Home Theater Subwoofers - How Many & Which and How's Your Liftoff? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 198 Old 09-19-2019, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funk Audio View Post
If that works as well as it could, it is pritty cool. Physics can cause issues though, and a subwoofer is still limited by internal enclosure volume and power to determine output in the low frequencies. We are building a quad 24" for someone right now that is a bit smaller, less expensive, and will have at least as much output if not more with 5000 watts rms per driver. It might end up weighing a bit more though.
Hell your subs are absolute works of art compared to that giant.
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post #62 of 198 Old 09-19-2019, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
As I am renovating/upgrading my dedicated home theatre, I find myself questioning everything so my revamp gives me full satisfaction, without Adam Pelz having to come back repeatedly with me making more changes. HA! (Adam is coming out after my installer gets everything done!).

I currently have and have planned 2 JL Audio f212 subwoofers (2 12" woofers each sub, sealed) and 2 Paradigm Persona subwoofers (6 8" woofers each sub, sealed). Fast, tight, musical subs.
My theatre is 18' 3" wide, 25' long, 12' high!

In terms of square inches, now many inches do I have of planned subwoofers, and as some other AVS Forum members seem to love the 18" subwoofers, how many 18" subwoofers (sealed) do my subwoofers translate to? And how many such 18" subwoofers (sealed) do other AVS Forum member theatre owners have in their theatres to accomplish what they want in terms of bass performance and liftoff?

I use the term liftoff as I found that Wisdom Audio's CEDIA 2019 demo had that, where the bass was musical yet you could feel it under your rump/butt with some nice liftoff!

The area of a circle is π r2 (3.14159 times the radius squared of the circle). Radius is half of the diameter of a circle. JL Audio f212 has 2 12” woofers. 2 x 3.14159 x 6 x 6 = 226.2”
Paradigm Personal has 6 8” woofers. 6 x 3.14159 x 4 x 4 = 301.6”. So my planned subwoofers = 1,055.60”. An 18" woofer, 3.14159 x 9 x 9 = 254.47”. So my planned subwoofers = approximately 4 18” subwoofers.

So How Many and What Subwoofers Do You Have and How's Your Liftoff & Bass? And what's the dimensions of your theatre?
I think the common term is tactile response. I think the Rythmik FV15 and G25HP are both supposed to have some very nice tactile response, and they are also servo subs, which many say are more "musical"
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post #63 of 198 Old 09-19-2019, 01:28 PM
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Would be interesting to hear reasoning behind.
Here you have got some reading:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...s-concept.html
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post #64 of 198 Old 09-19-2019, 02:54 PM
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One other area to consider in enhancing your bass experience is the addition on D-Box to your theater. In addition to moving
With the action, it shakes with the LFE. I like the D-Box experience in general, the bass enhancement was a nice surprise. I would not just add bass shakers, but the combination with D-Box synergetic.

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post #65 of 198 Old 09-20-2019, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
As I am renovating/upgrading my dedicated home theatre, I find myself questioning everything so my revamp gives me full satisfaction, without Adam Pelz having to come back repeatedly with me making more changes. HA! (Adam is coming out after my installer gets everything done!).

I currently have and have planned 2 JL Audio f212 subwoofers (2 12" woofers each sub, sealed) and 2 Paradigm Persona subwoofers (6 8" woofers each sub, sealed). Fast, tight, musical subs.
My theatre is 18' 3" wide, 25' long, 12' high!

In terms of square inches, now many inches do I have of planned subwoofers, and as some other AVS Forum members seem to love the 18" subwoofers, how many 18" subwoofers (sealed) do my subwoofers translate to? And how many such 18" subwoofers (sealed) do other AVS Forum member theatre owners have in their theatres to accomplish what they want in terms of bass performance and liftoff?

I use the term liftoff as I found that Wisdom Audio's CEDIA 2019 demo had that, where the bass was musical yet you could feel it under your rump/butt with some nice liftoff!

So How Many and What Subwoofers Do You Have and How's Your Liftoff & Bass? And what's the dimensions of your theatre?

Steve you might want to read up on CEA testing and visit the Subwoofer forum, and maybe thread in my signature. Just the first few posts on first page IMHO would be helpful. 🙂

JL Audio is super nice and powerful (I still have my 113) and famous in audio circle but when it comes to producing full spectrum of bass for movies, there's simply no comparison whatsoever with 18 inchers with high Xmax from, for example, JTR. (There are other companies worth checking as well, but JTR is my favorite.)

Objectively this is proven by CEA testing. Subjectively is up to individual, but in my system the JTR goes way way way deeper for movies, and surprisingly cleaner in mid-bass for music, "faster," with a bigger "punch." YMMV.

