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post #61 of 94 Old 07-24-2019, 12:49 AM
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Nigel- heard anything about our friends at Sony and new projector(s)? 5000 is definitely long in the tooth at this point.
Sorry, but I am not allowed to discuss any of the SONY info at the present time or I will get in trouble...

Can you say which Sony info you are not allowed to discuss .... . 🙂
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post #62 of 94 Old 07-25-2019, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Nigel- heard anything about our friends at Sony and new projector(s)? 5000 is definitely long in the tooth at this point.


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Sorry, but I am not allowed to discuss any of the SONY info at the present time or I will get in trouble...

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Can you say which Sony info you are not allowed to discuss .... . 🙂
Mani, as I am going to CEDIA, and I'm sure I'll get to see Nigel again there, whatever Sony news is announced at CEDIA I will text you and let you know. HA! Whatever Nigel knows about upcoming Sony announcements at CEDIA regarding any new Sony projectors he is obviously being super tight lipped about!

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post #63 of 94 Old 07-25-2019, 01:10 PM
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Nigel- heard anything about our friends at Sony and new projector(s)? 5000 is definitely long in the tooth at this point.


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Sorry, but I am not allowed to discuss any of the SONY info at the present time or I will get in trouble...

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Can you say which Sony info you are not allowed to discuss .... . &#x1f642;
Mani, as I am going to CEDIA, and I'm sure I'll get to see Nigel again there, whatever Sony news is announced at CEDIA I will text you and let you know. HA! Whatever Nigel knows about upcoming Sony announcements at CEDIA regarding any new Sony projectors he is obviously being super tight lipped about!
Thanks Steve

May be it is better you don’t text me to update &#x1f61c;, since I just spent money on Alcons based Atmos , Trinnov and calibration by Walter ....
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post #64 of 94 Old 07-25-2019, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Steve

May be it is better you don’t text me to update &#x1f61c;, since I just spent money on Alcons based Atmos , Trinnov and calibration by Walter ....
Ha! Gonna have to practice some self-control! Good luck!

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post #65 of 94 Old 07-29-2019, 03:57 AM
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The latest word is that JVC will NOT be releasing any new models this year due to the delay and needing to iron out the initial launch bugs and glitches with respect to the new NX/RS lamp-based range, so the indication is that the launch of the new JVC NX/RS 2160P Laser has been post-poned until next year (2020). I hope this is marketing subterfuge and JVC will surprise us all, but that's the latest info coming from JVC...

Perhaps preview at the last Local show next February?
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post #66 of 94 Old 07-29-2019, 04:02 AM
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@mani you know whom to ask about the 608 demo at ISE, since it was demonstrated at the following Cinemacon, Peter raving about that showfloor public demo, I doubt an NDA from that initial demo is still in place.

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post #67 of 94 Old 07-29-2019, 06:13 AM
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Perhaps preview at the last Local show next February?
Possibly

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@mani you know whom to ask about the 608 demo at ISE, since it was demonstrated at the following Cinemacon, Peter raving about that showfloor public demo, I doubt an NDA from that initial demo is still in place.
I hate to say it but the SONY SRX-R608 really isn't anything to get excited about.

The deal-breaker is the lousy black floor due to the paltry 10,000:1 peak ON/OFF contrast performance. This is less than half the peak ON/OFF contrast performance of the SONY 995ES and 885ES, and about 2/3 the performance of the SONY 5000ES. This represents a significant step backwards in contrast peformance and black floor as compared with the these other SONY projectors. And the 1% - 5% ADL contrast performance is similarly disappointing.

Furthermore, with such poor luminance dynamic range this also means that the HDR performance is lousy as well. Where it should be noted that HDR = HIGH Dynamic Range, not LOW dynamic range! Wherein, 10,000:1 is not high; it's low... Sorry!

At this price point this kind of performance is wholly unacceptable.

In short, no thank you and hard pass!

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post #68 of 94 Old 07-29-2019, 07:49 AM
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I hate to say it but the SONY SRX-R608 really isn't anything to get excited about.

