Home Theater Subwoofers - How Many & Which and How's Your Liftoff? - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 200 Old 10-31-2019, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
I have about 5900cu ft in the room but I have one thing which I've noticed to be uncommon,my theater is on an upper floor. The result is that the room structure shakes along with the air movement. It was only planned that way because I didn't want the children's bathrooms above the theater. I saw the older ones run over sinks, tubs and toilets too many times before the build in the old part of the house and we have no basement.

Art
I have the same thing, HT on second floor. My LCR's have 18"s in them covering down to 40hz. Have two 18's in the baffle wall, two 18's at the back of the room and two 12's at the back of the room. Definitely do not need bass shakers. Do not even run my subs hot. My room is very small, but open to another room, so pressurizing about 4,000CF. If I put bass heavy music on and run the subs about 4db hot, the seats feel like massage chairs. People always ask me if I have bass shakers. I say yes, my bass shakers are 18" subs right behind the seats.

Acoustic Elegance TD18H+ drivers in LCR's (baffle wall)
8CF sealed Split coil REXXX (right behind seats)
4CF sealed 18" Malstrom X (right behind seats)
two 4CF sealed 18" Stereo Integrity HT-18D2 (baffle wall)
Two 2CF sealed 12" TC Sounds (one off drivers that were never produced) (right behind seats)

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post #152 of 200 Old 10-31-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Actually if you read a bit deeper into the Paradigm website:



https://www.paradigm.com/en/sealed/persona-sub



Frequency Response: +/- 2dB from 19Hz - 220Hz (by pass option) ±3 dB 15Hz – 235Hz



Low Frequency Extension: 12 Hz



I know Morris Kessler well. He did not invent the first powered subwoofer in 1977. Morris is Amplifier Technologies, ATI, also owner of Theta Digital, Datasat, and other audio companies. I have owned Theta Digital products since 1994! Morris bought the company about 2007-2008.



http://www.linkwitzlab.com/ATI%20sales%20story.pdf



M&K Sound was started by Jonas Miller and Ken Kreisel. Indeed, they did pioneer the powered subwoofer, but what relevance does this new M&K have to this anyway. If that's the reasoning your integrator has for buying the M&K sub (other than he sells it) then the integrator perhaps has already had a lobotomy!



https://hometheaterreview.com/mk-sound/


LOL. Yes my bad, I meant Ken Kreisel (sorry , ATI has been on my mind lately , planning on using their amps and ATP-16 pre pro if it’s ever released).

Thanks for the details on the MK x12 sub. Agree there’s better out there. Seaton : F18 x2 or HP x 2 ? How do you think these would compare to my JL Audio f113v2?
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post #153 of 200 Old 10-31-2019, 12:23 PM
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Thanks for the details on the MK x12 sub. Agree there’s better out there. Seaton : F18 x2 or HP x 2 ? How do you think these would compare to my JL Audio f113v2?
At least for the ability to reach single digits, the JL Audio will lose. In fact, it will also lose in raw output. I recently had a client get rid of two of those subs and replaced Seaton F18s.

The issue with subs like the JL and others, is that they are sold through dealers - so there is virtually no way to compete in the price/performance category. That said, there are bunches of potential sub customers who might be afraid to deal with an ID sub company run by very few people. That's their audience.

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post #154 of 200 Old 10-31-2019, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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LOL. Yes my bad, I meant Ken Kreisel (sorry , ATI has been on my mind lately , planning on using their amps and ATP-16 pre pro if it’s ever released).

Thanks for the details on the MK x12 sub. Agree there’s better out there. Seaton : F18 x2 or HP x 2 ? How do you think these would compare to my JL Audio f113v2?
Look, I've used two JL Audio Fathom f212 subs since 2014 (now for sale with my remodel) and they've been great. Very, very musical and plenty of oomph! However, they cutoff at 20 Hz.
But lets face it for most folks and theaters they are way more than adequate!!!

Tell you one thing - you already have 2 JL Audio Fathom f113 v2 subwoofers. Either one will blow the water out of the M&K subwoofer your integrator recommended. But if you want to get lower than 20 Hz, then other subs can do it and for a better price (at least at msrp). But with 3200 cubic feet, will even 2 of the Seaton F18s or something comparable pressurize your room if you want lift-off? Your theater is about the same cubic feet as Audioguy's theater. Audioguy has a boatload of F18s! Although 2 F18s will give you below 20 Hz, will you really feel it with only 2 of them in a 3200 cubic foot theater? Audioguy, as well as Mark Seaton, have already commented in this thread on that.

