Sony Crystal LED Owners Thread 2020 (Solfar) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 33 Old 02-24-2020, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony Crystal LED Owners Thread 2020 (Solfar)

I'm creating this thread in case anyone else want's to build a Crystal LED home-theater. There are many lessons learned and I'm happy to share.

This home-theater is centered around a 2nd generation Sony Crystal LED display. This has been a journey that has been almost three years in the making. The Sony wall has a 11Wx5H configuration giving a 200" diagonal with 2.0 aspect ratio (Univisium). The sound system is primarily made of Quested Monitors with additional ME-Geithain cardioid lateral subwoofers.

In total, there are 55 speakers, sub-woofers, and tactile actuators in the room. Amplification is provided by 26 MC² amps over a Dante audio network. Power to the system is supplied by three All-in-One Torus sub-panels providing 300A of clean power. Sound field is generated by a Trinnov Altitude 48.

I'll post pictures of the current state shortly. In the meantime, here's a photo of the inspiration for this home-theater.



If you have questions, don't hesitate to ask!

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post #2 of 33 Old 02-25-2020, 06:49 AM
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Welcome. Peter used to be able to post here, so there should be some info from the early design and build stages, on this Room with a View project. Of course more on the Cineramax twitter and the dci-forum thread. For those who missed out on this three year journey,sofar and would like to catch up, to ask questions here.
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post #3 of 33 Old 02-25-2020, 01:22 PM
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Wow. Pix please

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post #4 of 33 Old 02-25-2020, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by anthonymoody View Post
Wow. Pix please
I concur!

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post #5 of 33 Old 02-26-2020, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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As @donaldk has pointed out, you will have seen some of the work-in-progress already if you know where to look.

The Quested speakers are a sight to behold. These things are massive! Unfortunately, most of them are still in their boxes.

These are the front stage speakers. Starting from the top left, going clockwise we have the bottom center channel, top center channel with custom angle (this model is also used for the rear center channel), left/right mid to low-frequency speakers, left/right bottom speaker, left/right top speaker, left/right full-range speaker. It's hard to appreciate the size of these things without a reference point, but the woofers on all of these are 10" in diameter.


The next set are for the rest of the room, starting with the 18" subwoofers (see footnote 1 below), the top wide/surround 1/surround 2/rear speaker, middle wide/surround 1/surround 2/rear speaker, and the top Atmos speakers. The wide/surrounds/rear are organized as columns around the primary listening position. Missing from the pictures are the ME Geithain cardioid subs. The column speakers have 8" woofers and the Atmos speakers are 12" in size. IIRC, Peter wanted me to feel a Hippo dropping on my head!



Footnotes:
1) These are being replaced b/c this design ended up being too large for the Sony setup. DM me if you're interested.
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post #6 of 33 Old 02-26-2020, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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A huge challenge was to get all this equipment installed into a condominium. The following are renderings, which are mostly accurate except some elements have been revised during construction. However, it gives you a sense how tight the setup is. This project has required some amazing engineering talent, including Sony's as they have some very strict requirements to ensure proper alignment of the C-LED display wall.

In this first rendering, you can see the 4 of the 8 Atmos speakers that all point directly at the primary listening position, as well as the two wide columns with the ME Geithain cardioid subs at the bottom. Note that the occlusion of the top center channel is an artifact, because the size of the canopy was not updated for the rendering.


This rendering gives you an idea how tight the space is from wall to wall to fit the two massive front speaker columns (approx 12' tall) and the 200" diagonal screen. For reference, the door is 8' tall.


This rendering is missing the window mullions, which splits up the view a bit, but you should still get the idea that one of the challenges has been the room's acoustic treatment when one side is floor to ceiling windows. Heat is also a concern on which we spent a lot of time. On paper the C-LED is a beast of a heat generator, but in practice I've experience it running as hot as it possibly could. For one, I will never run this thing at full brightness. It just way too bright!
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post #7 of 33 Old 02-26-2020, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Details that will not come across in the above renderings are the many stylistic elements that permeate the room. Solfar takes inspiration from the famous sculpture in Reykjavik, Iceland, which depicts a Viking longship (see first post). I'll post more details as the room comes together. This has been a long journey and it feels great to finally have a line of sight on its destination!

