CINERAMAX Cedia 2019 Alcon Demo - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 107Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #121 of 139 Old 09-16-2019, 09:06 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mmiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 4,386
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked: 527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
I really like my F18’s, are you adding more slaves to existing positions or new master F18’s?
Sounds a bit on the naughty side...

Mike Miles
[email protected]
mmiles is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 139 Old 09-16-2019, 09:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
Lasalle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 948
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 587 Post(s)
Liked: 472
Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
Sounds a bit on the naughty side...
Only if you stack the salves on top
Reddig likes this.
Lasalle is offline  
post #123 of 139 Old 09-17-2019, 08:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Reddig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Central U.S.
Posts: 2,950
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 547 Post(s)
Liked: 1067
Are the Seaton sealed F18's a step above the Alcons sealed 18's? Ive heard the Alcons but not the Seatons yet.

JBL Pro/JTR/JVC/Denon/Oppo/Monoprice/Elite Screens/Furman/Seatcraft/Acoustimac/AudioQuest/Roku
Reddig is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #124 of 139 Old 09-17-2019, 09:01 PM
Advanced Member
 
Lasalle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 948
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 587 Post(s)
Liked: 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post
Are the Seaton sealed F18's a step above the Alcons sealed 18's? Ive heard the Alcons but not the Seatons yet.
I have not put them in an A/B comparison, but I suspect 1 Alcon Sub would have more output than 1 Seaton F18.
However, that is not how I would compare them. The Seaton rack amps allow you to stack 4 Seaton F18’s slaves per
Channel, that’s 8 subs per amp. For less than the price of 1 Sentinel 10 and 4 subs, You could do 2 Seaton
Rack amps and 12 F18’s. If the Alcon subs need to move 1” to reproduce an LFE peak, the Seaton’s only have to move
1/3”. Faster response, more headroom for the investment. Also the stacked subs create a bass array that help
Mitigate peak/null anomaly’s. The Alcons sub’s are very impressive, I tend to prefer the Seaton design approach,
If you have the space to use it.
Reddig likes this.

Last edited by Lasalle; 09-17-2019 at 09:15 PM.
Lasalle is offline  
post #125 of 139 Old 09-17-2019, 09:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Reddig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Central U.S.
Posts: 2,950
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 547 Post(s)
Liked: 1067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
I have not put them in an A/B comparison, but I suspect 1 Alcon Sub would have more output than 1 Seaton F18.
However, that is not how I would compare them. The Seaton rack amps allow you to stack 4 Seaton F18’s slaves per
Channel, that’s 8 subs per amp. For less than the price of 1 Sentinel 10 and 4 subs, You could do 2 Seaton
Rack amps and 12 F18’s. If the Alcon subs need to move 1” to reproduce a scene the Seaton’s only have to move
1/3”. Faster response, more headroom for the investment. Also the stacked subs create a bass array that help
Mitigate peak/null anomaly’s. The Alcons sub’s are very impressive, I tend to prefer the Seaton design approach,
If you have the space to use it.
Thanks Lasalle. Ive seen Seatons stacked up in a few different installs around here. Very nice. I like the whole master/slave thing. I read about them for years with nothing but great things said about them by all. I think some day I will move away from ported 18s and go to multiple sealed 18. When I get a different house with a bigger room.
Lasalle likes this.

JBL Pro/JTR/JVC/Denon/Oppo/Monoprice/Elite Screens/Furman/Seatcraft/Acoustimac/AudioQuest/Roku
Reddig is offline  
post #126 of 139 Old 09-30-2019, 12:11 PM
Advanced Member
 
Lasalle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 948
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 587 Post(s)
Liked: 472
Here is a note from Peter on his work on Topmersive experiences. He is very positive on the testing he did on my home HT (LOGE). I can't speak for other custom home HT's , but I can say to my ear's and eye's it exceeds anything I've experienced at CEDIA and other tradeshows. I hope some of you will be able to make the sessions being planned. (I'll try to edit in the pictures he included)

Peter's final thoughts on the Demo, Alcons and other CEDIA novelties.

Thanks to Alcons for letting me conduct the Topsmerssive Experiment and to all the willing guinea pig friends here. I have been encouraged by the feedback as to the worthiness of demanding from Hollywood that they come on board this mixing school of thought and I will address this with Dolby. It’s safe to say That SONY, Paramount, Warner and Lionsgate are totally OFF THE HOOK as demonstrated by their excellent examples in Topsmerssive mixing prowess during the experiment, a lot of them mastered from the cinema release and not remixed stupidly to the smaller screen, it is safe to assume all of the excellent exclusive to Kaleidescape tracks are not stinking remasterings for soundbars. Universal has Lucy, and several other good ones, Fox, I am not convinced yet Alita is Topsmerssive, it lacks a clean natural dynamic element, can’t quite point my finger on what it lacks but goes to show you that lighting up all the channels in a Trinnov multi-channel bargraph is not a guarantee of Topsmerssivenes so I am placing Fox right atop the mother bottom turd, Disney. Join me on this effort to wag the giant rodent by the tail and make the cinematic World of Disney Wonderful Again.

