Samsung Introduces The Wall Luxury - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 131 Old 06-15-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
Didn't see the LG display, shame really as I would have liked to have checked out their rollable TV.

Sony did have their very impressive 'Crystal LED' at the show. Not sure of the exact size but what they had on show looked twice as big as the 'The wall'. Sony were running a Grand Turismo demo which looked awesome.
This is LG's modular video wall product. It's the same pixel pitch size as SONY's Crystal LED

Now we just need to get the popcorn ready and watch SAMSUNG, SONY, and LG slug it out... hopefully won't be too long before the prices start to come down






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post #62 of 131 Old 06-15-2019, 01:58 PM
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By the way, you forgot to mention that Peter has also commented repeatedly that your projector gives him eye fatigue as well!!!

Well, given how much you like the Wall, that speaks well for the Sim2 I was actually at the Duo viewing session where Peter had his "ocular spasm".
It was about 2 years ago while Alan was developing his custom gamma curves, he was trying to max out contrast and HDR (pre DTM days) in that session.
He was projecting on a high gain 8 foot screen, both filters out, lamps at max and several other setting cranked. It was very bright. Alan and I were nearer the back of his theater, Peter (being Peter) was in the front row to get the max effect. After about 15 min Peter started doing his version of the funky chicken and had to leave. Alan dropped the filters back in, lowered the lamp settings and Peter was fine.

I was supposed drive out to Infocomm and see Peter and the Alcon team but had to cancel at the last minute. When I called Peter to tell him he mentioned his viewing experience with the Wall. I remembered seeing this thread but had not read it. When I read it a saw the banter, I had to laugh and throw some fuel (petrol) on the fire. I'm sure the Wall was setup like a Samsung TV on a Best Buy show room floor. The difference is it has enough nits to do some damage.

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post #63 of 131 Old 06-15-2019, 02:46 PM
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Well, given how much you like the Wall, that speaks well for the Sim2 I was actually at the Duo viewing session where Peter had his "ocular spasm".
It was about 2 years ago while Alan was developing his custom gamma curves, he was trying to max out contrast and HDR (pre DTM days) in that session.
He was projecting on a high gain 8 foot screen, both filters out, lamps at max and several other setting cranked. It was very bright. Alan and I were nearer the back of his theater, Peter (being Peter) was in the front row to get the max effect. After about 15 min Peter started doing his version of the funky chicken and had to leave. Alan dropped the filters back in, lowered the lamp settings and Peter was fine.

I was supposed drive out to Infocomm and see Peter and the Alcon team but had to cancel at the last minute. When I called Peter to tell him he mentioned his viewing experience with the Wall. I remembered seeing this but had not read it. When I read it a saw the banter, I had to laugh and throw some fuel (petrol) on the fire. I'm sure the Wall was setup like a Samsung TV on a Best Buy show room floor. The difference is it has enough nits to do some damage.
Take a bright LCD TV like the SONY ZD9/Z9D, situate it within a darkened room, then jack the white level luminance to maximum, increase the color saturation setting by +5, boost the blue, and crank up the contrast setting, and this is pretty much how SAMSUNG are demoing The Wall at these various trade shows

The way that SONY are demoing their Crystal LED at the trade shows is better because it is situated on a wall in the open show floor so in a high ambient light level environment.

One exception was at CinemaCon a couple of years ago when SONY demoed the Crystal LED within a blacked out room and actually made an effort to set it up and calibrate it properly. This is the only time I have seen one of these new modular video walls demoed properly and suffice to say the image was absolutely incredible. And I know that The Wall can look just as good. It's just a shame that they aren't demoing them like this all the time. I actually think they are somewhat shooting themselves in the foot from a marketing perspective because some folks will find the eye searing brightness to be off putting.

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post #64 of 131 Old 06-16-2019, 03:52 AM
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Looks very nice doesn't it?

Is that the 146" 4K 4x4 panel iteration?

Did SONY and/or LG have their modular video all offerings on demo at InfoComm as well?

