked small regular TVs. Go figure?
Analog records were replaced by cds, now analog records have made a big comeback, cds are dieing, and digital is in! Subjective preferences vary for whatever reasons. Mark, you are only one person, and you are entitled to your opinion. So is Mani. I really don't have an opinion YET but it really won't matter probably as I'll never be able to afford it AND will movie theaters by me in my lifetime have it? Healthy skepticism is ok? And of course watching the technology improve is nifty. Now if Art ever gets one I will start paying even more paying attention.

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post #37 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Triple Tart!!!

Seriously, we really don't know for sure, do we? How the human eye/brain will react to such a large top of the line display. How some human brains will react? I had a family member who couldn't watch my Sim2 C3X 1080 then 10.5' wide as it bothered her, she liked small regular TVs. Go figure?
Analog records were replaced by cds, now analog records have made a big comeback, cds are dieing, and digital is in! Subjective preferences vary for whatever reasons. Mark, you are only one person, and you are entitled to your opinion. So is Mani. I really don't have an opinion YET but it really won't matter probably as I'll never be able to afford it AND will movie theaters by me in my lifetime have it? Healthy skepticism is ok? And of course watching the technology improve is nifty. Now if Art ever gets one I will start paying even more paying attention.
Opinions are glorious!

It's not that I'm entitled to my opinion, presumably everyone is. It's that I worked to form that opinion. Checked out The Wall numerous times. Have 3 projectors and 4 TVs in my home at once. Went to Korea to see a microLED commercial cinema. That's where my opinions come from.

Arrow AV already spelled out why the TV is likely to be more fatiguing. The reasons for it are known and understood. It's not because the light is being reflected instead of emitted from the screen. There's no debate to be had there and entertaining such a debate creates unnecessary superstition.
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post #38 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
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Originally Posted by mani View Post
So your opinion that emissive displays are not fatiguing is a fact and my experience with top of the line displays at home and Sony 5000 calibrated by ken Whitcomb is an opinion . Very scientific . Can you please point to a double blind study that proves your opinion as a fact. Which instrument did you use to measure fatigue and what units did you use ?
Unbelievable
Just like I am stating my experience as an opinion , so ate you . At least I admit it is an opinion
Lol. It's Friday man, go do something fun. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Or... you made the claim, so you post the study to support the assertion. I'm fine with just calling it nonsense (which, of course, is my opinion). [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
So when you can’t point to any evidence , you resort to throwing insults , or as you say opinions . No worries ....
Off to golfing .... happy Friday &#x1f642;
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post #39 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 12:04 PM
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Really .... you are still watching light emitted from the TV screen . You plug LCD monitor in the wall and it acts like a light source .
OK so are you then claiming that you can’t tell the difference between projected image and OLED/LED/plasma display ???
Being able to tell a difference and the cause of said difference being that one is reflected and the other emitted are two different arguments.
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post #40 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 12:19 PM
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We can keep arguing about it till cows come home
Only if you refuse to accept the salient facts / truth of the matter

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So by your logic if emissive display and projector are calibrated to same brightness and parameters , one won’t be able to tell if one is looking at the projected image or an emissive display ??? I can bet you anyone will be able to tell the difference.

The way we perceive projected image and emissive display has a difference that you can’t quantify . It probably will come to personal preference .
As I have already explained, if you have two display devices that are matched and set up and calibrated the same then yes the two images will indeed look identical

However, it is important to note what I have said regarding the devices being MATCHED. This means that the technical performance capabilities need to be the same. You can't calibrate an IPS Panel LCD TV and make it look the same as an OLED TV, because it does not have the same technical performance capabilites. Similarly, you can't calibrate a SONY 5000ES and make it look the same as an OLED TV either; wherein for example the peak contrast ratios, the color gamut coverage, and the peak luminance are completely different. However, there does in fact currently exist one projector which has essentially the same technical performance capabilties as an OLED TV, and guess what? When set up and calibrated properly it looks EXACTLY like an OLED TV!

In short, if both devices have the same technical performance capabilities this would enable you to set up and calibrate both display devices such that they look the same.

And here's the key point you are missing, whether the devices are emissive or reflective IS IRRELEVANT.

