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LeeK0Resolution 02-05-2020 10:08 PM

Projector Advise/ Crazy Ideas for HDR and 185” Screen
 
Hi all,

I am currently looking at a 185” 16:9 microperf screen but have only got a projector budget of $35k. I currently have a bunch of crazy ideas and would like your help to rule them out quickly. Before I start to go down the many rabbit holes. :)

• Reduce screen size to around 156” and use a single projector (Sony VPL-VW995ES, RRP $35,000 – 2200 Lumens)
• Normal dual projector stack (2x JVC DLA-RS3000, RRP $17,999 – 2200 Lumens per unit)
• Dual stack projectors split by brightness (little bit like the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS method. 2x JVC DLA-RS3000, RRP $17,999 – 2200 Lumens per unit)
• 4 low cost projectors with edge blending (4x JVC DLA-RS2000 with Nvidia Quadro, RRP $8,999 – 1900 Lumens per unit)
• Hold off for a while and go with something like the Sony SRX-R510P

Thank you in advance for your feedback, especially for any blunt responses.

markmon1 02-06-2020 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeK0Resolution (Post 59206186)
Hi all,

I am currently looking at a 185” 16:9 microperf screen but have only got a projector budget of $35k. I currently have a bunch of crazy ideas and would like your help to rule them out quickly. Before I start to go down the many rabbit holes. :)

• Reduce screen size to around 156” and use a single projector (Sony VPL-VW995ES, RRP $35,000 – 2200 Lumens)
• Normal dual projector stack (2x JVC DLA-RS3000, RRP $17,999 – 2200 Lumens per unit)
• Dual stack projectors split by brightness (little bit like the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS method. 2x JVC DLA-RS3000, RRP $17,999 – 2200 Lumens per unit)
• 4 low cost projectors with edge blending (4x JVC DLA-RS2000 with Nvidia Quadro, RRP $8,999 – 1900 Lumens per unit)
• Hold off for a while and go with something like the Sony SRX-R510P

Thank you in advance for your feedback, especially for any blunt responses.

If you're considering #1 , I'd think JVC RS4500 (3000 lumens) is a better option than the sony.
If you shop around, you can probably find a 5000ES for this price range.

You could start with something like a BenQ LK990 (6000 lumens) and see what comes out next year.

Tedd 02-06-2020 03:17 AM

Isn't the dual Sim2 a 1080P solution, and is the Lumagen that makes it happen, commercially available?

LeeK0Resolution 02-06-2020 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markmon1 (Post 59206334)
If you're considering #1, I'd think JVC RS4500 (3000 lumens) is a better option than the sony.
If you shop around, you can probably find a 5000ES for this price range.

You could start with something like a BenQ LK990 (6000 lumens) and see what comes out next year.

One of my friends have got the first release version of the 5000ES. SDR content is great but HDR is sub-optimal. (Might be his setup/early build of the unit)

Would not expect much until the end of next year even if something is announced at CES 2021. Unless someone knows different?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tedd (Post 59206512)
Isn't the dual Sim2 a 1080P solution, and is the Lumagen that makes it happen, commercially available?

Dual Sim2 is 1080p and not looking at that unit due to the price.

Lumagen is available today but the Dual Sim2 design includes a lot more stuff to get that picture result (custom lenses, etc). Hoping that I could tune 2 lower cost units and get some of the benefits from a similar design.

markmon1 02-06-2020 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeK0Resolution (Post 59210268)
One of my friends have got the first release version of the 5000ES. SDR content is great but HDR is sub-optimal. (Might be his setup/early build of the unit)

Would not expect much until the end of next year even if something is announced at CES 2021. Unless someone knows different?


Dual Sim2 is 1080p and not looking at that unit due to the price.

Lumagen is available today but the Dual Sim2 design includes a lot more stuff to get that picture result (custom lenses, etc). Hoping that I could tune 2 lower cost units and get some of the benefits from a similar design.

The 5000ES would be fantastic if you added a lumagen for dynamic tone mapping or used madVR for tone mapping. Same for RS4500.

tcramer 02-06-2020 06:03 PM

Like markmon1 said, if you check with some dealers you could probably get a Sony 5000 for around that price range. There was recently a firmware update that helped quite a bit and if you're willing, a Lumagen with the DTM will take HDR to an excellent level.

I have the Sony 5000 on a 16:9 156" wide (179" diagonal) screen and can have fairly bright HDR with the laser at 75. Before the recent DTM and 5000 firmware updates, I had to run it at 95. So, you still got headroom for a larger screen.

LeeK0Resolution 02-06-2020 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markmon1 (Post 59210468)
The 5000ES would be fantastic if you added a lumagen for dynamic tone mapping or used madVR for tone mapping. Same for RS4500.

