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post #1 of 90 Old 08-28-2019, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Home Theater Subwoofers - How Many & Which and How's Your Liftoff?

As I am renovating/upgrading my dedicated home theatre, I find myself questioning everything so my revamp gives me full satisfaction, without Adam Pelz having to come back repeatedly with me making more changes. HA! (Adam is coming out after my installer gets everything done!).

I currently have and have planned 2 JL Audio f212 subwoofers (2 12" woofers each sub, sealed) and 2 Paradigm Persona subwoofers (6 8" woofers each sub, sealed). Fast, tight, musical subs.
My theatre is 18' 3" wide, 25' long, 12' high!

In terms of square inches, now many inches do I have of planned subwoofers, and as some other AVS Forum members seem to love the 18" subwoofers, how many 18" subwoofers (sealed) do my subwoofers translate to? And how many such 18" subwoofers (sealed) do other AVS Forum member theatre owners have in their theatres to accomplish what they want in terms of bass performance and liftoff?

I use the term liftoff as I found that Wisdom Audio's CEDIA 2019 demo had that, where the bass was musical yet you could feel it under your rump/butt with some nice liftoff!

The area of a circle is π r2 (3.14159 times the radius squared of the circle). Radius is half of the diameter of a circle. JL Audio f212 has 2 12” woofers. 2 x 3.14159 x 6 x 6 = 226.2”
Paradigm Personal has 6 8” woofers. 6 x 3.14159 x 4 x 4 = 301.6”. So my planned subwoofers = 1,055.60”. An 18" woofer, 3.14159 x 9 x 9 = 254.47”. So my planned subwoofers = approximately 4 18” subwoofers.

So How Many and What Subwoofers Do You Have and How's Your Liftoff & Bass? And what's the dimensions of your theatre?

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!
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post #2 of 90 Old 08-28-2019, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Googling I found that Wisdom Audio in their CEDIA 2018 demo used 4 STS RTL (regnerative transmission line) subwoofers. These have dual 15" woofers each subwoofers. 8 x 3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5 = 1,413.72".

https://www.technologyintegrator.net...at-cedia-2018/

And they sure had liftoff!
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https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!

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post #3 of 90 Old 08-28-2019, 08:32 AM
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Home Theater Subwoofers - How Many & Which and How's Your Liftoff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
So How Many and What Subwoofers Do You Have and How's Your Liftoff & Bass? And what's the dimensions of your theatre?

Eight (8) Seaton Sound F18 subwoofers (each one having an 18” driver). Liftoff is incredible (recent guests thought I had bass shakers in my seats), bass is extremely taut for music, and as powerful as one could desire for movies. Dimensions of my theater are 16’ wide and 30’ long.




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post #4 of 90 Old 08-28-2019, 07:33 PM
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Steve, it's not the area of the woofer that matters so much but the DISPLACEMENT. That is the area of the driver x excursion. Based on previous calculations, the F113 was equivalent to some "average excursion" 18 inchers. I have 4 of the F113s and they pretty much meet my needs handily. I don't often crank it to the point of running out of headroom. I briefly thought about getting 4 monster subs with the 24 inch drivers but it would change/ruin the aesthetic of my smallish room (17w x 24.5l x 8h). Next build, lol.

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post #5 of 90 Old 08-28-2019, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
I briefly thought about getting 4 monster subs with the 24 inch drivers but it would change/ruin the aesthetic of my smallish room (17w x 24.5l x 8h). Next build, lol.

4 24s might ruin your entire HOUSE!
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post #6 of 90 Old 08-28-2019, 09:24 PM
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Have you considered building subs into a riser to achieve “liftoff”? I built a mini riser with four 12 inch woofers built in ala the BOSS thread and it a added the tactile response I had been longing for. It was a very cheap and simple upgrade that really adds a lot and fills in what I was missing in my LFE response. Take a look here for more information about the concept https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...y-theater.html


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post #7 of 90 Old 08-29-2019, 05:29 AM
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As @The Bogg noted above, "there is no replacement for displacement". But I would add something almost just as important - extension.

I have been helping someone re-do his theater. His room is gigantic [it's actually multiple rooms] and was using two JL Audio subs. Clean, tight bass but (a) those two subs were far too few to fill that space and (b), they start going due south at just below 20Hz.

