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post #37111 of 40055 Old 04-07-2017, 12:58 PM
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@rcohen for music it will be strictly 2-channel. In fact I have ideas brewed for a room that can be optimized for both two channel and multi channel. Install casters on the L&R 215's, have them either tucked behind both edges of the AT screen with a removable black velvet access panel, extra speaker wire slack and a system for precise placement every time pulling the L&R 215's out into the room, optimal 2-channel placement. Or have them same theory on casters just on the outer edge of the screen and same pull out system. Then have some 'music' panels strategically placed over some multi channel absorption. Different Dirac presets used...


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post #37112 of 40055 Old 04-07-2017, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Thanks for the reminder archaea, I do remember that thread now that you bring it up again.

So I guess a perfect sub match would be a new sub by Jeff, the 215 minus the CD but I want nearfield in the end so DIY makes it easy to angle the driver in seatback, build slim cabinet, etc. I suppose I could do ported for the nearfield if that made a true advantage but that makes a bigger cab. But I'm sure long and slim could be done.

I will review that thread. I'm sure I'll find a buyer eventually for the 21's even if just the drivers/amp.

It just seems like if it really was a serious issue guys like Nate would have a bad experience with numerous diff kinds of subwoofer, drivers, designs etc. and like I said, the SI18HT has blended well with JTRs thus far.

We need someone to run a 7 channel full range 215 system to see how that would be. Axpona will be pretty close


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Long and slim and a pair of HST's nearfield. The perfect recipe:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-hst-18-s.html

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post #37113 of 40055 Old 04-07-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
If the subs are in phase at 80 hz, but 180 degrees out of phase at 30hz, there is no amount of extreme tuning or calibration that will make those subs work well together.
Basically correct. No automatic room EQ system can time align below several 100 hz. One can use something like a Meyers Sound Galileo Galaxy and use all pass filters and delay to completely align two different subs.

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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
You can get away with blending ported and sealed fine if you match the correct order HPF.
Besides a frequency measurement, there is also phase and time. Phase and time alignment is just as important. Actually I think it is more important.

Multiple speakers/subs can be any of the following:
  • In time and in phase
  • In time and out of phase
  • In phase and out of time
  • Out of time, out of phase



You can take a measurement at a single place and your frequency response can look good, but the subs and/or mains can be misaligned in time and phase. The reason the frequency response looks good at the single measurement point is because one has no idea how the room is interacting with the subs/speakers to form a reference starting point. Or, the subs and mains can be in alignment at that one measurement spot, but not for any of the other seats. Subs can also be out of phase and still experience some summation. See the Wheel of Phase to see how summation occurs at various degrees of phase.



If one could bike from Death Valley to Mount Whitney, they could show their route based on direction or altitude. However, neither of these views shows that one might stop overnight a couple times. The same thing is true in audio measurements. Frequency response indicates nothing about the time alignment of speakers/subs.

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post #37114 of 40055 Old 04-07-2017, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
...
You can take a measurement at a single place and your frequency response can look good, but the subs and/or mains can be misaligned in time and phase. The reason the frequency response looks good at the single measurement point is because one has no idea how the room is interacting with the subs/speakers to form a reference starting point. Or, the subs and mains can be in alignment at that one measurement spot, but not for any of the other seats. Subs can also be out of phase and still experience some summation. See the Wheel of Phase to see how summation occurs at various degrees of phase.
Hi, nice discussion. *If* all I care is the MLP (which is basically true in my situation) and got a flat response at MLP, then regardless of how that flat frequency response is achieved (whether by deliberate electronic manipulation or incidental room modes), is that good enough?

In other words, the end point/successful criteria is a flat frequency response? TIA.
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post #37115 of 40055 Old 04-07-2017, 05:34 PM
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@desertdome thank you for chiming in, that makes some educational sense and I will continue to mull over that post. As was responded to you I am curious now. Do most people not have bass properly calibrated you think? In layman's terms what is a process one would go about in actually being able to measure their bass to assure it is in fact Time AND Phase aligned WITH a good frequency response AND good Waterfall's/Spectro in time domain? In other words a total complete correct bass response in ALL facets of measurable data...Are their such tutorials on AVS?

Also what kind of features/experience or things are noticeable by ear or feel by being in any combination of out of phase/time, in phase time, one or the other but a good frequency response? Lets say 2-3 different scenarios but all have a decent response, how does the experience differ?