I have JTR 1400 but the superstar of JTR lineup is JTR 2400, with tuning freq around 10 Hz 🥶. You have not heard true, clean deep bass until you hear these babies. Hope this helps.
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post #66 of 198 Old 09-20-2019, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Steve you might want to read up on CEA testing and visit the Subwoofer forum, and maybe thread in my signature. Just the first few posts on first page IMHO would be helpful. 🙂

JL Audio is super nice and powerful (I still have my 113) and famous in audio circle but when it comes to producing full spectrum of bass for movies, there's simply no comparison whatsoever with 18 inchers with high Xmax from, for example, JTR. (There are other companies worth checking as well, but JTR is my favorite.)

Objectively this is proven by CEA testing. Subjectively is up to individual, but in my system the JTR goes way way way deeper for movies, and surprisingly cleaner in mid-bass for music, "faster," with a bigger "punch." YMMV.

I have JTR 1400 but the superstar of JTR lineup is JTR 2400, with tuning freq around 10 Hz 🥶. You have not heard true, clean deep bass until you hear these babies. Hope this helps.
Thanks.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...er-thread.html

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post #67 of 198 Old 09-20-2019, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
I think the common term is tactile response. I think the Rythmik FV15 and G25HP are both supposed to have some very nice tactile response, and they are also servo subs, which many say are more "musical"
The specific sub is important but to get what Steve is looking for, it is all about physics. He is in a room with a lot of cubic footage and in order for him to "feel" the bass, the air in the room needs to be compressed - and that takes displacement from an appropriate number of subwoofers. And based upon my personal experience in a room a good bit smaller than his, he needs a lot more than just the equivalent of four 18s. Put a stack of 3 Seaton F18's (or equivalent from Funk, JTR, or .....) in each of the front two corners, and a stack of 2 in each of the rear two corners.

Or do what The Bland did and have Adam help you some other combination (e.g. Wisdom/Seaton)

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post #68 of 198 Old 09-28-2019, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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If you got the $$$$ is the UberSub the way to go?

http://keithyates.com/ubersub/

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
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post #69 of 198 Old 09-29-2019, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Four of these ought to do the trick (Seaton, DSS, and Funk Audio - eat your hearts out):


I am using also a subwoofer from Ascendo, a German manufacturer, since this spring. It's of course much smaller than the monster subwoofer above : it's the SMSG15 since my room is not that large (7 meter x 5 meter x 2.5 meter). I have installed various blacking out treatments to improve picture contrast but none so far to improve audio.


My dealer told me about Ascendo and so I decided to give it a try. My dealer used a labtop including a software to optimize the bass output. This software lets you set many filters to reduce or increase very narrow and defined frequency ranges. The result is such that I got a a very linear frequency sweep. See pictures below. Crossover frequency is 80 Hz. So, I think (and feel ) my bass is now very clear and defined but still very powerfull. I am extremely pleased and impressed with that subwoofer.
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post #70 of 198 Old 09-29-2019, 04:05 PM
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Currently have Dual JL F113 and for most part they have been okay. At closer to reference volume I can tell they are not up to par. Quality is hit or miss with these subs and reliability has been an issue for me unfortunately.

For an upgrade I am looking at 3x Bowers & Wilkins DB1D. That would be 6x 12” subs which hopefully will pressurize my room and sound good. Space is an issue so smaller sealed subs suit my setup better.
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post #71 of 198 Old 10-01-2019, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
If you got the $$$$ is the UberSub the way to go?

http://keithyates.com/ubersub/
I followed that link to find out more about that sub. Looks amazing. But the best find on the site was Keith's blog post about how he and his friends got Billy Joel's career started. Seriously it is a must-read.

Design by Rives...dollars by The Bogg

Click for my build thread
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post #72 of 198 Old 10-01-2019, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
If you got the $$$$ is the UberSub the way to go?

http://keithyates.com/ubersub/
Looks like.

Art
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post #73 of 198 Old 10-01-2019, 04:58 PM
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Getting eight more Seaton F18s on the 11th.

Art
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post #74 of 198 Old 10-01-2019, 05:32 PM
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Getting eight more Seaton F18s on the 11th.



Art


Eight MORE? I would ask why but I think the answer starts with, “why does a dog lick himself?” So what will the updated subwoofer layout look like?


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post #75 of 198 Old 10-02-2019, 06:20 AM
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Eight MORE? I would ask why but I think the answer starts with, “why does a dog lick himself?” So what will the updated subwoofer layout look like?


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Four stacked near each of the front corners behind the screen the other two now reside in the projection room enclosed to fire through the rear theater wall.