Besides all of the well documented barrage of mediocre mixing examples from Disney, where what once was conceived as good practice to mix the orchestra unto the sidewalls, this high minded Lucas Sound led practice has resulted in a cacophonous diffusive-confusive very un-discrete borscht of a sonic ALLOCENTRIC vomitif.

https://www.disneydigitalstudio.com/...vices-2/mix-7/

And if that is not bad enough as it is, Disney pulled out Dynaudio Esotar based monitors from one of their mix rooms and replaced it with QSC (courtesy of my friends at MIT, oi!). This crime against some audiophiles has resulted in the piercing of the sanctity of the transparency veil. FROM STUDIO TO HOME. Thus someone with a Dynaudio Topsmerssive setup at home where Disney mixes, like Ratatouille 5.1, Beauty and the Beast Live act.,Tomorrowland, and Doctor Strange 5.1, which sounded fabulously musical in neural -x, now confirmed with Ratatouille in Atmos all Disney releases have forced the harshness and lack of musicality of the QSC speakers down the chain and imposed this awful grating sound into our homes. This is the ultimate assault on our individual freedom of choice in our pursuit of happiness. QSC crapola for all! I witnessed in the future of cinema conference when Pat Griffis from Dolby’s VP office sold Disney and Pixar on the automated downstream workflow, in retrospect bad idea Pat.

Perhaps Disney needs a Topsmerssive demo to understand. I should try to attempt to arrange just that. While at it, installing a demo Alcons 4” RL-401 ribbon +8” system with 90x90 tops where the old Dynaudio system was could be the ticket. It could turnaround the QSC front end aggravated downstream auto workflow trainwreck (that constantly wrecks our movie watching existence) on a dime. ALCONS IS THE RX TO FIX DISNEY at the source.

THE ALCONS BOOTH DEMO INTRO YOUTUBE filmed by Reddig ( i misspoke twice, the African Archeoacoustic circles were 40k Years ago, not millions, when I said adaptation I meant habituation)
Be warned on my intelligibility, there is no hope I am even more difficult to understand in video than in copy.

Very moved to see today that in the Kscape thread I am not the only lunatic that prefers NON-LINEAR Scripts over regular movie watching, in my case focussed on the Topsmerssive aspects over linear movie watching. As I say The Best Possible Tool for scene analysis. Speaking of Topsmerssion here is my curated multichannel audio library of mostly egocentric mixes. Some errors like sacd’s purchased in stereo YUK, and some concerts that are allocentric but the content makes up in the excitement. The same issue of egocentric vs. allocentric recordings will be presented to DOLBY Music when i submit the best of these titles for ATMOS remixing. A big part of the time devoted to scene analysis when Andrew Poulain returns here on the 21st, last year he stayed for 7 hours and asked for a reprise this year. I am humbled.

https://www.discogs.com/user/cineramax/collection

I am proud there is very little ALLOCENTRIC classical music in that collection. Classical Music, DIFFUSIVE Church Like Music allocentric presentation acoustics. The drum was the instrument of choice in Africa’s egocentric echo sound stone circle sites of 40k years ago. Drums is the definitive multi channel instrument from yesteryear (remember I am positive this is a primal itch for us), the Moog, however, replaces the drum as the optimal atmos sonic pirouette sound object to take flight about the rooms. The vast majority of music titles I am asking Dolby to prioritize for ATMOS remixing incorporate some very good mooging.

BTW This is the 1975 Moog album I convinced first the artist and then Dolby to reissue in ATMOS from newly unearthed pristine Quad Tapes. Larry is the Michael Jordan of the Moog. What an honor.

.

Regarding SPL at the demo experiment: Steve B. is right that I should have played the script prior to the demo and adjust the volume for the loudest passages (RAMBO), for many Murphy audiovisual reasons this was not possible, it was an unrehearsed single shot. I must confess that when I pulled back the chair on the back row (towards the stacked rear right subs) very close to the wall I accidentally found myself seating maybe in the best seat in the house, a selfish bastard seat although only 18 inches away from a wall, I second SOWK’s similar comment on proximity to wall on the right side of that booth, the combination of the Alcons cylindrical dispersion with its wide directivity controlled angles explains for this excellent unexpected benefit, albeit mostly for MY individual SEAT. Call me a Selfish bastard. Back to volume, once I heard pigs flying I asked Walter for more and tried to go for the flying Hippopotamus. Did we come close to achieving it?


Why we alternated short clips highlighting different elements of the Topsmerssive bubble. From Archaeoacoustics book: (INSERT TO FOLLOW)


The 1) horseshoe-shaped rear band, this is something proven unique to the Alcons Audio 4” Ribbon and 8 “ at LOGE the scalability inside that U-shaped band as experienceable in La Salles is something IMHO NO AUDIOPHILE has ever experienced, from ant man small, to a medium-sized bright burn flying horizontally into the right wall, to the ginormous Off-World Colony Advertising Blimp in Bladerunner panning the entire sidewall, put this on your AVS HT MEET bucket list.

2) Is the extreme example of large object width channel use, Jumanji right wall becomes a giant drum, 3) very detailed use of tops, with robust pinpoint accuracy thanks to SONY, Paramount, Warner and Lionsgate for not remixing these titles for home use.

Why I wanted to do the demo this year? At dinner graciously organized by Ted C. I told Tom Back Alcon’s Owner “you have not heard an Alcons system sound this good.” He laughed at me like saying that’s both presumptuous AND audacious,” FOR A HOME THEATER” I added, “you have no idea, this system as well designed ( and Brad’s trigonometry and anal compulsive attention to detail was exhausting) as it was never meant to sound so over the top reference, this is the best-sounding home theater bed channel because of the cohesiveness and contiguous imaging smoothness with dynamic scalability and eery microarticulation therein [Front stage and Horseshoe] (plus it is transparently non fatiguing as F>>>k)”, even Arrow graciously commented to me and Brad that the bed channel is really something else.

