Insane 2- Mirror rig for Rear Projection - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 55 Old 03-28-2005, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have seen many rear projection mirror rigs before but this one is very creative. It packs a 12 foot wide screen into a 6.5 feet deep closet with minimum pit space, by shooting the beam to the ceiling first, then down back, then out.
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post #2 of 55 Old 03-28-2005, 03:53 PM
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doesn't the light bump into itself? (-:

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post #3 of 55 Old 03-28-2005, 05:03 PM
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The PQ must be compromised in some way. I have to guess though but the guy's body language in the front row doesn't look good from an "I'm sold "sort of perspective. Perhaps the viewing cone is limited since the back row seems a little happier.

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post #4 of 55 Old 03-28-2005, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The guy in the front just paid 12 grand for the rig, the guy in the rear is just visiting.
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post #5 of 55 Old 03-28-2005, 08:01 PM
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what would it matter if the light passed through itself?

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post #6 of 55 Old 03-28-2005, 09:33 PM
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please note smiley after ridiculous comment!

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post #7 of 55 Old 03-28-2005, 11:24 PM
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That looks just like one of my dozens of CAD layouts, except the booth is in my garage so I could put the upper mirror another 2' higher.

I'm struggling to get a 92" wide screen with a booth only 3' deep to minimize the loss to my workshop.

One thing to be careful about is if the lamp is in oriented such that it's OK to tilt the pj in that direction.

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post #8 of 55 Old 03-29-2005, 03:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The new 3 chip dlp's are tiltable. Of course you may have to assist in the ventilation depending on the tight confines.
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post #9 of 55 Old 03-29-2005, 04:15 PM
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Is the ability to tilt a projector based on the design, or is it an inherent limitation of the type of bulb used?

Also, it's generally been stated that using mirrors in a rear projection is a trade off in image quality for space (for a given price). Is the image degradation primarily geometric distortions, or is there more too it (like secondary reflections)? Will it be even more noticeable with 1080p projectors?

Are the rear projection screen types used in a mirrored system different than those used in straight rear projection? Also, (donning flame suit)... can anybody post or link to a short list of rear projection screens suitable for 1920x1080p projectors?

 

 

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post #10 of 55 Old 03-29-2005, 05:10 PM
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1. Projector ventilation design allows it to be tilted. As peter mentions, sometimes it needs help even above that. it really comes down to how air moves over the lamp. is it fresh air, or hot air.

2. Proper mirrors cause no degradation or distortion. That is why they can be as expensive as a Saturn.

3. RP is not a trade-off in Quality. It is a preferred method if you have a room where you want to use it for other than a cave. There can be arguments made that an RP setup has slight trade-offs (Peter will not be making those arguments) but they are slight. However, should you not want to spend as much as a Porsche (and i am talking other than the boxster or Cayenne here) then the differences will be quite big. PROPER RP is expensive.

4. When purchasing first surface mirrors, there are grades of quality. 94%, 95%, etc. really all the trade off is is brightness. But when one is doing a double mirror rig, you would not want to cut corners on the mirror. Their cost is why these setups are done up in CAD first to ensure that you buy no larger a mirror than you need.

5. For HD resolutions, firstly look at diffusion screens. They have no "optical" elements so their resolution is FAR greater than HD. Secondly, Talk to DNP or Stewart, they have MANY solutions in Optical screens. DNP a little more so. THey are definitely more of an RP company

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post #11 of 55 Old 03-29-2005, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by rabident
Is the ability to tilt a projector based on the design, or is it an inherent limitation of the type of bulb used?
Dizzman explined very well.

[quote]Originally posted by rabident
[b]Also, it's generally been stated that using mirrors in a rear projection is a trade off in image quality for space (for a given price). Is the image degradation primarily geometric distortions, or is there more too it (like secondary reflections)? Will it be even more noticeable with 1080p projectors?

Are the rear projection screen types used in a mirrored system different than those used in straight rear projection? Also, (donning flame suit)... can anybody post or link to a short list of rear projection screens suitable for 1920x1080p projectors? [quote]Originally posted by rabident
[b]

It is good not to use very steep bounce angles for better full spectrum reflectivity.

