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post #91 of 179 Old 10-17-2019, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
And for the average buyer, since this is often misunderstood, placing multiple subs in corners, 1/4 points or even midpoints only gives you a more similar seat-to-seat frequency response. It does not have anything to do with a nice smooth or flat frequency response at those locations. It does mean that when you start to apply PEQ, the seats with similar response behave the same.

Subs in corners gives you some extra gain, since you are energizing room modes in all 3 axes, so you generally will not get anything closely resembling a smooth flat frequency response.
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
I'm referring to similar frequency response across multiple seats in multiple rows, before any PEQ etc.

At a single seat, it is pretty trivial to get the subwoofer response that one desires. Keep the MLP out of any nulls, put a subwoofer pretty much anywhere you want, and go to work with a DSP. Not much chance nearby seats will sound the same, especially with one sub, multiple rows, etc.

Getting that same smooth response across multiple seating locations absolutely requires the use of a DSP, and depending on the method (Welti-Devantier, SFM ,MSO, Geddes, Lemay virtual sub), some combination of subwoofer location and seating location. In the case of Welti-Devantier, subs are placed in corners, mid points, or 1/4 points. This results in a similar seat-to-seat frequency response across a large listening area. However, because some locations are in the nulls of room modes, and others at peaks, while the frequency response at each seating location will be similar, the response will not be anything close to flat. However, since each seat is similar, you can now employ PEQ and it will affect each seat in a similar way, and you can improve the frequency response equally across quite a large listening area.
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Steve you might want to read up on CEA testing and visit the Subwoofer forum, and maybe thread in my signature. Just the first few posts on first page IMHO would be helpful. 🙂

JL Audio is super nice and powerful (I still have my 113) and famous in audio circle but when it comes to producing full spectrum of bass for movies, there's simply no comparison whatsoever with 18 inchers with high Xmax from, for example, JTR. (There are other companies worth checking as well, but JTR is my favorite.)

Objectively this is proven by CEA testing. Subjectively is up to individual, but in my system the JTR goes way way way deeper for movies, and surprisingly cleaner in mid-bass for music, "faster," with a bigger "punch." YMMV.

I have JTR 1400 but the superstar of JTR lineup is JTR 2400, with tuning freq around 10 Hz 🥶. You have not heard true, clean deep bass until you hear these babies. Hope this helps.
All of this begs a few questions using at minimum 4 subwoofers in 4 places with my Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channels) for my ongoing home theater upgraderemodel, as I am considering perhaps selling my 2 JL Audio f212 and 2 Paradigm Persona subwoofers and perhaps getting 4 of the JTR dual 18" subwoofers, with of course Trinnov Master Calibrator Adam Pelz coming out to do his setup/calibration magic and probably adding a QSC Q-Sys Core 100f to the mix for easier subwoofer setup/calibration (My revised/renovated dedicated theater will be 18'3" wide, 23'4" long, 12' high, with component racks and disc storage hidden at the very rear with cabinetry/shelves):

1. Generally, using the same 4 subwoofers either at the 4 room corners, at the quarter points of opposing walls, or at the mid points of all 4 walls, after PEQ and room correction/optimization by a top pro like Adam or Curt, etc, will one method of placement sound better, different, more musical, deeper for movies, etc than another? Or after PEQ and room correction/optimization, will the sonics be hard to distinguish?

2. Ported vs non-ported subwoofers. Cannga mentions his high regard for a JTR 2400 ported subwoofer. Can ported subwoofers be designed to be as "quick", musical and disappearing as non-ported subwoofers? E.G., in the JTR subwoofer line, how do ported vs non-ported subwoofers compare in this regard. (I realize many folks here are not that much into music, movies only, but I and some others use our systems for both music and movies.)

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post #92 of 179 Old 10-17-2019, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
*snip*

1. Generally, using the same 4 subwoofers either at the 4 room corners, at the quarter points of opposing walls, or at the mid points of all 4 walls, after PEQ and room correction/optimization by a top pro like Adam or Curt, etc, will one method of placement sound better, different, more musical, deeper for movies, etc than another? Or after PEQ and room correction/optimization, will the sonics be hard to distinguish?

2. Ported vs non-ported subwoofers. Cannga mentions his high regard for a JTR 2400 ported subwoofer. Can ported subwoofers be designed to be as "quick", musical and disappearing as non-ported subwoofers? E.G., in the JTR subwoofer line, how do ported vs non-ported subwoofers compare in this regard. (I realize many folks here are not that much into music, movies only, but I and some others use our systems for both music and movies.)
1. I don't think this is a one-sized fits all answer. In general, I think corner placement is best for efficiency but will be harder to make consistent across all seats. Mid-wall placement loses efficiency, but in general, it tends to yield a more consistent response (that can then be corrected). Either way, once calibrated, I think the primary differences between the set ups will be seat-to-seat consistency; the area in the sweet spot will likely not suffer from your choice here.

2. Yes, a ported sub can be just as musical -- I don't know if that particular JTR model is, though.
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post #93 of 179 Old 10-17-2019, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
All of this begs a few questions using at minimum 4 subwoofers in 4 places....

....Ported vs non-ported subwoofers. Cannga mentions his high regard for a JTR 2400 ported subwoofer. Can ported subwoofers be designed to be as "quick", musical and disappearing as non-ported subwoofers? E.G., in the JTR subwoofer line, how do ported vs non-ported subwoofers compare in this regard. (I realize many folks here are not that much into music, movies only, but I and some others use our systems for both music and movies.)
Steve, first some caveats: my JL E112 is not as "powerful/good" as your JL F212, and I have not listened to JTR sealed subwoofers, only the ported JTR 1400. All comments applied to my system only and subjected to my bias/personal preference; I can't tell what you'll hear (of course). Having said all that, I have been playing enough with so many subwoofers over so many years, so here we go:

Subjectively, the ported JTR 1400 is both "faster" (audiophile term frequently frowned upon, but I know I'm safe with you) and deeper than JL E112. Came to me as a complete surprise as JTR is A, ported, and B, has really large driver (both rightly or wrongly historically linked to a "slower" sound). JL has a reputation of being fast in audiophile circles, but sounds ponderous next to JTR 1400.

