Home Theater Subwoofers - How Many & Which and How's Your Liftoff? - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 232 Old 10-25-2019, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Audioguy - what are your room dimensions? Back when you didn't have the thumpiness, how many and which subwoofers did you have, and where were they placed? Now with your current thumpiness of music, you have how many F18s (8?) and is their room placement the same as before?

As previoulsy noted, other subs were Seaton SubMersives. Room dimensions are 19'3" wide, 22' long, 8' high. 2 SubMersives were located in left rear corner, 1 under each end of the screen. Current configuration is 3 Seaton F18's in left rear corner and 2 F18's in each of the two front corners.


Quote:
I wonder if this thumpiness is a particular low bass frequency being accentuated that is thumping something in your theater?
If that were the case, then the SubMersives also would have had the thumpiness, and they most certainly did not.

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How would you describe the pros and cons of your current F18 subwoofers vs your prior subwoofers?
The easily heard "pros" of the SubMersives was that the mid-upper bass I found much more articulate and cleaner. And the "thumpiness" did not exist. There were no "cons". But we are not comparing Apples to Apples. I had 4 Seaton SubMersives and have 8 F18s (though only using 7 at the moment as I test the rear left corner position.) I would be more than perfectly satisfied with the F18's if I can find the cause of and eliminate this thumpiness. Again, as I previously noted, I can't say for sure that it is the sub but once I visit the room in Atlanta, I will be able to determine if it is my room or the subs.

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I attend lots of concerts with a fair amount of unamplified music as well - so I want to be sure I don't have thumpiness to my bass!
I am sure you will make the right decision. Again, I think you are probably safe with the F18 since I have not heard this complaint from anyone else. Part of my drive to determine if it is the sub or the room is if it is the sub, I will sell them and most likely purchase the new Funk 18' sub. If it is not the sub, then I will continue to experiment and see if I can eliminate it via Trinnov settings, PEQs and modified target curves.
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post #122 of 232 Old 10-26-2019, 12:06 PM
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As my cinema is not large, due to their small size I have two stacks of three REL 1508s for LFE, and KEF Reference subs working with each of the front three speakers. I find this a fine compromise for music and movies.

I have no space restrictions for my stereo, and have two line arrays of 3 @ REL 25s; these help to make the listening experience beyond special. Every album played is an event.
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post #123 of 232 Old 10-28-2019, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
These are different form factor variations on our F18 with the same acoustic performance which will be available through dealers. We installed 2 of the same DS18-20 modules at the rear of Art's room 2 years ago. These will go on the website in the future with a handful of other application specific designs including some shallow 8", 6", and 4" deep options with the same deep extension, and we'll even have a slightly bigger model with a sealed 21" woofer. These are part of our Design Series, where the DS18-12 (12" deep box), and DS18-20 (20" square face) are shown below. The DS18-20 can have the option of internal amplification, but the vast majority to be powered from our rack mounted amplifiers, especially when concealed behind a screen or stretched fabric.



Mark, as you and I discussed, my installer is finalizing speaker placement (9.X.13 speaker layout), and what I like about your subwoofers in particular is custom sizing. My theater as remodeled is 18.25' W x 23.25' L x 11'11" H. My aisles will be about 3' on each side. As you and I discussed, plenty of room at the front screen wall below the screen for subwoofers at the front of my theater (screen starts a bit above the front left, right and center Aerial Acoustics 7t speakers which are about 47" tall). In terms of subs at the rear of the theatre, if they go in the rear corners there's only 14" on the left to the entry door, so if rear corners width would need to fit within this area - you mention the DS18-12 (12" deep box) so that may work. Or if we place the rear subs along the side walls out a bit from the rear corners then if the subs are no more than say 18" deep - less would be better - then this leaves at least about 1.5' of walkway. And as we discussed I will get your passive subwoofers with the amplifiers located at the rear of my theater hidden behind the new cabinetry going in with the other components and amplifiers.

Below I have listed from your website the dimensions of your 18" and 21" passive subwoofers currently on your website:

X21P1 – 21” woofer ported - 6” Voice Coil – Passive
Dimensions 32.75″ H x 24″ W x 32.75″ D (including feet and magnetically attached grill)

F18-Slave – 18” woofer sealed – 3” Voice Coil – Passive
Dimensions 24.25″ H x 23.5″ W x 18″ D (including feet and magnetically attached grill)

What are the dimension choices for the form factor variations on your F18 subwoofer?