In my opinion diffusion screens are good and Stewart makes the best ones, but to achieve the ultimate in image quality nothing beats a DNP, Alpha, Black Bead, and Giant wide angle. www.dnp.dk They are available thru Draper too.

The new fresnel lenticuar screens have vertical resolution in the ranges of 8k,10,k and 12k. Far more than 1080p.
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post #12 of 55 Old 03-29-2005, 07:17 PM
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I think we have safely found the middle ground

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post #13 of 55 Old 03-29-2005, 11:48 PM
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"94%, 95%, etc. really all the trade off is is brightness."

?? The net brightness difference between two 94% and two 96% mirrors is 3.8%. Even the 12% loss from no mirror to two 94% mirrors i subjectively small.

I believe there's more to lamp orientation issue than heat dissipation.

The lamp is filled with gas and gravity will create an internal pressure gradient, which I believe can cause the position of the fireball to change with orientation.

This could have two effects. If the lamp axis (defined by a line through the electrodes) is vertical instead of horizontal, the fireball might move up (my guess) or down, burning away that electrode faster.

You should be able to rotate the pj around the lamp axis any amount w/o a problem here.

Another possible effect is that the fireball moving within the lamp will change the reflection geometry, possibly effecting brightness and/or CR.

The early JVC DILA's (not sure about later ones) had a setting for ceiling mount operation, I believe to deal with this last issue.

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post #14 of 55 Old 12-24-2005, 05:11 PM
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I have been thinking about this, and will be designing a new home soon. Wanting to design the very best HT, I wanted to give consideration to a rear projection set up, and I had an idea that might reduce the cost, complexity, and allow it to easily be upgraded with any projector.

My thought is that all that would be needed to install any projector from a short throw to long throw (2.0) would be a room behind, say a 10 foot wide screen that is only 10 feet wide by 20 feet long. 200 square feet built into the design, that would allow a projector to be mounted at any position within this space depending on throw. It could be painted completely black, and much of the space could be used for equipment for the theater. Finally it could have a dedicated AC/Ventilation system.

It seems to me that sacrificing 200sf (which much could be used for equipment) in order to have the flexibility, and simplicity of not using mirrors would be worth it.

Am I missing something here?? And (someone other than Peter) what are the downsides of RP vs FP. In otherwards, if you can do it, would there be any reason to go with FP instead?

Being used to using screens with gain IE Silverstar, could I get as much brightness from a RP set up?

Are there any image artifacts, from using RP, similar to what you would get with some screen materials eg. Hotspotting?

Perhaps I should have started a new thread, but I thought I would see if I could get some answers here first.

Thanks,

Phil
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post #15 of 55 Old 12-25-2005, 09:01 AM
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Why would someone spend $12K and lose PQ just to avoid using a FP? That makes no sense. Unless it's for the "living room TV on steroids". That's almost the price of an Infocus 777!

Real theater doesn't require smoke *or* mirrors!

John
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post #16 of 55 Old 12-25-2005, 12:59 PM
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"Why would someone spend $12K and lose PQ just to avoid using a FP?"

First, you don't lose quality with a good screen.

RP is far superior (again, with a high quality screen) to FP in maintaining CR.

Even the dnp Supernova black FP screen has only 1/3 the CR in 100 lux room light as their Alpha RP screen, for example.

FP extracts a pj's full CR, both on/off and ANSI, *only* in a room with zero ambient light and black surfaces, and even then someone wearing a white shirt will lower ANSI CR significantly.

Also, no pj noise and no shadows cast on the screen.

It's costly in money and space, but it's by far the more livable than FP.

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post #17 of 55 Old 12-25-2005, 01:30 PM
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Do any of you guys ever put in any RP systems where they literally just set aside a 12'ish foot deep area behind and do a straight to screen, dead center alignment type of setup?

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post #18 of 55 Old 12-25-2005, 01:36 PM
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I think most people get their ideas about RP from inexpensive RP sets, which have high gain screens and hot spot badly sometimes and color shift. I had a Toshiba 65" RP set at one time, and eventually replaced the stock screen with a good quality diffusion screen and it looked infinitely better. Everyone who saw it was very impressed.