I recommended and he agreed to sell off the JLs and replace them with (6) Seaton F18s. As an FYI, it would probably take at least 16 to 24 of the F18s to provide enough air movement [displacement] to pressurize that space.

But, the improvement was dramatic. Yes, moving more air was a huge improvement, but on many action movies, the extension was every bit as important and obvious. His LFE channel is now down 5dB at 7Hz vs being down 15dB at 15Hz with his JL subs.

Assuming the subs in your calculations all had equivalent output (similar displacement) you are way "under sub'd" if you are really wanting to pressure your space. Your cubic footage is 1.6 times as large as mine. I have 8 Seaton F18's (in ~3400 cf). @BrolicBeast has a similar sized space, and also with 8 F18s. So to have the equivalent, and to obtain "lift off" you will need a lot more woofage - which is what I shared with you prior to making the sub decision you did.
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post #8 of 90 Old 08-29-2019, 05:36 AM
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As @The Bogg noted above, "there is no replacement for displacement". But I would add something almost just as important - extension.

I have been helping someone re-do his theater. His room is gigantic [it's actually multiple rooms] and was using two JL Audio subs. Clean, tight bass but (a) those two subs were far too few to fill that space and (b), they start going due south at just below 20Hz.

I recommended and he agreed to sell off the JLs and replace them with (6) Seaton F18s. As an FYI, it would probably take at least 16 to 24 of the F18s to provide enough air movement [displacement] to pressurize that space.

But, the improvement was dramatic. Yes, moving more air was a huge improvement, but on many action movies, the extension was every bit as important and obvious. His LFE channel is now down 5dB at 7Hz vs being down 15dB at 15Hz with his JL subs.

Assuming the subs in your calculations all had equivalent output (similar displacement) you are way "under sub'd" if you are really wanting to pressurize your space. Your cubic footage is 1.6 times as large as mine. I have 8 Seaton F18's (in ~3400 cf). @BrolicBeast has a similar sized space (about ~3800 cf), and also with 8 Seaton F18s. So to have the equivalent, and to obtain "lift off" you will need a lot more woofage - which is what I shared with you prior to making the sub decision you did.
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post #9 of 90 Old 08-29-2019, 05:38 AM
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I totally agree with @audioguy . - I’d recommend checking out some recent high-end builds (@lasalle , @LJG , and @Ash Sharma come to mind), many of which use multiple large-diameter subwoofers in order to get a truly high-end bass experience.


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post #10 of 90 Old 08-29-2019, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
As I am renovating/upgrading my dedicated home theatre, I find myself questioning everything so my revamp gives me full satisfaction, without Adam Pelz having to come back repeatedly with me making more changes. HA! (Adam is coming out after my installer gets everything done!).

I currently have and have planned 2 JL Audio f212 subwoofers (2 12" woofers each sub, sealed) and 2 Paradigm Persona subwoofers (6 8" woofers each sub, sealed). Fast, tight, musical subs.
My theatre is 18' 3" wide, 25' long, 12' high!

In terms of square inches, now many inches do I have of planned subwoofers, and as some other AVS Forum members seem to love the 18" subwoofers, how many 18" subwoofers (sealed) do my subwoofers translate to?
Each of your F212 subs are roughly comparable to a high excursion 18" woofer. The 6x8" woofers of your Paradigm subs add up to the cone area of an 18" woofer per box, but most likely have 50-60% the excursion capabilities of your F212 woofers. Depending on what exact models you are comparing to, that's probably comparable to 3-4 18" sealed subs. The Paradigm does allow for deeper extension, while the JL's put a fairly hard stop on energy below 15-18Hz to maximize what they can do above 20Hz in their relatively compact enclosures.

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post #11 of 90 Old 08-29-2019, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Each of your F212 subs are roughly comparable to a high excursion 18" woofer. The 6x8" woofers of your Paradigm subs add up to the cone area of an 18" woofer per box, but most likely have 50-60% the excursion capabilities of your F212 woofers. Depending on what exact models you are comparing to, that's probably comparable to 3-4 18" sealed subs. The Paradigm does allow for deeper extension, while the JL's put a fairly hard stop on energy below 15-18Hz to maximize what they can do above 20Hz in their relatively compact enclosures.
My calculations match yours. And I don't think 4 18's is going to provide the "lift off" Steve is looking for, even if they were your 18's - or any other 18's. That is a lot of cubic feet to pressurize. I, of course, don't know what Steve's definition of "lift off" is, but at a minimum, I would recommend at least 8 18's.
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post #12 of 90 Old 08-31-2019, 09:39 AM
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Steve
My room has similar dimensions to yours- except ceiling I’m 10’ around ceiling baffle and 9’ to baffle.