Do you have any dimension choices for form factor variations on your X21P1 ported subwoofer, and if so, what are they?

What are the dimension choices for form factor variations on your new 21" sealed subwoofer?

Thanks. My installer is coming back tomorrow to start speaker wiring, etc and I am hoping to discuss all this with him and determine which and how many subwoofers I want to order.
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Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #124 of 232 Old 10-28-2019, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Mark, as you and I discussed, my installer is finalizing speaker placement (9.X.13 speaker layout), and what I like about your subwoofers in particular is custom sizing. My theater as remodeled is 18.25' W x 23.25' L x 11'11" H. My aisles will be about 3' on each side. As you and I discussed, plenty of room at the front screen wall below the screen for subwoofers at the front of my theater (screen starts a bit above the front left, right and center Aerial Acoustics 7t speakers which are about 47" tall). In terms of subs at the rear of the theatre, if they go in the rear corners there's only 14" on the left to the entry door, so if rear corners width would need to fit within this area - you mention the DS18-12 (12" deep box) so that may work. Or if we place the rear subs along the side walls out a bit from the rear corners then if the subs are no more than say 18" deep - less would be better - then this leaves at least about 1.5' of walkway. And as we discussed I will get your passive subwoofers with the amplifiers located at the rear of my theater hidden behind the new cabinetry going in with the other components and amplifiers.

Below I have listed from your website the dimensions of your 18" and 21" passive subwoofers currently on your website:

X21P1 – 21” woofer ported - 6” Voice Coil – Passive
Dimensions 32.75″ H x 24″ W x 32.75″ D (including feet and magnetically attached grill)

F18-Slave – 18” woofer sealed – 3” Voice Coil – Passive
Dimensions 24.25″ H x 23.5″ W x 18″ D (including feet and magnetically attached grill)

What are the dimension choices for the form factor variations on your F18 subwoofer?

Do you have any dimension choices for form factor variations on your X21P1 ported subwoofer, and if so, what are they?

What are the dimension choices for form factor variations on your new 21" sealed subwoofer?

Thanks. My installer is coming back tomorrow to start speaker wiring, etc and I am hoping to discuss all this with him and determine which and how many subwoofers I want to order.
I think he sells those only through dealers and designers. I tried calling Mark today but his voicemail was full and could not leave a message. He also makes 8in deep twin 12’s. I am trying to understand the pros and cons of each size...
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post #125 of 232 Old 10-29-2019, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Mark, as you and I discussed, my installer is finalizing speaker placement (9.X.13 speaker layout), and what I like about your subwoofers in particular is custom sizing. My theater as remodeled is 18.25' W x 23.25' L x 11'11" H. My aisles will be about 3' on each side. As you and I discussed, plenty of room at the front screen wall below the screen for subwoofers at the front of my theater (screen starts a bit above the front left, right and center Aerial Acoustics 7t speakers which are about 47" tall). In terms of subs at the rear of the theatre, if they go in the rear corners there's only 14" on the left to the entry door, so if rear corners width would need to fit within this area - you mention the DS18-12 (12" deep box) so that may work. Or if we place the rear subs along the side walls out a bit from the rear corners then if the subs are no more than say 18" deep - less would be better - then this leaves at least about 1.5' of walkway. And as we discussed I will get your passive subwoofers with the amplifiers located at the rear of my theater hidden behind the new cabinetry going in with the other components and amplifiers.

Below I have listed from your website the dimensions of your 18" and 21" passive subwoofers currently on your website:

X21P1 – 21” woofer ported - 6” Voice Coil – Passive
Dimensions 32.75″ H x 24″ W x 32.75″ D (including feet and magnetically attached grill)

F18-Slave – 18” woofer sealed – 3” Voice Coil – Passive
Dimensions 24.25″ H x 23.5″ W x 18″ D (including feet and magnetically attached grill)

What are the dimension choices for the form factor variations on your F18 subwoofer?

Do you have any dimension choices for form factor variations on your X21P1 ported subwoofer, and if so, what are they?

What are the dimension choices for form factor variations on your new 21" sealed subwoofer?