But I tricked that system out quite well, masking off the mirror and the lenses and lined the whole thing with black velvet and painted any exposed screw or staple surfaces black and drapped the lens assembly with a black velvet shroud, so that it was a disorienting space to stick your head in with the mirror in there. It had more pop and contrast than my current FP system, though of course the size and resolution capability was lower and there was more edge distortion.

But anyway, even with these less expensive systems, you can make good use of the advantages of RP to get a semi-direct view level of contrast and quite good black level. Expand that up to a room based RP and you can get those advantages without the edge distortion of the super-short throw distance.

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post #19 of 55 Old 12-26-2005, 02:59 PM
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Dean,

I am building a home theater (more like a living room really) with a rear straight shoot from a guest bedroom onto hopefully a DNP NWA screen. I say hopefully because it depends on what price DNP can give me for an appox 250cm 2.35:1 screen. I have looked at the gain charts of the various screens and the NWA is better than for instance the GWA. The Beta looks even better, sacrificing some brightness for uniformity, but I think it is much more expensive. I've seen the NWA and the horizontal brightness is very even - the vertical however is so so.

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post #20 of 55 Old 12-28-2005, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free

Am I missing something here?? And (someone other than Peter) what are the downsides of RP vs FP. In otherwards, if you can do it, would there be any reason to go with FP instead?

Being used to using screens with gain IE Silverstar, could I get as much brightness from a RP set up?

Are there any image artifacts, from using RP, similar to what you would get with some screen materials eg. Hotspotting?
Hi Phil,

Does this mean that I cannot respond to the post? Sitting anxiously on the sidelines? :)

Seems to me that you should go for maximum screen width Giant Wide Angle or STUDIO Giant Wide Angle (this one adds a non glare light sucking filter to the facia); that is about 13.75 feet wide if I remember correctly.

These GWA are optimised for TD's of 1.2 to 1.5. With vertical line resolutions exceeding 10k, you could use a sony cinema srx and still fully resolve the 8k lines.

Although expensive I would have the screen cut down to 2.35. One of the digital cinema projectors I played with had an anamorphic adapter and zoom focus memory for automatic aspect ratio change.

Forget the brightness of the silver star, the optical rear screen is the way to go, the ANSI contrast is so high that sometimes black elements in a scene appear as missing pieces of the screen that were sucked back into a black hole.

As you know I have done a dozen or so of these over the course of 15 years, and have pondered every single aspect of it. The type of paint (space paint), the automatic masking system that will work on a screen tilt, screen tilt is cool, loudspeaker placement for true audiophile imaging, etc. etc. Feel Free to PM' me.
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post #21 of 55 Old 12-28-2005, 08:02 AM
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Thanks Peter. No, I just meant that you were not going to give me any negatives for RP. :)

I will look into your suggestions. The house is still just in the conceptual stages, so I am more into the space planning, rather than the end materials, that will certainly change by the time the project is finished.

Phil
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post #22 of 55 Old 12-28-2005, 02:01 PM
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Is there enough interest in rear projection to make a sticky thread somewhere? As it is now the threads are scattered everywhere - for instance the last post I replied to was in the CRT forum.

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post #23 of 55 Old 12-28-2005, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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As far as I am concerned it should be a sticky in this forum since a decent size screen from DNP(with screen research masking) will be in the 25-35k range.
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post #24 of 55 Old 12-28-2005, 03:48 PM
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I can only assume a "decent size" for you is the larger GWAs. A 100" 4:3 NWA is just over 5k here excl tax. Add another k and you get a nice frame. Also remember that not everyone need a trick mirror setup.

The price you mention will put many people off from even thinking of RP.

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post #25 of 55 Old 12-28-2005, 03:51 PM
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it comes down to a choice
if you want a cave, FP will give you the best results. DOwnside being that you have to have the room as dark as possible. No lights, dark walls, etc.

If you want a room that is indeed more of a living room, then RP can give you results that are mind blowing. Since the screen is disconnected from the traditional cave experience, there is a much greater feeling of a floating image and increased sense of realism. And you can have the lights on, and do other things at the same time. Downside is that you need a dedicated space. Now, with a 2 mirror rig, you can get that space pretty small, but it is needed. Also, the cost is high.