It makes me wonder if I actually have ever heard "good bass" in respect to what is actually achievable...Interesting stuff...
For example when I had dual Submersives I felt it sounded pretty decent and enjoyed my time with them. I had a bit of time into calibrating everything, of course learning for the first time as I went. I did eventually have some wacky phase issues so I would guess I was a case that had a good response but wacky alignment of time/phase or whatever combination. Sounded good at MLP but varied drastically around the room.


I knew it wouldn't be so simple, at least for a 'casual' like me. I think now I am in no way going to try and implement three different woofer systems. SI18's or if finances allow other JTR subwoofers but two different subwoofer systems max for sure, plenty of output either way with a LCR 215RT starting base
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post #37116 of 40055 Old 04-07-2017, 08:33 PM
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To go with what I said earlier, here are is a recent measurement I took of a "high" and a "low" sub crossed over at 30 Hz. Even though the low sub rolls off fairly quickly above 25 Hz, it's phase still interferes with the "high" sub at 46 Hz. The subs are in time but out of phase at the low frequencies and are out of time and out of phase at 46 Hz. This is shown in severe cancellation. In this case, the frequency response makes it clear that something is wrong, but one might not know how to fix the issue.

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post #37117 of 40055 Old 04-07-2017, 08:44 PM
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@jlpowell84 ,
As desertdome showed, out of phase subs shows up as frequency response problems.
You can also measure the phase individually with REW.

As long as you use matching subs with the same filter settings, you're not running in double bass mode, and you time align, your phase should be good.
It's mixing different subs, different filter settings, or running in double base mode where things get hairy.
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post #37118 of 40055 Old 04-09-2017, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
@jlpowell84 ,

As desertdome showed, out of phase subs shows up as frequency response problems.

You can also measure the phase individually with REW.



As long as you use matching subs with the same filter settings, you're not running in double bass mode, and you time align, your phase should be good.

It's mixing different subs, different filter settings, or running in double base mode where things get hairy.


Isn't that exactly what's intended with 215's and stand alone subwoofers?


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post #37119 of 40055 Old 04-09-2017, 08:49 AM
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All these measurements show single point in space results. Move a foot or two in any direction and they change often dramatically. It is an interesting exercise to try and get the best response across multiple seat locations but most don't have the tools nor knowledge to do this manually. Better to employ Audyssey, ARC or Dirac and let those automatic EQ systems make the adjustments. Using passive measures like room treatments will help as will tweaking the FR to taste after the auto EQ.

I saw Hamilton (it lived up to all the hype ) yesterday in San Francisco and had great seats 12 rows up center. The dialog and lyrics come fast and furious and it was difficult to hear due to reflections in the nearly 100 year old theater (Orpheum). This touring company has one of the best theatrical sound directors and teams in the business and even they can't overcome all the limitations of the space.

To tie this back to the topic at hand, the 215RT's present the most cohesive top to bottom sound I have heard in my room without EQ. More acoustic treatments to further tame low bass frequencies would be the best way to make it better but unless they are strategically placed and very thick, such treatments won't touch the ULF's. Sometimes you just gotta say good enough is enough.

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post #37120 of 40055 Old 04-09-2017, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Isn't that exactly what's intended with 215's and stand alone subwoofers?
I've never owned 215s, but I've always gotten better results with small mode than with double bass mode, when using subs.
YMMV.
There are pros and cons, but if you run double bass mode, the con to watch out for is potential cancellation.
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post #37121 of 40055 Old 04-09-2017, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
All these measurements show single point in space results. Move a foot or two in any direction and they change often dramatically. It is an interesting exercise to try and get the best response across multiple seat locations but most don't have the tools nor knowledge to do this manually. Better to employ Audyssey, ARC or Dirac and let those automatic EQ systems make the adjustments. Using passive measures like room treatments will help as will tweaking the FR to taste after the auto EQ.

I saw Hamilton (it lived up to all the hype ) yesterday in San Francisco and had great seats 12 rows up center. The dialog and lyrics come fast and furious and it was difficult to hear due to reflections in the nearly 100 year old theater (Orpheum). This touring company has one of the best theatrical sound directors and teams in the business and even they can't overcome all the limitations of the space.

To tie this back to the topic at hand, the 215RT's present the most cohesive top to bottom sound I have heard in my room without EQ. More acoustic treatments to further tame low bass frequencies would be the best way to make it better but unless they are strategically placed and very thick, such treatments won't touch the ULF's. Sometimes you just gotta say good enough is enough.
Isn't it better to to do 'passive measures' aka room treatments before auto eq? As in it's better to "present" any auto eq system a better raw response then then filters have less work, don't have to work as hard...