There are many talented individuals and teams exceeding the client's wildest expectations every day with many brands in our industry, something else is at play in LOGE. “The Universe must have blessed it then” Ted C suggested after my lack of plausible explanation as to how it could sound so.Simply a top alternative for any enthusiast interested to sample. Would love to play a topsmerssive script for some of you @log E AVS MEET. Brad’s smoked hamburgers are tops.

When calibrating LOGE, Walter has 9 x m2’s in bed channel duty and he confessed “YOU CANNOT DO THIS WITH JBL” ask Brad. The M2 is a dual elliptical voice coil transducer, why use a 2 element transducer, that acts like a turbo when you can have one superbly dispersion controlling lightweight driver with a purely cylindrical waveform 1-20khz as opposed to coaxial, It is more consistent nearfield to far-field, at all decibels, the M2, not so much because of the turbo effect. Tom explained this to me at dinner (while we sketched future speakers lol) that is why the scaling is so purely lineal.


Remember, I was onto the next grueling pie-in-the-sky thing when my conscience is what forced me to revisit Alcons.


As I was moving at hyperspeed towards what feels like an interminably painful mission to Mars, the Penthouse Cinema completion, Brad’s PRO-RIBBON NIRVANA thing was bugging my head. I decided to screech on the brakes, drive for a mile in reverse and revisit a demo with Alcons as it is now more than ever a very worthy cause to experience first hand this LOGE tight scalable horshoe phenomenon. At SOLFAR You can see in the above pics that the separation azimuth of the tops is a constant 30 degrees from MLP, that is a one-seater optimization created to wrap the sounds, not in the somewhat compromised all format donut that is scripture to some Trinnov experts, but krispy Kremedom to at least 2 consultants ( i have proof in a Kaleidescape youtube class) I told Arnaud too to try to stop promoting so hard a unified format as the side effect appears to be creating donuts (holes in the middle above), Arnaud did not totally disagree, “depends on priorities, coverage versus...” selfish bastardom (screw coverage then - at the expense of a healthy payload of serotonin and endorphins ).

The above setup is designed to recreate the Houston Houston circling 18 Inches around the head with Super Hippopotamus Drop. In LOGE I estimate at 3 feet arms-length object wraparound, a super-significant achievement as it is a format-agnostic deploy the circling was expected by me at 6 feet around the head. Twice as good as expected, now i want to push Brad to push for a tighter headwrap, plus match the tops to the beds with the next gen bigger Alcons tops (CRMS SR HOR VER) for TOTAL BUBLE COHESIVENESS in Atmos, please upgrade Brad.

As to TOP Deployment Topographies, I am now not alone in espousing a design for CINEMA ATMOS (or setup 2 separate optimized systems to handle Neural X Pro as well), if you do the former, the imaging cross-format compromises on the lesser two of the three codecs are minuscule in comparison to the around the head, space invasion envelopment sense of exhilaration that otherwise YOU WILL NOT ENJOY. Decry the Donut. Besides Neural-X with tops laid out for ATMOS cinema, or even extreme selfish bastard 30 degrees constant azymuth can sound spectacularly superior, and AURO not bad at all.

That is what extreme selfish bastardom demands, which presents other challenges as tops MID BASS imaging is the most difficult of art forms presently as you tighten the spacing. That is where Trinnov 4 way bass management will be a lifesaver for the closer azimuth tops. The Trinnov 3D microphone and Alcons rl 401+8” CRMS-SR based bed takes care of the rest.

What else? Presently, like hinted above, who do I consider the most like-minded designer in this field? TONY GRIMANI. He also spouses Cinema azimuth ATMOS tops separation, and in a recent Kaleidescape Training, which I will shoot with my phone and post as a promotion to TONY and Kaleidescape for their extraordinary work in helping dismiss the currently accepted Krispy Kream un-Topsmerssive tops deployment practices in favor of the glorious promotion of TOPSMERSSION, thanks Kaleidescape for hiring Tony, super refreshing knowing I am not alone on these practices.

Asymmetry of side 2-D treatments is something I have independently arrived at, like TONY shows in his lecture. The only thing I disagree with Tony is the overuse of skyscrapers overhead the MLP, you will see in his lecture. Overhead too much 3D diffusion RESULTS IN OBJECT DISCRETENESS CONFUSION.( WHEN YOU ADOPT THE CINEMA AZIMUTH SPACING), you need to try fight physics and aid the separation with hard round diffusion to refract and bounce-separate top sounds towards the selfish bastard spot through image reinforcement preferably from the ideal Damaske and Wagener median plain” high separation” elevation points. The ARTNOVION JAYA might be the tool of choice for this task or half-Jayas im commissioning for tight corners. A top acoustical device manufacturer compared to the norm, classier too.

https://www.artnovion.com/product-ca...aya-w-diffuser



Finally I DID post in the kaleidescape forum the CEDIA 2019 entire demo script augmented by the latest pair of Topsmerssive reference clips: Spiderman Far From Home - Illusion and (yes Paramount I love you) CRAWL in Neural-X Glory! Remember to set your player at 60fps, no display changes allowed option 1 for hdmi out on the players dashboard. This should be trigerable by a control system for when doing scripts vs. serious movie watching where you will need 24fps.

Final Musings:
ON DOLBY CP-850 Home Atmos: What is unique to this super processor is that it uses the Cinema Renderer to take the bed channels and populate all speakers in the room with advanced steering, THEN it sends the objects around the expanded bed.