The deal-breaker is the lousy black floor due to the paltry 10,000:1 peak ON/OFF contrast performance. This is less than half the peak ON/OFF contrast performance of the SONY 995ES and 885ES, and about 2/3 the performance of the SONY 5000ES. This represents a significant step backwards in contrast peformance and black floor as compared with the these other SONY projectors. And the 1% - 5% ADL contrast performance is similarly disappointing.

Furthermore, with such poor luminance dynamic range this also means that the HDR performance is lousy as well. Where it should be noted that HDR = HIGH Dynamic Range, not LOW dynamic range! Wherein, 10,000:1 is not high; it's low... Sorry!

At this price point this kind of performance is wholly unacceptable.

In short, no thank you and hard pass!

So we'll just have to wait and see if the engineers from Japan can come up with something else.
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post #69 of 94 Old 07-29-2019, 08:21 AM
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BTW, @ARROW-AV , I see Peter wholeheartedly disagrees with you, and still considers it the 'BEST PROJECTED IMAGE FOR HT AT CINEMACON 2019!!!!'

As I read it the difference is in the appreciation of on-off contrast (15K:1 with iris and screen), versus colorimetry and MTF.

I was not invited to the ISE off-show-floor-demo, nor would i claim to have a good eye for color, so I can't judge between your varied ratings of this machine/image.
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post #70 of 94 Old 07-29-2019, 08:26 AM
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Perhaps preview at the last Local show next February?
Possibly [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

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@mani you know whom to ask about the 608 demo at ISE, since it was demonstrated at the following Cinemacon, Peter raving about that showfloor public demo, I doubt an NDA from that initial demo is still in place.
I hate to say it but the SONY SRX-R608 really isn't anything to get excited about.

The deal-breaker is the lousy black floor due to the paltry 10,000:1 peak ON/OFF contrast performance. This is less than half the peak ON/OFF contrast performance of the SONY 995ES and 885ES, and about 2/3 the performance of the SONY 5000ES. This represents a significant step backwards in contrast peformance and black floor as compared with the these other SONY projectors. And the 1% - 5% ADL contrast performance is similarly disappointing.

Furthermore, with such poor luminance dynamic range this also means that the HDR performance is lousy as well. Where it should be noted that HDR = HIGH Dynamic Range, not LOW dynamic range! Wherein, 10,000:1 is not high; it's low... Sorry! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

At this price point this kind of performance is wholly unacceptable.

In short, no thank you and hard pass! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

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I am quite satisfied with my 5000 for now even on my 15’ wide AT screen . Besides cost just the size of any upgrade from 5000 is a prohibiting factor anyway . My 5000 just fits my hush box . Would definitely love to have new Christie if it was lit cheaper and lit smaller . But I guess will have to wait for it &#x1f642;
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post #71 of 94 Old 07-29-2019, 11:57 AM
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BTW, @ARROW-AV , I see Peter wholeheartedly disagrees with you, and still considers it the 'BEST PROJECTED IMAGE FOR HT AT CINEMACON 2019!!!!'

As I read it the difference is in the appreciation of on-off contrast (15K:1 with iris and screen), versus colorimetry and MTF.

I was not invited to the ISE off-show-floor-demo, nor would i claim to have a good eye for color, so I can't judge between your varied ratings of this machine/image.
Couple of things here

The ON/OFF contrast performance of the SONY SRX-R608 measures 10,000:1 peak and circa 8,000:1 when accurately calibrated. There is no scenario wherein it measures 15,000:1. And further to my measurements confirming as such, this information is from SONY themselves. Screen is irrelevant with respect to contrast within blacked out environments. Ambient light rejecting screens can help to reduce the negative impact on contrast performance due to environmental light, however no projection screen exists which is able to increase the dynamic range and hence the maximum ON/OFF contrast performance. Negative gain screens will deepen the black floor however concomitantly will lessen the white level as well, akin to an ND Filter. Consequently, "15K:1 with iris and screen" is incorrect misinformation.

The SONY SRX-R608 is essentially a stripped down, compacted, budget version of the SONY SRX-R815 with the target demographic being small cinemas where a lower price than the SONY SRX-R815 is desired and where retaining reference performance over the long-term is not a priority. Wherein, both the SONY SRX-R815 and SONY SRX-R608 have essentially the same identical luminance dynamic range and hence contrast performance. Both projectors are singular blue-laser through yellow phosphor panel SXRD LCoS and utilize color filters to achieve high coverage of DCI-P3 color gamut within BT.2020.