He does use madVR but only for some content and i would be looking at a luhagen or madVR Envy. With the RS4500 i think i would need to look at a smaller screen as the brightness will be below once calibrated.

LeeK0Resolution 02-06-2020 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcramer (Post 59210554)
Like markmon1 said, if you check with some dealers you could probably get a Sony 5000 for around that price range. There was recently a firmware update that helped quite a bit and if you're willing, a Lumagen with the DTM will take HDR to an excellent level.

I have the Sony 5000 on a 16:9 156" wide (179" diagonal) screen and can have fairly bright HDR with the laser at 75. Before the recent DTM and 5000 firmware updates, I had to run it at 95. So, you still got headroom for a larger screen.

Thank you for the information. What lumens is your projector when running the laser at 75 and calibrated?

LeeK0Resolution 02-06-2020 10:15 PM

I am currently thinking of dropping the "4 low cost projectors with edge blending" off the list. Lots of possible issue with edge blending, etc. Thoughts about the rest?

Art Sonneborn 02-10-2020 12:38 PM

I will very likely be moving to a Christie Eclipse in the next few months. I have stacked 5000es projectors on a 192" wide screen and with the Lumagen DTM I get a very nice HDR picture however that is with two 5000s. Getting true HDR gets dicey to say the least as one reduces lumens.

To consider 2500 lumens on that size screen is unfortunately not going to net you much in the HDR realm in fact I know when I had one 5000 on my screen I preferred SDR ever time.

Art

uaouao 02-11-2020 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeK0Resolution (Post 59206186)
Hi all,

I am currently looking at a 185” 16:9 microperf screen but have only got a projector budget of $35k. I currently have a bunch of crazy ideas and would like your help to rule them out quickly. Before I start to go down the many rabbit holes. :)

• Reduce screen size to around 156” and use a single projector (Sony VPL-VW995ES, RRP $35,000 – 2200 Lumens)
• Normal dual projector stack (2x JVC DLA-RS3000, RRP $17,999 – 2200 Lumens per unit)
• Dual stack projectors split by brightness (little bit like the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS method. 2x JVC DLA-RS3000, RRP $17,999 – 2200 Lumens per unit)
• 4 low cost projectors with edge blending (4x JVC DLA-RS2000 with Nvidia Quadro, RRP $8,999 – 1900 Lumens per unit)
• Hold off for a while and go with something like the Sony SRX-R510P

Thank you in advance for your feedback, especially for any blunt responses.

Hi,
what about a sim2 NERO4S ? is 6000 lumen 4K HDR pj

LeeK0Resolution 02-11-2020 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 59226622)
I will very likely be moving to a Christie Eclipse in the next few months. I have stacked 5000es projectors on a 192" wide screen and with the Lumagen DTM I get a very nice HDR picture however that is with two 5000s. Getting true HDR gets dicey to say the least as one reduces lumens.

To consider 2500 lumens on that size screen is unfortunately not going to net you much in the HDR realm in fact I know when I had one 5000 on my screen I preferred SDR ever time.

Art

What is the minimum foot lamberts that you would recommend for HDR? I was thinking around 31 FL minimum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uaouao (Post 59229672)
Hi,
what about a sim2 NERO4S ? is 6000 lumen 4K HDR pj

Rainbow affect?

uaouao 02-12-2020 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeK0Resolution (Post 59232286)
What is the minimum foot lamberts that you would recommend for HDR? I was thinking around 31 FL minimum.



Rainbow affect?

Depend on how much you are sensitive to the rainbow, I personally don't have this problem so i cannot say it.
I saw the Nero4 S DUO demonstration and I was astonished by the quality of the image, best HDR image i've ever seen.

noob00224 02-12-2020 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeK0Resolution (Post 59232286)
What is the minimum foot lamberts that you would recommend for HDR? I was thinking around 31 FL minimum.

It depends on the tone mapper used. For the JVC NX series it's ~21fL.

Madvr could be around that as well, or lower. On my system it works fine with 16fL, could maybe work with ~12-10fL minimum.

Art Sonneborn 02-12-2020 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noob00224 (Post 59233708)
It depends on the tone mapper used. For the JVC NX series it's ~21fL.

Madvr could be around that as well, or lower. On my system it works fine with 16fL, could maybe work with ~12-10fL minimum.

No matter how competent the DTM one can't overcome deficiency in lumens and or contrast. I think that there is less a minimum than there is a continuum. To say that one can get great projected HDR from 16fL is a joke IMO.