Objectively, any JTR will walk all over any JL of approx. equivalent cost, or cost no object. There is just simply no comparison: the 18" deep Xmax JTR driver is among THE most powerful driver used in "commonly available" commercial subwoofers nowadays. JL at 12/13 inches is bringing a knife to a gun fight. At equivalent price (around $2000) the gap between JTR 1400 and JL E112 is the size of Grand Canyon, subjectively and objectively, IMHO.

Ported vs Sealed: There have been thousands upon thousands of argument on this topic and I have nothing worthy to contribute. But I believe the ported JTR 2400 and 4000 is at this point vastly more popular among JTR fans because it plunges into regions that no one (no one, see Data Bass chart on first post of my JTR signature below) else goes. Ported does have significant advantage in the 15-30 Hz range (lots of movie sound effects are in this range) AND it sounds "fast" and clean. If you are a fan of ultra deep bass, JTR 2400 and 4000 are the no-regret, creme de la creme purchase.

Music vs. Movies: For movies my vote is clearly for ported as the region from 15-30 is important in movies, and this is where the ported design shines. For music, in my system the ported JTR sounds faster than sealed JL - but this is a subjective observation so YMMV.

My vote/bias/humble opinion: If I were to start buying subwoofers today for combined movie/music system, there is very little doubt it's the JTR 2400. The JTR 4000 doubles power at lower cost, but if cost and space allow, probably better to get 2 JTR 2400's than 1 JTR 4000. 2 JTR 2400's give you same power IIRC as 4000, give smoother room response, and are easier to manage physically. That said if you have the room, I'm not going to stop you from buying the 4000 :-) (the "king" of subwoofer). BTW, if you are talking about 4 JTR 4000's or 4 JTR S2's, you'll have one of the most powerful bass on this planet. I have just one humble JTR 1400 and my room sometimes shakes like the world is ending.

Bottom line: Despite of my enthusiasm, does not hurt to order the ported JTR 4000 or sealed JTR S2 and have a shoot out with your F212. For movies there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind the JTR will kill in both extension (ultra deep bass) and power (loud and clean). For music just listen for yourself.
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post #94 of 179 Old 10-18-2019, 07:25 AM
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^^


To make Cannga's statement a bit more generalized, I would change one thing he said: "If I were to start buying subwoofers today for combined movie/music system, it would come from one of the well respected ID companies - JTR, Funk Audio or Seaton".

Funk has some outstanding subs, with his newly announced 18's at $2500. See HERE for more information. Or you could put 4 of Nathan's favorites in your room - his 21s. Steve, I recommend you call Nathan (Funk) and tell him what you are doing, and get his input And I would call Mark (Seaton) and Jeff at JTR. And lastly, I would also ask Adam. He's probably calibrated all of those subs and who knows what else. ANY of those subs in the hands of Adam will move you to the very top of possible LFE audio in your room - and a completely different audio experience than you have had previoulsy.

I tried to suggest to Steve prior to him creating his current sub configuration that any of the above names would provide him superior performance and far superior price/performance than what he chose. I can say I have heard the JLs and the Seaton F18s in the same room. Not even close. The JLs go due south at around 20Hz and the Seatons (and Funks) and JTRs) easily extend into single digits. In today's world, there is NO reason, IMO, to buy a "Brick and Mortar" sub, given the other options available.
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post #95 of 179 Old 10-18-2019, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I hope that some of my JTR friends will forgive me if I try to answer some of your questions.

If you are going to have a professional calibrator help you with your system, then he can also help to determine the best location for the subwoofers. And, that may take some experimentation with different placement options. The best location is somewhat room dependent, vis-a-vis listening positions dependent, and can't always be determined in advance. If your build depends on your ability to select subwoofer placement in advance, then I would consult the calibrator who is going to have to dial-in your final frequency response, and get his advice on subwoofer placement.

The answer to your first question just involves some experimentation. The answer to your second question is more complicated than that. You haven't said exactly why you want to upgrade from your current subs, but I assume you are chasing more significant low-bass effects. Even a pair of Cap 2400's would have much more low-frequency SPL and TR (tactile response) than your current four subs have. Any good subwoofer can sound good with music, but some subwoofers are more noticeable than others, so when you speak of the four Cap 2400's "disappearing", I have some concern.

Too me, it's not so much that large, powerful ported subwoofers can't be as quick as sealed subs, it is more the fact that they produce so much more low-frequency SPL and TR than you are currently used to. That will add to the perception of bass weight, compared to the subs you currently have. The big ported JTR subs are often described as violent, and I think that is a valid description. Would you like that deep-bass SPL and TR violence for movies? I absolutely think that you would. Would the four large ported subwoofers blend or disappear in the same way that your current subs do for music? I'm not as sure.

You obviously have a lot of money invested in your current subs, and will be investing quite a bit in your new ones as well. If I were you, I wouldn't do that without some auditions. One way would be to try to find someone in your area with large ported subwoofers who would be willing to let you listen to some of your music with them. A better way would be to order some ported subwoofers, from a couple of different sources, to test them in your own room before jumping all-in with an order for four subs.

For instance, I might order one JTR Cap2400 and one Rythmik FV25HP, or one Rythmik FV18. Test both of the subs you are auditioning for both movies and music. If both give you the right combination of blending for music, and the deep-bass and TR that you are looking for with movies, then multiples of that sub will do the same thing, on an even larger scale. If one sub seems better to you for movies and the other seems better for music, then you will have a choice to make. And, it's a choice that only you can make.