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post #8 of 33 Old 02-26-2020, 07:51 PM
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The 8K Samsung at ISE got really really hot. At the 1 Meter ribbon it felt like a dry sauna;-). Couldn't get that close to the C-LED.
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post #9 of 33 Old 02-26-2020, 08:07 PM
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Absolutely amazing dude! Seen Peter posting about this too on Twitter. Big fan of Quested.

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Subscribed, this is going to be an epic room in size, picture and sound. This will be fun to fallow.

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post #11 of 33 Old 02-27-2020, 09:59 AM
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So one thing that I find very interesting is the decision to use a center channel above AND below the screen. Most of what I've read seems to state that multiple centers, playing the same source material will have all kinds of combing problems. Are you doing something in signal processing to deal with this? Or is the distance between the two units great enough that it wont be a problem? Some other solve? I'd really like to understand how you're making this approach work. As I'm sure others might have similar curiosity! :-)
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post #12 of 33 Old 02-27-2020, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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So one thing that I find very interesting is the decision to use a center channel above AND below the screen. Most of what I've read seems to state that multiple centers, playing the same source material will have all kinds of combing problems. Are you doing something in signal processing to deal with this? Or is the distance between the two units great enough that it wont be a problem? Some other solve? I'd really like to understand how you're making this approach work. As I'm sure others might have similar curiosity! :-)
I have the same concern and I don't have an answer for you yet. It might come down to the lesser of two evils. I can't imagine just single center channel working and I'm not a fan of a phantom center. The hope is that we can make the Trinnov Altitude do the appropriate processing to balance everything out.

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post #13 of 33 Old 02-27-2020, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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The 8K Samsung at ISE got really really hot. At the 1 Meter ribbon it felt like a dry sauna;-). Couldn't get that close to the C-LED.
The Samsung The Wall emits all the heat to the front since it's designed to go flush against the wall. The Sony C-LED is a more traditional video wall with most of the heat being emitted to the back where we have a small HVAC system to keeps things running cool.
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post #14 of 33 Old 02-27-2020, 12:30 PM
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So one thing that I find very interesting is the decision to use a center channel above AND below the screen. Most of what I've read seems to state that multiple centers, playing the same source material will have all kinds of combing problems. Are you doing something in signal processing to deal with this? Or is the distance between the two units great enough that it wont be a problem? Some other solve? I'd really like to understand how you're making this approach work. As I'm sure others might have similar curiosity! :-)

In a previous life I did some installations using centers channels above and below the screen. And that technology (SigTech and 20 years ago) was a gazillion miles behind what the Trinnov can do now and still created a darn good facsimile of the real thing - as long as you were sitting in the sweet spot. I would bet that while not as good as a center behind the screen, it may work out quite well.
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post #15 of 33 Old 03-03-2020, 10:19 AM
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Good lord I feel feint.

Can't wait to see this unfold. Re: the installation in a condo...did you build a room within a room or you just going to invite your neighbors over every time you turn the volume past 3?
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post #16 of 33 Old 03-04-2020, 04:04 AM
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Good lord I feel feint.

Can't wait to see this unfold. Re: the installation in a condo...did you build a room within a room or you just going to invite your neighbors over every time you turn the volume past 3?
From an earlier discussion I remember it is insulated to SD65, so damping of 65dB. But nowhere does it show it. So nicely done, like everything Peter is involved with.
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post #17 of 33 Old 03-04-2020, 03:36 PM
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Your Quested system is basically what I’m striving for but with DIY Low/Mid modules for surrounds but pretty much the same everywhere else. I’m using the same LCRs basically with my LT20s and LT10 wides. Walter was able to make the LT20s sound pretty much better than any room I’ve ever heard and the room is literally bare right now, not even absorption panels in place since am switching to diffusion in most locations.

If you are able to get voice tracking anywhere near what the Altitude32 provides with my 13’ wide screen you will be pleased. I’m in awe every time I watch something because of how the picture seems to actually be speaking directly from their mouths. No AVR has come remotely close to the way voice tracking is done with the Altitude32 in my experience.

And yes the Quested cabinets are beasts!

Every time Peter posts on Instagram I immediately check out the progress. I’ve been hooked since the first renderings lol. I don’t know of another system remotely similar to ours on forums. People used to love how the LT8s and 24s performed yet they aren’t even close to what the Z16, LT20, etc... output as far as overall sound. It’s totally different in a big sound kind of way yet crystal clear with dynamics out of this world! My LT20s are custom with upsized amps, custom amps, and processing configured by Walter but I’m sure your custom setup will be very very similar. You will not be disappointed for sure!