On the FINAL selection process of the Walls for the PH project. MICROLED may be DOA there. It turns out that the WALL image has been found by Blofeld, Me and Nigel too to have artifacting, not a comfortable Videophile Image in my view. SONY Crystal LED ate Samsungs lunch at Infocomm, CEDIA and apparently IFA despite tile structure noticeability in low adl scenes ( an innocuous effect taking things on balance we most have agreed though). Because of its giant broadcast monitor reference image C-LED has moved to first place in the final decision week for the PH. Blofeld will go see my #2 preferred videophile option, at half the dealer cost of Samsung and SONY. Microsoft selected it for their flagship store in London. From what I have seen I don’t blame them. Specifications mean so little in these new screenwalls currently.

I code named it the “Miami Screen” for it’s perfect condo applicability, it appears as a single giant flat frosted charcoal colored glass panel, it has a perfectly seamless optical coating encapsulating the LED’s and making them more defined enhancing the MTF, a great way to enjoy a pixel, Negative-Zilch reflectivity, superb pixel fill ratio (This is tres important in the conveyance of MTF i don’t hear anyone around here discussing that>>>start) and runs in the 110” size with just one 20 amp circuit, supercool to the touch, the wall lux is 85 farenheit 3 feet in front (but it is the optical nerve triggering artifacting we find disheartening - look forward to a future fix). The Sony also runs cool, front and back but requires more juice. LED Encapsulation into a substrate is common to both the leading contenders, it may just be a must have for a videophile screen wall.



Interesting both the SONY Crystal Led (the King in colorimetry , eye comfort and Videophile Nuance) and the not yet revealed “Miami Screen’s”true identity (maybe next CEDIA?) [Taiwanese made jewel] are both 1.2 pixel pitch but you cannot see pixel structure until you are 6 feet from the screen. As I said after looking at Microleds including the .5 LG, the benefits are not many places to be seen in comparison to these 2 reference 1.2s.

The DP, Planar and other Chinese made Led and Microleds lack Sony’s fidelity or the MS’s spectacular coating, they are bare led’s with texture and are not remotely this level of videophile grade, Blofeld (mr. perfectionist) and I have been looking carefully at this. The top 2 wallscreens at the moment are these 1.2 pitch proprietary devices. The Wall is at third for me, and Blofeld has confirmed nowhere near Crystal LED’s giant broadcast monitor look tour-de-force. Will SOLFAR be The C-Sony Crystal Led Penthouse Cinema of the Future? I will not mind it one bit.

Memories of the Very First Faroudja VP-100 serial 00001, VPH 1272, DNP fresnel lenticular 84”, Martin logan Monolith front, Sequel rears, Fosgate (Advanced steering Logic that became PL2).

How time flies, Martin Logan planar tech has a lot in common with ribbons, the rear projection acoustics are now coming back to play with wallscreens, the cycle has come full circle. But the Monoliths could not handle very well the high spl of Indiana Jones Father and Son evading the Mechersmiths’ machine gun bullets. PRO-Ribbon has solved that.

Ok folks that is all for now, all the best. But don’t miss Tony Grimanis Video which I will have someone post. Game changer for the ATMOS TOPS CINEMA SPACING and sidewall acoustical devices asymmetry.. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...l#post58643706

Till next CEDIA!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	archaeoacoustics 1.jpg
Views:	163
Size:	273.9 KB
ID:	2621826  
bjorg and Reddig like this.

Last edited by Lasalle; 10-04-2019 at 01:20 PM.
Lasalle is offline  
post #127 of 139 Old 09-30-2019, 05:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mmiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 4,386
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked: 527
^^^

That’s my boy!
audioguy and Reddig like this.

Mike Miles
[email protected]
mmiles is offline  
post #128 of 139 Old 10-03-2019, 04:13 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jjcook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,099
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 477 Post(s)
Liked: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
Ok folks that is all for now, all the best. But don’t miss Tony Grimanis Video which I will have someone post. Game changer for the ATMOS TOPS CINEMA SPACING and sidewall acoustical devices asymmetry..
Has the link to Tony's video been posted?
jjcook is online now  
post #129 of 139 Old 10-04-2019, 11:41 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
donaldk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,206
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcook View Post
Has the link to Tony's video been posted?
Here it is:


Peter has a few comments on Tony's teachings: "Here is the promised buttilegged video on Tony Grimani's excellent Kaleidescape seminar that coincides with many of my very own independently arrived immersion design practices (noticeable NO UNIFIED all format tops topology a la Trinnov Class). Tony's approach will result in better Topsmerssion, still, he seems opposed to wallscreen speaker positioning, he will come around.

Flash Update: Disney Toy Story 4, is Topsmerssive, several other Pixars too. Great progress, the problem remains in the MCU."
jjcook and Reddig like this.

Last edited by donaldk; 10-04-2019 at 02:05 PM.
donaldk is offline  
post #130 of 139 Old 10-08-2019, 04:05 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
donaldk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,206
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
Here is a note from Peter on his work on Topmersive experiences. He is very positive on the testing he did on my home HT (LOGE). I can't speak for other custom home HT's , but I can say to my ear's and eye's it exceeds anything I've experienced at CEDIA and other tradeshows. I hope some of you will be able to make the sessions being planned. (I'll try to edit in the pictures he included)
Here's the complete version including the pictures.

Peter's final thoughts on the Demo, Alcons and other CEDIA novelties.

