Originally Posted by mthomas47
I hope that some of my JTR friends will forgive me if I try to answer some of your questions.
If you are going to have a professional calibrator help you with your system, then he can also help to determine the best location for the subwoofers. And, that may take some experimentation with different placement options. The best location is somewhat room dependent, vis-a-vis listening positions dependent, and can't always be determined in advance. If your build depends on your ability to select subwoofer placement in advance, then I would consult the calibrator who is going to have to dial-in your final frequency response, and get his advice on subwoofer placement.
The answer to your first question just involves some experimentation. The answer to your second question is more complicated than that. You haven't said exactly why you want to upgrade from your current subs, but I assume you are chasing more significant low-bass effects. Even a pair of Cap 2400's would have much more low-frequency SPL and TR (tactile response) than your current four subs have. Any good subwoofer can sound good with music, but some subwoofers are more noticeable than others, so when you speak of the four Cap 2400's "disappearing", I have some concern.
Too me, it's not so much that large, powerful ported subwoofers can't be as quick as sealed subs, it is more the fact that they produce so much more low-frequency SPL and TR than you are currently used to. That will add to the perception of bass weight, compared to the subs you currently have. The big ported JTR subs are often described as violent, and I think that is a valid description. Would you like that deep-bass SPL and TR violence for movies? I absolutely think that you would. Would the four large ported subwoofers blend or disappear in the same way that your current subs do for music? I'm not as sure.
You obviously have a lot of money invested in your current subs, and will be investing quite a bit in your new ones as well. If I were you, I wouldn't do that without some auditions. One way would be to try to find someone in your area with large ported subwoofers who would be willing to let you listen to some of your music with them. A better way would be to order some ported subwoofers, from a couple of different sources, to test them in your own room before jumping all-in with an order for four subs.
For instance, I might order one JTR Cap2400 and one Rythmik FV25HP, or one Rythmik FV18. Test both of the subs you are auditioning for both movies and music. If both give you the right combination of blending for music, and the deep-bass and TR that you are looking for with movies, then multiples of that sub will do the same thing, on an even larger scale. If one sub seems better to you for movies and the other seems better for music, then you will have a choice to make. And, it's a choice that only you can make.
For the amount of investment involved, and with your obvious financial resources, I would do this if I were you. Going from a sealed subwoofer to a really powerful ported sub can be an eye-opening experience. Going to four of them all at once will be even more so. Of course, you could also consider buying a single sealed JTR sub to test. All current JTR subs are maximized for strong low-frequency performance. And, the sealed JTR subs will be more potent in that respect than your current subs are. Four RS1's, or especially four RS2's, would give you very significant bass capabilities, even in a roughly 5100^3 room.
My best advice is to find a way to audition some ported subs so that you can answer your second question to your own satisfaction. If you do, I have no doubt that you will end-up with a terrific sound system. Meanwhile, reading Section VIII of the Guide, linked in my signature, may be of some benefit.
Originally Posted by audioguy
To make Cannga's statement a bit more generalized, I would change one thing he said: "If I were to start buying subwoofers today for combined movie/music system, it would come from one of the well respected ID companies - JTR, Funk Audio or Seaton"
Funk has some outstanding subs, with his newly announced 18's at $2500. See HERE
for more information. Or you could put 4 of Nathan's favorites in your room - his 21s. Steve, I recommend you call Nathan (Funk) and tell him what you are doing, and get his input And I would call Mark (Seaton) and Jeff at JTR. And lastly, I would also ask Adam. He's probably calibrated all of those subs and who knows what else. ANY of those subs in the hands of Adam will move you to the very top of possible LFE audio in your room - and a completely different audio experience than you have had previoulsy.
I tried to suggest to Steve prior to him creating his current sub configuration that any of the above names would provide him superior performance and far superior price/performance than what he chose. I can say I have heard the JLs and the Seaton F18s in the same room. Not even close. The JLs go due south at around 20Hz and the Seatons (and Funks) and JTRs) easily extend into single digits. In today's world, there is NO reason, IMO, to buy a "Brick and Mortar" sub, given the other options available.