Where are you located? If you are not too far along with your home theater changes, you may want to consult with a different integrator. Oh - I looked at your profile - Edmonton, Canada. Interesting. I have a guy who just contacted me off US Audiomart re my sale ad for a Paradigm Persona Subwoofer from Edmonton. Talk about coincidences!

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
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post #155 of 200 Old 11-01-2019, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
At least for the ability to reach single digits, the JL Audio will lose. In fact, it will also lose in raw output. I recently had a client get rid of two of those subs and replaced Seaton F18s.

The issue with subs like the JL and others, is that they are sold through dealers - so there is virtually no way to compete in the price/performance category. That said, there are bunches of potential sub customers who might be afraid to deal with an ID sub company run by very few people. That's their audience.
Not to derail the thread further, but JL builds lifestyle-type products that have a modicum of WAF. They have a good amount of output for their smallish size, and that (on top of more overhead) is what you're paying for. If JL wanted to sell single-woofer boxes with over 50% more footprint (6000ish in^3 for the JL F113v2 vs. 9900ish for the Seaton F18) I'd bet they could.

That said, I'm a happy owner of many Seaton products and wouldn't pay the premium for JL, either. But, if I was looking for a subwoofer for my family room (now that my audio gear is relegated to the basement, lol), I think my wife would have my looking closer to the JL footprint than Seaton's and, to get even close to the performance in the smaller footprint, I'd have to pay (or DIY, and then it'd look like crap, lol).
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post #156 of 200 Old 11-01-2019, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Not to derail the thread further, but JL builds lifestyle-type products that have a modicum of WAF. They have a good amount of output for their smallish size, and that (on top of more overhead) is what you're paying for. If JL wanted to sell single-woofer boxes with over 50% more footprint (6000ish in^3 for the JL F113v2 vs. 9900ish for the Seaton F18) I'd bet they could.

That said, I'm a happy owner of many Seaton products and wouldn't pay the premium for JL, either. But, if I was looking for a subwoofer for my family room (now that my audio gear is relegated to the basement, lol), I think my wife would have my looking closer to the JL footprint than Seaton's and, to get even close to the performance in the smaller footprint, I'd have to pay (or DIY, and then it'd look like crap, lol).
Absolutely you are spot on. JL Audio subs are excellent performers and have their place - particularly WAF!
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post #157 of 200 Old 11-02-2019, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Look, I've used two JL Audio Fathom f212 subs since 2014 (now for sale with my remodel) and they've been great. Very, very musical and plenty of oomph! However, they cutoff at 20 Hz.

But lets face it for most folks and theaters they are way more than adequate!!!



Tell you one thing - you already have 2 JL Audio Fathom f113 v2 subwoofers. Either one will blow the water out of the M&K subwoofer your integrator recommended. But if you want to get lower than 20 Hz, then other subs can do it and for a better price (at least at msrp). But with 3200 cubic feet, will even 2 of the Seaton F18s or something comparable pressurize your room if you want lift-off? Your theater is about the same cubic feet as Audioguy's theater. Audioguy has a boatload of F18s! Although 2 F18s will give you below 20 Hz, will you really feel it with only 2 of them in a 3200 cubic foot theater? Audioguy, as well as Mark Seaton, have already commented in this thread on that.



Where are you located? If you are not too far along with your home theater changes, you may want to consult with a different integrator. Oh - I looked at your profile - Edmonton, Canada. Interesting. I have a guy who just contacted me off US Audiomart re my sale ad for a Paradigm Persona Subwoofer from Edmonton. Talk about coincidences!


Steve, why did you chose Seaton F18 over JTR Captivator 2400?

Both are 18”, and while the JTR is only $300 bucks more, it has 4” vs 3” displacement, 2400W vs 1400W amplifier ... the JTR seems to get a lot lower for lift off: +- 3 dB @ 12-165 hz (vs 18-200 on Seaton- not sure what “LF adjust” knob sacrifices to get the 3db 12-200 spec ?). Also JTR provides 13,500 cubic inches of cabinet vs 10,200.
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Steve, why did you chose Seaton F18 over JTR Captivator 2400?