However, the SONY SRX-R608, being a stripped down, compacted, budget version of the SONY SRX-R815, does not have the tools that come with the SONY SRX-R815 that are used for optimizing and retaining the baseline image quality over time, which includes image uniformity as well as any drifting or degradation with respect to contrast performance. So in this regard you get what you pay for. Wherein, personally, I consider these features of the SONY SRX-R815 to be all-important, especially when the intended usage is home theater, and particularly high-end home theater, which is the application here.

The fact of the matter is that Barco's new Series 4 range of D-Cinema projectors, which are full RGB laser projectors with native 4K 3-Chip DLP TRP chipsets, and which are very similar cost to the SONY SRX-R608, significantly outperform it with respect to both "colorimetry and MTF". Where the SONY SRX-R608 achieves 100% coverage of DCI-P3 within BT.2020 the new Barcos achieve 99% coverage of BT.2020. Remember the SONY SRX-R608 is only singular blue laser; and there is quite simply no contest as compared with full true RGB laser as far as color performance is concerned. And with respect to sharpness and MTF it should be noted that we are comparing LCoS vs DLP, wherein the latter is superior with respect to not just sharpness and MTF but also image uniformity as well, and typically also RGB pixel alignment and chromatic aberration to boot.

So, no, the SONY SRX-R608 is not the best projected image at CinemaCon 2019 as far as "colorimetry and MTF" are concerned.

It probably was/is as far as contrast and black level performance is concerned, however given the competition are touting the usual circa 2,000:1 - 5,000:1 ON/OFF contrast performance of almost all D-Cinema projectors this is not really cause for excitement. SONY's objective here was and is to simply have better contrast performance than the competition and in this regard 10,000:1 ON/OFF contrast achieves this. Is this the level of contrast performance that we desire or consider acceptable for high-end home theater, taking the performance of other high-end projectors into consideration, such as the JVC RS4500/Z1, JVC RS3000/NX9, SONY 995ES, SONY 885ES, and SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS? Nope. And not even close! It's even a step down as compared with the SONY 5000ES.

There are other projectors with superior colorimetry and MTF. There are other projectors with significantly superior contrast performance. And there are other new projectors in the pipeline as well which will outperform the SONY SRX-R608.

And for what it's worth, you can't really properly evaluate the performance of a projector at a trade show. You need to do so within a controlled environment; which is precisely what I have done. SONY Europe headquarters is located only 20 minutes away from my home and I have had numerous opportunities to spend entire days there comprehensively evaluating their D-Cinema projectors; as well as at Alan Gouger's; and in my A/V laboratory.

As per usual I am just being completely impartial, straight, and honest here… so sorry if I am being a party pooper!

This is most certainly is not the successor to the SONY 5000ES that people have been and are waiting for. Hopefully we will soon be seeing a new projector which qualifies as a proper upgrade from the SONY 5000ES. The SONY SRX-R608 is not that projector

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post #72 of 94 Old 07-29-2019, 11:58 AM
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post #73 of 94 Old 07-29-2019, 12:54 PM
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Couple of things here



The ON/OFF contrast performance of the SONY SRX-R608 measures 10,000:1 peak and circa 8,000:1 when accurately calibrated. There is no scenario wherein it measures 15,000:1. And further to my measurements confirming as such, this information is from SONY themselves. Screen is irrelevant with respect to contrast within blacked out environments. Ambient light rejecting screens can help to reduce the negative impact on contrast performance due to environmental light, however no projection screen exists which is able to increase the dynamic range and hence the ON/OFF contrast performance. Negative gain screens will deepen the black floor however concomitantly will lessen the white level as well, akin to an ND Filter. Consequently, "15K:1 with iris and screen" is incorrect misinformation.