LG was previewing its Microled, thats what it promoted ahead of the show, no mention of SMD LED, but lots of LCD.

This is Infocomm, not Cinemacon. So expect the product to be marketed to installation, corporate and large event markets, not Cinema, private or public.

But what is wrong with observing and noting that a particular demo provides one some discomfort. That doesn't necessarily dismiss a technology, nor implementation of a technology.

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post #65 of 131 Old 06-16-2019, 04:16 AM
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Only if you refuse to accept the salient facts / truth of the matter


As I have already explained, if you have two display devices that are matched and set up and calibrated the same then yes the two images will indeed look identical

However, it is important to note what I have said regarding the devices being MATCHED. This means that the technical performance capabilities need to be the same. You can't calibrate an IPS Panel LCD TV and make it look the same as an OLED TV, because it does not have the same technical performance capabilites. Similarly, you can't calibrate a SONY 5000ES and make it look the same as an OLED TV either; wherein for example the peak contrast ratios, the color gamut coverage, and the peak luminance are completely different. However, there does in fact currently exist one projector which has essentially the same technical performance capabilties as an OLED TV, and guess what? When set up and calibrated properly it looks EXACTLY like an OLED TV!

In short, if both devices have the same technical performance capabilities this would enable you to set up and calibrate both display devices such that they look the same.

And here's the key point you are missing, whether the devices are emissive or reflective IS IRRELEVANT.

When you are comparing your projector versus your TV you are comparing two devices with completely different technical performance capabilities, which are probably not calibrated either, and with different settings. This is about as much of an Apples vs Oranges comparison as you can get. Consequently, the difference that you are seeing, which is the root cause of your personal preference, is due to a combination of the different technical performance capabilties plus different calibration and settings. It has NOTHING to do with the fact one is an emissive video display and the other is not.

Furthermore, regarding TVs in their own right, as I have already said, if you are finding a TV to be eye fatiguing in any regard whatsoever then this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact it is an emissive display, but because the TV is not setup and calibrated properly, including with respect to your particular environment. Seriously, attend an Imaging Science Foundation (ISF) or Professional Video Alliance professional video calibrating training course and you will be told this on DAY ONE.

You are just plain wrong about this, sorry! In short, the science does not agree with you!

But if you want to (incorrectly) believe that all emissive displays cause eye fatigue due to being emissive, then please by all means go right ahead


The head honcho's of ISF do promote subjective matching calibration of LCD and OLEDs:

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post #66 of 131 Old 06-16-2019, 04:32 AM
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The head honcho's of ISF do promote subjective matching calibration of LCD and OLEDs:

https://youtu.be/KXBShiMYO88?t=4402
Incorrect. It is IMPOSSIBLE to calibrate both LCD and OLED to reference and have them 100% matched and hence identical, because the technical performance parameters differ significantly. What they are talking about here is simply achieving the closest match possible in spite of the significant video performance differences:

"What Joel was talking about with respect to the spectral response of different displays… where they are very very different between OLED and LCD… the object is that we need to try and get these to match as closely as possible"

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post #67 of 131 Old 06-16-2019, 04:37 AM
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LG was previewing its Microled, thats what it promoted ahead of the show, no mention of SMD LED, but lots of LCD.

This is Infocomm, not Cinemacon. So expect the product to be marketed to installation, corporate and large event markets, not Cinema, private or public.

But what is wrong with observing and noting that a particular demo provides one some discomfort. That doesn't necessarily dismiss a technology, nor implementation of a technology.
Donald, go back and read through this thread properly. The issue is the nonsense statement that all emissive displays are eye fatiguing because they are emissive and that projectors are not eye fatiguing because they are not emissive but reflective. Wherein, whether or not a video display is emissive or not has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with eye fatigue; it is simply whether or not the particular display is setup and calibrated properly. ALL video displays whether emissive or reflective if set up and not calibrated / calibrated incorrectly can induce eye fatigue, especially if the white level luminance and hence ADL is calibrated incorrectly. Similarly, neither emissive nor projected video displays will have any eye fatigue whatsoever if setup and calibrated properly