Thanks. My installer is coming back tomorrow to start speaker wiring, etc and I am hoping to discuss all this with him and determine which and how many subwoofers I want to order.
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I think he sells those only through dealers and designers. I tried calling Mark today but his voicemail was full and could not leave a message. He also makes 8in deep twin 12’s. I am trying to understand the pros and cons of each size...
Correct. Mark has models which he is selling only through dealers/designers/installers. My installer will be placing the order but I need to know the available choices particularly dimensions of the new designer models not listed on the website. Plus Mark has stated that he does intend to update his website to include the new designer models sold through dealers/designers/installers. Also, my installer is over now and we are finalizing all speaker locations - so then we can get with Mark to discuss subwoofer models, dimensions and placement and place our order.

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.

Last edited by Steve Bruzonsky; 10-29-2019 at 12:44 PM.
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post #126 of 232 Old 10-29-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
I have 10 F-18’s in my HT. 8 (2 stacks of 4) behind the screen and one on each side wall across from the MLP (with the ability to add an additional slave on each sidewall). I don’t feel its lacking.
Not to get off topic, but it isn't too often I see my last name pop up on the forums. And on top of that only a few hours South of me. With an impressive theater to boot. If you are open to showing off your theater some time, I would consider it a privilege to experience it.

Best Regards,
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post #127 of 232 Old 10-29-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PabloReiter View Post
I think he sells those only through dealers and designers. I tried calling Mark today but his voicemail was full and could not leave a message. He also makes 8in deep twin 12’s. I am trying to understand the pros and cons of each size...
Hi Pablo,

Thanks for the heads up. The voice mail is now cleared after the blocked robo-calls unknowingly filled things up. This week e-mail would probably be easier to catch up with, or please leave a message.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
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post #128 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Amplifiers will be rack mount. 6-8 of 18" or 21"ers depending upon what Mark and my installer recommend after going over specifics and peculiarities of my theater and setup and practical placement options. I just want to get that deep bass that you feel. This is OVERKILL. Since Adam Pelz will be coming to calibrate once everything is all done, I want to have it all done so all Adam as to do is his magic and its all done! Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP will allow Adam to set different memories for movies as well as music so I can get the best of both worlds.


How many cubic feet is your theater space ?


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post #129 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 02:48 AM
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Is the new 21 using the new Eminence NSW?
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post #130 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 05:48 AM
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Is the new 21 using the new Eminence NSW?

Given he used an Eminence driver (I think) in the SubMersive, it would not surprise me.

Steve: If you put 8 21's in your room, I will be paying you a visit. While you are about 400 miles from Los Angeles, you may end up being tbe the proverbial final straw that sets off the ultimate San Andreas earthquake.

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post #131 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 08:48 AM
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Not to get off topic, but it isn't too often I see my last name pop up on the forums. And on top of that only a few hours South of me. With an impressive theater to boot. If you are open to showing off your theater some time, I would consider it a privilege to experience it.

Best Regards,
Chris LaSalle
I believe @ARROW-AV and @Alan Gouger (and Peter, he whose name shall not be mentioned) are setting up a visit/demo
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post #132 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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How many cubic feet is your theater space ?


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My theater dimensions WERE 18' 3" W x 25' L x 11'11" H. With remodeling and new cabinetry at rear to hide component racks & disc storage, the new L is 23'4". Therefore 5,056 cubic feet!

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #133 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Given he used an Eminence driver (I think) in the SubMersive, it would not surprise me.

Steve: If you put 8 21's in your room, I will be paying you a visit. While you are about 400 miles from Los Angeles, you may end up being tbe the proverbial final straw that sets off the ultimate San Andreas earthquake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGon_kZAVtU
We can dream, can't we!

I have always been somewhat of an audiophile/tweaker home theater luver - with component racks on the left side, disc racks on the right side, and floorstanding speakers all around plus floorstanding subwoofers. My installer has persuaded me to get "clean" mostly by renovating the theater (built 1996-early 1997 as an addition onto my home) by taking out the existing cabinetry/wetbar at the back and building out the framing/wall/cabinetry (in progress) to "hide" component racks, disc storage, and the Sony VW5000 projector! Over the past few months that my theater has been down I have been gradually realizing and moving in a "cleaner" direction - e.g., do not use subwoofers at side walls which are so wide as to clog up and only leave a foot of walkway at the aisle!