The SONY SRX-R608 is essentially a stripped down, compacted, budget version of the SONY SRX-R815 with the target demographic being small cinemas where a lower price than the SONY SRX-R815 is desired and where retaining reference performance over the long-term is not a priority. Wherein, both the SONY SRX-R815 and SONY SRX-R608 have essentially the same identical luminance dynamic range and hence contrast performance. Both projectors are singular blue-laser through yellow phosphor panel SXRD LCoS and utlize color filters to achieve high coverage of DCI-P3 color gamut within BT.2020.



However, the SONY SRX-R608, being a stripped down, compacted, budget version of the SONY SRX-R815, does not have the tools that come with the SONY SRX-R815 that are used for optimizing and retaining the baseline image quality over time, which includes image uniformity as well as any drifting or degradation with respect to contrast performance. So in this regard you get what you pay for. Wherein, personally, I consider these features of the SONY SRX-R815 to be all-important, especially when the intended usage is home theater, and particularly high-end home theater, which is the application here.



The fact of the matter is that Barco's new Series 4 range of D-Cinema projectors, which are full RGB laser projectors with native 4K 3-Chip DLP TRP chipsets, and which are very similar cost to the SONY SRX-R608, significantly outperform it with respect to both "colorimetry and MTF". Where the SONY SRX-R608 achieves 100% coverage of DCI-P3 within BT.2020 the new Barcos achieve 99% coverage of BT.2020. Remember the SONY SRX-R608 is only singular blue laser; and there is quite simply no contest as compared with full true RGB laser as far as color performance is concerned. And with respect to sharpness and MTF it should be noted that we are comparing LCoS vs DLP, wherein the latter is superior with respect to not just sharpness and MTF but also image uniformity as well, as typically also RGB pixel alignment and chromatic aberration to boot.



So, no, the SONY SRX-R608 is not the best projected image at CinemaCon 2019 as far as "colorimetry and MTF" are concerned.



It probably was/is as far as contrast and black level performance is concerned, however given the competition are touting the usual circa 2,000:1 - 5,000:1 ON/OFF contrast performance of almost all D-Cinema projectors this is not really cause for excitement. SONY's objective here was and is to simply have better contrast performance than the competition and in this regard 10,000:1 ON/OFF contrast achieves this. Is this the level of contrast performance that we desire or consider acceptable for high-end home theater, taking the performance of other high-end projectors into consideration, such as the JVC RS4500/Z1, JVC RS3000/NX9, SONY 995ES, SONY 885ES, and SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS? Nope. And not even close! It's even a step down as compared with the SONY 5000ES.



There are other projectors with superior colorimetry and MTF. There are other projectors with significantly superior contrast performance. And there are other new projectors in the pipeline as well which will outperform the SONY SRX-R608.



And for what it's worth, you can't really properly evaluate the performance of a projector at a trade show. You need to do so within a controlled environment; which is precisely what I have done. SONY Europe headquarters is located only 20 minutes away from my home and I have had numerous opportunities to spend entire days there comprehensively evaluating their D-Cinema projectors; as well as at Alan Gouger's; and in my A/V laboratory.



As per usual I am just being completely impartial, straight, and honest here… so sorry if I am being a party pooper!



This is most certainly is not the successor to the SONY 5000ES that people have been and are waiting for. Hopefully we will soon be seeing a new projector which qualifies as a proper upgrade from the SONY 5000ES. The SONY SRX-R608 is not that projector





Very helpful information.


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post #74 of 94 Old 07-29-2019, 02:12 PM
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“This is most certainly is not the successor to the SONY 5000ES that people have been and are waiting for. Hopefully we will soon be seeing a new projector which qualifies as a proper upgrade from the SONY 5000ES. The SONY SRX-R608 is not that projector”

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I sincerely hope we don’t see it anytime soon , gets too expensive ...... &#x1f600;
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post #75 of 94 Old 07-29-2019, 03:28 PM
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BTW, @ARROW-AV , I see Peter wholeheartedly disagrees with you, and still considers it the 'BEST PROJECTED IMAGE FOR HT AT CINEMACON 2019!!!!'

As I read it the difference is in the appreciation of on-off contrast (15K:1 with iris and screen), versus colorimetry and MTF.

I was not invited to the ISE off-show-floor-demo, nor would i claim to have a good eye for color, so I can't judge between your varied ratings of this machine/image.
Wow, when did he jump off the DLP bandwagon?