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post #68 of 131 Old 06-16-2019, 04:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Donald, go back and read through this thread properly. The issue is the nonsense statement that all emissive displays are eye fatiguing because they are emissive and that projectors are not eye fatiguing because they are not emissive but reflective. Wherein, whether or not a video display is emissive or not has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with eye fatigue; it is simply whether or not the particular display is setup and calibrated properly. ALL video displays whether emissive or reflective if set up and not calibrated / calibrated incorrectly can induce eye fatigue, especially if the white level luminance and hence ADL is calibrated incorrectly. Similarly, neither emissive nor projected video displays will have any eye fatigue whatsoever if setup and calibrated properly

I'm quoting this because it's worth repeating and packed with accurate information.

On a separate note, almost every day I look at either a TV or a projected image for the entire day; I have a motorized screen that can drop down in front of the TV. The reason for this is because I use either projector or TV with my PC. I'm using a TV right now. So, from personal experience, I know that I experience no fundamental difference in fatigue between reflective and emissive, and for that matter reflective and transmissive display technologies, again with the caveat that they are calibrated to similar levels of brightness, etc.

On a related note, when people see a projected image that concurrently has really high contrast and a really bright peak luminance, the typical observation is that it looks like a TV.
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post #69 of 131 Old 06-16-2019, 05:47 AM
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It should have been:

2K @ 36.5" --> kitchen/bathroom TV (probably $20,000)
4K @ 73" --> Bedroom TV ($80,000)
8K @ 146" --> living room TV ($240,000)
16K @ 292" --> Cinema TV ($960,000)
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post #70 of 131 Old 06-16-2019, 05:53 AM
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On a related note, when people see a projected image that concurrently has really high contrast and a really bright peak luminance, the typical observation is that it looks like a TV.
I'll take one in 4K, please.

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post #71 of 131 Old 06-16-2019, 08:30 AM
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For an amusing coincidence Peter (he who’s name shall not be mentioned) was at INFOCOMM yesterday and today. He spent a fair amount time with the Samsung Wall, he said it gave him eye fatigue
If he was pixel peeping like some like to do with projectors, then yes, I am not surprised!

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.
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Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
some photo's of 'the wall' at infocom in orlando earlier today, unfortunately i only had an iphone 7 with me.


Its staggering how bright this thing gets. The display is simply stunning.
Want!

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
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post #73 of 131 Old 06-16-2019, 08:37 AM
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But we all need to be respectful of other's opinions and disagree hopefully more politely.
Well said!

I find myself saying the same thing a lot more these days on here too. It really is not hard to be civil in our discourse and respect others views even if one fervently disagrees.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
Stephen Hawking.
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post #74 of 131 Old 06-17-2019, 05:05 PM
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"... However, there does in fact currently exist one projector which has essentially the same technical performance capabilties as an OLED TV, and guess what? When set up and calibrated properly it looks EXACTLY like an OLED TV!..."

Would you mind telling someone who knows pretty much nothing about projectors which projector you are referring to?

Thanks!!

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post #75 of 131 Old 06-17-2019, 05:22 PM
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The real question I have...Is Warner Bros. ever going to release Pink Floyd: The Wall on Blu so I can fulfill a just-now realized dream of watching The Wall on The Wall?
DeadEd and chirpie like this.
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post #76 of 131 Old 06-17-2019, 05:35 PM
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"... However, there does in fact currently exist one projector which has essentially the same technical performance capabilties as an OLED TV, and guess what? When set up and calibrated properly it looks EXACTLY like an OLED TV!..."

Would you mind telling someone who knows pretty much nothing about projectors which projector you are referring to?

Thanks!!
The Christie Large Venue. Nigel and I saw it in October at their plant in Canada. Projected onto an 18' wide screen.