Now I will still have 3 Aerial Acoustics 7t floorstanders at the very front of the theater. And I still have plenty of room up front for some subwoofers. But I'm waiting to get with Mark Seaton and find out if he has any designer 21"ers for the back side of my theater which won't jam me up on the aisle. So we will see if Jerry Lee Lewis rises from his grave and "There's a Whole Lotta Shakin' Goin' On!" Odds are I will end up with a combination of 18"ers and 21"ers!
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Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #134 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 09:49 AM
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So what is the dominant reason for not "hiding" your speakers, specifically your LCRs?
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post #135 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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So what is the dominant reason for not "hiding" your speakers, specifically your LCRs?
Plenty of room in my theater for floorstanding speakers up front. I continue to believe the front soundstage is the most critical. Plus as I have 11'11" height, my screen is up higher above the 46"-47" high floorstanding Aerial Acoustics 7ts. Looks like front row will be 9.5' from screen, back row 14' from screen, so plenty of room up front for floorstanding speakers and some subwoofers.

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #137 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 01:01 PM
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^^ if that demo is happening between Nov 11 and 15 I'd love to come by (with a nice bottle of red!) to experience the Alcons for the first time. Family trip to Siesta Key - just love the area, may become my retirement destination in 15-20yrs...I'd have to build a competing ht of course
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^^ if that demo is happening between Nov 11 and 15 I'd love to come by (with a nice bottle of red!) to experience the Alcons for the first time. Family trip to Siesta Key - just love the area, may become my retirement destination in 15-20yrs...I'd have to build a competing ht of course
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post #139 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 05:02 PM
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I think he sells those only through dealers and designers. I tried calling Mark today but his voicemail was full and could not leave a message. He also makes 8in deep twin 12’s. I am trying to understand the pros and cons of each size...
Hi Pablo,

I wanted to quickly add that the primary compromise with the shallow depth subwoofer options I'm introducing is output vs cost. Unlike many alternates, they are capable of the similar in-room low frequency extension, but smaller modules have lower maximum output limitations, so more are needed to equal the output of the larger modules. The benefit is that we will have an option to create the same deep bass extension and output as multiple 18s while keeping to only 4, 6, or 8 inches of depth.

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post #140 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Mark, as you and I discussed, my installer is finalizing speaker placement (9.X.13 speaker layout), and what I like about your subwoofers in particular is custom sizing. My theater as remodeled is 18.25' W x 23.25' L x 11'11" H. My aisles will be about 3' on each side. As you and I discussed, plenty of room at the front screen wall below the screen for subwoofers at the front of my theater (screen starts a bit above the front left, right and center Aerial Acoustics 7t speakers which are about 47" tall). In terms of subs at the rear of the theatre, if they go in the rear corners there's only 14" on the left to the entry door, so if rear corners width would need to fit within this area - you mention the DS18-12 (12" deep box) so that may work. Or if we place the rear subs along the side walls out a bit from the rear corners then if the subs are no more than say 18" deep - less would be better - then this leaves at least about 1.5' of walkway. And as we discussed I will get your passive subwoofers with the amplifiers located at the rear of my theater hidden behind the new cabinetry going in with the other components and amplifiers.

Below I have listed from your website the dimensions of your 18" and 21" passive subwoofers currently on your website:

X21P1 – 21” woofer ported - 6” Voice Coil – Passive
Dimensions 32.75″ H x 24″ W x 32.75″ D (including feet and magnetically attached grill)

F18-Slave – 18” woofer sealed – 3” Voice Coil – Passive
Dimensions 24.25″ H x 23.5″ W x 18″ D (including feet and magnetically attached grill)

What are the dimension choices for the form factor variations on your F18 subwoofer?

Do you have any dimension choices for form factor variations on your X21P1 ported subwoofer, and if so, what are they?

What are the dimension choices for form factor variations on your new 21" sealed subwoofer?

Thanks. My installer is coming back tomorrow to start speaker wiring, etc and I am hoping to discuss all this with him and determine which and how many subwoofers I want to order.
Hi Steve,

Please check your e-mail where I have some questions so we can nail down what will work out the best and decide if the new 21" modules or the 18" modules make the most sense.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
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post #141 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 07:13 PM
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"When The Levee Breaks" can be a regular on your playlist .
I'm afraid I don't get the reference?

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post #142 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 08:17 PM
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Home Theater Subwoofers - How Many & Which and How's Your Liftoff?

I am in the midst of building a dedicated HT that is 3200 cu feet, acoustically treated. M&K speakers for atmos 9.x.4 (IW300 fronts, MP150 sides, Iw950 ceiling). I currently have 2 x JL Audio f113v2 Fathom Subs I want to use. My integrator suggests putting one sub front center of room, and the second sub rear center.