Glad you have found your best experience to date Say what's your latest Raw pre EQ FR response look like?
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post #37122 of 40055 Old 04-09-2017, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I've never owned 215s, but I've always gotten better results with small mode than with double bass mode, when using subs.
YMMV.
There are pros and cons, but if you run double bass mode, the con to watch out for is potential cancellation.
I don't plan on double bass mode. I plan to use the 215's dual 19mm xmax latest 2017 woofers in the 10cu ft cab AS subwoofers and main speakers in one. Using the Mini DSP NanoAVR-HD to re-route the LFE channel to them. Perhaps I am wrong but I thought this IS NOT double bass the the true and correct way to use these irregular speakers (due to extension ability) as subwoofers. Now of course when I plan to run a simple stereo config at first with no subs then LFE is auto routed to the mains. But when I plug subs into the Sub out on the AVR and calibrate as such then using the NanoHD will not be "double bass"

This was my whole reasoning of going after the 215's rather than the 210's or 212's. For music any would do just fine. My thinking was not just a conversation piece in such a large speaker but actually using them as the main subwoofers like RMK does. Basically only difference I want to do is add a couple SI18's nearfield for the reasons you experienced during the KC crawl. And possibly a couple more SI 18's as smoothing subs if needed. I have four so that's really the only reason I have talked about four thus far.

Am I incorrect in my thinking?
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post #37123 of 40055 Old 04-09-2017, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Isn't it better to to do 'passive measures' aka room treatments before auto eq? As in it's better to "present" any auto eq system a better raw response then then filters have less work, don't have to work as hard...

Glad you have found your best experience to date Say what's your latest Raw pre EQ FR response look like?
Well I say measure, treat the room then measure again but those are single point measurements and don't tell the whole story

Below is the raw response from the day the 215RT's were installed. I've measured a few time since (always with OmniMic) but didn't save the curves.


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post #37124 of 40055 Old 04-10-2017, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
I don't plan on double bass mode. I plan to use the 215's dual 19mm xmax latest 2017 woofers in the 10cu ft cab AS subwoofers and main speakers in one. Using the Mini DSP NanoAVR-HD to re-route the LFE channel to them. Perhaps I am wrong but I thought this IS NOT double bass the the true and correct way to use these irregular speakers (due to extension ability) as subwoofers. Now of course when I plan to run a simple stereo config at first with no subs then LFE is auto routed to the mains. But when I plug subs into the Sub out on the AVR and calibrate as such then using the NanoHD will not be "double bass"

This was my whole reasoning of going after the 215's rather than the 210's or 212's. For music any would do just fine. My thinking was not just a conversation piece in such a large speaker but actually using them as the main subwoofers like RMK does. Basically only difference I want to do is add a couple SI18's nearfield for the reasons you experienced during the KC crawl. And possibly a couple more SI 18's as smoothing subs if needed. I have four so that's really the only reason I have talked about four thus far.

Am I incorrect in my thinking?
Yes, incorrect.

If you route bass (LFE and/or setting to large) to 215s without subs, you don't need to worry about cancellation problems.
If you mix 215s with subs without using a crossover (mains set to large rather than small), you may have cancellation problems, if their phase doesn't match.
Nearfield subs count as subs.

It's possible that you will be lucky, or that you prefer the benefits of nearfield subs, despite cancellation problems.

The best paths do avoiding this are:
1) Don't use subs - just mains as full range.
2) Run the mains as small and use all matching subs with consistent high pass filters.
3) Carefully match the high pass filters and phase on the subs to match the high pass filter and phase of your mains.

With option 1, you have another potential problem that all the subs are on the front of the room. For a closed room, without heavy room treatment on the rear wall, that approach may probably get nasty nulls from modes along the length of the room, depending on your seating position.

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post #37125 of 40055 Old 04-10-2017, 09:29 AM
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@RMK thats a beautiful raw response! And the house curve! Well done in treating your room.
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post #37126 of 40055 Old 04-10-2017, 09:40 AM
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Yes, incorrect.

If you route bass (LFE and/or setting to large) to 215s without subs, you don't need to worry about cancellation problems.
If you mix 215s with subs without using a crossover (mains set to large rather than small), you may have cancellation problems, if their phase doesn't match.
Nearfield subs count as subs.

It's possible that you will be lucky, or that you prefer the benefits of nearfield subs, despite cancellation problems.

The best paths do avoiding this are:
1) Don't use subs - just mains as full range.
2) Run the mains as small and use all matching subs with consistent high pass filters.
3) Carefully match the high pass filters and phase on the subs to match the high pass filter and phase of your mains.