How can LCOS exceed DLP in MTF performance? Has it been measured?

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post #76 of 94 Old 07-29-2019, 07:01 PM
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@Ericglo , cinemacon. Though Sony won his best demo award for that show due to Barco messing up.

"Well lo and behold, in discussing my impressions with a person in the know it turns out that for the 2D demo of this amazingly engineered projector, the show runners left the RealD Z-Screen in front of the lens, and did not switch the internal 2D profile!"

DPI 8K HDR demo won his best projection demo at show award for Infocomm. So he is not off DLP, he just found the 608 lacked the 8 bit banding of the 5000, and had good color and MTF. He observed the 815 like quality. Of course there was no long term review opportunity to observe the quality reduction over time, Nigel mentioned above. I believe Alan did a long term review of the 815.
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I went over to the dci forum to glance at his comments for myself. I see he quoted Arrow and added his responses to why he thinks the Sony is better. Also it looks like he inserted his own comment on Lygren's reply some how.


One thing I will say is that measuring MTF with your eyes is silly. I have asked for data before, but he or anyone else hasn't been forthcoming. This whole MTF performance metric was first discussed over a decade ago by TSE. When Darin and I visited him at VDC, he showed us how to measure MTF. DLPs at the time were the best followed by LCOS. The difference wasn't huge and IIRC was getting into diminishing returns. Maybe Darin remembers more details. Somewhere in the archives, TSE even gave a way to measure MTF.

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post #78 of 94 Old 07-30-2019, 12:04 AM
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How can LCOS exceed DLP in MTF performance? Has it been measured?
It doesn't. This is simply further incorrect misinformation

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@Ericglo , cinemacon. Though Sony won his best demo award for that show due to Barco messing up.

"Well lo and behold, in discussing my impressions with a person in the know it turns out that for the 2D demo of this amazingly engineered projector, the show runners left the RealD Z-Screen in front of the lens, and did not switch the internal 2D profile!"

DPI 8K HDR demo won his best projection demo at show award for Infocomm. So he is not off DLP, he just found the 608 lacked the 8 bit banding of the 5000, and had good color and MTF. He observed the 815 like quality. Of course there was no long term review opportunity to observe the quality reduction over time, Nigel mentioned above. I believe Alan did a long term review of the 815.
The DPI 8K has an unacceptably high amount of video noise and abysmal contrast and black level performance due to 2000:1 native ON/OFF contrast and dynamic contrast functionality that is so bad it is unusable.

Furthermore, as I have already pointed out, you can't have good HIGH Dynamic Range (HDR) performance when there is LOW Dynamic Range! The SONY SRX-608 has comparatively poor HDR performance because it measures low usable dynamic range. The DPI 8K has even lower usable dynamic range (less than 2000:1) so it's HDR performance is even worse!

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I went over to the dci forum to glance at his comments for myself. I see he quoted Arrow and added his responses to why he thinks the Sony is better. Also it looks like he inserted his own comment on Lygren's reply some how.

One thing I will say is that measuring MTF with your eyes is silly. I have asked for data before, but he or anyone else hasn't been forthcoming. This whole MTF performance metric was first discussed over a decade ago by TSE. When Darin and I visited him at VDC, he showed us how to measure MTF. DLPs at the time were the best followed by LCOS. The difference wasn't huge and IIRC was getting into diminishing returns. Maybe Darin remembers more details. Somewhere in the archives, TSE even gave a way to measure MTF.
I just glanced over there to see what he's posted and I am disappointed to see that there is GIANT FONT SIZE and MULTI COLORED TEXT with resorting to childish name calling and petty jibes... Furthermore, he says I am wrong, without any explanation or scientific substantiation regarding matters which are scientific fact and are proven by measurements which are repeatable. Sorry, but I think I will leave it there if that's OK?

And I would love to see sometime his magic projection screen material that is capable of breaking the laws of physics and increasing peak ON/OFF contrast and dynamic range performance, even though this is impossible

The fact of the matter is that it is hardly surprising that "He observed the 815 like quality" given it's essentially a stripped down, compacted, budget version of the 815 (as I have already stated).