When you are comparing your projector versus your TV you are comparing two devices with completely different technical performance capabilities, which are probably not calibrated either, and with different settings. This is about as much of an Apples vs Oranges comparison as you can get. Consequently, the difference that you are seeing, which is the root cause of your personal preference, is due to a combination of the different technical performance capabilties plus different calibration and settings. It has NOTHING to do with the fact one is an emissive video display and the other is not.

Furthermore, regarding TVs in their own right, as I have already said, if you are finding a TV to be eye fatiguing in any regard whatsoever then this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact it is an emissive display, but because the TV is not setup and calibrated properly, including with respect to your particular environment. Seriously, attend an Imaging Science Foundation (ISF) or Professional Video Alliance professional video calibrating training course and you will be told this on DAY ONE.

You are just plain wrong about this, sorry! In short, the science does not agree with you!

But if you want to (incorrectly) believe that all emissive displays cause eye fatigue due to being emissive, then please by all means go right ahead

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post #41 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 02:20 PM
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For an amusing coincidence Peter (he who’s name shall not be mentioned) was at INFOCOMM yesterday and today. He spent a fair amount time with the Samsung Wall, he said it gave him eye fatigue
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post #42 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 05:42 PM
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For an amusing coincidence Peter (he who’s name shall not be mentioned) was at INFOCOMM yesterday and today. He spent a fair amount time with the Samsung Wall, he said it gave him eye fatigue [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG] [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
Hi Brad

That’s what happen when you spend too much time with a “wall” &#x1f600;
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post #43 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 06:31 PM
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Opinions are glorious!

It's not that I'm entitled to my opinion, presumably everyone is. It's that I worked to form that opinion. Checked out The Wall numerous times. Have 3 projectors and 4 TVs in my home at once. Went to Korea to see a microLED commercial cinema. That's where my opinions come from.

Arrow AV already spelled out why the TV is likely to be more fatiguing. The reasons for it are known and understood. It's not because the light is being reflected instead of emitted from the screen. There's no debate to be had there and entertaining such a debate creates unnecessary superstition.
You "worked". On what - being "tart". Lets get off our political hatchets and respect each other.

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post #44 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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You "worked". On what - being "tart". Lets get off our political hatchets and respect each other.
We're not talking politics. This is AV!!! Also yes I enjoy being a bit tangy! Anyhow it does happen to be my thread so I will call out nonsense and I am OCD to boot. Sour OCD!!! Sounds like a beer, right? Lol

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post #45 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 06:48 PM
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Opinions are glorious!

It's not that I'm entitled to my opinion, presumably everyone is. It's that I worked to form that opinion. Checked out The Wall numerous times. Have 3 projectors and 4 TVs in my home at once. Went to Korea to see a microLED commercial cinema. That's where my opinions come from.

Arrow AV already spelled out why the TV is likely to be more fatiguing. The reasons for it are known and understood. It's not because the light is being reflected instead of emitted from the screen. There's no debate to be had there and entertaining such a debate creates unnecessary superstition.
You "worked". On what - being "tart". Lets get off our political hatchets and respect each other. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

Hi I magic ..
“ that’s where my opinions come from “ is the key sentence in your post . It for some reason you feel carried more value than anyone else’ opinion is baseless unless you provide some concrete and reproducible evidence . Human retina and brain can perceive things magnitudes of order more than can be reproduced or be measured by any known equipment . That was my whole humble assertion . And I do have enough expertise in that area .
All good speakers have same flat freq response but they still sound different ( even if you correct the impulse response etc ) . We can see a perfect black in bright noon ( where sun throws about 10000 lumens per sq foot ) and still see faintest stars out of city night sky and can see way more colors than rec2020 or P3 . And the signals sent by retina to brain are sent to various areas of the brain including memory area to process the image and how that determines how we perceive it . That of course depends on your memories over the years which are stored in your brain . One should read what our senses and brain is capable of and be humbled by it instead of being adamant about some basic ISF certified measurements .
Besides that nothing more to add here . Just like Floyd Toole’s psychoacoustics book , there is literature available for everyone to read about neuroopthalmology and image processing by our brain and everyone can form their own opinion .