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From an earlier discussion I remember it is insulated to SD65, so damping of 65dB. But nowhere does it show it. So nicely done, like everything Peter is involved with.


I wish I could just let Peter have free reign on a complete project from room design all the way to an Ultra Topmersive Hippo dropping on my head speaker setup. But, being that we are children poor I am having to piece my room together a little at a time in stages. It took me two and a half years to acquire the LT20s, 2 MC2 950s, 1 MC2 2800-4, 3 ch Custom Hypex, 2 LT10s, and the 4 passive Z8s. I am completely grateful to be able to even piece those together so far so not complaining by any means. It would just be much easier to say, “Hey Peter, Do your thing man!”


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post #19 of 33 Old 03-04-2020, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Good lord I feel feint.

Can't wait to see this unfold. Re: the installation in a condo...did you build a room within a room or you just going to invite your neighbors over every time you turn the volume past 3?
There is quite a bit of isolation going on, but, obviously, there are limits. The plan is to measure the sound penetration for my neighbors above and below to determine when it gets too loud in their condos. Luckily, the units immediately above and below are rarely occupied. Let's hope it stays that way!
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post #20 of 33 Old 03-04-2020, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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A bit of background on how I chose the C-LED system, because it wasn't even in consideration until CEDIA 2019. Up until that point, the front-runner was Samsung The Wall Lux in a 5x5 configuration (effectively a 5K system). The Wall is an amazing system using 25 panels and only a few inches thick. It also comes with a much more sophisticated send-box/controller, which provides a variety of presentation options. It's also a lot more power efficient maxing out at "only" 5,100W. In comparison, the C-LED is a 3.5K system using 55 modules and consuming up to 11,000W. The send-box is also quite simple with no fancy features, except one! (more on this below)

Frankly, on paper, there really doesn't seem to be much of a competition. The Samsung is simpler to install, has higher resolution, uses less power, and has more gimmicks. Seems like a slam dunk, no? While in Denver, I wasn't even really interested going by the Sony booth. For me, the mission was: how soon can I get The Wall Lux?

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post #21 of 33 Old 03-04-2020, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, specs aren't everything. Peter nudged me to go see the Sony since it was just a few steps away. It didn't take much, because The Wall was really poorly configured for CEDIA 2019 as well. The video was being played back from a USB device, which introduce compression artifacts. At first I attributed them to the display, but further testing ruled that out. However, I was able to confirm that The Wall uses dithering to render low intensity colors. A rather distracting implementation choice. The Wall Lux also came with a mat screen, which gave it a flat presentation. Lastly, the color saturation was set to torch mode and I seem to remember they also had frame interpolation enabled. In short, it was not optimized for cinephiles. So, I went over to check out the Sony C-LED.

They had setup a rather huge wall using the 2nd generation C-LED panels, which are not as glossy as their first generation. The first thing that struck me was how natural the color saturation was on movie scenes, but incredibly punchy on animation. I simply did not want to leave their booth. I was totally mesmerized by the picture! It was unlike anything I had ever witnessed.

To confirm my preference, we went back and forth a few more times between the two displays, taking advantage of a lunch break in between to reduce risk of first vs. second impression preference. At that point, the Sony went from not being in consideration to being a worthy challenger to The Wall.

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post #22 of 33 Old 03-04-2020, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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In the following weeks/months, I had the pleasure to meet with the Sony team a few times and check out the C-LED at their Jimmy Stewart cinema in Culver City. This time, I brought my own movies on blu-ray and UHD disc. The demo went incredibly well, but there was still the issue that the C-LED required us to redesign the front stage, replace the sub-woofers, and install this display with an insanely low tolerances for deflection of the support beam.

So, why go through all this trouble if The Wall Lux is a great display as well? Well, Walter put it best when I told him about my experience seeing the C-LED in action. He took one look at me and simply said "You're in love!" I don't think he could have summarized it better.

There are some additional benefits, which ultimately pushed me to go this direction. First, I was able to achieve a 2.0 aspect ratio, which I thought was cool, as well as a bigger diagonal size of 200". But ultimately, the killer feature was 3D. Unlike The Wall, the C-LED supports active 3D. Obviously, not something everyone needs, but I'm a huge fan of the format. Being active 3D, it's not nearly as good as the passive 3D LG OLEDs, but it meant I could keep enjoying my collection of 300+ 3D movies.