Thanks to Alcons for letting me conduct the Topsmerssive Experiment and to all the willing guinea pig friends here. I have been encouraged by the feedback as to the worthiness of demanding from Hollywood that they come on board this mixing school of thought and I will address this with Dolby. It’s safe to say That SONY, Paramount, Warner and Lionsgate are totally OFF THE HOOK as demonstrated by their excellent examples in Topsmerssive mixing prowess during the experiment, a lot of them mastered from the cinema release and not remixed stupidly to the smaller screen, it is safe to assume all of the excellent exclusive to Kaleidescape tracks are not stinking remasterings for soundbars. Universal has Lucy, and several other good ones, Fox, I am not convinced yet Alita is Topsmerssive, it lacks a clean natural dynamic element, can’t quite point my finger on what it lacks but goes to show you that lighting up all the channels in a Trinnov multi-channel bargraph is not a guarantee of Topsmerssivenes so I am placing Fox right atop the mother bottom turd, Disney. Join me on this effort to wag the giant rodent by the tail and make the cinematic World of Disney Wonderful Again.

Besides all of the well documented barrage of mediocre mixing examples from Disney, where what once was conceived as good practice to mix the orchestra unto the sidewalls, this high minded Lucas Sound led practice has resulted in a cacophonous diffusive-confusive very un-discrete borscht of a sonic ALLOCENTRIC vomitif.

https://www.disneydigitalstudio.com/...vices-2/mix-7/

And if that is not bad enough as it is, Disney pulled out Dynaudio Esotar based monitors from one of their mix rooms and replaced it with QSC (courtesy of my friends at MIT, oi!). This crime against some audiophiles has resulted in the piercing of the sanctity of the transparency veil. FROM STUDIO TO HOME. Thus someone with a Dynaudio Topsmerssive setup at home where Disney mixes, like Ratatouille 5.1, Beauty and the Beast Live act.,Tomorrowland, and Doctor Strange 5.1, which sounded fabulously musical in neural -x, now confirmed with Ratatouille in Atmos all Disney releases have forced the harshness and lack of musicality of the QSC speakers down the chain and imposed this awful grating sound into our homes. This is the ultimate assault on our individual freedom of choice in our pursuit of happiness. QSC crapola for all! I witnessed in the future of cinema conference when Pat Griffis from Dolby’s VP office sold Disney and Pixar on the automated downstream workflow, in retrospect bad idea Pat.

Perhaps Disney needs a Topsmerssive demo to understand. I should try to attempt to arrange just that. While at it, installing a demo Alcons 4” RL-401 ribbon +8” system with 90x90 tops where the old Dynaudio system was could be the ticket. It could turnaround the QSC front end aggravated downstream auto workflow trainwreck (that constantly wrecks our movie watching existence) on a dime. ALCONS IS THE RX TO FIX DISNEY at the source.

THE ALCONS BOOTH DEMO INTRO YOUTUBE filmed by Reddig ( i misspoke twice, the African Archeoacoustic circles were 40k Years ago, not millions, when I said adaptation I meant habituation)
Be warned on my intelligibility, there is no hope I am even more difficult to understand in video than in copy.

Very moved to see today that in the Kscape thread I am not the only lunatic that prefers NON-LINEAR Scripts over regular movie watching, in my case focussed on the Topsmerssive aspects over linear movie watching. As I say The Best Possible Tool for scene analysis. Speaking of Topsmerssion here is my curated multichannel audio library of mostly egocentric mixes. Some errors like sacd’s purchased in stereo YUK, and some concerts that are allocentric but the content makes up in the excitement. The same issue of egocentric vs. allocentric recordings will be presented to DOLBY Music when i submit the best of these titles for ATMOS remixing. A big part of the time devoted to scene analysis when Andrew Poulain returns here on the 21st, last year he stayed for 7 hours and asked for a reprise this year. I am humbled.

https://www.discogs.com/user/cineramax/collection

I am proud there is very little ALLOCENTRIC classical music in that collection. Classical Music, DIFFUSIVE Church Like Music allocentric presentation acoustics. The drum was the instrument of choice in Africa’s egocentric echo sound stone circle sites of 40k years ago. Drums is the definitive multi channel instrument from yesteryear (remember I am positive this is a primal itch for us), the Moog, however, replaces the drum as the optimal atmos sonic pirouette sound object to take flight about the rooms. The vast majority of music titles I am asking Dolby to prioritize for ATMOS remixing incorporate some very good mooging.

BTW This is the 1975 Moog album I convinced first the artist and then Dolby to reissue in ATMOS from newly unearthed pristine Quad Tapes. Larry is the Michael Jordan of the Moog. What an honor.

.

Regarding SPL at the demo experiment: Steve B. is right that I should have played the script prior to the demo and adjust the volume for the loudest passages (RAMBO), for many Murphy audiovisual reasons this was not possible, it was an unrehearsed single shot. I must confess that when I pulled back the chair on the back row (towards the stacked rear right subs) very close to the wall I accidentally found myself seating maybe in the best seat in the house, a selfish bastard seat although only 18 inches away from a wall, I second SOWK’s similar comment on proximity to wall on the right side of that booth, the combination of the Alcons cylindrical dispersion with its wide directivity controlled angles explains for this excellent unexpected benefit, albeit mostly for MY individual SEAT. Call me a Selfish bastard. Back to volume, once I heard pigs flying I asked Walter for more and tried to go for the flying Hippopotamus. Did we come close to achieving it?


Why we alternated short clips highlighting different elements of the Topsmerssive bubble. From Archaeoacoustics book: (INSERT TO FOLLOW)



The 1) horseshoe-shaped rear band, this is something proven unique to the Alcons Audio 4” Ribbon and 8 “ at LOGE the scalability inside that U-shaped band as experienceable in La Salles is something IMHO NO AUDIOPHILE has ever experienced, from ant man small, to a medium-sized bright burn flying horizontally into the right wall, to the ginormous Off-World Colony Advertising Blimp in Bladerunner panning the entire sidewall, put this on your AVS HT MEET bucket list.