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post #77 of 131 Old 06-17-2019, 06:36 PM
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The Christie Large Venue. Nigel and I saw it in October at their plant in Canada. Projected onto an 18' wide screen.

Art
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post #78 of 131 Old 06-17-2019, 06:37 PM
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Ok, I am going to be the real jerk hear. Hear goes. Transistor amps are the best and tube amps suck! Ok everybody- GO😂. Actually I like having different opinions voiced and considered. As long as we all understand that everyone on the forum should have one and aught to be able to voice it. It's a bit like arguing over wine, everybody likes it, they just like different kinds.
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post #79 of 131 Old 06-17-2019, 06:40 PM
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I'm not optimistic about this technology ever being affordable for a home theater. It will remain in the realm of theater in a home.

Media: LG 77" OLED 4K C8 / Denon AVR-X8500H 7.1.4 / Oppo UDP-203 / Nvidia SHIELD (2017) / Apple TV 4K / Sony 4K FMP-X10 / Gaming PC (Threadripper 1950X / 2x GeForce GTX 1080 Ti SLI) / PlayStation 4 Pro with PS VR / PlayStation (original) - Family: Sony 85" 4K XBR-85X900F / Denon AVR-X3400H 5.1 / Nvidia SHIELD (2017) / Apple TV 4K / C64 Mini - Game: Hisense 55" 4K 55H8C / Denon AVR-X3400H 5.1 / Nvidia SHIELD (2017) / Apple TV 4K
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post #80 of 131 Old 06-17-2019, 10:19 PM
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There have been a lot of technical articles lately about the production of these "MicroLED" panels. Specifically with regards to breakthroughs and advancements with the mass transfer of the LED onto the display.



But none of them gave me a warm fuzzy that it's happening anytime soon to cause a cascade effect in price reductions. The rates they were quoting were still quite inefficient.



I'd have to guesstimate on the order of 5-10 years before we see this tech come down from stratospheric levels and is available at brick and mortar stores at consumer prices.
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post #81 of 131 Old 06-18-2019, 01:01 AM
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Wherein I have even designed, built, and tested an audio system solution to the problem with respect to having a gigantic non-acoustically-transparent highly-acoustically-reflective panel covering the most of your home theater's front wall, but with zero compromise with respect to the audio quality. SAMSUNG themselves even flew in from Korea to audition this.
I am late to the party here, but I find this claim quite extra ordinary. Zero compromise? Really? Compared to what? I think most people will find the audio in Wall installations good enough, because of the overwhelming picture and vision dominating hearing in how the brain processes information. But I have yet to be convinced that your audio solution has zero comprimise compared to the best audio installations out there. But who knows, maybe you are right.


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All good speakers have same flat freq response but they still sound different ( even if you correct the impulse response etc ) .
I see you guys have moved on, but this claim is simply wrong. If you measure a speaker in one point in a three dimensional space that will of course not paint the whole picture. But if two speakers measures the same with a complete set of measurements (on and off axis horisontal and vertical, csd, impulse response, compression, thd etc) then they will sound the same. I highly doubt you will find these two speakers though, unless they are exactly the same.

I am more into audio than video, so my greatest concerns about these walls is audio performance (in addition to price, of course.)
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post #82 of 131 Old 06-18-2019, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post

Wherein I have even designed, built, and tested an audio system solution to the problem with respect to having a gigantic non-acoustically-transparent highly-acoustically-reflective panel covering the most of your home theater's front wall, but with zero compromise with respect to the audio quality. SAMSUNG themselves even flew in from Korea to audition this.
I am late to the party here, but I find this claim quite extra ordinary. Zero compromise? Really? Compared to what? I think most people will find the audio in Wall installations good enough, because of the overwhelming picture and vision dominating hearing in how the brain processes information. But I have yet to be convinced that your audio solution has zero comprimise compared to the best audio installations out there. But who knows, maybe you are right.