For the amount of investment involved, and with your obvious financial resources, I would do this if I were you. Going from a sealed subwoofer to a really powerful ported sub can be an eye-opening experience. Going to four of them all at once will be even more so. Of course, you could also consider buying a single sealed JTR sub to test. All current JTR subs are maximized for strong low-frequency performance. And, the sealed JTR subs will be more potent in that respect than your current subs are. Four RS1's, or especially four RS2's, would give you very significant bass capabilities, even in a roughly 5100^3 room.

My best advice is to find a way to audition some ported subs so that you can answer your second question to your own satisfaction. If you do, I have no doubt that you will end-up with a terrific sound system. Meanwhile, reading Section VIII of the Guide, linked in my signature, may be of some benefit.

Regards,
Mike
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
^^


To make Cannga's statement a bit more generalized, I would change one thing he said: "If I were to start buying subwoofers today for combined movie/music system, it would come from one of the well respected ID companies - JTR, Funk Audio or Seaton".

Funk has some outstanding subs, with his newly announced 18's at $2500. See HERE for more information. Or you could put 4 of Nathan's favorites in your room - his 21s. Steve, I recommend you call Nathan (Funk) and tell him what you are doing, and get his input And I would call Mark (Seaton) and Jeff at JTR. And lastly, I would also ask Adam. He's probably calibrated all of those subs and who knows what else. ANY of those subs in the hands of Adam will move you to the very top of possible LFE audio in your room - and a completely different audio experience than you have had previoulsy.

I tried to suggest to Steve prior to him creating his current sub configuration that any of the above names would provide him superior performance and far superior price/performance than what he chose. I can say I have heard the JLs and the Seaton F18s in the same room. Not even close. The JLs go due south at around 20Hz and the Seatons (and Funks) and JTRs) easily extend into single digits. In today's world, there is NO reason, IMO, to buy a "Brick and Mortar" sub, given the other options available.



The good news here is I can "overpower" and have it all for movies, and the Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP has 29 memories (and more via USB stick) so i can have different modes for different types of movies and music. Adam Pelz when he comes can work with me to set up these modes. For music, the subwoofer power can be turned down to avoid too much shaking and be equivalent to what I hear at good musical venues in terms of bass and mid-bass. Moving last May to the Trinnov SSP gives me great flexibility in this regard! Adam already advised placement at mid-points, quarter points of side walls, or all 4 corners, whatever works for me - I'm just wondering if in the end after PEQ and room optimization one placement scheme will sound better than the others at the MLP, if anyone can say from experience in this regard.

I once had three ported Aerial SW12 subwoofers. Very musical. However, two JL Audio f212s non-ported are better, not necessarily more musical but simply more output and ease. So I have had ported subwoofers which I did consider to be quite musical.

If I sell my current subs and buy four of the JTRs I won't come out way behind $$$ and I sort of think I'll be guarenteed the "liftoff" factor when I want it yet still get all the musicality I need due to Adam Pelz's calibration and setup expertise and his ability to set different memories for the bass and mid-bass with the Trinnov SSP.

As you may know, Adam does great work but it does cost $$. I am not gonna experiment and move subs around as I will end up back in the hospital and have my other hip replaced! And Adam is super busy, just got back from Tel Aviv, its best if I can get it all ready for Adam to do his magic for if I add/change thereafter I may have to wait until he can schedule to be back in this area and could cost additional $$. So I am simply trying to use some objective overkill and evaluate what others have to say before I make any changes/choice, as my theater upgrade is taking time and I want to get it "right" without hassling and tweaking thereafter (for once in my life) so that Adam can do his magic and have it done once and for all!

Again, I appreciate, respect Mike's statement that "Would you like that deep-bass SPL and TR violence for movies? I absolutely think that you would. Would the four large ported subwoofers blend or disappear in the same way that your current subs do for music? I'm not as sure." But when Adam comes out we will also do listening and get the right sub settings for both different types of movies and music - there is no reason why we can't make the subs "disappear" as necessary to be musical. And just think of how pipe organ will sound!

Also, I do have the space at the quarter points of the side walls for four JTR Captivator 4000ULF-ST (ported) as they are 28″ x 58″ x 20.5″ (HxWxD). What's important here is the height will not interfere with my on wall Aerial Acoustics 7LCRs (6) as they will be mounted with center tweeters a foot higher than the tweeters of the floorstanding Aerial Acoustics 7ts up front (3), plenty of room for the width, and the depth of 20.5" is fine as the aisles will be at least 36" on each side! On the other hand, contemplating four JTR Captivator S2 (sealed),they are 40″x21″x18″
(HxWxD), and although this height of 40" might be workable I think the 28" height of the ported model is preferable.

Mid-points of four walls won't work for me for sub placement, as front center Aerial Acoustics 7t would be right in front of a subwoofer, and cabinetry at the back. Corners could work but back left corner is where doorway into theater is and sub would have to be placed some out of corner. So quarter points of side walls are best, so long as subwoofers are not SO DEEP as to intrude too much into the 36" aisles on each side of two rows of seating and the back row riser. I will do some more checking on Funk and Seaton in addition to JTR re whats available in terms of performance, cost and dimensions in terms of fitting with my renovated/upgraded theater.