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post #46 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi I magic ..
“ that’s where my opinions come from “ is the key sentence in your post . It for some reason you feel carried more value than anyone else’ opinion is baseless unless you provide some concrete and reproducible evidence . Human retina and brain can perceive things magnitudes of order more than can be reproduced or be measured by any known equipment . That was my whole humble assertion . And I do have enough expertise in that area .
All good speakers have same flat freq response but they still sound different ( even if you correct the impulse response etc ) . We can see a perfect black in bright noon ( where sun throws about 10000 lumens per sq foot ) and still see faintest stars out of city night sky and can see way more colors than rec2020 or P3 . And the signals sent by retina to brain are sent to various areas of the brain including memory area to process the image and how that determines how we perceive it . That of course depends on your memories over the years which are stored in your brain . One should read what our senses and brain is capable of and be humbled by it instead of being adamant about some basic ISF certified measurements .
Besides that nothing more to add here . Just like Floyd Toole’s psychoacoustics book , there is literature available for everyone to read about neuroopthalmology and image processing by our brain and everyone can form their own opinion .
As far as this thread is concerned you are the king of unsubstantiated claims. It's on you to provide the evidence to support these specious assertions of yours, if you feel like putting in the effort. For example how far beyond rec.2020 do you think human vision extends? Anyone can look on Wikipedia, it's over 75%. And the colors it does not cover are rarely seen. Please! Be serious here.

Also, cameras beat eyes. That's a fact. Axiomatic. Telescopes etc.

Nonsense.

It's not on me to prove anything because I did not make any false claims. Also, Arrow AV took care of it quite thoroughly in several posts, if you bothered to read them.

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post #47 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 07:22 PM
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Hi I magic ..
“ that’s where my opinions come from “ is the key sentence in your post . It for some reason you feel carried more value than anyone else’ opinion is baseless unless you provide some concrete and reproducible evidence . Human retina and brain can perceive things magnitudes of order more than can be reproduced or be measured by any known equipment . That was my whole humble assertion . And I do have enough expertise in that area .
All good speakers have same flat freq response but they still sound different ( even if you correct the impulse response etc ) . We can see a perfect black in bright noon ( where sun throws about 10000 lumens per sq foot ) and still see faintest stars out of city night sky and can see way more colors than rec2020 or P3 . And the signals sent by retina to brain are sent to various areas of the brain including memory area to process the image and how that determines how we perceive it . That of course depends on your memories over the years which are stored in your brain . One should read what our senses and brain is capable of and be humbled by it instead of being adamant about some basic ISF certified measurements .
Besides that nothing more to add here . Just like Floyd Toole’s psychoacoustics book , there is literature available for everyone to read about neuroopthalmology and image processing by our brain and everyone can form their own opinion .
As far as this thread is concerned you are the king of unsubstantiated claims. It's on you to provide the evidence to support these specious assertions of yours, if you feel like putting in the effort. For example how far beyond rec.2020 do you think human vision extends? Please. Be serious. Also, cameras beat eyes. That's a fact. Axiomatic. Telescopes etc.

Nonsense.


It's not on me to prove anything because I did not make any false claims. Also, Arrow AV took care of it quite thoroughly in several posts, if you bothered to read them.
Cameras beat eyes
Really ... in critical viewing area of retina there are 150000 cones per square mm
When you stand on a summit looking at 160 deg view of Yosemite park or stand on rim of Grand Canyon please let me know which camera can reproduce that image .
Anyway as they say ignorance is a bliss ...
Please I concede , it is your thread , you win ....
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post #48 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Cameras beat eyes
Really ... in critical viewing area of retina there are 150000 cones per square mm
When you stand on a summit looking at 160 deg view of Yosemite park or stand on rim of Grand Canyon please let me know which camera can reproduce that image .
Anyway as they say ignorance is a bliss ...
Please I concede , it your thread , you win ....
Yes there are cameras that beat human vision in field of view, dynamic range and resolution. That's undeniable.

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post #49 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 07:36 PM
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Cameras beat eyes
Really ... in critical viewing area of retina there are 150000 cones per square mm
When you stand on a summit looking at 160 deg view of Yosemite park or stand on rim of Grand Canyon please let me know which camera can reproduce that image .
Anyway as they say ignorance is a bliss ...
Please I concede , it your thread , you win ....
Yes there are cameras that beat human vision in field of view, dynamic range and resolution. That's undeniable.
In a CIE chart/diagram , I assume you don’t know that the outermost area ( the widest area of color gamut ) is what we can see , all the triangles describing , 709 , P3 , or 2020 etc are fraction/ subset of that space . It obviously shows you don’t even have understanding of basic ISF concepts , so there is no point arguing about complex human neurology .