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Usually it's quality that matters not quantity.
Would really like to see here some measurement charts to compare different setups.
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post #77 of 198 Old 10-02-2019, 07:46 AM
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Usually it's quality that matters not quantity.
That's not what she said. The Seaton F18 has some nice enclosure options making them ideal for my room. The height and depth behind the screen allows me to upgrade significantly with no modifications to the room.

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post #78 of 198 Old 10-02-2019, 08:36 AM
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@Art
Yes, maybe. But then it would be great if you have then charts to compare before vs after the upgrade. Best wishes for the upgrade !
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post #79 of 198 Old 10-02-2019, 09:10 AM
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@Art
Yes, maybe. But then it would be great if you have then charts to compare before vs after the upgrade. Best wishes for the upgrade !
Just asking...is this because I'm not building for the Uber Subs or would you ask for charts there also ?

Art
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post #80 of 198 Old 10-02-2019, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
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Eight MORE? I would ask why but I think the answer starts with, “why does a dog lick himself?” So what will the updated subwoofer layout look like?
It should be clarified, the 8 new 18s are replacing 4 SubMersives behind the screen wall to compliment the 2 units at the rear. These will all be the Design Series DS18-20 variant which is the same 20" x 20" x 23.5" deep versions which allowed us to add the pair to the back wall of the room a few years ago. The 20" x 20" profile turned sideways allows us to create 2 stacks of 4 units behind Art's screen without significant reconstruction.

Much like the UberSub, the whole point is to almost always operate within linear limits and eliminate compression and minimize distortion, and maximize the potential of the sealed subwoofer by allowing them to operate into the single digit frequency range. Combined box volume and usable woofer displacement are what are needed if you start with a low distortion solution. The biggest benefits of this upgrade will be lower distortion below 25Hz, much greater headroom below 20-25Hz, easier calibration with all subs being the same, and overall more effortless presentation. All of those benefits will allow me to experiment more with shaping the lowest frequencies, made much easier with the recent Trinnov firmware upgrades, and to do so without straining the rest of the very important subwoofer range.

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post #81 of 198 Old 10-02-2019, 09:54 AM
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@Art
I am striktly neutral and do not question your decision at all - whatever brand you go for. I am sure you have very good reasons for your decision which I don't question at all. Honestly I have also absoluetly no idea whether UberSubs or those Seatons are better for you. I am just interested to see some charts and hopefully learning something when you'd comment those charts and set them in context with what you hear and feel. Ok ?
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post #82 of 198 Old 10-02-2019, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
It should be clarified, the 8 new 18s are replacing 4 SubMersives behind the screen wall to compliment the 2 units at the rear. These will all be the Design Series DS18-20 variant which is the same 20" x 20" x 23.5" deep versions which allowed us to add the pair to the back wall of the room a few years ago. The 20" x 20" profile turned sideways allows us to create 2 stacks of 4 units behind Art's screen without significant reconstruction.



Much like the UberSub, the whole point is to almost always operate within linear limits and eliminate compression and minimize distortion, and maximize the potential of the sealed subwoofer by allowing them to operate into the single digit frequency range. Combined box volume and usable woofer displacement are what are needed if you start with a low distortion solution. The biggest benefits of this upgrade will be lower distortion below 25Hz, much greater headroom below 20-25Hz, easier calibration with all subs being the same, and overall more effortless presentation. All of those benefits will allow me to experiment more with shaping the lowest frequencies, made much easier with the recent Trinnov firmware upgrades, and to do so without straining the rest of the very important subwoofer range.


Mark- sounds like a great upgrade. what are the benefits of stacking the subs vertically, which seems to be your typical approach? You mentioned once before but I can’t recall. Thanks


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post #83 of 198 Old 10-02-2019, 10:29 AM
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Mark- sounds like a great upgrade. what are the benefits of stacking the subs vertically, which seems to be your typical approach? You mentioned once before but I can’t recall. Thanks
Part of that is simply a matter of available space, while building and carrying monolithic, 6-8' tall subwoofers is no fun, and makes for many different cabinets with fewer configuration options. Let's also not lie that they are visually impressive. I would first point out that 2 subs next to each other like in your system vs 2 stacked at the center point between the 2 subs would be extremely similar in behavior. When you do get closer to full height of the room there are some benefits/changes to the vertical mode interaction which can be nice with cases of steep risers of 2-3 rows, and overall reducing some modal interactions. Width and especially the length modes are still most dominant, and that is where it can be nice to either get stacks of subs near the 1/4 width points of the room, or to create an array across the front wall, not all that different to how the UberSubs are placed in the front wall of the Hahn theater, but higher density/tighter spacing to cover the full subwoofer range, leaving just the room length interaction to deal with.

