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post #181 of 232 Old 11-12-2019, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Hope I'm getting there, 10 total F18s now, testing and calibration on Thursday.



















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Impressive!! Art- what’s the thinking behind the sideways positioning of the F18s?


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post #182 of 232 Old 11-12-2019, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Hope I'm getting there, 10 total F18s now, testing and calibration on Thursday.









Art
Very nice!!!

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #183 of 232 Old 11-12-2019, 09:14 PM
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Steve: Art's 10 F18's (plus whatever other subs he is using) will be providing the same (or slightly more) "lift-off" than your 7 21s (at least based upon square inches of drivers. This does not include the excursion of each. But to be sure, you need to up your order to get back into first place!!!!

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post #184 of 232 Old 11-12-2019, 11:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Steve: Art's 10 F18's (plus whatever other subs he is using) will be providing the same (or slightly more) "lift-off" than your 7 2 (at least based upon square inches of drivers. This does not include the excursion of each. But to be sure, you need to up your order to get back into first place!!!!
Actually, Mark's calculations showed that I could add 2 more 21"ers at the front screen wall to the 4 going there already, but Mark said it really wouldn't add any acoustical benefit. And as my screen is up "high" I could even stack 6 pairs of 2 subs each at the front screen wall! Sometimes one has to resist temptation! Oh well!

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #185 of 232 Old 11-13-2019, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Actually, Mark's calculations showed that I could add 2 more 21"ers at the front screen wall to the 4 going there already, but Mark said it really wouldn't add any acoustical benefit
"no acoustical benefit?" What does Mark know ? He, of all people, should know that there is no such thing as too much woofage.

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I could even stack 6 pairs of 2 subs each at the front screen wall!
Then you most certainly should !!

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Sometimes one has to resist temptation!
No, no, no!! As the Borg said on 'Star Trek:The Next Generation': "Resistance is Futile".

Come on Steve: Go Big or Go Home!
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post #186 of 232 Old 11-13-2019, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post
Hope I'm getting there, 10 total F18s now, testing and calibration on Thursday.

Art
Based upon that image, if you are going to buy more, Mark needs to get taller.

Given you are on the 2nd floor, it should be quite impressive. I, too, am on the 2nd floor and the tactile response creates an even more immersive experience.
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post #187 of 232 Old 11-13-2019, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by gwthacker View Post
Impressive!! Art- what’s the thinking behind the sideways positioning of the F18s?


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Space is the short answer. The previous Submersives had the same orientation. We joked that we could probably fit one more on top of those.

Art
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post #188 of 232 Old 11-13-2019, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Based upon that image, if you are going to buy more, Mark needs to get taller.
And Art, I lugged all those up from the truck and helped hoist them there.

Art
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post #189 of 232 Old 11-13-2019, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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When Art fires up all of his subwoofers, all 10 for the first time, his 2nd floor theater will literally "take off" from the rest of the house!
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Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #190 of 232 Old 11-13-2019, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
^^ Given I use eight of his 18s in a smaller room than yours, these seven 21s should get you pretty close to the same potential displacement per cubic foot of your room as mine. It most certainly will be close enough that you should be able to achieve "lift off". And, as noted previously, you will then see what you were missing with your previous subs.

So what is the current estimated date for you to be able to sit down in your "new" completed theater and watch a movie?
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Given he used an Eminence driver (I think) in the SubMersive, it would not surprise me.

Steve: If you put 8 21's in your room, I will be paying you a visit. While you are about 400 miles from Los Angeles, you may end up being tbe the proverbial final straw that sets off the ultimate San Andreas earthquake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGon_kZAVtU


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^^ Given I use eight of his 18s in a smaller room than yours, these seven 21s should get you pretty close to the same potential displacement per cubic foot of your room as mine. It most certainly will be close enough that you should be able to achieve "lift off". And, as noted previously, you will then see what you were missing with your previous subs.

So what is the current estimated date for you to be able to sit down in your "new" completed theater and watch a movie?
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"no acoustical benefit?" What does Mark know ? He, of all people, should know that there is no such thing as too much woofage.

Then you most certainly should !!

No, no, no!! As the Borg said on 'Star Trek:The Next Generation': "Resistance is Futile".

Come on Steve: Go Big or Go Home!
If I stick to 7 then you may not visit me? Oh well!

Its not that your room is smaller than mine. Pretty similar length and height. Your room is just shorter than mine heightwise!!!