Both Alan Gouger and I have had extensive handson time and experience comprehensively evaluating all of SONY's D-cinema offerings, including the 815, and neither of us is impressed by the 815. So it's not really very surprising that neither of us is impressed by the 608 either

By the way, I should add that I don't consider ANY of the new D-Cinema projector offerings to be of interest for high-end home theater. They all have issues. The SONY SRX 608 has poor contrast, rubbish black floor, uniformity issues, and performance deterioration over the long-term without the tools that come with the SRX 815 that are needed to fix them and/or bring the performance back to baseline, to name but a few. It's also only singular blue laser, when there are now full RGB laser projectors available at this price range. Whereas the new BARCO Series 4 projectors, whilst being full RGB laser projectors with native 4K DLP TRP chipsets, have even worse contrast and even more rubbish black floor. I have already explained why the new 8K DPI is no good. The new dual Red and Blue laser projector offerings from NEC are unfortunately no good either. As per the new 8K DPI these are reliant upon dynamic contrast functionality remedying the very low native contrast performance, however, as per the 8K DPI, the dynamic contrast functionality is abysmal, fundamentally flawed, and hence unusable.

The fact of the matter is that for a new projector at this price range to be of interest it must significantly outperform the existing flagship home theater projector offerings, including the SONY 5000ES and JVC RS4500/Z1; and it's neither an upgrade nor acceptable if certain aspects, such as contrast and black floor are a significant step down in performance. And the fact of the matter is that it is scientifically impossible to achieve good HDR performance with low dynamic range, wherein high performance not only with respect to the ON/OFF contrast is required but also throughout the range 0% - 20% ADL which is wherein almost all video content resides, and in particular 0% - 5% ADL. And this is where ALL the existing SONY and BARCO D-Cinema projectors fail, including the new SONY SRX 608 and BARCO Series 4.

The upcoming next generation BARCO projectors which will be making use of its patented 'Light Steering' technology to boost dynamic range performance have the potential to tick all the right boxes. So these are definitely worth looking out for. However, of course the jury is out with respect to just how effective this new technology actually is in reality. We shall see. And then there's the possible new flagship home theater laser projector offerings from the likes of SONY and JVC. And additionally there is the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS, with the possibility of a future native 4K version on the horizon. And then of course there is the CHRISTIE ECLIPSE for those interested in the ultimate video performance. These I see as the best contenders for existing SONY 5000ES owners who are looking to upgrade


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LOL. So Alan changed his mind on the 815? Initially he like it very much.

I pointed out my DPI experience when Peter posted his impression from Infocomm, one has to say the second ISE showing with the final 30K lumens unit did fare better than the initial ISE 2018 demo.

The Christie 4325 has been shipping since around January 2018, the first self-contained RGB laser DLP projector. I was told 'WELL below 100K' at ISE 2018. And now the 4 series from Barco is also offering self-contained RGB DLP.

The NEC did look so good at ISE, but you are not the first one to tell me it does not hold up under scrutiny.
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LOL. So Alan changed his mind on the 815? Initially he like it very much.
No. He didn't

He was disappointed; and so was I. Alan was simply being 'diplomatic' regarding his feedback. And I should know, I was there when he evaluated it. Same goes for the new NEC.

What's more, the difference in performance versus the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS is not even close, with respect to all of contrast, black floor, HDR performance and color performance. And he also commented on how the color performance of the SONY pales in comparison with his RGB laser. And that because of this he couldn't even watch the SONY. He consequently purchased the SIM2 and got rid of the SONY.

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I pointed out my DPI experience when Peter posted his impression from Infocomm, one has to say the second ISE showing with the final 30K lumens unit did fare better than the initial ISE 2018 demo.
It still has a crazy high level of video noise, abysmal contrast and black floor, and paltry dynamic range. Sorry but you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. The video performance of this projector is what you would expect from a typical high brightness low contrast DLP. It's also not native 8K by the way, but pixel-shifting; it's native 4K resolution. Again, absolutely nothing to be excited about.