Chuck/Audioguy - "I tried to suggest to Steve prior to him creating his current sub configuration that any of the above names would provide him superior performance and far superior price/performance than what he chose. I can say I have heard the JLs and the Seaton F18s in the same room. Not even close. The JLs go due south at around 20Hz and the Seatons (and Funks) and JTRs) easily extend into single digits. In today's world, there is NO reason, IMO, to buy a "Brick and Mortar" sub, given the other options available." YEA! YEA! I just didn't wanna mess with the hassles of selling and shipping my 2 JL Audio f212s, and was back then not realizing just how extensive and OCD I was gonna get in my theater mods! But more and more I am thinking "Listen to Chuck". HA! Besides, my installers guys can pack the subs for me (lift - no sh_t) and I can arrange a freight company to pickup and strap to pallet (as I found out when I sold and shipped a pair of Aerial 7ts). Even though my 4 current subwoofers will be plenty nice, I do want to ensure I get that "liftoff" and thanks to flexibility with the Trinnov SSP Adam can put different settings in memory for different types of music and movies so I should end up being completely happy rather than mostly happy!

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post #96 of 179 Old 10-18-2019, 11:02 AM
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If you have not already, call Adam and ask him these questions. My personal opinion is that you will be fine if you stick your subs in each of the 4 corners. While mid-wall or 1/4 wall might be potentially better, corner placement (in addition to getting some additional output), does potentially create less "cosmetic" issues, which is why I chose those locations in my last two theaters. But again, I would ask Adam, since he has far more experience than I and he will be doing the calibration. Put two (or more )18's in every corner, and you should be a very happy camper.

I can't comment on all subs, but it is not uncommon for one sub to "seem to have" more output below, say, 40Hz than another even if they have identical frequency response. Some will prefer that, but I'm not one of them. While I certainly want low end weight and extension, not at the expense of mid/upper bass slam. I think it is very important, given the effort and expense you are going through, to maybe spend a bit more money and go visit a couple of theaters to accurately determine you're LFE preferences prior to making a product decision. And then you won't have any regrets AFTER it is too late to do anything about it.
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post #97 of 179 Old 10-19-2019, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Getting eight more Seaton F18s on the 11th.

Art
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Four stacked near each of the front corners behind the screen the other two now reside in the projection room enclosed to fire through the rear theater wall.

Art
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
Usually it's quality that matters not quantity.
Would really like to see here some measurement charts to compare different setups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
That's not what she said. The Seaton F18 has some nice enclosure options making them ideal for my room. The height and depth behind the screen allows me to upgrade significantly with no modifications to the room.

Art
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
It should be clarified, the 8 new 18s are replacing 4 SubMersives behind the screen wall to compliment the 2 units at the rear. These will all be the Design Series DS18-20 variant which is the same 20" x 20" x 23.5" deep versions which allowed us to add the pair to the back wall of the room a few years ago. The 20" x 20" profile turned sideways allows us to create 2 stacks of 4 units behind Art's screen without significant reconstruction.

Much like the UberSub, the whole point is to almost always operate within linear limits and eliminate compression and minimize distortion, and maximize the potential of the sealed subwoofer by allowing them to operate into the single digit frequency range. Combined box volume and usable woofer displacement are what are needed if you start with a low distortion solution. The biggest benefits of this upgrade will be lower distortion below 25Hz, much greater headroom below 20-25Hz, easier calibration with all subs being the same, and overall more effortless presentation. All of those benefits will allow me to experiment more with shaping the lowest frequencies, made much easier with the recent Trinnov firmware upgrades, and to do so without straining the rest of the very important subwoofer range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwthacker View Post
Mark- sounds like a great upgrade. what are the benefits of stacking the subs vertically, which seems to be your typical approach? You mentioned once before but I can’t recall. Thanks


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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Part of that is simply a matter of available space, while building and carrying monolithic, 6-8' tall subwoofers is no fun, and makes for many different cabinets with fewer configuration options. Let's also not lie that they are visually impressive. I would first point out that 2 subs next to each other like in your system vs 2 stacked at the center point between the 2 subs would be extremely similar in behavior. When you do get closer to full height of the room there are some benefits/changes to the vertical mode interaction which can be nice with cases of steep risers of 2-3 rows, and overall reducing some modal interactions. Width and especially the length modes are still most dominant, and that is where it can be nice to either get stacks of subs near the 1/4 width points of the room, or to create an array across the front wall, not all that different to how the UberSubs are placed in the front wall of the Hahn theater, but higher density/tighter spacing to cover the full subwoofer range, leaving just the room length interaction to deal with.

In case there's any confusion, I would re-iterate that the vertical interaction for most common room heights should be a nice perk but not top priority.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Getting eight more Seaton F18s on the 11th.

Art
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Four stacked near each of the front corners behind the screen the other two now reside in the projection room enclosed to fire through the rear theater wall.

Art
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
Usually it's quality that matters not quantity.
Would really like to see here some measurement charts to compare different setups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
That's not what she said. The Seaton F18 has some nice enclosure options making them ideal for my room. The height and depth behind the screen allows me to upgrade significantly with no modifications to the room.

Art
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
It should be clarified, the 8 new 18s are replacing 4 SubMersives behind the screen wall to compliment the 2 units at the rear. These will all be the Design Series DS18-20 variant which is the same 20" x 20" x 23.5" deep versions which allowed us to add the pair to the back wall of the room a few years ago. The 20" x 20" profile turned sideways allows us to create 2 stacks of 4 units behind Art's screen without significant reconstruction.