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #191 of 232 Old 11-13-2019, 09:16 AM
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Home Theater Subwoofers - How Many & Which and How's Your Liftoff?

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post #192 of 232 Old 11-13-2019, 09:18 AM
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My floor already moves like a subwoofer diaphragm.
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post #193 of 232 Old 11-13-2019, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
When Art fires up all of his subwoofers, all 10 for the first time, his 2nd floor theater will literally "take off" from the rest of the house!
When I asked Mark if this will give me a more visceral experience he just had this sort of under his breath low evil laugh.

Art
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post #194 of 232 Old 11-13-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Actually, Mark's calculations showed that I could add 2 more 21"ers at the front screen wall to the 4 going there already, but Mark said it really wouldn't add any acoustical benefit. And as my screen is up "high" I could even stack 6 pairs of 2 subs each at the front screen wall! Sometimes one has to resist temptation! Oh well!
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
"no acoustical benefit?" What does Mark know ? He, of all people, should know that there is no such thing as too much woofage.

Then you most certainly should !!

No, no, no!! As the Borg said on 'Star Trek:The Next Generation': "Resistance is Futile".

Come on Steve: Go Big or Go Home!
I should clarify that there's very minimal advantage in room acoustic interaction. The benefit would be in total acoustic headroom. The 2x4000W amplifier powering the front 4 subs can drive a maximum of 3 of our 21" sealed modules per channel, so adding 2 more would be simply linking them in parallel and redistributing the spacing. Steve is making such a monumental jump in capability from his previous subwoofer system that I figured we can leave the 2 extra subs to easily scratch such an itch any time down the road.

Art was already acclimated to 4 SubMersives and 2 of our 18s as calibrated by me. If we were going to do an upgrade and move things around behind the screen, it had to be well worth it.

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post #195 of 232 Old 11-13-2019, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I should clarify that there's very minimal advantage in room acoustic interaction. The benefit would be in total acoustic headroom. The 2x4000W amplifier powering the front 4 subs can drive a maximum of 3 of our 21" sealed modules per channel, so adding 2 more would be simply linking them in parallel and redistributing the spacing. Steve is making such a monumental jump in capability from his previous subwoofer system that I figured we can leave the 2 extra subs to easily scratch such an itch any time down the road.

Art was already acclimated to 4 SubMersives and 2 of our 18s as calibrated by me. If we were going to do an upgrade and move things around behind the screen, it had to be well worth it.
In terms of "acoustic headroom", if I were to add 2 more 21" sealed subwoofers at the front of my theater, from both an objective and subjective standpoint, what would I gain (besides getting Audioguy off my back!)? Can you give me an example of what I would experience on certain scenes from certain movies and how I would perceive the difference? Or are my planned 3 21" subs in the back and 4 21" subs in the front the "gold standard" beyond which it will be hard to tell subjectively regardless of objective improvement?

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #196 of 232 Old 11-13-2019, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
In terms of "acoustic headroom", if I were to add 2 more 21" sealed subwoofers at the front of my theater, from both an objective and subjective standpoint, what would I gain (besides getting Audioguy off my back!)? Can you give me an example of what I would experience on certain scenes from certain movies and how I would perceive the difference? Or are my planned 3 21" subs in the back and 4 21" subs in the front the "gold standard" beyond which it will be hard to tell subjectively regardless of objective improvement?
We are talking about "bragging rights" not performance. I would be massively surprised if increasing from 7 to some larger number would buy you anything - other than bragging rights!!
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The mid bass slam in your room is going to be epic, and I'd dare say you will have more of these in your room than anyone else in the world for the time being.

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post #198 of 232 Old 11-13-2019, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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The mid bass slam in your room is going to be epic, and I'd dare say you will have more of these in your room than anyone else in the world for the time being.
7 of these will be a “gorilla killa” even if a few more would give me “bragging rights”!
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Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #199 of 232 Old 11-14-2019, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
In terms of "acoustic headroom", if I were to add 2 more 21" sealed subwoofers at the front of my theater, from both an objective and subjective standpoint, what would I gain (besides getting Audioguy off my back!)? Can you give me an example of what I would experience on certain scenes from certain movies and how I would perceive the difference? Or are my planned 3 21" subs in the back and 4 21" subs in the front the "gold standard" beyond which it will be hard to tell subjectively regardless of objective improvement?
What you get: More good stuff.