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The Christie 4325 has been shipping since around January 2018, the first self-contained RGB laser DLP projector. I was told 'WELL below 100K' at ISE 2018. And now the 4 series from Barco is also offering self-contained RGB DLP.
Exactly. Which is why SONY D-Cinema projectors really need to be progressing forwards from singular blue laser to full RGB laser as well, if they are to survive.

Additionally there is also the new Christie D4K40-RGB projector which costs circa $79,000 is full RGB laser with 40,000 lumens light output; and this is also a compact fully self-contained unit.

And the Barco Series 4 will be costing even less than this. Reportedly circa $50,000 which is $10,000 less than a SONY 5000ES, for a full RGB laser projector.

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The NEC did look so good at ISE, but you are not the first one to tell me it does not hold up under scrutiny.
Alan and I comprehensively evaluated this in controlled conditions. The peak native contrast measured to be 1800:1; and the dynamic contrast is fundamentally flawed and consequently completely unusable. It's a real shame because we had high hopes that this might be a winner. We fed back to NEC accordingly including how to fix the issue. However, I am not holding out much hope. Good dynamic contrast functionality is a tough nut to crack and very few manufacturers have succeeded in achieving it.


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No. He didn't

He was disappointed; and so was I. Alan was simply being 'diplomatic' regarding his feedback. And I should know, I was there when he evaluated it. Same goes for the new NEC.

What's more, the difference in performance versus the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS is not even close, with respect to all of contrast, black floor, HDR performance and color performance. And he also commented on how the color performance of the SONY pales in comparison with his RGB laser. And that because of this he couldn't even watch the SONY. He consequently purchased the SIM2 and got rid of the SONY.

It still has a crazy high level of video noise, abysmal contrast and black floor, and paltry dynamic range. Sorry but you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. The video performance of this projector is what you would expect from a typical high brightness low contrast DLP. It's also not native 8K by the way, but pixel-shifting; it's native 4K resolution. Again, absolutely nothing to be excited about.


Exactly. Which is why SONY D-Cinema projectors really need to be progressing forwards from singular blue laser to full RGB laser as well, if they are to survive.

Additionally there is also the new Christie D4K40-RGB projector which costs circa $79,000 is full RGB laser with 40,000 lumens light output; and this is also a compact fully self-contained unit.

And the Barco Series 4 will be costing even less than this. Reportedly circa $50,000.


Alan and I comprehensively evaluated this in controlled conditions. The peak native contrast measured to be 1800:1; and the dynamic contrast is fundamentally flawed and consequently completely unusable. It's a real shame because we had high hopes that this might be a winner. We fed back to NEC accordingly including how to fix the issue. However, I am not holding out much hope. Good dynamic contrast functionality is a tough nut to crack and very few manufacturers have succeeded in achieving it.

I have never seen a 'Dynamic Black' projector that actually worked.
Wow, at ISE I was standing next to the Dutch distributor, and he told some-one who asked listprice would be over 200K€, maybe even as high as 250K. So $79K is good news.
50K that would make the HLD Barco a poor deal, as one often would need two to get a bit of light anyway.
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I have never seen a 'Dynamic Black' projector that actually worked.
The SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS does. In fact, it's one of the best I have evaluated to date. Near perfect utlization of both dynamic irises and gamma modulation

The JVC projectors have pretty good dynamic contrast performance, some models better than others.

The SONY 1100ES has good dynamic contrast functionality (albeit SXRD panel degradation also); but the newer models not so much.

As of right now I would say that SIM2 and JVC have the best dynamic contrast performance.

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Wow, at ISE I was standing next to the Dutch distributor, and he told some-one who asked listprice would be over 200K€, maybe even as high as 250K. So $79K is good news.
You were misinformed

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50K that would make the HLD Barco a poor deal, as one often would need two to get a bit of light anyway.
I am referring to the new Barco Series 4 projectors which range from 11,000 - 23,500 lumens. So the pricing will be a range with the entry level models being less than $50K. You can find the whole range here: https://www.cinionic.com/series4-laser-projectors. Personally, for full RGB laser projectors I do not consider this to be a poor deal at all, but in fact pretty amazing actually. Please feel free to point out any other RGB laser projectors that are less expensive than this

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And I would love to see sometime his magic projection screen material that is capable of breaking the laws of physics and increasing peak ON/OFF contrast and dynamic range performance, even though this is impossible
In his defense, I don't think he believes that. His favorite screen is the Torus. The Torus screen allows for optimum uniformity. It was really needed in the days of CRT, when the edges of a flat screen had a massive fall off in ft/lmbs. It was very noticeable when I compared it at a local cinema. Not sure how big of a difference it would make with DLPs today.