Much like the UberSub, the whole point is to almost always operate within linear limits and eliminate compression and minimize distortion, and maximize the potential of the sealed subwoofer by allowing them to operate into the single digit frequency range. Combined box volume and usable woofer displacement are what are needed if you start with a low distortion solution. The biggest benefits of this upgrade will be lower distortion below 25Hz, much greater headroom below 20-25Hz, easier calibration with all subs being the same, and overall more effortless presentation. All of those benefits will allow me to experiment more with shaping the lowest frequencies, made much easier with the recent Trinnov firmware upgrades, and to do so without straining the rest of the very important subwoofer range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwthacker View Post
Mark- sounds like a great upgrade. what are the benefits of stacking the subs vertically, which seems to be your typical approach? You mentioned once before but I can’t recall. Thanks


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Are your new subs you are referring to on your website yet?
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
These are different form factor variations on our F18 with the same acoustic performance which will be available through dealers. We installed 2 of the same DS18-20 modules at the rear of Art's room 2 years ago. These will go on the website in the future with a handful of other application specific designs including some shallow 8", 6", and 4" deep options with the same deep extension, and we'll even have a slightly bigger model with a sealed 21" woofer. These are part of our Design Series, where the DS18-12 (12" deep box), and DS18-20 (20" square face) are shown below. The DS18-20 can have the option of internal amplification, but the vast majority to be powered from our rack mounted amplifiers, especially when concealed behind a screen or stretched fabric.



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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
If you have not already, call Adam and ask him these questions. My personal opinion is that you will be fine if you stick your subs in each of the 4 corners. While mid-wall or 1/4 wall might be potentially better, corner placement (in addition to getting some additional output), does potentially create less "cosmetic" issues, which is why I chose those locations in my last two theaters. But again, I would ask Adam, since he has far more experience than I and he will be doing the calibration. Put two (or more )18's in every corner, and you should be a very happy camper.

I can't comment on all subs, but it is not uncommon for one sub to "seem to have" more output below, say, 40Hz than another even if they have identical frequency response. Some will prefer that, but I'm not one of them. While I certainly want low end weight and extension, not at the expense of mid/upper bass slam. I think it is very important, given the effort and expense you are going through, to maybe spend a bit more money and go visit a couple of theaters to accurately determine you're LFE preferences prior to making a product decision. And then you won't have any regrets AFTER it is too late to do anything about it.
Thanks for all the good info. This leads up to my next post and what I've decided to do.

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post #98 of 179 Old 10-19-2019, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Today I had a long phone conversation with Mark Seaton. Really nice of Mark and he was out with his kids having fun at the time! Mark and I go way back on AVS Forum and hung around together at CES eons ago like 2002. When Mark was in college and on this forum in the early 2000s he worked for a local Chicago high-end audio dealer installing high-end speakers like Wilson so Mark not only understands subwoofers but he also understands what is musical in terms of bass.This is very important to me, as I am into movies AND music and go to a lot of concerts in excellent acoustic venues like the Phoenix Musical Instrument Museum, Mesa Arts Center and The Nash (Downbeat Magazine's best jazz club).

We discussed my old vs new theater upgrade and renovation in detail with Mark, including what I want from my subs (liftoff for movies but musicality especially for music, as unlike many folks here I am a "true" audiophile - HA!); that I won't be happy if my subs can't result in being musical like they have been. We discussed my general placement concerns (3 Aerial Acoustics 7t floorstanders up front, 6 Aerial 7LCRs on wall, 13 inceiling Triad speakers, on wall speakers will have tweeters in middle and are 38" high and will be mounted starting at about 40" off floor so subwoofers can't interfere with that; at rear of theatre 14" on each side to entryway and to cabinets on other side; etc).

From our discussion I gleaned that it will be "cleaner" and just as good sounding putting external subwoofer amplifiers "hidden" in the Mid-Atlantic racks inside the rear cabinetry (to be built soon) as opposed to self-powered (meaning that some of the dedicated 15 amp circuits around the theatre can be covered up in the renovation as we don't need them, and that my installer will wire subwoofer cabling for this appropriately). Also, that mixing and matching subwoofers can make calibration/PEQ/optimization much more complicated/difficult; best practice to use all of his subwoofers if I'm getting any or in the alternative use only my JL Audio f212 pair up front or my Paradigm Persona pair up front; and more of Seaton subs in the rear. Of course this would result in more liftoff in the rear of the room than the front, thus I realized best to sell all of my current JL Audio and Paradigm subwoofers and simply get Seatons. Especially since Mark assured me that regardless of woofer size, that once Mark, or in this case Adam Pelz, does his setup and calibration magic, that Mark is certain I will be most happy with the result sonically for both movies and music particularly as Adam can set different memories with different bass settings in the Trinnov SSP.

Mark also exlained if due to room concerns using all wall midpoints, side or front wall quarter points, or room corners doesn't work, that a hybrid approach still will work well, such as quarter-points of front screen wall (and fact that Aerial 7ts will be 3-4 feet in front, perhaps even directly in front, of subwoofers is not an issue, per Mark); and rear quarter points of side walls or rear corners (Sounds like Mark's new designs may fit in corners, but if not due to entryway having 14" space on one side wall where door opens and closes, the placement forward a bit). [For placement on side walls, a concern is aisles will be 36", and we want to leave sufficient walkway space - a 20" deep subwoofer, add a few inches in back to wall and for grill, only leaves about a foot of walkway, not a good idea especially as I've been a personal injury lawyer for 40 years. HA!)

The end result of our conversation is that I am going to sell my current subwoofers and simply get new Seaton subwoofers. As my installer Gery Behm, Technology @ Home. net has worked up all of the positioning for all the speakers and details of the room, he is going to discuss all the details with Mark and they will then recommend the Seaton subwoofers for my needs, probably 8 18" or possibly 6 21" (new models), and placement positions, ensuring sub placement and size doesn't interfere with the geometrics of the theater. Note that for Mark's 18" subs four of them will run on one amplifier in the component rack, and for Mark's new 21" subs three of them will run on one amplifier in the component rack.

Glad to get this figured out as my installer starts running cabling for speakers, subwoofers, etc this week, as my framer has done his part (leaving stuff exposed for now for wiring, to complete framing thereafer wiring and electrical outlets are done).