1. Is this the best sub configuration for the room, versus both at front ( 1/4 distance from side of room) ? I can’t really do a sub crawl as front or back are only options.

2. I am considering adding 2 more subs, but not sure I should buy more JL Fathoms. They are nice and very musical , but I think there are other options out there with better price and more low end punch below 20 hz. Which sub would integrate best with my Fathoms:
a. Seaton f18 or HP
b. m&K X12
c. SVS SB16

My integrator of course is saying the M&K will blow everything else out of the water, and will also blend best since the rest of speakers are M&K. I haven’t read too many reviews of the X12. And I have this idea (perhaps unfounded) that subs are better made by dedicated sub companies ! That said, M&K did invent the subwoofer.
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post #143 of 232 Old 10-30-2019, 08:21 PM
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I'm afraid I don't get the reference?
It's a barrier island, maybe they'll be building levees by then or it'll be under water. I'll keep my feelings regarding the probability off this forum; regardless, I hope it doesn't happen.
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post #144 of 232 Old 10-31-2019, 07:18 AM
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My integrator of course is saying the M&K will blow everything else out of the water, and will also blend best since the rest of speakers are M&K. I haven’t read too many reviews of the X12. And I have this idea (perhaps unfounded) that subs are better made by dedicated sub companies ! That said, M&K did invent the subwoofer.
Both of those statements are total and complete nonsense. The specs for that sub say the low end is 20Hz. Why would anyone buy a sub for $3500 with those kinds of specs with so many better choices? Buy a Seaton F18 Master AND Slave for about the same amount of money with WAY more output (dual 18's) and extension into the single digits. Or one of the JTR audio options. Or the new Funk 18 or ..... .

As for integrating the subs with the mains: if your integrator does not know how to do that with non M&K subs, get a new integrator. In fact, that your dealer even makes those kinds of statements suggest you might consider looking elsewhere. As for sub placement, both in front in not usually the best place but much of that choice will depend on your room. If it is rectangular and sealed, front and rear center or front left and rear right or .... some other options usually works quite well.

And as Steve has done and a client of mine has done, dump the JLs. They, too, only have output just below 20Hz - and are also over priced. Are they nice subs? Yes, but there are many options that provide much better price/performance.
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Last edited by audioguy; 10-31-2019 at 07:21 AM.
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post #145 of 232 Old 10-31-2019, 08:04 AM
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My integrator of course is saying the M&K will blow everything else out of the water, and will also blend best since the rest of speakers are M&K. I haven’t read too many reviews of the X12. And I have this idea (perhaps unfounded) that subs are better made by dedicated sub companies ! That said, M&K did invent the subwoofer.

I would beg to differ since systems like the Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater systems had dedicated low frequency woofers in their 3 way theater systems as far back as the 50's and 60's. and the first patent for a "subwoofer" which was called as much was in 1964.
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post #146 of 232 Old 10-31-2019, 08:17 AM
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It's a barrier island, maybe they'll be building levees by then or it'll be under water. I'll keep my feelings regarding the probability off this forum; regardless, I hope it doesn't happen.
ahhh, gotcha. Hope not, lol.

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post #147 of 232 Old 10-31-2019, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Steve,

Please check your e-mail where I have some questions so we can nail down what will work out the best and decide if the new 21" modules or the 18" modules make the most sense.
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Hi Pablo,

I wanted to quickly add that the primary compromise with the shallow depth subwoofer options I'm introducing is output vs cost. Unlike many alternates, they are capable of the similar in-room low frequency extension, but smaller modules have lower maximum output limitations, so more are needed to equal the output of the larger modules. The benefit is that we will have an option to create the same deep bass extension and output as multiple 18s while keeping to only 4, 6, or 8 inches of depth.

Mark, thanks so much. I responded to your email. My installer Gerry Behm is coming over hopefully tomorrow to finalize our speaker placement, and then we'll contact you to discuss your subwoofer and placement options and place the order! Your shallow depth subwoofer options certainly may help. Although you mentioned the idea of subwoofers below the screen in front, and perhaps built into the new cabinetry going in at the back of my theater - and this is something we'll discuss with you as this may well work as the area has been only framed and not closed yet and the cabinetry is yet to be built (see below photo)!
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Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #148 of 232 Old 10-31-2019, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by blake View Post
I am in the midst of building a dedicated HT that is 3200 cu feet, acoustically treated. M&K speakers for atmos 9.x.4 (IW300 fronts, MP150 sides, Iw950 ceiling). I currently have 2 x JL Audio f113v2 Fathom Subs I want to use. My integrator suggests putting one sub front center of room, and the second sub rear center.