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post #50 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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In a CIE chart/diagram , I assume you don’t know that the outermost area ( the widest area of color gamut ) if what we can see , all the triangles describing , etc 709 , P3 , or 2020 are fraction/ subset of that space . It obviously shows you don’t even have understanding of basic ISF concepts , so there is no point arguing about complex human neurology .
Cool, then we are done. Sorry to hear you find TVs fatiguing.

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post #51 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 07:59 PM
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Mark, so you started this thread and this makes you King to tell us who is wrong or stupid?

Too bad you don't know who you are arguing with. Mani is quite humble. Years of school, Medical Doctor, well respected Pediatric Nephrologist (kidney surgeon). Mani researches stuff to at and well understand the medical journals and forms his opinions very carefully.

Me, I'm just a retired lawyer, but perhaps a bit more polite than some.

Mark, certainly you are entitled to your opinion regarding what you prefer, and what features are available in products you write about here at AVS Forum.
Too bad when I moderated the AVS Special Guests Forum 1999-2003 here I didn't get paid for doing it. But I do say you do a great job! But we all need to be respectful of other's opinions and disagree hopefully more politely.

I'm not saying I necessaryily agree with Mani. But I do respect his person and opinions, and if anyone here has education and experience to be justified to have opinions Mani does.

But go ahead, Mark, get in the "last" word again, I know it will help you feel better. I am done here. But thanks for discussing these panels too expensive for almost all of us to ever afford - who knows at what point they may become practical and affordable for us high enders here at AVS. Hopefully before I fade away from retirement into the beyond!
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post #52 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 08:03 PM
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Some photo's of 'The Wall' at infocom in Orlando earlier today, unfortunately I only had an iphone 7 with me.


Its staggering how bright this thing gets. The display is simply stunning.


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post #53 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Mark, so you started this thread and this makes you King to tell us who is wrong or stupid?

Too bad you don't know who you are arguing with. Mani is quite humble. Years of school, Medical Doctor, well respected Pediatric Nephrologist (kidney surgeon). Mani researches stuff to at and well understand the medical journals and forms his opinions very carefully.

Me, I'm just a retired lawyer, but perhaps a bit more polite than some.

Mark, certainly you are entitled to your opinion regarding what you prefer, and what features are available in products you write about here at AVS Forum.
Too bad when I moderated the AVS Special Guests Forum 1999-2003 here I didn't get paid for doing it. But I do say you do a great job! But we all need to be respectful of other's opinions and disagree hopefully more politely.

I'm not saying I necessaryily agree with Mani. But I do respect his person and opinions, and if anyone here has education and experience to be justified to have opinions Mani does.

But go ahead, Mark, get in the "last" word again, I know it will help you feel better. I am done here. But thanks for discussing these panels too expensive for almost all of us to ever afford - who knows at what point they may become practical and affordable for us high enders here at AVS. Hopefully before I fade away from retirement into the beyond!
I'm not proud of how I dealt with this but what's done is done. Sorry all.

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post #54 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Mark, so you started this thread and this makes you King to tell us who is wrong or stupid?

Too bad you don't know who you are arguing with. Mani is quite humble. Years of school, Medical Doctor, well respected Pediatric Nephrologist (kidney surgeon). Mani researches stuff to at and well understand the medical journals and forms his opinions very carefully.

Me, I'm just a retired lawyer, but perhaps a bit more polite than some.

Mark, certainly you are entitled to your opinion regarding what you prefer, and what features are available in products you write about here at AVS Forum.
Too bad when I moderated the AVS Special Guests Forum 1999-2003 here I didn't get paid for doing it. But I do say you do a great job! But we all need to be respectful of other's opinions and disagree hopefully more politely.

I'm not saying I necessaryily agree with Mani. But I do respect his person and opinions, and if anyone here has education and experience to be justified to have opinions Mani does.