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All good speakers have same flat freq response but they still sound different ( even if you correct the impulse response etc ) .
I see you guys have moved on, but this claim is simply wrong. If you measure a speaker in one point in a three dimensional space that will of course not paint the whole picture. But if two speakers measures the same with a complete set of measurements (on and off axis horisontal and vertical, csd, impulse response, compression, thd etc) then they will sound the same. I highly doubt you will find these two speakers though, unless they are exactly the same.

I am more into audio than video, so my greatest concerns about these walls is audio performance (in addition to price, of course.)
All these measurements don’t paint the whole picture is the whole point . I had B&Ws , Genelecs , kefs, seatons and now Alcons . And they were all calibrated and still all have different characteristic . But don’t want expand anyomre here . Only replied since you quoted me . U can PM me if you have any questions
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post #83 of 131 Old 06-18-2019, 01:23 AM
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All these measurements don’t paint the whole picture is the whole point . I had B&Ws , Genelecs , kefs, seatons and now Alcons . And they were all calibrated and still all have different characteristic . But don’t want expand anyomre here . Only replied since you quoted me . U can PM me if you have any questions
Do you think these speakers measures the same when calibrated? They don't. You can't calibrate off axis frequency response. If they did measure the same (complete measurements, not one simple frequency measurement), they would sound the same. That's my point.
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post #84 of 131 Old 06-18-2019, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
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All these measurements don’t paint the whole picture is the whole point . I had B&Ws , Genelecs , kefs, seatons and now Alcons . And they were all calibrated and still all have different characteristic . But don’t want expand anyomre here . Only replied since you quoted me . U can PM me if you have any questions
Do you think these speakers measures the same when calibrated? They don't. You can't calibrate off axis frequency response. If they did measure the same (complete measurements, not one simple frequency measurement), they would sound the same. That's my point.
I am talking about sitting on the money seat and the speakers have different sound ... Alcons have very distinct upper midrange and high end clarity . Again don’t want to highjack the thread , as what you are asking is irrelevant to original topic . Please pm if u want to discuss . Please let the thread stay on led wall topic
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post #85 of 131 Old 06-18-2019, 01:44 AM
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I am talking about sitting on the money seat and the speakers have different sound ... Alcons have very distinct upper midrange and high end clarity . Again don’t want to highjack the thread , as what you are asking is irrelevant to original topic . Please pm if u want to discuss . Please let the thread stay on led wall topic
I hope your knowledge about video and vision is better than audio, because this is just silly. Of course these diffrencies are measurable. Yes it is off topic, but you brought it up and keep posting wrong assumptions in your responses to me, so I feel I have to respond.
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post #86 of 131 Old 06-18-2019, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
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I am talking about sitting on the money seat and the speakers have different sound ... Alcons have very distinct upper midrange and high end clarity . Again don’t want to highjack the thread , as what you are asking is irrelevant to original topic . Please pm if u want to discuss . Please let the thread stay on led wall topic
I hope your knowledge about video and vision is better than audio, because this is just silly. Of course these diffrencies are measurable. Yes it is off topic, but you brought it up and keep posting wrong assumptions in your responses to me, so I feel I have to respond.
Ok I concede ... u mean guys who have Ariel’s , JBL synthesis , or JTRs , or kits from parts express should sound the same as long as they they are calibrated by same guy in same room .
Again I concede . You probably are right .
Let the thread stay on topic

Last edited by mani; 06-18-2019 at 01:53 AM.
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post #87 of 131 Old 06-18-2019, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Wherein I have even designed, built, and tested an audio system solution to the problem with respect to having a gigantic non-acoustically-transparent highly-acoustically-reflective panel covering the most of your home theater's front wall, but with zero compromise with respect to the audio quality. SAMSUNG themselves even flew in from Korea to audition this.
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Originally Posted by jeno View Post
I am late to the party here, but I find this claim quite extra ordinary. Zero compromise? Really? Compared to what? I think most people will find the audio in Wall installations good enough, because of the overwhelming picture and vision dominating hearing in how the brain processes information. But I have yet to be convinced that your audio solution has zero comprimise compared to the best audio installations out there. But who knows, maybe you are right.
Well, firstly I happen to be one of those people who designs and builds the best audio installations out there. And secondly, yes, really

Compared to what? As compared with a projection screen with speakers behind it.