2) Is the extreme example of large object width channel use, Jumanji right wall becomes a giant drum, 3) very detailed use of tops, with robust pinpoint accuracy thanks to SONY, Paramount, Warner and Lionsgate for not remixing these titles for home use.





Why I wanted to do the demo this year? At dinner graciously organized by Ted C. I told Tom Back Alcon’s Owner “you have not heard an Alcons system sound this good.” He laughed at me like saying that’s both presumptuous AND audacious,” FOR A HOME THEATER” I added, “you have no idea, this system as well designed ( and Brad’s trigonometry and anal compulsive attention to detail was exhausting) as it was never meant to sound so over the top reference, this is the best-sounding home theater bed channel because of the cohesiveness and contiguous imaging smoothness with dynamic scalability and eery microarticulation therein [Front stage and Horseshoe] (plus it is transparently non fatiguing as F>>>k)”, even Arrow graciously commented to me and Brad that the bed channel is really something else.

There are many talented individuals and teams exceeding the client's wildest expectations every day with many brands in our industry, something else is at play in LOGE. “The Universe must have blessed it then” Ted C suggested after my lack of plausible explanation as to how it could sound so.Simply a top alternative for any enthusiast interested to sample. Would love to play a topsmerssive script for some of you @log E AVS MEET. Brad’s smoked hamburgers are tops.

When calibrating LOGE, Walter has 9 x m2’s in bed channel duty and he confessed “YOU CANNOT DO THIS WITH JBL” ask Brad. The M2 is a dual elliptical voice coil transducer, why use a 2 element transducer, that acts like a turbo when you can have one superbly dispersion controlling lightweight driver with a purely cylindrical waveform 1-20khz as opposed to coaxial, It is more consistent nearfield to far-field, at all decibels, the M2, not so much because of the turbo effect. Tom explained this to me at dinner (while we sketched future speakers lol) that is why the scaling is so purely lineal.


Remember, I was onto the next grueling pie-in-the-sky thing when my conscience is what forced me to revisit Alcons.






As I was moving at hyperspeed towards what feels like an interminably painful mission to Mars, the Penthouse Cinema completion, Brad’s PRO-RIBBON NIRVANA thing was bugging my head. I decided to screech on the brakes, drive for a mile in reverse and revisit a demo with Alcons as it is now more than ever a very worthy cause to experience first hand this LOGE tight scalable horshoe phenomenon. At SOLFAR You can see in the above pics that the separation azimuth of the tops is a constant 30 degrees from MLP, that is a one-seater optimization created to wrap the sounds, not in the somewhat compromised all format donut that is scripture to some Trinnov experts, but krispy Kremedom to at least 2 consultants ( i have proof in a Kaleidescape youtube class) I told Arnaud too to try to stop promoting so hard a unified format as the side effect appears to be creating donuts (holes in the middle above), Arnaud did not totally disagree, “depends on priorities, coverage versus...” selfish bastardom (screw coverage then - at the expense of a healthy payload of serotonin and endorphins ).

The above setup is designed to recreate the Houston Houston circling 18 Inches around the head with Super Hippopotamus Drop. In LOGE I estimate at 3 feet arms-length object wraparound, a super-significant achievement as it is a format-agnostic deploy the circling was expected by me at 6 feet around the head. Twice as good as expected, now i want to push Brad to push for a tighter headwrap, plus match the tops to the beds with the next gen bigger Alcons tops (CRMS SR HOR VER) for TOTAL BUBLE COHESIVENESS in Atmos, please upgrade Brad.

As to TOP Deployment Topographies, I am now not alone in espousing a design for CINEMA ATMOS (or setup 2 separate optimized systems to handle Neural X Pro as well), if you do the former, the imaging cross-format compromises on the lesser two of the three codecs are minuscule in comparison to the around the head, space invasion envelopment sense of exhilaration that otherwise YOU WILL NOT ENJOY. Decry the Donut. Besides Neural-X with tops laid out for ATMOS cinema, or even extreme selfish bastard 30 degrees constant azymuth can sound spectacularly superior, and AURO not bad at all.

That is what extreme selfish bastardom demands, which presents other challenges as tops MID BASS imaging is the most difficult of art forms presently as you tighten the spacing. That is where Trinnov 4 way bass management will be a lifesaver for the closer azimuth tops. The Trinnov 3D microphone and Alcons rl 401+8” CRMS-SR based bed takes care of the rest.

What else? Presently, like hinted above, who do I consider the most like-minded designer in this field? TONY GRIMANI. He also spouses Cinema azimuth ATMOS tops separation, and in a recent Kaleidescape Training, which I will shoot with my phone and post as a promotion to TONY and Kaleidescape for their extraordinary work in helping dismiss the currently accepted Krispy Kream un-Topsmerssive tops deployment practices in favor of the glorious promotion of TOPSMERSSION, thanks Kaleidescape for hiring Tony, super refreshing knowing I am not alone on these practices.