I have 4 Seaton F18s upfront. I have four Triad inwall balancing subs in back. Not sure how much they add to things. Adam has done my calibrations. I was considering adding 2 F18s and checking with Mark about upgrading inwalls with some custom subs- but after upgrading to Trinnov and it’s bass management, was blown away.


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post #13 of 90 Old 08-31-2019, 01:29 PM
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In a small room, is it necessary to have rear subwoofers? For example, in a room that is 12 ft long x 11 ft wide x 9.5 ft high, will two SubMersives up front be enough or would adding rear subwoofers make a worthwhile improvement? I know more subwoofers are usually always better but thought I would still ask. This is for a single row of two seats.
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post #14 of 90 Old 08-31-2019, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post
In a small room, is it necessary to have rear subwoofers? For example, in a room that is 12 ft long x 11 ft wide x 9.5 ft high, will two SubMersives up front be enough or would adding rear subwoofers make a worthwhile improvement? I know more subwoofers are usually always better but thought I would still ask. This is for a single row of two seats.
The reason for multiple subwoofers is generally to minimize differences in frequency response between different seats. With a single row of two seats, 2 subs in the proper locations will perform fine.

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post #15 of 90 Old 09-01-2019, 04:40 AM
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Maybe all that vibration from 8 subs will provide “lift off” in other places too?

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post #16 of 90 Old 09-01-2019, 08:41 PM
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I use 2 JTR Captivator subwoofers in my theater. Each subwoofer has an 18" woofer and a 1400watt amp. My subwoofer goal was for them to be able to play with my JBL's at reference level without any strain or compression and sound good. They can do that and then some. Im very satisfied. I went thru 3 other sub brands before I got the desired results. My theater is 20.2x14.0x7.6.
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post #17 of 90 Old 09-02-2019, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post
I use 2 JTR Captivator subwoofers in my theater. Each subwoofer has an 18" woofer and a 1400watt amp. My subwoofer goal was for them to be able to play with my JBL's at reference level without any strain or compression and sound good. They can do that and then some. Im very satisfied. I went thru 3 other sub brands before I got the desired results. My theater is 20.2x14.0x7.6.
That means you fall into the "sane" department.

Playing at reference level and doing so to create, as Steve called it, "Lift Off" are not necessarily the same. I don't need 8 18's to play at reference (115dB peaks) but in order to have "Lift Off", I do need close to what I have (I know 7 works and 6 may as well). And in the FWIW department, running frequency sweeps on subs is a lot more demanding than being able to handle 115dB peaks. In my case, I can get close to 125dB on sweeps prior to any serious compression. (My bride is not impressed on those occasions I choose to do that test. Many large objects in our home begin the equivalent of levitation).
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post #18 of 90 Old 09-02-2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
That means you fall into the "sane" department.

Playing at reference level and doing so to create, as Steve called it, "Lift Off" are not necessarily the same. I don't need 8 18's to play at reference (115dB peaks) but in order to have "Lift Off", I do need close to what I have (I know 7 works and 6 may as well). And in the FWIW department, running frequency sweeps on subs is a lot more demanding than being able to handle 115dB peaks. In my case, I can get close to 125dB on sweeps prior to any serious compression. (My bride is not impressed on those occasions I choose to do that test. Many large objects in our home begin the equivalent of levitation).
Indeed I am on the sane side, although my friends beg to differ lol.

"Lift off" is a relative term. If you got a guy with a rotary sub hes gunna say your 8 subs alone can't do it. Im in the 120s (119-120barely)when I do sweeps. If you have 8 18s you should be in the 130+s. Ive heard a couple home theaters with 8+ subs and they are the most impressive when everythings boasted down low and/or all together. Its a lot of fun for sure.

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post #19 of 90 Old 09-02-2019, 12:06 PM
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Indeed I am on the sane side, although my friends beg to differ lol.