The good news here is I can "overpower" and have it all for movies, and the Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP has 29 memories (and more via USB stick) so i can have different modes for different types of movies and music. Adam Pelz when he comes can work with me to set up these modes. For music, the subwoofer power can be turned down to avoid too much shaking and be equivalent to what I hear at good musical venues in terms of bass and mid-bass. Moving last May to the Trinnov SSP gives me great flexibility in this regard! Adam already advised placement at mid-points, quarter points of side walls, or all 4 corners, whatever works for me - I'm just wondering if in the end after PEQ and room optimization one placement scheme will sound better than the others at the MLP, if anyone can say from experience in this regard.
I once had three ported Aerial SW12 subwoofers. Very musical. However, two JL Audio f212s non-ported are better, not necessarily more musical but simply more output and ease. So I have had ported subwoofers which I did consider to be quite musical.
If I sell my current subs and buy four of the JTRs I won't come out way behind $$$ and I sort of think I'll be guarenteed the "liftoff" factor when I want it yet still get all the musicality I need due to Adam Pelz's calibration and setup expertise and his ability to set different memories for the bass and mid-bass with the Trinnov SSP.
As you may know, Adam does great work but it does cost $$. I am not gonna experiment and move subs around as I will end up back in the hospital and have my other hip replaced! And Adam is super busy, just got back from Tel Aviv, its best if I can get it all ready for Adam to do his magic for if I add/change thereafter I may have to wait until he can schedule to be back in this area and could cost additional $$. So I am simply trying to use some objective overkill and evaluate what others have to say before I make any changes/choice, as my theater upgrade is taking time and I want to get it "right" without hassling and tweaking thereafter (for once in my life) so that Adam can do his magic and have it done once and for all!
Again, I appreciate, respect Mike's statement that "Would you like that deep-bass SPL and TR violence for movies? I absolutely think that you would. Would the four large ported subwoofers blend or disappear in the same way that your current subs do for music? I'm not as sure." But when Adam comes out we will also do listening and get the right sub settings for both different types of movies and music - there is no reason why we can't make the subs "disappear" as necessary to be musical. And just think of how pipe organ will sound!
Also, I do have the space at the quarter points of the side walls for four JTR Captivator 4000ULF-ST (ported) as they are 28″ x 58″ x 20.5″ (HxWxD). What's important here is the height will not interfere with my on wall Aerial Acoustics 7LCRs (6) as they will be mounted with center tweeters a foot higher than the tweeters of the floorstanding Aerial Acoustics 7ts up front (3), plenty of room for the width, and the depth of 20.5" is fine as the aisles will be at least 36" on each side! On the other hand, contemplating four JTR Captivator S2 (sealed),they are 40″x21″x18″
(HxWxD), and although this height of 40" might be workable I think the 28" height of the ported model is preferable.
Mid-points of four walls won't work for me for sub placement, as front center Aerial Acoustics 7t would be right in front of a subwoofer, and cabinetry at the back. Corners could work but back left corner is where doorway into theater is and sub would have to be placed some out of corner. So quarter points of side walls are best, so long as subwoofers are not SO DEEP as to intrude too much into the 36" aisles on each side of two rows of seating and the back row riser. I will do some more checking on Funk and Seaton in addition to JTR re whats available in terms of performance, cost and dimensions in terms of fitting with my renovated/upgraded theater.
Chuck/Audioguy - "I tried to suggest to Steve prior to him creating his current sub configuration that any of the above names would provide him superior performance and far superior price/performance than what he chose. I can say I have heard the JLs and the Seaton F18s in the same room. Not even close. The JLs go due south at around 20Hz and the Seatons (and Funks) and JTRs) easily extend into single digits. In today's world, there is NO reason, IMO, to buy a "Brick and Mortar" sub, given the other options available." YEA! YEA! I just didn't wanna mess with the hassles of selling and shipping my 2 JL Audio f212s, and was back then not realizing just how extensive and OCD I was gonna get in my theater mods! But more and more I am thinking "Listen to Chuck". HA! Besides, my installers guys can pack the subs for me (lift - no sh_t) and I can arrange a freight company to pickup and strap to pallet (as I found out when I sold and shipped a pair of Aerial 7ts). Even though my 4 current subwoofers will be plenty nice, I do want to ensure I get that "liftoff" and thanks to flexibility with the Trinnov SSP Adam can put different settings in memory for different types of music and movies so I should end up being completely happy rather than mostly happy!