Art

noob00224 02-12-2020 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 59235708)
No matter how competent the DTM one can't overcome deficiency in lumens and or contrast. I think that there is less a minimum than there is a continuum. To say that one can get great projected HDR from 16fL is a joke IMO.

Art

Have you tried the latest madvr DTM? While it's a debatable subject, I get very nice results with 16fL.

Art Sonneborn 02-12-2020 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noob00224 (Post 59235840)
Have you tried the latest madvr DTM? While it's a debatable subject, I get very nice results with 16fL.

Nope, just the last Lumagen Pro DTM.

Art

noob00224 02-12-2020 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 59235966)
Nope, just the last Lumagen Pro DTM.

Art

Not sure about the Envy, but the htpc madvr version allows for the HDR (specific) effect to be adjusted to each person's individual tastes. It's not a brightness slider. I don't think there is anything else that can do that, can't really be compared to other tone mapping solutions. I've even seen one user with 35 nits use the software.

JVC's NX's DTM vs. madvr:
http://cine4home.de/dynamisches-hdr-...lich-klarheit/

Art Sonneborn 02-12-2020 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noob00224 (Post 59236578)
Not sure about the Envy, but the htpc madvr version allows for the HDR (specific) effect to be adjusted to each person's individual tastes. It's not a brightness slider. I don't think there is anything else that can do that, can't really be compared to other tone mapping solutions. I've even seen one user with 35 nits use the software.

JVC's NX's DTM vs. madvr:
http://cine4home.de/dynamisches-hdr-...lich-klarheit/


The Lumagen does as well. It allows it to be somewhat automatic based on the entered screen reflected nit value and the to taste if you want.

Art

LeeK0Resolution 02-12-2020 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uaouao (Post 59233672)
Depend on how much you are sensitive to the rainbow, I personally don't have this problem so i cannot say it.
I saw the Nero4 S DUO demonstration and I was astonished by the quality of the image, best HDR image i've ever seen.

I do not see the rainbow affect myself (excluding some old projectors) but am worried that guests would be impacted. Do not want to spend a decent amount of money on the full theater setup and for it not to look great.
What other projectors are you comparing it to for HDR? Sony 5000es is my baseline for HDR content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by noob00224 (Post 59235840)
Have you tried the latest madvr DTM? While it's a debatable subject, I get very nice results with 16fL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 59235966)
Nope, just the last Lumagen Pro DTM.

Art


Both do a good job at improving the HDR experience, but you still need lumens and contrast to get the best outcome. I have used both madVR and Lumagen before, madVR was slightly ahead but this was a while ago. (New firmware, etc could have changed this greatly.)

After some investigation I have decided to aim for a single projector and dual projectors as the backup plan. I might need to look at coding some alignment scripts with a few sensors, if I do go with dual projectors.

Should I be considering any other projectors? (e.g. Barco, Dukane, Christie, sim2)

noob00224 02-12-2020 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeK0Resolution (Post 59237648)
Both do a good job at improving the HDR experience, but you still need lumens and contrast to get the best outcome. I have used both madVR and Lumagen before, madVR was slightly ahead but this was a while ago. (New firmware, etc could have changed this greatly.)

When was a while ago?
madvr (the beta) has had great improvements recently with the introduction of HSTM. Latest beta:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post59127786

uaouao 02-13-2020 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeK0Resolution (Post 59237648)
I do not see the rainbow affect myself (excluding some old projectors) but am worried that guests would be impacted. Do not want to spend a decent amount of money on the full theater setup and for it not to look great.
What other projectors are you comparing it to for HDR? Sony 5000es is my baseline for HDR content.

Understand your point! I think the only way to understand the quality is to see the performance with your eyes. If you have the chance to find a demo of Nero4 S I would defenetely recomand you to check it. In terms of HDR image is the best choice :brighter and sharper then competitor and of course with the great advantage of the reliability of the DLP technology (no contrast and colors deterioration)
I also know that Sim2 has a very good trade in policy in this period.

donaldk 02-13-2020 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn (Post 59235708)
No matter how competent the DTM one can't overcome deficiency in lumens and or contrast. I think that there is less a minimum than there is a continuum. To say that one can get great projected HDR from 16fL is a joke IMO.

Art

I agree, there simply was a nice sparkle and pop to that 6000 nits LED at ISE. Eventhough the competitor around the corner said it was not running at 6000 nits. He was demoing his 4000nits max. LED module at only 10-15%, so no way to judge its bright performance. Since it was showing letters and or numbers there really wasn't a way to judge video performance.

Lee if you are considering barco, have a look at the recent upgrade of a DP-1500 to the New Serie 4 SP15K by Cineramax over at the DCI-Forum.com, including discussion EDR and HDR performance.