For completeness, I need to also mention how accommodating the Samsung team was. They knew their CEDIA setup was not up to par. So they organized a meeting to see an actual installation, which had been properly calibrated. It looked much better, but I just didn't get the same emotional connection to it. YMMV.

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post #23 of 33 Old 03-05-2020, 01:07 AM
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when you finish you will tell us how much the project goes up and how much it consumes light, to know how many banks I have to dock lol super post you will already be telling us

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In the following weeks/months, I had the pleasure to meet with the Sony team a few times and check out the C-LED at their Jimmy Stewart cinema in Culver City. This time, I brought my own movies on blu-ray and UHD disc. The demo went incredibly well, but there was still the issue that the C-LED required us to redesign the front stage, replace the sub-woofers, and install this display with an insanely low tolerances for deflection of the support beam.

So, why go through all this trouble if The Wall Lux is a great display as well? Well, Walter put it best when I told him about my experience seeing the C-LED in action. He took one look at me and simply said "You're in love!" I don't think he could have summarized it better.

There are some additional benefits, which ultimately pushed me to go this direction. First, I was able to achieve a 2.0 aspect ratio, which I thought was cool, as well as a bigger diagonal size of 200". But ultimately, the killer feature was 3D. Unlike The Wall, the C-LED supports active 3D. Obviously, not something everyone needs, but I'm a huge fan of the format. Being active 3D, it's not nearly as good as the passive 3D LG OLEDs, but it meant I could keep enjoying my collection of 300+ 3D movies.

For completeness, I need to also mention how accommodating the Samsung team was. They knew their CEDIA setup was not up to par. So they organized a meeting to see an actual installation, which had been properly calibrated. It looked much better, but I just didn't get the same emotional connection to it. YMMV.
Great choice, IMHO great 3D trumps great UHD. You can re-mux the 3D ISO’s with the Atmos or DTS:X sound tracks. I have over 100 of these, a must for a HT like yours.Glad to see your long journey coming to fruition. I remember our initial discussions when it started at CEDIA.

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post #25 of 33 Old 03-05-2020, 04:22 AM
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I have the same concern and I don't have an answer for you yet. It might come down to the lesser of two evils. I can't imagine just single center channel working and I'm not a fan of a phantom center. The hope is that we can make the Trinnov Altitude do the appropriate processing to balance everything out.
I think you will find DTS:X Pro will handle them nicely for its native content and it will probably become your up-mixer of choice. I’ve been very impressed with it so far, especially the up-mixer on DTS 7.1 and 5.1 content.
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I think you will find DTS:X Pro will handle them nicely for its native content and it will probably become your up-mixer of choice. I’ve been very impressed with it so far, especially the up-mixer on DTS 7.1 and 5.1 content.
Would like to understand how those two centers will be defined across all formats especially Dolby Atmos native source material. DTS:X Pro (at least in the Trinnov) has center height, etc. not sure about Atmos.... SJ
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post #27 of 33 Old 03-05-2020, 07:18 AM
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Would like to understand how those two centers will be defined across all formats especially Dolby Atmos native source material. DTS:X Pro (at least in the Trinnov) has center height, etc. not sure about Atmos.... SJ
DTS:X has Center Height (Ch) and Center Bottom(Cb), DTS:X Pro will render them for native or up-mixed content. Atmos maybe a little more tricky and need some of the Trinnov magic (ie mapping and/or array copy).
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post #28 of 33 Old 03-05-2020, 07:53 AM
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For a more detailed discussion on this. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...l#post51973057
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post #29 of 33 Old 03-05-2020, 08:12 AM
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post #30 of 33 Old 03-05-2020, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjorg View Post
For me, the mission was: how soon can I get The Wall Lux?
Samsung kept postponing The Wall, then the Wall Luxe, fortunately the project kept seeing other delays;-). Sony showed a newer less shiny epoxy surface at ISE 2019, and probably at infocomm 2018. That helped. Plus Sony starting to have the capacity to start selling beyond the carmaker market. Introducing a less unrealistic pricing.

The Samsung demo was at PTurbey's? His system being showcased here as well.
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Last edited by donaldk; 03-05-2020 at 08:54 AM.
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