Both are 18”, and while the JTR is only $300 bucks more, it has 4” vs 3” displacement, 2400W vs 1400W amplifier ... the JTR seems to get a lot lower for lift off: +- 3 dB @ 12-165 hz (vs 18-200 on Seaton- not sure what “LF adjust” knob sacrifices to get the 3db 12-200 spec ?). Also JTR provides 13,500 cubic inches of cabinet vs 10,200.
With Seaton subs I can have one amp at the cabinet closet at the rear of my theater to drive four 18” subs or 3 21” subs and the pricing works out very reasonable in doing this!
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I had a great chat with Mark Seaton yesterday. Mark is reviewing my theater rebuild info that I gave him, and he is getting back to me with his recommendations regarding # of 18" and/or 21" subwoofers to give me the proper "lift-off". Mark explained this may vary depending upon placement. We agreed on placement along the front screen wall and build into the back new cabinetry going in! Mark is working on the calculations for best sonics given physical space requirements/limitations. I have decided not to use the quarter points along the opposing side walls so as not to clog the aisles.

Mark also recommended using the space above the rear cabinets for one large bass trap. Makes good sense - "Make It So"! This became possible because we took down my Sony VW5000 projector from its ceiling mount, took out the back cabinets/wetbar, and have moved the back wall & cabinets (under construction) another 23" out so the projector is hidden behind that wall (and giving the theater even better acoustical dimensions as Anthony Grimani recommends length of 1.2 to 1.3 X width, which we will now have about 1.65). Thanks Mark.

When its all done, my theater will be 18.25' W x 23.08 L x 11.9167' H (only dimension that changed with renovation is L was 25').

The below photos depict the ongoing construction at the back of my theatre and where the bass trap will be, as well as the material and color of the upcoming new cabinets/shelves where the component racks and disc storage will be located "hidden" from view.
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! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!

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post #160 of 200 Old 11-03-2019, 08:48 AM
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Wow Steve, this is no minor facelift...it is a redo. I'm always amazed when guys here already have impressive theatres but they invest significant time and money to take it to the next level. Bravo!

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Wow Steve, this is no minor facelift...it is a redo. I'm always amazed when guys here already have impressive theatres but they invest significant time and money to take it to the next level. Bravo!
Thanks. my HT OCD (home theater obsessive compulsiveness disorcer) appears to have taken me to the totally crazy level!
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Thanks. my HT OCD (home theater obsessive compulsiveness disorcer) appears to have taken me to the totally crazy level!
Never a destination only a journey with pauses.

Art
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post #163 of 200 Old 11-03-2019, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Never a destination only a journey with pauses.

Art
At age 66 and with this extensive and costly remodel/upgrade, like Audioguy, I say this is it, the FINALE, for me. But even though we may say this is this ever possible to have a final cure to this addiction?
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While the 2nd floor does have some disadvantages, tactile response is not one of them.
Indeed, getting subwoofers up and down the stairs is my number one issue using the 2nd floor for the HT.

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post #165 of 200 Old 11-05-2019, 06:37 AM
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Indeed, getting subwoofers up and down the stairs is my number one issue using the 2nd floor for the HT.

"Down" has never been much of an issue. I bring the shipping box to the theater, load up the sub and slide downstairs. "Up" on the other hand, is most problematic. I have actually, using my back up against the shipping box, pushed it upstairs. Not easy and highly risky !!

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"Down" has never been much of an issue. I bring the shipping box to the theater, load up the sub and slide downstairs. "Up" on the other hand, is most problematic. I have actually, using my back up against the shipping box, pushed it upstairs. Not easy and highly risky !!
I wish it was that easy, the upper staircase is about 2ft wide and has two 90 degree turns. It was about 2" spare space when the PB-13 was carried vertical going up.

One day I will hire a removals company to shift it back down so it can be replaced with 2-4 DIY subs.
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At age 66 and with this extensive and costly remodel/upgrade, like Audioguy, I say this is it, the FINALE, for me. But even though we may say this is this ever possible to have a final cure to this addiction?
After all of my recent upgrades (JVC projector, Panamorph, Lumagen, Trinnov, new amps, more speakers, more subs and new room cosmetics), I decided "enough is enough". That said, and knowing I have said that more than once, I decided to use my wife as an accountability partner.