Also, a Torus will allow for better ANSI cr as you are directing the light back to the audience and not reflecting it off the wall. Even with black velvet, one will still have reflections. Of course, I don't think anyone has tried my multi layer approach to reflections.

I forgot to add I think that he is hoping to emulate the performance of the Torus with an optical screen. Some had similar high hopes with that optical screen out of California a couple of years ago. I can't remember the name. They were at Cedia '15 IIRC.

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In his defense, I don't think he believes that. His favorite screen is the Torus. The Torus screen allows for optimum uniformity. It was really needed in the days of CRT, when the edges of a flat screen had a massive fall off in ft/lmbs. It was very noticeable when I compared it at a local cinema. Not sure how big of a difference it would make with DLPs today.

Also, a Torus will allow for better ANSI cr as you are directing the light back to the audience and not reflecting it off the wall. Even with black velvet, one will still have reflections. Of course, I don't think anyone has tried my multi layer approach to reflections.

I forgot to add I think that he is hoping to emulate the performance of the Torus with an optical screen. Some had similar high hopes with that optical screen out of California a couple of years ago. I can't remember the name. They were at Cedia '15 IIRC.
Regarding the projector which is specced by SONY at 10,000:1 peak ON/OFF contrast he claimed and I quote: "15K:1 with iris and screen"

The screen has nothing to do with the peak ON/OFF contrast performance and dynamic range of a projector and it is impossible for a screen to increase it.

As I already stated a screen can help to reduce loss of contrast and dynamic range performance with respect to a non-optimized room with environmental light, but that is not what is being claimed here

Either way this is incorrect. The projector when accurately calibrated does not measure 15,000:1 native ON/OFF contrast.

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Even with black velvet, one will still have reflections. Of course, I don't think anyone has tried my multi layer approach to reflections.
Not necessarily You need to visit one of my home theaters Eric


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@ARROW-AV , Nigel, I was specifically refering to Dynamic Black, the lamp modulation version, too slow, too much pumping, to keep it turned on. The Sim2 doesn't do lampmodulation right? As you refer to the iris and gamma modulation, that seems to confirm that. I have only seen that not ready for prime time demo at ISE few years ago.

The Barco HLD projector the FS 40 or its ultrawidescreen HT sibling are around half that number, from memory 23K€ plus tax for the FS40, and 26K for the HT version. It was dim, the on-off contrast could not compete with the current level of RGB that claim 5000:1, so the series 4 seems to be the better deal.
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Email from Wisdom Audio re CEDIA this year:


"Subject: Wisdom Audio at Cedia Expo

CEDIA Expo Denver Co, Ballroom 401 & 402

We look forward to seeing you in Denver !

We will be located in two 36,000 Cu feet High-Performance Ballrooms.

Come experience our Line Source Private Theater signature Sound and see how our Planar Magnetic Driver Technology now scales to fit a 3" aperture.

13.6.8 Dolby Atmos Demo
Largest Active Demonstration ever presented at a trade show using our Reference Wisdom Series LS4i.
Learn More about LS4i

New Products
First High-End minimal appearance In-Ceiling Sub-Sat Solution
8 Ch. Power Amplifier 8x300W - 2 U
Learn more about our technologies"






























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https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!
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Here's the link for all the Trinnov demos at CEDIA 2019!

https://www.trinnov.com/2019/08/07/t...dia-expo-2019/

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!

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Here's the link for all the Trinnov demos at CEDIA 2019!

https://www.trinnov.com/2019/08/07/t...dia-expo-2019/

The link returns a 404 error.


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Here's the link for all the Trinnov demos at CEDIA 2019!

https://www.trinnov.com/2019/08/07/t...dia-expo-2019/

Try this one:


https://www.trinnov.com/2019/08/07/t...dia-expo-2019/


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