Thanks to everyone for some good advise. Yea Audioguy I should have listened to you months ago! However, I started with somewhat of an upgrade and renovation, and moved gradually into a full scale upgrade and renovation as time and the project went along.
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post #99 of 179 Old 10-20-2019, 07:12 AM
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^^ Steve: Good move. Eight 18's ought to move you close to LFE Nirvana. And you will finally understand the difference between the kind of great quality subs available from Internet Direct vs Brick and Mortar. I am not familiar with any B&M subs that can reach the depths of your soon to be installed 18's (or 21's), but there may be some. I promise, the improvement will not be subtle. With Mark's subs and Adam's calibration, you will have quite the theater.


Congrats!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
^^ Steve: Good move. Eight 18's ought to move you close to LFE Nirvana. And you will finally understand the difference between the kind of great quality subs available from Internet Direct vs Brick and Mortar. I am not familiar with any B&M subs that can reach the depths of your soon to be installed 18's (or 21's), but there may be some. I promise, the improvement will not be subtle. With Mark's subs and Adam's calibration, you will have quite the theater.


Congrats!!
Chuck/Audioguy, thank you for "pushing" me on this! (And for breaking my retirement bank account!)

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post #101 of 179 Old 10-20-2019, 06:04 PM
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Congrats Steve. I was just about to post here asking what you felt you were missing with your already substantial firepower. Have you experienced a theatre that exceeded your current bass experience? I see that you chose Seaton subs and look forward to hearing your impressions of them....cough cough get the 21s lol. I would absolutely recommend the option where you have a rack mounted amplifier rather than individual plate amps. Our JLs have built in amps and dsp units and although i didnt have a lot of problems i had enough issues to realize i want separately mounted amps next time. That way if there are any amp issues it doesn't mean lugging the whole thing to the shop.
From an audiophile pov I give high marks to the JL but there are many options available now that weren't available when I bought my set. I don't have a huge theatre so I don't really think I'm missing much in the bass and if I am it would not be enough for me to go through the work of selling and buying something else. Keep us posted!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
Congrats Steve. I was just about to post here asking what you felt you were missing with your already substantial firepower. Have you experienced a theatre that exceeded your current bass experience? I see that you chose Seaton subs and look forward to hearing your impressions of them....cough cough get the 21s lol. I would absolutely recommend the option where you have a rack mounted amplifier rather than individual plate amps. Our JLs have built in amps and dsp units and although i didnt have a lot of problems i had enough issues to realize i want separately mounted amps next time. That way if there are any amp issues it doesn't mean lugging the whole thing to the shop.
From an audiophile pov I give high marks to the JL but there are many options available now that weren't available when I bought my set. I don't have a huge theatre so I don't really think I'm missing much in the bass and if I am it would not be enough for me to go through the work of selling and buying something else. Keep us posted!
Amplifiers will be rack mount. 6-8 of 18" or 21"ers depending upon what Mark and my installer recommend after going over specifics and peculiarities of my theater and setup and practical placement options. I just want to get that deep bass that you feel. This is OVERKILL. Since Adam Pelz will be coming to calibrate once everything is all done, I want to have it all done so all Adam as to do is his magic and its all done! Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP will allow Adam to set different memories for movies as well as music so I can get the best of both worlds.

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post #103 of 179 Old 10-21-2019, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
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I don't have a huge theatre so I don't really think I'm missing much in the bass and if I am it would not be enough for me to go through the work of selling and buying something else.

You would be surprised what you might be missing. Maybe not in the headroom/max SPL/pants flapping environment, but the additional "weight" of the extra ~15Hz you don't have really can add to the overall immersive experience. I'm certainly not suggesting that you swap out what you have, but the advantages of some of today's better subs are very real.
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^^^ yeah sometimes it's better not to know what is missing, lol. As I mentioned in the other thread, I had one sub out of four with reversed polarity. After correcting that and tweaking delay on my rear subs I have more headroom at 20hz and the rolloff below is much shallower. I will do a Dirac calibration soon and then assess the result with REW.

If I could find a good looking (my subs are highly visible in my room), small form factor, readily available sub that could outperform what I have I would certainly give it some thought. I am exactly the target audience for JL, lol.

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Depending on your definition of "good looking" and "small form factor", I have attached some images of subs from Funk Audio. He will do virtually any finish you want, including high gloss black if that is what you are looking for. But these are all 18" subs so all of the cabinets will be larger than what you already own.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Depending on your definition of "good looking" and "small form factor", I have attached some images of subs from Funk Audio. He will do virtually any finish you want, including high gloss black if that is what you are looking for. But these are all 18" subs so all of the cabinets will be larger than what you already own.


He makes absolutely beautiful subs. Challenge is the cost - because you could get a stack of Seatons for same price. But definitely beautiful and great performing subs.


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post #107 of 179 Old 10-21-2019, 11:10 AM
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He makes absolutely beautiful subs. Challenge is the cost - because you could get a stack of Seatons for same price. But definitely beautiful and great performing subs.
Funk now has his new 18's at $2500 so very competitive - but they are just rectangular boxes - and the OP wants attractive. But "bang for the buck" two Seaton Master 18's and two Slaves would be a HUGE upgrade in his room.