In case there's any confusion, I would re-iterate that the vertical interaction for most common room heights should be a nice perk but not top priority.
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post #84 of 198 Old 10-02-2019, 11:17 AM
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Mark- sounds like a great upgrade. what are the benefits of stacking the subs vertically, which seems to be your typical approach? You mentioned once before but I can’t recall. Thanks
The long answer is in DBA-thread I linked to earlier. The short answer you got from Mark Seaton.
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post #85 of 198 Old 10-08-2019, 05:51 AM
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I would be surprised if the "charts" show much difference. When you do what Art is doing (and what I recommend anyone do who can afford the cost and has room for placement) is you are buying headroom and allowing the individual subs to operate in a range where distortion is minimal. And with that headroom, there are tuning options that might not be available otherwise.

I have a client who has a GIGANTIC amount of cubic footage to deal with. He currently has 6 F18's but, my guess is, that he will eventually end up with 16 .... or more. While the bass in his room is incredibly clean, extended and powerful, there is simply not enough air displacement to provide the tactile feel he has heard in my room. Sounds like Art won't have that problem !!

Mark 10:45 ][Home Theater of The Month: The Oconee Theater][ Music by Leslie Austin on Spotify ][
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I would be surprised if the "charts" show much difference. When you do what Art is doing (and what I recommend anyone do who can afford the cost and has room for placement) is you are buying headroom and allowing the individual subs to operate in a range where distortion is minimal. And with that headroom, there are tuning options that might not be available otherwise.

I have a client who has a GIGANTIC amount of cubic footage to deal with. He currently has 6 F18's but, my guess is, that he will eventually end up with 16 .... or more. While the bass in his room is incredibly clean, extended and powerful, there is simply not enough air displacement to provide the tactile feel he has heard in my room. Sounds like Art won't have that problem !!

I have about 5900cu ft in the room but I have one thing which I've noticed to be uncommon,my theater is on an upper floor. The result is that the room structure shakes along with the air movement. It was only planned that way because I didn't want the children's bathrooms above the theater. I saw the older ones run over sinks, tubs and toilets too many times before the build in the old part of the house and we have no basement.

Art

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post #87 of 198 Old 10-08-2019, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
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I have about 5900cu ft in the room but I have one thing which I've noticed to be uncommon,my theater is on an upper floor. The result is that the room structure shakes along with the air movement. It was only planned that way because I didn't want the children's bathrooms above the theater. I saw the older ones run over sinks tubs and toilets to many times before the build in the old part of the house and we have no basement.

Art

They guy I was referring to has close to 10,000cf - and is in the basement. We, too, put our theater on the 2nd floor. When we bought here 6 years ago, the houses with basements were close to 6000 square feet and we were trying to downsize. While the 2nd floor does have some disadvantages, tactile response is not one of them.
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post #88 of 198 Old 10-08-2019, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I would be surprised if the "charts" show much difference. When you do what Art is doing (and what I recommend anyone do who can afford the cost and has room for placement) is you are buying headroom and allowing the individual subs to operate in a range where distortion is minimal. And with that headroom, there are tuning options that might not be available otherwise.
In Art's room we would see differences from modest shift in subwoofer location and going to the column. High level sweeps looking for compression will be different, and distortion measurements down low would be different. These are fun to quantify changes with, but it's always hard to say we need this specific target to have liftoff. It's more often possible to come up with some targets that all but guarantee results by shooting well beyond minimum requirements. As you mention, the calibration options I'm afforded with the new subs are equal or more important than just the added headroom. We also haven't yet recalibrated with the latest firmware extending the target curve editing down to 10Hz.

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post #89 of 198 Old 10-08-2019, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
In Art's room we would see differences from modest shift in subwoofer location and going to the column. High level sweeps looking for compression will be different, and distortion measurements down low would be different. These are fun to quantify changes with, but it's always hard to say we need this specific target to have liftoff. It's more often possible to come up with some targets that all but guarantee results by shooting well beyond minimum requirements. As you mention, the calibration options I'm afforded with the new subs are equal or more important than just the added headroom. We also haven't yet recalibrated with the latest firmware extending the target curve editing down to 10Hz.
Are your new subs you are referring to on your website yet?

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
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post #90 of 198 Old 10-09-2019, 04:32 AM
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Are your new subs you are referring to on your website yet?
These are different form factor variations on our F18 with the same acoustic performance which will be available through dealers. We installed 2 of the same DS18-20 modules at the rear of Art's room 2 years ago. These will go on the website in the future with a handful of other application specific designs including some shallow 8", 6", and 4" deep options with the same deep extension, and we'll even have a slightly bigger model with a sealed 21" woofer. These are part of our Design Series, where the DS18-12 (12" deep box), and DS18-20 (20" square face) are shown below. The DS18-20 can have the option of internal amplification, but the vast majority to be powered from our rack mounted amplifiers, especially when concealed behind a screen or stretched fabric.




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