Asymmetry of side 2-D treatments is something I have independently arrived at, like TONY shows in his lecture. The only thing I disagree with Tony is the overuse of skyscrapers overhead the MLP, you will see in his lecture. Overhead too much 3D diffusion RESULTS IN OBJECT DISCRETENESS CONFUSION.( WHEN YOU ADOPT THE CINEMA AZIMUTH SPACING), you need to try fight physics and aid the separation with hard round diffusion to refract and bounce-separate top sounds towards the selfish bastard spot through image reinforcement preferably from the ideal Damaske and Wagener median plain” high separation” elevation points. The ARTNOVION JAYA might be the tool of choice for this task or half-Jayas im commissioning for tight corners. A top acoustical device manufacturer compared to the norm, classier too.

https://www.artnovion.com/product-ca...aya-w-diffuser





Finally I DID post in the kaleidescape forum the CEDIA 2019 entire demo script augmented by the latest pair of Topsmerssive reference clips: Spiderman Far From Home - Illusion and (yes Paramount I love you) CRAWL in Neural-X Glory! Remember to set your player at 60fps, no display changes allowed option 1 for hdmi out on the players dashboard. This should be trigerable by a control system for when doing scripts vs. serious movie watching where you will need 24fps.

Final Musings:
ON DOLBY CP-850 Home Atmos: What is unique to this super processor is that it uses the Cinema Renderer to take the bed channels and populate all speakers in the room with advanced steering, THEN it sends the objects around the expanded bed.

On the FINAL selection process of the Walls for the PH project. MICROLED may be DOA there. It turns out that the WALL image has been found by Blofeld, Me and Nigel too to have artifacting, not a comfortable Videophile Image in my view. SONY Crystal LED ate Samsungs lunch at Infocomm, CEDIA and apparently IFA despite tile structure noticeability in low adl scenes ( an innocuous effect taking things on balance we most have agreed though). Because of its giant broadcast monitor reference image C-LED has moved to first place in the final decision week for the PH. Blofeld will go see my #2 preferred videophile option, at half the dealer cost of Samsung and SONY. Microsoft selected it for their flagship store in London. From what I have seen I don’t blame them. Specifications mean so little in these new screenwalls currently.

I code named it the “Miami Screen” for it’s perfect condo applicability, it appears as a single giant flat frosted charcoal colored glass panel, it has a perfectly seamless optical coating encapsulating the LED’s and making them more defined enhancing the MTF, a great way to enjoy a pixel, Negative-Zilch reflectivity, superb pixel fill ratio (This is tres important in the conveyance of MTF i don’t hear anyone around here discussing that>>>start) and runs in the 110” size with just one 20 amp circuit, supercool to the touch, the wall lux is 85 farenheit 3 feet in front (but it is the optical nerve triggering artifacting we find disheartening - look forward to a future fix). The Sony also runs cool, front and back but requires more juice. LED Encapsulation into a substrate is common to both the leading contenders, it may just be a must have for a videophile screen wall.








Interesting both the SONY Crystal Led (the King in colorimetry , eye comfort and Videophile Nuance) and the not yet revealed “Miami Screen’s”true identity (maybe next CEDIA?) [Taiwanese made jewel] are both 1.2 pixel pitch but you cannot see pixel structure until you are 6 feet from the screen. As I said after looking at Microleds including the .5 LG, the benefits are not many places to be seen in comparison to these 2 reference 1.2s.

The DP, Planar and other Chinese made Led and Microleds lack Sony’s fidelity or the MS’s spectacular coating, they are bare led’s with texture and are not remotely this level of videophile grade, Blofeld (mr. perfectionist) and I have been looking carefully at this. The top 2 wallscreens at the moment are these 1.2 pitch proprietary devices. The Wall is at third for me, and Blofeld has confirmed nowhere near Crystal LED’s giant broadcast monitor look tour-de-force. Will SOLFAR be The C-Sony Crystal Led Penthouse Cinema of the Future? I will not mind it one bit.

Memories of the Very First Faroudja VP-100 serial 00001, VPH 1272, DNP fresnel lenticular 84”, Martin logan Monolith front, Sequel rears, Fosgate (Advanced steering Logic that became PL2).



How time flies, Martin Logan planar tech has a lot in common with ribbons, the rear projection acoustics are now coming back to play with wallscreens, the cycle has come full circle. But the Monoliths could not handle very well the high spl of Indiana Jones Father and Son evading the Mechersmiths’ machine gun bullets. PRO-Ribbon has solved that.

Ok folks that is all for now, all the best. But don’t miss Tony Grimanis Video which I will have someone post. Game changer for the ATMOS TOPS CINEMA SPACING and sidewall acoustical devices asymmetry.. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...l#post58643706

Till next CEDIA!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	cedia dinner.jpg
Views:	93
Size:	727.0 KB
ID:	2625210   Click image for larger version

Name:	Tom at Dinner.jpg
Views:	94
Size:	643.0 KB
ID:	2625212   Click image for larger version

Name:	hippopotamus grade.jpg
Views:	97
Size:	516.2 KB
ID:	2625214   Click image for larger version

Name:	Boston Whaler rib cage.jpg
Views:	93
Size:	565.9 KB
ID:	2625216   Click image for larger version

Name:	SOLFAR AM-1.jpg
Views:	103
Size:	100.4 KB
ID:	2625218  

Click image for larger version

Name:	microsoft.jpg
Views:	94
Size:	924.0 KB
ID:	2625220   Click image for larger version

Name:	Miami screen at Circus Square 1 (1).jpg
Views:	90
Size:	457.9 KB
ID:	2625222   Click image for larger version

Name:	mIAMI+sCREEN+mAGNUM.jpg
Views:	97
Size:	645.0 KB
ID:	2625224   Click image for larger version

Name:	archaeoacoustics 2.png
Views:	81
Size:	1.07 MB
ID:	2625446   Click image for larger version

Name:	dnp vph1272 1st Faroudja ld-100  doubler Martin Logan Fosgate quad.jpg
Views:	85
Size:	2.08 MB
ID:	2625448  

Lasalle and Reddig like this.