Personally, i want a cave. But i would also love to have a projector based 100" screen that could be updated over time, so i might only need to lose a closet.

Either way, both have pros and cons. In a perfect home, you might use both of them.

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post #26 of 55 Old 12-28-2005, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX
As far as I am concerned it should be a sticky in this forum since a decent size screen from DNP(with screen research masking) will be in the 25-35k range.
Peter, would the masking be on the inside surface or the outside of the RP screen? Would this be more of a requirement for RP than FP?

I ask, because, with my latest FP (C3X) the black bars are so dark that masking is basically un-necessary. Is this a downside to RP?

Phil
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post #27 of 55 Old 12-28-2005, 11:09 PM
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Dizz,

I need a 2-mirror rig for my setup.

Have you had any experience with draw lines on the mirrors causing wide (inch or so) darkish vertical bands?

This was reported by Iamjcl (Chris), who had a G1000 with a Stewart flexible screen.

All that said, I may be bailing out of RP after years of researching, acquiring mirrors, rolls of black velvet, wide angle converter lenses, and Peter's dnp Alpha screen.

It turns out new seismic codes make construction a lot more complicated than I had anticipated (need to cut a big hole in a primary shear wall).

Do you know anyone in our area who might be interested? Bargain priced.

Thanks

Noah
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post #28 of 55 Old 12-29-2005, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free
Peter, would the masking be on the inside surface or the outside of the RP screen? Would this be more of a requirement for RP than FP?

I ask, because, with my latest FP (C3X) the black bars are so dark that masking is basically un-necessary. Is this a downside to RP?
Phil: That will depend on the projector ( on off contrast ratio, stray light) and the displays of other equipment in the rear projection room.

As you mentioned the ansi contrast on these dlp 3 chippers is so insane that masking is rarely required, what I described as black "scene elements" appearing as portions of the screen that broke off, into a black hole. Like missing jigsaw puzzle pieces. A very interesting effect.

Now that being said, you mentioned that you want to design the ultimate home theater. To me that means ULTIMATE in performance, fit and finish. External masking the constant height 13.75 gwa that is tilted 12 degrees , is the ultimate challenge, this has been under discussion between DNP and SR.

As you are doing the space design I invite you to depart from the traditional shoebox room design and consider going vertical in the seating array (ala stadium seating), and having frontal sufficient height to enhance the experience. :)

If one is indeed trying to create the ultimate Rearpro Home Theater, chances are that the projector is going to be a big gun xenon 3 chipper, these Cinema DLP cousins have large fans and often have odd stray light patterns. It may be neccessary to create a hush box to contain unwanted sound and light even though inside a projection room. The rear screen can act as a sound transmitter when the PJ has loud fans.

Another important design consideration in a reapro is lighting, seat lighting, cove lighting and a screen perimeter d7000k high density led strip to help floaqt the image even further.
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post #29 of 55 Old 12-29-2005, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Noah: Oh no! After all we went through. Bummer.
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post #30 of 55 Old 12-29-2005, 08:11 AM
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Thanks Peter, those are good points to consider. I had thought about a more vertical layout of the theater, although I still want to do recliners and not stadium seats. I hadn't realized that the RP screen would transmit sound, so I would need to consider the hushbox idea. I was also thinking that the equipment would be oriented so the rear and cables etc would be in the projection space, so displays would not affect CR.

I have never been a fan of the limitations of constant height set ups, requiring additional lenses, that might degrade the image, as well as the limitations on projectors, placement, and viewing material. I watch a lot of different things, not just movies, and unless everything is 2.35:1 in 5 years, I don't know if it would be practical for me.

The other thing I need to decide, is if I want to get away from the experience of going into a dedicated dark room to watch movies. I rather enjoy that now, and if I want a background movie, or tv in an entertainment space, such as a family room or game room, a plasma works great for that application. When I want to watch a movie, that is all I want to do, so I don't mind going into a cave. What I want to know, is if a RP application has significant advantages in a dedicated cave space as well.

Phil
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