Quite frankly, I was spending too much time thinking about the "next" thing, instead of enjoying what I already had. Problem solved (for at least 5 years). But to be honest, at this point, and at my age, and short of doing a "Bruzonsky Redo", there really is nothing left to upgrade. So now all of my HT expenses are going to new source material (gotta spend money on something).

We had some friends over last evening and re-watched the last Mission Impossible Movie (Fallout). It was a great reminder of why I have spent what I have on this hobby. The sonics and image are really phenomenal. Furthermore, as we left the theater, our friends commented that while they had seen this movie originally in a commercial theater, it had nowhere near the impact that it did while watching it in our home.

Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][
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I'm still planning on one new ht/audio room build for the future but I don't think I'll be lifting the heavy components myself like I did when I built "the dungeon". I'm clinging to my 40s (just barely!) and the thought of lifting subs and amps and especially the giant Equitech unit (I call it the herniator) just doesn't appeal to me...I'll budget for some movers!

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I'm still planning on one new ht/audio room build for the future but I don't think I'll be lifting the heavy components myself like I did when I built "the dungeon". I'm clinging to my 40s (just barely!) and the thought of lifting subs and amps and especially the giant Equitech unit (I call it the herniator) just doesn't appeal to me...I'll budget for some movers!
YES - When we're dead or infirm we can't enjoy our home theaters the same. I DO NOT want to lift and pack the two JL Audio f212 subwoofers (220 lb each unpacked) that I am selling. Looks like I have a buyer who will fly in from Houston, pack and load them into his rental vehicle, and drive back to Houston. Worth giving a small discount pricewise so I don't end up replacing my other hip!

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
After all of my recent upgrades (JVC projector, Panamorph, Lumagen, Trinnov, new amps, more speakers, more subs and new room cosmetics), I decided "enough is enough". That said, and knowing I have said that more than once, I decided to use my wife as an accountability partner.

Quite frankly, I was spending too much time thinking about the "next" thing, instead of enjoying what I already had. Problem solved (for at least 5 years). But to be honest, at this point, and at my age, and short of doing a "Bruzonsky Redo", there really is nothing left to upgrade. So now all of my HT expenses are going to new source material (gotta spend money on something).

We had some friends over last evening and re-watched the last Mission Impossible Movie (Fallout). It was a great reminder of why I have spent what I have on this hobby. The sonics and image are really phenomenal. Furthermore, as we left the theater, our friends commented that while they had seen this movie originally in a commercial theater, it had nowhere near the impact that it did while watching it in our home.
Chuck, its your fault that I am selling my current subwoofers and moving into a boatload of Seaton subwoofers. You have continued emphasizing what I need for both
"lift-off" to go with the musicality I already have! Thanks a lot!

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!
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post #171 of 200 Old 11-05-2019, 10:32 AM
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Chuck, its your fault that I am selling my current subwoofers and moving into a boatload of Seaton subwoofers. You have continued emphasizing what I need for both
"lift-off" to go with the musicality I already have! Thanks a lot!
I will take full and complete responsibility if it makes you feel better. I don't blame individuals (though they all know who they are). I blame AVSForum. Other than my seating, there is nothing in my theater that I did not hear about from some thread or individual on this forum. And I could not be happier.

And as soon as your room is completed and after Adam has done his thing, I expect to be the first person you contact to tell me how thrilled you are - and you will be. I can assure you, you have not heard REAL bass in your room from your previous subs, regardless of how good they may be. Lots of clean displacement is the key to LFE bliss!
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Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][
Jeremiah 4:1-2

Last edited by audioguy; 11-06-2019 at 06:37 AM.
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post #172 of 200 Old 11-06-2019, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Given he used an Eminence driver (I think) in the SubMersive, it would not surprise me.

Steve: If you put 8 21's in your room, I will be paying you a visit. While you are about 400 miles from Los Angeles, you may end up being tbe the proverbial final straw that sets off the ultimate San Andreas earthquake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGon_kZAVtU
This may well happen. Mark Seaton has been crunching the numbers re placing 4 21" subs along the front wall (26 x 30 x 12.5" deep) and 4 21" subs on the floor at my back cabinets to be constructed (20 x 20" x 24" d). Still to be finalized. I will need to get a hologram of Jerry Lee Lewis singing "There's a Whole Lotta Shakin' Goin' On" (I recently saw the hologram tour of Buddy Holly and Roy Orbison and it was great)!