"Lift off" is a relative term. (If you got a guy with a rotary sub hes gunna say your 8 subs alone can't do it. Im in the 120s when I do sweeps. If you have 8 18s you should be in the 130+s. Ive heard a couple home theaters with 8+ subs and they are the most impressive when everythings boasted down low and/or all together. Its a lot of fun for sure.
I would agree that "Lift Off" is a relative term (as is "sane", by the way). I'm sure my 8 18's can reach 130db but NOT without severe compression. If all 8 were in a single spot that created a flat response, might work but my front 4 have a huge dip which my back 4 help to cancel, so I end up with a flat response. And, I don't need 130dB. And I'm positive I don't want to run a bass frequency sweep at those SPLs. My two story house would become a single story house.
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post #20 of 90 Old 09-02-2019, 01:07 PM
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I have 10 F-18’s in my HT. 8 (2 stacks of 4) behind the screen and one on each side wall across from the MLP (with the ability to add an additional slave on each sidewall). I don’t feel its lacking.
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post #21 of 90 Old 09-02-2019, 01:26 PM
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I would agree that "Lift Off" is a relative term (as is "sane", by the way). I'm sure my 8 18's can reach 130db but NOT without severe compression. If all 8 were in a single spot that created a flat response, might work but my front 4 have a huge dip which my back 4 help to cancel, so I end up with a flat response. And, I don't need 130dB. And I'm positive I don't want to run a bass frequency sweep at those SPLs. My two story house would become a single story house.
Thats true. And IMO the true beauty of high multiples of subs is the ability to play loud with minimal compression as well as even coverage. Even just my two 18s running sweeps makes my house moan and groan let alone more mutliples like you!

Its all about HT goals. I had a goal and met it and am very satisfied. Before I got into home theater I learned about what its like to chase high SPL in the world of extreme car audio. Let me tell you home theater bass is childs play compared to the SPL in that world. People wont even glance your way unless your sub-bass can do well into the 150s. My craziest build was a Toyota Tacoma that did 158db at 35hz in Outlaw class. After those type of decibles there is just nothing in the cinema world ive came across that can compare. Not that 130db in a home theater isn't super impressive!! It is!! Just another area that is "relative" in a world of bass.

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post #22 of 90 Old 09-02-2019, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
I have 10 F-18’s in my HT. 8 (2 stacks of 4) behind the screen and one on each side wall across from the MLP (with the ability to add an additional slave on each sidewall). I don’t feel its lacking.
Lasalle nothing about your theater is lacking IMO!
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post #23 of 90 Old 09-02-2019, 01:45 PM
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I have 10 F-18’s in my HT. 8 (2 stacks of 4) behind the screen and one on each side wall across from the MLP (with the ability to add an additional slave on each sidewall). I don’t feel its lacking.
I don't know the cubic footage of your room, but unless you are somewhere well north of about 5000+, you are most definitely not lacking.

As the saying goes: "No replacement for displacement"
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post #24 of 90 Old 09-02-2019, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
As I am renovating/upgrading my dedicated home theatre, I find myself questioning everything so my revamp gives me full satisfaction, without Adam Pelz having to come back repeatedly with me making more changes. HA! (Adam is coming out after my installer gets everything done!).

I currently have and have planned 2 JL Audio f212 subwoofers (2 12" woofers each sub, sealed) and 2 Paradigm Persona subwoofers (6 8" woofers each sub, sealed). Fast, tight, musical subs.
My theatre is 18' 3" wide, 25' long, 12' high!

In terms of square inches, now many inches do I have of planned subwoofers, and as some other AVS Forum members seem to love the 18" subwoofers, how many 18" subwoofers (sealed) do my subwoofers translate to? And how many such 18" subwoofers (sealed) do other AVS Forum member theatre owners have in their theatres to accomplish what they want in terms of bass performance and liftoff?

I use the term liftoff as I found that Wisdom Audio's CEDIA 2019 demo had that, where the bass was musical yet you could feel it under your rump/butt with some nice liftoff!