Last edited by donaldk; 10-08-2019 at 03:30 PM.
donaldk is offline  
post #131 of 139 Old 10-08-2019, 06:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
audioguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Not far from Atlanta - but far enough!
Posts: 9,742
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5095 Post(s)
Liked: 3948
Oh how I miss our friend Peter. So unique. So passionate. So special. Just reading his stuff gets my heart rate up. I simply can not quit smiling when I read his posts. As usual, I don't always understand 100% of what he writes, but I would rather read that than much of the other stuff about this hobby.


Lasalle. thanks for posting. Made my morning!!

Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][
Jeremiah 4:1-2

Last edited by audioguy; 10-08-2019 at 07:05 AM.
audioguy is offline  
post #132 of 139 Old 10-08-2019, 07:27 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Miami Beach, FL
Posts: 390
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 300 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
Is that a condo?
anjunadeep is offline  
post #133 of 139 Old 10-08-2019, 08:51 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Reddig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Central U.S.
Posts: 2,950
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 547 Post(s)
Liked: 1067
Thanks Lasalle. Seeing these amazing posts from my buddy Peter brings a tear to me eye. I miss those posts.

I had so much fun at CEDIA this year that I cannot wait until the next one! And I only spent under $2k on new gear!

JBL Pro/JTR/JVC/Denon/Oppo/Monoprice/Elite Screens/Furman/Seatcraft/Acoustimac/AudioQuest/Roku

Last edited by Reddig; 10-08-2019 at 08:56 PM.
Reddig is offline  
post #134 of 139 Old 10-08-2019, 08:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Reddig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Central U.S.
Posts: 2,950
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 547 Post(s)
Liked: 1067
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Oh how I miss our friend Peter. So unique. So passionate. So special. Just reading his stuff gets my heart rate up. I simply can not quit smiling when I read his posts. As usual, I don't always understand 100% of what he writes, but I would rather read that than much of the other stuff about this hobby.


Lasalle. thanks for posting. Made my morning!!
Excellent wording audioguy. I couldn't of said it better myself.

I was away from my computer for a week or so and Im just now reading his fantastic posts! Again thanks LaSalle.

JBL Pro/JTR/JVC/Denon/Oppo/Monoprice/Elite Screens/Furman/Seatcraft/Acoustimac/AudioQuest/Roku
Reddig is offline  
post #135 of 139 Old 10-09-2019, 03:09 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
donaldk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,206
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked: 186
@anjunadeep Yes this an apartment/penthouse.
anjunadeep likes this.
donaldk is offline  
post #136 of 139 Old 10-09-2019, 04:39 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Miami Beach, FL
Posts: 390
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 300 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
@anjunadeep Yes this an apartment/penthouse.
Interesting! What kind of sound isolation is done there to keep it from disturbing the neighbors? I thought the only way a home theater in a condo would really work is if it was literally an isolated "studio". Even hurricane glass has those weep holes.
anjunadeep is offline  
post #137 of 139 Old 10-10-2019, 03:10 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
donaldk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,206
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
Interesting! What kind of sound isolation is done there to keep it from disturbing the neighbors? I thought the only way a home theater in a condo would really work is if it was literally an isolated "studio". Even hurricane glass has those weep holes.
You better ask Peter directly. He has his twitter, is on another forum. Still has website(s) with contact details, in case you don't have those. I believe this is more an all out system for penthouses, with dedicated spaces, where this is less of a concern. But he has developed an immersive system for situations where it is an issue. He has been in appartments for a few years now upgrading to a nice one in Miami last year.

Edit: I am told it is designed to NC 65 sound insulation level.

Last edited by donaldk; 10-11-2019 at 06:23 PM.
donaldk is offline  
post #138 of 139 Old 10-11-2019, 07:21 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Miami Beach, FL
Posts: 390
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 300 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
You better ask Peter directly. He has his twitter, is on another forum. Still has website(s) with contact details, in case you don't have those. I believe this is more an all out system for penthouses, with dedicated spaces, where this is less of a concern. But he has developed an immersive system for situations where it is an issue. He has been in appartments for a few years now upgrading to a nice one in Miami last year.

Edit: I am told it is designed to NC 65 sound insulation level.
Thanks, that's very interesting, especially since the room looks so open. Miami condos, even the multi-million dollar ones are typically built like garbage which makes that all that more impressive. Before I bought my house I lived in a few pretty nice new ones down here and they were all pretty poorly built. People would build out the interiors nice, but, even in multi-million dollar condos you'd still hear your neighbors high heels above. Some are better than others, and I guess it bothers some people more than others.
anjunadeep is offline  
post #139 of 139 Old 10-11-2019, 08:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
donaldk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,206
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
Thanks, that's very interesting, especially since the room looks so open. Miami condos, even the multi-million dollar ones are typically built like garbage which makes that all that more impressive. Before I bought my house I lived in a few pretty nice new ones down here and they were all pretty poorly built. People would build out the interiors nice, but, even in multi-million dollar condos you'd still hear your neighbors high heels above. Some are better than others, and I guess it bothers some people more than others.
Yeah I remember Peter complaining about how in the Barco DCi demo studio he had in Miami, that he could only suspend the screen from the ceiling and having to use a metal frame, due to the flimsy walls.

On top of the sound proofing already mentioned: "There are 3 things, isolation, nearfield acoustics, and dynamic range and bass control for times of day". I would say the last three get more important as the isolation gets worse.
donaldk is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off