But go ahead, Mark, get in the "last" word again, I know it will help you feel better. I am done here. But thanks for discussing these panels too expensive for almost all of us to ever afford - who knows at what point they may become practical and affordable for us high enders here at AVS. Hopefully before I fade away from retirement into the beyond!
I'm not proud of how I dealt with this but what's done is done. Sorry all.
I apologize as well Mark
I know we get too impassioned here sometimes . I never said that Samsung wall is not a good product . My whole thing was about us older guys with their memories of projected image .
Anyways let the thread come back to the product and the topic .
Cheers
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post #55 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 08:15 PM
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For an amusing coincidence Peter (he who’s name shall not be mentioned) was at INFOCOMM yesterday and today. He spent a fair amount time with the Samsung Wall, he said it gave him eye fatigue

I can see where that could be the case, its almost too bright to watch in a darkened room.

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post #56 of 131 Old 06-14-2019, 09:36 PM
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I'm not proud of how I dealt with this but what's done is done. Sorry all.
Mark, you are a good guy! No one ever says they are sorry here on this forum and that they could have dealt with something better. Few people do this in real life, too. So now you have earned my respect in ways most folks have not. Thanks.
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post #57 of 131 Old 06-15-2019, 01:04 AM
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Some photo's of 'The Wall' at infocom in Orlando earlier today, unfortunately I only had an iphone 7 with me.

Its staggering how bright this thing gets. The display is simply stunning.
Looks very nice doesn't it?

Is that the 146" 4K 4x4 panel iteration?

Did SONY and/or LG have their modular video all offerings on demo at InfoComm as well?


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post #58 of 131 Old 06-15-2019, 01:36 AM
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For an amusing coincidence Peter (he who’s name shall not be mentioned) was at INFOCOMM yesterday and today. He spent a fair amount time with the Samsung Wall, he said it gave him eye fatigue
Sorry to say but that's a rather unhelpful and misleading post that only serves to add further confusion to the situation. Please don't fuel the nonsense that's been banded about in this thread regarding emissive displays being eye fatiguing because they are emissive

The fact of the matter is that at ALL of these trade shows emissive displays typically won't be calibrated properly; furthermore, manufacturers like to jack everything to the max, and the grayscale will have a blue push, because they believe this makes the display look 'more impressive' and 'attention grabbing' with respect to passers by. This is referred to within the industry as 'Retail Mode' and in fact consumer TVs will typically be deliberately factory set like this out of the box to appease retailers

I can pretty much guarantee that in addition to this the bright highlights are clipping and/or shadow detail is being crushed, and overall colors are clipping as well. But most importantly absolutely no way will the white level be properly set to professional video calibration guidelines for the particular environment. It will be much too high, and this will be the predominant reason why the display induces eye fatigue. In short, it's not been setup or calibrated properly!

Most people of the general public viewing this however probably won't notice as they won't know what to look for; and the display will still look good nonetheless. But it is a shame because it would actually look even better if calibrated properly. Professional video calibrators like myself will spot this a mile away. And as it happens this has been the case every single time that I have seen The Wall so far at a trade show and pretty much every single new TV on demo as well. I acually find it very annoying because it makes it impossible to judge what is the best possible video performance of such new devices and I have to wait until I have hands-on time with such devices within a controlled environment in order to do so.

So, unfortunately for these reasons you cannot typically properly judge what is the optimum performance of a video display device based upon how it looks at a trade show

By the way, you forgot to mention that Peter has also commented repeatedly that your projector gives him eye fatigue as well!!!

I feel the need to repeat that in ANY and EVERY circumstance wherein an emissive display induces ANY eye fatigue WHATSOEVER then this simply means that the display has not been set up or calibrated properly. END OF STORY. It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact it is emissive

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Last edited by ARROW-AV; 06-15-2019 at 03:21 AM.
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post #59 of 131 Old 06-15-2019, 05:13 AM
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I can see where that could be the case, its almost too bright to watch in a darkened room.
It's like having a sports car you don't need to use all the HP but if you so desire...

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post #60 of 131 Old 06-15-2019, 09:59 AM
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Did SONY and/or LG have their modular video all offerings on demo at InfoComm as well?


Didn't see the LG display, shame really as I would have liked to have checked out their rollable TV.


Sony did have their very impressive 'Crystal LED' at the show. Not sure of the exact size but what they had on show looked twice as big as the 'The wall'. Sony were running a Grand Turismo demo which looked awesome.
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