The area of a circle is π r2 (3.14159 times the radius squared of the circle). Radius is half of the diameter of a circle. JL Audio f212 has 2 12” woofers. 2 x 3.14159 x 6 x 6 = 226.2”
Paradigm Personal has 6 8” woofers. 6 x 3.14159 x 4 x 4 = 301.6”. So my planned subwoofers = 1,055.60”. An 18" woofer, 3.14159 x 9 x 9 = 254.47”. So my planned subwoofers = approximately 4 18” subwoofers.

So How Many and What Subwoofers Do You Have and How's Your Liftoff & Bass? And what's the dimensions of your theatre?
the sense of musicality comes from lots of different things:
1) obviously the ability to move a lot of air with limited distortion. the larger and more numerous subs (efficiency) allows you to achieve very low distortion at "normal" listening levels (where you don't go deaf). I have 8x15" dayton audio based home made subs. I cut the boxes and made these for perfect fit into my walls (hence the 15" and not 18" due to depth).
2) amplification - does not have to be too pricey but you do need a lot for low distortion. Speaker Power for example produces a great deal of excess power where you are NEVER straining the amp. It also has triggers and other stuff to make home theater setup fairly straightforward.
3) The more subs you have, the smoother the total room response up to an approximate 4 subs where it becomes diminishing returns.
4) placement of the subs is largely guided by aesthetics and ergonomics for most people as opposed to acoustic linearity. If anything you want a "peak" sitting right at the 50-70hz range for natural punch and the liftoff feel you are looking for while being flat to the degree that it is possible between 15-50hz. Unless your main speakers achieve this punch based on their placement and your seating position, I would suggest that you have no choice but to crossover your subs higher and fill this gap.
5) using a mini-dsp (4 channel) and doing the Andy C multisubwoofer optimization can be very effective as well.
6) once all that is done, you want to be able to tweak your final target curve to resemble some of the experimentally tested curves like the "harman curve".

The punch region of bass is extremely important to get the best audio for many types of music and for me is even more important that subterranean bass needed for movies (although i like both).

I went so far as doing midbass modules behind the seats to get that extra 50-70hz punch right to the chest and this worked out great. This might not work for most people's space.


Most people think their subs are the problem with their sound... for 99% of people that is not the issue but one of the other factors that they have no idea how to fix... For the average buyer, minimum 2 subs, front corners of the room is probably a good start before going down the rabbit hole. Those of us OCD enough about this nonsense will eventually get the job done by pure force of will. Calling an audio engineer to take care of it might be dramatically cheaper in the long run if you don't want to take your whole lifetime in search of perfect bass...

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post #25 of 90 Old 09-02-2019, 04:21 PM
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The reason for multiple subwoofers is generally to minimize differences in frequency response between different seats. With a single row of two seats, 2 subs in the proper locations will perform fine.
Yep either hire this guy... or just do what he just said and call it a day.

It really depends on how much of a bass hobbyist you want to be...

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post #26 of 90 Old 09-02-2019, 05:09 PM
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Lasalle nothing about your theater is lacking IMO!
It doesn't have enough Bogg in it.
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post #27 of 90 Old 09-02-2019, 05:15 PM
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Most people think their subs are the problem with their sound... for 99% of people that is not the issue but one of the other factors that they have no idea how to fix... For the average buyer, minimum 2 subs, front corners of the room is probably a good start before going down the rabbit hole. Those of us OCD enough about this nonsense will eventually get the job done by pure force of will. Calling an audio engineer to take care of it might be dramatically cheaper in the long run if you don't want to take your whole lifetime in search of perfect bass...
And for the average buyer, since this is often misunderstood, placing multiple subs in corners, 1/4 points or even midpoints only gives you a more similar seat-to-seat frequency response. It does not have anything to do with a nice smooth or flat frequency response at those locations. It does mean that when you start to apply PEQ, the seats with similar response behave the same.

Subs in corners gives you some extra gain, since you are energizing room modes in all 3 axes, so you generally will not get anything closely resembling a smooth flat frequency response.

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post #28 of 90 Old 09-03-2019, 11:11 AM
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Four of these ought to do the trick (Seaton, DSS, and Funk Audio - eat your hearts out):

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post #29 of 90 Old 09-03-2019, 12:46 PM
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Four of these ought to do the trick (Seaton, DSS, and Funk Audio - eat your hearts out):

Is this for ones car ?

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post #30 of 90 Old 09-03-2019, 02:06 PM
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Is this for ones car ?

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More like one’s motor home!
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