THESE newest Funk 18s come in various finishes but they are still just "boxes".
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post #108 of 179 Old 10-21-2019, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Amplifiers will be rack mount. 6-8 of 18" or 21"ers depending upon what Mark and my installer recommend after going over specifics and peculiarities of my theater and setup and practical placement options. I just want to get that deep bass that you feel. This is OVERKILL. Since Adam Pelz will be coming to calibrate once everything is all done, I want to have it all done so all Adam as to do is his magic and its all done! Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP will allow Adam to set different memories for movies as well as music so I can get the best of both worlds.
You may not need separate settings for Movies and Music with the stacked Seatons, I didn't. With 2 stacks of 4 F18's behind the screen the subs barely have to move for most music content, very fast, no need for a weighted curve. Even with extreme movie LFE tracks they don't come close to maxing out. You may need a separated setting for Auro 3D 2channel upmixing or need to adjust the Auro 3D parameter down from your preferred movie level. I haven't tried turning the side subs down with Auro music upmixing that might also do the trick. Most of the music I listen to in my theater is multi-channel so I haven't spent much time with 2D upmixing.
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post #109 of 179 Old 10-21-2019, 12:24 PM
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You may not need separate settings for Movies and Music with the stacked Seatons.
That will somewhat depend on the shape of his target curves (and I have all Seaton subs as do you) - and personal preference. Even when Adam did my initial calibration, he had one Preset for movies and another for music - and I still do. My music response is very close to flat while my movie response has more lift in the low end. BUT, that's the beauty of a processor like the Trinnov - many choices !!
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post #110 of 179 Old 10-21-2019, 01:58 PM
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Funk now has his new 18's at $2500 so very competitive - but they are just rectangular boxes - and the OP wants attractive. But "bang for the buck" two Seaton Master 18's and two Slaves would be a HUGE upgrade in his room.

THESE newest Funk 18s come in various finishes but they are still just "boxes".
You are right, these are decent for sure, and the new 18s are competitive. Very interesting that it says on his site that he handmakes the amps and the drivers. Really quite impressive. The only thing I worry about with "one-man-shows" is if something bad happens to the owner and the parts are proprietary then support is going to be challenging. But just looking at performance alone the power compression curves of the 18 from a few years ago are not that different from the JL F113...i.e. about 102db at 20hz from 1 sub...….perhaps their "higher end" models can exceed this but I don't know...

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post #111 of 179 Old 10-21-2019, 05:53 PM
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The only thing I worry about with "one-man-shows" is if something bad happens to the owner and the parts are proprietary then support is going to be challenging.

I get that.



With my Seaton F18's (or previous SubMersives), while the DSP settings in the amp are designed by Mark, I'm pretty sure I can re-create those with an external box. In fact, I have the output of them measured at 1/2" so pretty close to anechoic and saved in a file. And he doesn't build the drivers - he has them modified by commercial driver manufacturers - so if something happens you can send them off for repair. Same is probably true of JTR. I would not be too concerned about the drivers in the Funk product. There are companies that can repair minor damage. As for the DSP amp, if I owned one of his subs, I would do the same as I did with my F18s. Measure them at 1/2" and I could re-create that if necessary with an external amp/DSP solution.
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Right now I have 6 passive 12" Ino audio profundus ported basmodules and I'm waiting for 2 more.
My room is around 18,7x22,3x7,5 ft, so 3140 cf.

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You may not need separate settings for Movies and Music with the stacked Seatons, I didn't. With 2 stacks of 4 F18's behind the screen the subs barely have to move for most music content, very fast, no need for a weighted curve. Even with extreme movie LFE tracks they don't come close to maxing out. You may need a separated setting for Auro 3D 2channel upmixing or need to adjust the Auro 3D parameter down from your preferred movie level. I haven't tried turning the side subs down with Auro music upmixing that might also do the trick. Most of the music I listen to in my theater is multi-channel so I haven't spent much time with 2D upmixing.
He may not. But I think it will come down to his personal subjectivity on wether or not he needs different curves. Or possibly he may not at first but overtime once he gets settled in with the system and has a chance to hear a lot of different content, then he may feel this or that needs bumping up or down.
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post #114 of 179 Old 10-24-2019, 09:18 AM
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He may not. But I think it will come down to his personal subjectivity on wether or not he needs different curves. Or possibly he may not at first but overtime once he gets settled in with the system and has a chance to hear a lot of different content, then he may feel this or that needs bumping up or down.
You may be correct. I set aside a whole day for Walter to do room curves. We listened to alot of music and demanding movie clips. I liked his reference (revealing) curve the best on all of them. He gave me a slightly rolled off HF curve for harsh recordings (I really don't play any in my HT), and several levels of bass reduction/midnight curves (I only will sometimes use one of these on 2 channel music upmixed with Auromatic), but as you say its a matter of personal preference.
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post #115 of 179 Old 10-24-2019, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Amplifiers will be rack mount. 6-8 of 18" or 21"ers depending upon what Mark and my installer recommend after going over specifics and peculiarities of my theater and setup and practical placement options. I just want to get that deep bass that you feel. This is OVERKILL. Since Adam Pelz will be coming to calibrate once everything is all done, I want to have it all done so all Adam as to do is his magic and its all done! Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP will allow Adam to set different memories for movies as well as music so I can get the best of both worlds.
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You may not need separate settings for Movies and Music with the stacked Seatons, I didn't. With 2 stacks of 4 F18's behind the screen the subs barely have to move for most music content, very fast, no need for a weighted curve. Even with extreme movie LFE tracks they don't come close to maxing out. You may need a separated setting for Auro 3D 2channel upmixing or need to adjust the Auro 3D parameter down from your preferred movie level. I haven't tried turning the side subs down with Auro music upmixing that might also do the trick. Most of the music I listen to in my theater is multi-channel so I haven't spent much time with 2D upmixing.
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That will somewhat depend on the shape of his target curves (and I have all Seaton subs as do you) - and personal preference. Even when Adam did my initial calibration, he had one Preset for movies and another for music - and I still do. My music response is very close to flat while my movie response has more lift in the low end. BUT, that's the beauty of a processor like the Trinnov - many choices !!
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He may not. But I think it will come down to his personal subjectivity on wether or not he needs different curves. Or possibly he may not at first but overtime once he gets settled in with the system and has a chance to hear a lot of different content, then he may feel this or that needs bumping up or down.
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You may be correct. I set aside a whole day for Walter to do room curves. We listened to alot of music and demanding movie clips. I liked his reference (revealing) curve the best on all of them. He gave me a slightly rolled off HF curve for harsh recordings (I really don't play any in my HT), and several levels of bass reduction/midnight curves (I only will sometimes use one of these on 2 channel music upmixed with Auromatic), but as you say its a matter of personal preference.
I suspect that thanks to the flexibility and memories of the Trinnov SSP, I will end up at minimum with one memory for music, and several memories for movies - normal, more boom, more musical, and Disney (to make up for poor bass). We will see. But fiddlin' around with this music and movies is a good thing!
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post #116 of 179 Old 10-24-2019, 03:43 PM
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I'd look at the Bass EQ thread on the forum for how films have had truncated bass for presets also.