I strongly disagree that "most people will find the audio in Wall installations good enough". When it comes to audio 'good enough' does not feature within my vocabulary And as it happens, I specialize in designing and building uiltra-high-end home theaters and I can tell you right now that the demographic who will be purchasing these expensive video walls are doing so because they want the best in not only video but also audio. And most certainly clients do not want to compromise when it comes to the audio; and this is even when it comes to installations into luxury yachts and penthouse apartments wherein there are restrictions due to the environment. Furthermore, SAMSUNG has received overwhelmingly negative feedback regarding its ONYX cinemas that features its commercial modular LED Video Wall product that the audio sucks; and this is from the general population, let alone AV enthusiasts! Wherein, the general opinion is that the video is a step-up but the audio is a step backwards. So, SAMSUNG is very aware that there needs to be better audio with respect to both the commercial cinema and domestic home theater video wall products

There will soon be opportunity for your good self and any of the fine gentlemen who populate this forum to attend some AV parties that I will be hosting later this year, wherein you will be able to experience this audio system for yourself; because I am installing it into one of two new home theaters that I am only a couple of months aways from finishing at my home. So don't take my word for it, come and have a listen. The proof is in the pudding as they say


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post #88 of 131 Old 06-18-2019, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Well, firstly I happen to be one of those people who designs and builds the best audio installations out there. And secondly, yes, really

Compared to what? As compared with a projection screen with speakers behind it.

I strongly disagree that "most people will find the audio in Wall installations good enough". When it comes to audio 'good enough' does not feature within my vocabulary And as it happens, I specialize in designing and building uiltra-high-end home theaters and I can tell you right now that the demographic who will be purchasing these expensive video walls are doing so because they want the best in not only video but also audio. And most certainly clients do not want to compromise when it comes to the audio; and this is even when it comes to installations into luxury yachts and penthouse apartments wherein there are restrictions due to the environment. Furthermore, SAMSUNG has received overwhelmingly negative feedback regarding its ONYX cinemas that features its commercial modular LED Video Wall product that the audio sucks; and this is from the general population, let alone AV enthusiasts! Wherein, the general opinion is that the video is a step-up but the audio is a step backwards. So, SAMSUNG is very aware that there needs to be better audio with respect to both the commercial cinema and domestic home theater video wall products

There will soon be opportunity for your good self and any of the fine gentlemen who populate this forum to attend some AV parties that I will be hosting later this year, wherein you will be able to experience this audio system for yourself; because I am installing it into one of two new home theaters that I am only a couple of months aways from finishing at my home. So don't take my word for it, come and have a listen. The proof is in the pudding as they say

I have read your posts here as extremely video orientated, so I wasen't quite sure what your standard regarding audio were. I like the spirit in your last two sentences though, and really hope you succed. It would be sad if the audio suffered because of this new technology. Anyway I'm not going to be on your client list any time soon. But if pricing goes way down, who knows.
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post #89 of 131 Old 06-18-2019, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
There will soon be opportunity for your good self and any of the fine gentlemen who populate this forum to attend some AV parties that I will be hosting later this year, wherein you will be able to experience this audio system for yourself; because I am installing it into one of two new home theaters that I am only a couple of months aways from finishing at my home. So don't take my word for it, come and have a listen. The proof is in the pudding as they say

Is this in the UK Nigel ?

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post #90 of 131 Old 06-18-2019, 07:02 AM
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Its staggering how bright this thing gets.
Staggering, yes, but I can't help feel that if what you are after is a dark room display for HT purposes it is also utterly pointless. Of all the things I pick on about my room, not once has brightness ever come to mind these days.
OK, maybe if you're trying to light a 15ft-20ft display you'll have a different take on things, but for most of us mortals the brightness capabilities of these just ain't a thing.
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