1. Is this the best sub configuration for the room, versus both at front ( 1/4 distance from side of room) ? I can’t really do a sub crawl as front or back are only options.

2. I am considering adding 2 more subs, but not sure I should buy more JL Fathoms. They are nice and very musical , but I think there are other options out there with better price and more low end punch below 20 hz. Which sub would integrate best with my Fathoms:
a. Seaton f18 or HP
b. m&K X12
c. SVS SB16

My integrator of course is saying the M&K will blow everything else out of the water, and will also blend best since the rest of speakers are M&K. I haven’t read too many reviews of the X12. And I have this idea (perhaps unfounded) that subs are better made by dedicated sub companies ! That said, M&K did invent the subwoofer.
The M&K X12 is nothing special: https://mksound.com/products/x-series/x12/

Heck, with my theater remodel and changing out to hide subwoofer amplifiers and go deeper, even the subwoofers that I'm selling - JL Audio f212s that go down to 20Hz and Paradigm Persona that go down to 12-15 Hz will have way better and deeper output than the M&K. By the way, M&K I believe went under some years ago and then the name was bought and the company resurfaced - in any event, M&K did not invent the subwoofer. HA! HA!

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #149 of 232 Old 10-31-2019, 10:31 AM
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Home Theater Subwoofers - How Many & Which and How's Your Liftoff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
The M&K X12 is nothing special: https://mksound.com/products/x-series/x12/



Heck, with my theater remodel and changing out to hide subwoofer amplifiers and go deeper, even the subwoofers that I'm selling - JL Audio f212s that go down to 20Hz and Paradigm Persona that go down to 12-15 Hz will have way better and deeper output than the M&K. By the way, M&K I believe went under some years ago and then the name was bought and the company resurfaced - in any event, M&K did not invent the subwoofer. HA! HA!


Paradigm persona sub is 19-220 hz +\- 2 dB
M&K x12 is 20-200 +\- 2 dB.

This seems nearly identical, but M&K is less than half the price of Paradigm. I wish they would specify absolute dB though.

You are right, M&K was repurchased by a European group, but they have maintained the high quality these speakers are known for an in fact improved the design (M&K 150 and 300s are used by most Hollywood studios for sound mixing including Skywalker ranch). According to their website , Ken Kreisel invented the first self powered subwoofer in 1977 ! But I agree, certainly doesn’t mean this sub is the best buy right now, 40 years later !

https://www.kreiselsound.com/timeline.php

Last edited by blake; 10-31-2019 at 03:44 PM.
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post #150 of 232 Old 10-31-2019, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Paradigm persona sub is 19-220 hz +\- 2 dB
M&K x12 is 20-200 +\- 2 dB.

This seems nearly identical, but M&K is less than half the price of Paradigm. I wish they would specify absolute dB though.

You are right, M&K was repurchased by a European group, but they have maintained the high quality these speakers are known for an in fact improved the design (M&K 150 and 300s are used by most Hollywood studios for sound mixing including Skywalker ranch). According to their website , Morris Kessler invented the first self powered subwoofer in 1977 ! But I agree, certainly doesn’t mean this sub is the best buy right now, 40 years later !

https://www.kreiselsound.com/timeline.php
Actually if you read a bit deeper into the Paradigm website:

https://www.paradigm.com/en/sealed/persona-sub

Frequency Response: +/- 2dB from 19Hz - 220Hz (by pass option) ±3 dB 15Hz – 235Hz

Low Frequency Extension: 12 Hz

I know Morris Kessler well. He did not invent the first powered subwoofer in 1977. Morris is Amplifier Technologies, ATI, also owner of Theta Digital, Datasat, and other audio companies. I have owned Theta Digital products since 1994! Morris bought the company about 2007-2008.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/ATI%20sales%20story.pdf

M&K Sound was started by Jonas Miller and Ken Kreisel. Indeed, they did pioneer the powered subwoofer, but what relevance does this new M&K have to this anyway. If that's the reasoning your integrator has for buying the M&K sub (other than he sells it) then the integrator perhaps has already had a lobotomy!

https://hometheaterreview.com/mk-sound/

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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