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post #117 of 179 Old 10-24-2019, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
I'd look at the Bass EQ thread on the forum for how films have had truncated bass for presets also.

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If you saved all of the BassEQ adjustments as Presets, you would use them up very quickly. They can be saved as PEQs and recalled as necessary (not sure of the limit, if any, of stored PEQs)
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post #118 of 179 Old 10-24-2019, 11:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Audioguy, I think some months back you mentioned that you had upgraded from one type of Seaton subwoofer to the F18, and that you liked your prior Seaton subwoofers better sonically. Or is my memory deficient? If my memory is good, please explain. Thanks.

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! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!
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post #119 of 179 Old 10-25-2019, 04:19 AM
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You are correct. I was comparing the SubMersive to the F18, but I'm not sure it was an accurate statement. In the F18, primarily in music, I hear a "thumpiness" in the bass (on some music), that I don't recall with my SubMersives. And a good friend, who has heard all of my theater versions, hears it as well. It was present even after Adam did the original calibration.

However, I have a calibration client who has installed 6 F18's (in an almost 10,000 cf space), and I don't recall hearing it in his room. I am in the process of making a list of music in which I hear the "thumpiness" and then re-visiting the guy with the 6 F18's and see if I hear it in his room. If I do, then it is clearly the sub. If I don't then I am confused, since that only leaves the room as the cause which begs a number of questions. Since the Universe's greatest audio calibrator initially did my room, using the Universe's greatest processors, how come it did not address the problem.? And if it is the room, why did I not experience it with my SubMersives?

I will know more after I make my visit, which hopefully will occur in the next 2 to 3 weeks.

All of that said, I'm not sure I would let that deter you from considering the F18. Why? I am not aware of any other F18 owner commenting on hearing what I hear. Though maybe they don't use their room for music -- or they have not attended enough live, UNAMPLIFIED music sessions to know the difference. The "thumpiness" I hear is "sort of" similar to what I hear in a venue where the drum kit is over mic'd.

By making a number of adjustments in pre-Optimizer PEQs and my current, highly modified target curve, I have reduced the problem some, but having been exposed to live music for so long, I know what I am hearing - and it is most certainly still there - and it most certainly annoys me --- a LOT!! Lastly, when I connect my headphones to my computer and have Roon direct the output to my computer, I hear nothing that sounds like what I hear within my room, as it relates to this specific issue. I am not imagining things.

Last edited by audioguy; 10-25-2019 at 04:26 AM.
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post #120 of 179 Old 10-25-2019, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Audioguy, I think some months back you mentioned that you had upgraded from one type of Seaton subwoofer to the F18, and that you liked your prior Seaton subwoofers better sonically. Or is my memory deficient? If my memory is good, please explain. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
You are correct. I was comparing the SubMersive to the F18, but I'm not sure it was an accurate statement. In the F18, primarily in music, I hear a "thumpiness" in the bass (on some music), that I don't recall with my SubMersives. And a good friend, who has heard all of my theater versions, hears it as well. It was present even after Adam did the original calibration.

However, I have a calibration client who has installed 6 F18's (in an almost 10,000 cf space), and I don't recall hearing it in his room. I am in the process of making a list of music in which I hear the "thumpiness" and then re-visiting the guy with the 6 F18's and see if I hear it in his room. If I do, then it is clearly the sub. If I don't then I am confused, since that only leaves the room as the cause which begs a number of questions. Since the Universe's greatest audio calibrator initially did my room, using the Universe's greatest processors, how come it did not address the problem.? And if it is the room, why did I not experience it with my SubMersives?

I will know more after I make my visit, which hopefully will occur in the next 2 to 3 weeks.

All of that said, I'm not sure I would let that deter you from considering the F18. Why? I am not aware of any other F18 owner commenting on hearing what I hear. Though maybe they don't use their room for music -- or they have not attended enough live, UNAMPLIFIED music sessions to know the difference. The "thumpiness" I hear is "sort of" similar to what I hear in a venue where the drum kit is over mic'd.

By making a number of adjustments in pre-Optimizer PEQs and my current, highly modified target curve, I have reduced the problem some, but having been exposed to live music for so long, I know what I am hearing - and it is most certainly still there - and it most certainly annoys me --- a LOT!! Lastly, when I connect my headphones to my computer and have Roon direct the output to my computer, I hear nothing that sounds like what I hear within my room, as it relates to this specific issue. I am not imagining things.
Audioguy - what are your room dimensions? Back when you didn't have the thumpiness, how many and which subwoofers did you have, and where were they placed? Now with your current thumpiness of music, you have how many F18s (8?) and is their room placement the same as before?

I wonder if this thumpiness is a particular low bass frequency being accentuated that is thumping something in your theater?

How would you describe the pros and cons of your current F18 subwoofers vs your prior subwoofers?

I attend lots of concerts with a fair amount of unamplified music as well - so I want to be sure I don't have thumpiness to my bass!

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!

Last edited by Steve Bruzonsky; 10-25-2019 at 10:51 AM.
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