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!
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post #173 of 200 Old 11-06-2019, 10:11 AM
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This may well happen. Mark Seaton has been crunching the numbers re placing 4 21" subs along the front wall (26 x 30 x 12.5" deep) and 4 21" subs on the floor at my back cabinets to be constructed (20 x 20" x 24" d). Still to be finalized. I will need to get a hologram of Jerry Lee Lewis singing "There's a Whole Lotta Shakin' Goin' On" (I recently saw the hologram tour of Buddy Holly and Roy Orbison and it was great)!
THAT will be some substantial woofage!
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Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][
Jeremiah 4:1-2
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THAT will be some substantial woofage!
Then I can change my AVS Moniker to "WOOF WOOF"!
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https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!
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post #175 of 200 Old 11-07-2019, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Dimensions I gave above for the 21" sealed subwoofers was off - below is correct. Here's what I am ordering. Mark gave me the best placements along the front wall and at the bottom of the back cabinets that are about to be built:

4 21” black oak passive subwoofers, 23.5 W x 23.5 H x 23.5 D (front screen wall)
3 21” black oak passive subwoofers, 30 W x 26 H x 14” D (back cabinets) - (also available 26" W x 30" H x 14" D)
2 4000 watt amps (power 3 subwoofers)
1 4000 watt amp (power 1 subwoofer)

This leaves more than enough room at the rear cabinets for 2 Mid-Atlantic component racks! And plenty of disc storage, too.

Mark spent a lot of time crunching the numbers to figure out best subwoofer placement, which is much appreciated!

The 21" subwoofer drivers are brand new on the market and available the end of this month (November)! 6" voice coils!

So this thread has served its purpose for me - to ensure I obtain proper "lift off" along with musicality!

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Dimensions I gave above for the 21" sealed subwoofers was off - below is correct. Here's what I am ordering. Mark gave me the best placements along the front wall and at the bottom of the back cabinets that are about to be built:

4 21” black oak passive subwoofers, 23.5 W x 23.5 H x 23.5 D (front screen wall)
3 21” black oak passive subwoofers, 30 W x 26 H x 14” D (back cabinets) - (also available 26" W x 30" H x 14" D)
2 4000 watt amps (power 3 subwoofers)
1 4000 watt amp (power 1 subwoofer)

This leaves more than enough room at the rear cabinets for 2 Mid-Atlantic component racks! And plenty of disc storage, too.

Mark spent a lot of time crunching the numbers to figure out best subwoofer placement, which is much appreciated!

So this thread has served its purpose for me - to ensure I obtain proper "lift off" along with musicality!
Yeah, I knew the other size had to be wrong. You can't fit 21" drivers on a 20" x 20" baffle. Once you get these subs in, you should be very happy with the impact they provide.
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post #177 of 200 Old 11-07-2019, 09:03 PM
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^^ Given I use eight of his 18s in a smaller room than yours, these seven 21s should get you pretty close to the same potential displacement per cubic foot of your room as mine. It most certainly will be close enough that you should be able to achieve "lift off". And, as noted previously, you will then see what you were missing with your previous subs.

So what is the current estimated date for you to be able to sit down in your "new" completed theater and watch a movie?

Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][
Jeremiah 4:1-2
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^^ Given I use eight of his 18s in a smaller room than yours, these seven 21s should get you pretty close to the same potential displacement per cubic foot of your room as mine. It most certainly will be close enough that you should be able to achieve "lift off". And, as noted previously, you will then see what you were missing with your previous subs.

So what is the current estimated date for you to be able to sit down in your "new" completed theater and watch a movie?
If we beat the New Year I will be most happy! But I have my doubts that we'll get "lift off" that "quick"!

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!
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post #179 of 200 Old 11-08-2019, 06:15 PM
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The Eminence 21's have been trickling out for a few months. I've accumulated 4. I have 2 running now in X21's and 2 still need enclosures. They do not disappoint. 7 should be stellar.
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post #180 of 200 Old 11-12-2019, 06:07 PM
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Hope I'm getting there, 10 total F18s now, testing and calibration on Thursday.









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