DunMunro 02-13-2020 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeK0Resolution (Post 59206186)
Hi all,

I am currently looking at a 185” 16:9 microperf screen but have only got a projector budget of $35k. I currently have a bunch of crazy ideas and would like your help to rule them out quickly. Before I start to go down the many rabbit holes. :)

• Reduce screen size to around 156” and use a single projector (Sony VPL-VW995ES, RRP $35,000 – 2200 Lumens)
• Normal dual projector stack (2x JVC DLA-RS3000, RRP $17,999 – 2200 Lumens per unit)
• Dual stack projectors split by brightness (little bit like the SIM2 HDR DUO PLUS method. 2x JVC DLA-RS3000, RRP $17,999 – 2200 Lumens per unit)
• 4 low cost projectors with edge blending (4x JVC DLA-RS2000 with Nvidia Quadro, RRP $8,999 – 1900 Lumens per unit)
• Hold off for a while and go with something like the Sony SRX-R510P

Thank you in advance for your feedback, especially for any blunt responses.

Have you considered a trial install of something like the Optoma ZK507 ( nominal 5000 lumen 4K HDR) or the ZU506T/ZH606 (nominal 5000-6000 lumen 1080p HDR)?

https://www.projectorcentral.com/Opt...tor-Review.htm

https://www.projectorcentral.com/Opt...tor-Review.htm

as these should give 2500-3000 lumens in HDR mode or 25+ FL.

Optoma indicates these projectors support projector stacking:

https://www.optoma.com/us/product-ca...tion-stacking/

LeeK0Resolution 02-13-2020 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DunMunro (Post 59241840)
Have you considered a trial install of something like the Optoma ZK507 ( nominal 5000 lumen 4K HDR) or the ZU506T/ZH606 (nominal 5000-6000 lumen 1080p HDR)?

https://www.projectorcentral.com/Opt...tor-Review.htm

https://www.projectorcentral.com/Opt...tor-Review.htm

as these should give 2500-3000 lumens in HDR mode or 25+ FL.

Optoma indicates these projectors support projector stacking:

https://www.optoma.com/us/product-ca...tion-stacking/

Based on a quick look, it uses a single DLP (rainbow affect) and contrast ratio.

Quote:

Originally Posted by noob00224 (Post 59238534)
When was a while ago?
madvr (the beta) has had great improvements recently with the introduction of HSTM. Latest beta:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post59127786

About a year ago ( if i remember right), before HSTM. Also, up scaling was a lot better on madvr but most of my content will be 4k.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uaouao (Post 59238618)
Understand your point! I think the only way to understand the quality is to see the performance with your eyes. If you have the chance to find a demo of Nero4 S I would defenetely recomand you to check it. In terms of HDR image is the best choice :brighter and sharper then competitor and of course with the great advantage of the reliability of the DLP technology (no contrast and colors deterioration)
I also know that Sim2 has a very good trade in policy in this period.

thanks but i think the rainbow affect rules it out. I will try to find a demo that i can look at but no many reviews on this product.

Quote:

Originally Posted by donaldk (Post 59240114)
I agree, there simply was a nice sparkle and pop to that 6000 nits LED at ISE. Eventhough the competitor around the corner said it was not running at 6000 nits. He was demoing his 4000nits max. LED module at only 10-15%, so no way to judge its bright performance. Since it was showing letters and or numbers there really wasn't a way to judge video performance.

Lee if you are considering barco, have a look at the recent upgrade of a DP-1500 to the New Serie 4 SP15K by Cineramax over at the DCI-Forum.com, including discussion EDR and HDR performance.

Thanks for the info. DCI Forum and Cineramax posts are great but they normally talk about products way out of my price range. Unless you are aware of anything within my budget?

Also, they normally have no comparison/review to 5000es, etc.

donaldk 02-13-2020 10:21 PM

@LeeK0Resolution I was going by the listprice Nigel posted a while ago of 'below 50K', it turns out it lists and streets higher and also saw a price increase upon launch from the pre-launch projected price. So indeed too large a difference to your posted budget. I was suprised to hear such a relatively low price,but Nigel was pretty adamant in his reply to my post a few months ago.

You are right in that dlp and lcos seem to be two different market segments/camps.

uaouao 02-14-2020 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeK0Resolution (Post 59242494)
Based on a quick look, it uses a single DLP (rainbow affect) and contrast ratio.



About a year ago ( if i remember right), before HSTM. Also, up scaling was a lot better on madvr but most of my content will be 4k.



thanks but i think the rainbow affect rules it out. I will try to find a demo that i can look at but no many reviews on this product.


I've found this one on their website : http://www.sim2.com/home/files/downl...im2_nero4s.pdf


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