There is no down side to adding 2 more. Ultimately the dynamic limits of your Aerial Acoustics speakers or the effectiveness of the acoustic treatments you are adding will probably set the limits of useful capability unless you have some presets with the subs running much more aggressively. More woofers almost always further reduce the distortion at moderate levels, but it's just a decision of where resources are best utilized. In short, 7 is enough for what you are calling "lift off" while you might have questioned the need for 6 subs across the front of the room. On a plus side, 6 of the shallow 30" x 26" subs set 30" wide would fill 15' of your 18+' wide room. That would be about 6-6.5" between each sub and 3-3.5" between the end subs and corners.

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post #200 of 232 Old 11-14-2019, 07:54 AM
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On a more serious note, and if my math serves me correctly, 7 of the 21s should provide you about the same displacement per cubic foot of space in your theater as do 8 18's in mine (not sure about drivers excursion numbers). And that experience is quite pleasing. And I have been known to play my system very near reference. So, you should be good on the "lift off" factor.

Mark does make a very important point: it is quite possible that the limiting factor in your room may well be your speakers (unless you run your subs REALLY hot). Mine are quite efficient (94dB for the LCRs and 92 for the other ear level speakers). He also makes another great point: given what you are coming from in the LFE department, you will be blown away by the difference, even if you ONLY had 4 of the 21s.
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OK Chuck/Audioguy. I have you down to visit me definitely now. I decided what the heck, and ordered 2 more of the 21" sealed subs - so I'll have 6 in front and 3 in back! Much thanks to you for talking me into all of this stuff!

Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
OK Chuck/Audioguy. I have you down to visit me definitely now. I decided what the heck, and ordered 2 more of the 21" sealed subs - so I'll have 6 in front and 3 in back! Much thanks to you for talking me into all of this stuff!
Hey Steve,








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post #203 of 232 Old 11-19-2019, 01:30 PM
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All hail woofer king bruzonsky!

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post #204 of 232 Old 11-19-2019, 04:30 PM
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OK Chuck/Audioguy. I have you down to visit me definitely now. I decided what the heck, and ordered 2 more of the 21" sealed subs - so I'll have 6 in front and 3 in back! Much thanks to you for talking me into all of this stuff!
You are welcome:

Here is what I am comfortable saying: You will LOVE the amount of ultra clean, ultra tight, ultra extended, mega impactful bass and enormous headroom you will have. Think if me when you are smiling listening to action movies but don't think of me when you are balancing your check book (or when your house falls down)!!

Given the cubic foot difference in our two rooms, you will have the approximate same woofer driver square inches (slightly more) than I do. And it really is nice to know that I will never overtax my LFE channel. Congrats!!! You are easily The new King of Woofage.
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Darn, I had it for a day I thought.

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post #206 of 232 Old 11-19-2019, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Darn, I had it for a day I thought.

Art
Exactly!! HA! HA!

Mark Seaton told me today that he just finished your sub stacks and they sound wonderful - one can't even tell they're there unless there's a reason to hear them - and that's how it should be. Congrats!
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Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #207 of 232 Old 11-19-2019, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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All hail woofer king bruzonsky!
Reminds me of the Steely Dan song "King of the World"!

Nah! It won't be longer than 3-6 months before someone dethrones me and a bunch of F18s are for sale used. Just watch.
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Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #208 of 232 Old 11-19-2019, 08:00 PM
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Great stuff!!! Love the woofage and I’m sure the sound will be amazing. Although I think Rob Hahn might retain the title .


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post #209 of 232 Old 11-19-2019, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Rob Hahn is unbeatable. But I think his theater is by far the biggest so for now my woofage per cubic foot may be "King of the Hill" - temporarily!
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Theater Renovation: 3 Aerial Acoustics 7ts & 6 7LCRs; 13 Triad Rotating Silver/9 Sat; 9 Seaton 21" sealed subwoofers; Trinnov Altitude 32 SSP; 3 Theta Digital Prometheus, Trinnov Amplitude 8 & 8M, and ATI AT526NC amplifiers; Sony VW5000 projector; Lumagen Radiance Pro; Panamorph DCR lens; Stewart Filmscreen Vistascope 14' wide 2.40 SnoMatte 100 screen; Kaleidescape & Pioneer UDP-LX500 4k players; Apple TV 4k; TIVO Bolt OTA.
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post #210 of 232 Old 11-20-2019, 07:08 AM
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The enormous volume of Rob's theater puts it in a different class. It is in a class by itself for many other reasons but certainly he needed those subs.

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