With option 1, you have another potential problem that all the subs are on the front of the room. For a closed room, without heavy room treatment on the rear wall, that approach may probably get nasty nulls from modes along the length of the room, depending on your seating position.
Maybe I'm confused then. So 215's with LFE technically double bass? What is technically different than running three Cap 1400's as LCR speaker stand, 228HTR's as speakers DIRECTLY on top of them then a couple SI 18 near field than double bass? Crossover handled internally rather than the 215RT but I don't see the difference.

Maybe let me pose the question this way. Let's say I get a couple 4000ULF's and put on the front wall with LCR 215RT's. I run the 215RT's small and the 4000ULF's near field AND STILL do a couple SI 18's nearfield. Same exact potential issues correct? Mixing subs can can issues in phase we obviously know at this point but no different than running 215's with LFE routed right?

OR the HPF affecting phase is the difference? What about the internal preset HPF on the 4000ULF set by Jeff?

The thread Archaea posted Carp documented using two different amps with HPF ability on the 215 with mixing the SI18's x8 he has. One jacked up the phase and response the other had no effect. So an analog HPF would be safe?


Also in direct response to your 1-3 options I don't see how not running LFE to the 215RT's and using as main subs is the focal point of building a system with these capable speakers. Otherwise whats the point of having them if you are going to run them small? Seriously why not just get 212HTRs or 210RT's then for music at least?

Option 3 how does one go about carefully matching HPF's and phase? Need to get a couple units that can control phase? In my reading I discovered one guy found a little box with a dial that could control phase...SI18's were planning to be sealed so no HPF but if it presents a serious issue I would consider ported. This is why I'm asking all these questions. For me it's not good enough to build gear, spend all this money and be careless 'oh well' attitude it will work out and ignore the science. I want to understand best I can so I'm educated to approach potential issues.

Thanks for you time

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post #37127 of 40055 Old 04-10-2017, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Maybe I'm confused then. So 215's with LFE technically double bass? What is technically different than running three Cap 1400's as LCR speaker stand, 228HTR's as speakers DIRECTLY on top of them then a couple SI 18 near field than double bass? Crossover handled internally rather than the 215RT but I don't see the difference.

Maybe let me pose the question this way. Let's say I get a couple 4000ULF's and put on the front wall with LCR 215RT's. I run the 215RT's small and the 4000ULF's near field AND STILL do a couple SI 18's nearfield. Same exact potential issues correct? Mixing subs can can issues in phase we obviously know at this point but no different than running 215's with LFE routed right?

OR the HPF affecting phase is the difference? What about the internal preset HPF on the 4000ULF set by Jeff?

The thread Archaea posted Carp documented using two different amps with HPF ability on the 215 with mixing the SI18's x8 he has. One jacked up the phase and response the other had no effect. So an analog HPF would be safe?


Also in direct response to your 1-3 options I don't see how not running LFE to the 215RT's and using as main subs is the focal point of building a system with these capable speakers. Otherwise whats the point of having them if you are going to run them small? Seriously why not just get 212HTRs or 210RT's then for music at least?

Option 3 how does one go about carefully matching HPF's and phase? Need to get a couple units that can control phase? In my reading I discovered one guy found a little box with a dial that could control phase...SI18's were planning to be sealed so no HPF but if it presents a serious issue I would consider ported. This is why I'm asking all these questions. For me it's not good enough to build gear, spend all this money and be careless 'oh well' attitude it will work out and ignore the science. I want to understand best I can so I'm educated to approach potential issues.

Thanks for you time
Double bass is sending LFE to mains + subs. Some receivers present it differently. Sometimes it just says "mains + subs."

The phase problem happens when sending the same signal to different types of speakers, not sending different signals to the same speaker.

Yes, mixing different subs with the same signal has the same potential problems as mixing 215s and subs.

I think most of the phase shift is caused by the minimum phase high pass filter, although the port may also contribute. That includes most analog and digital high pass filters used for subs. You can avoid a phase shift with linear phase digital filters, but that can cause audible pre-ringing with low frequencies (muddy bass.) That's why most people use min-phase filters with subs.

So, if you can control the high pass filters with the nearfield subs, you could tune the frequency and slopes so that the phase matches the 215s. The way to check this is by looking at the phase reading with REW, and by looking for cancellation in the combined frequency response. It's sometimes hard to separate phase cancellation from room modes, but looking at the measured phase differences should help.
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post #37128 of 40055 Old 04-10-2017, 11:43 AM
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Double bass is sending LFE to mains + subs. Some receivers present it differently. Sometimes it just says "mains + subs."

The phase problem happens when sending the same signal to different types of speakers, not sending different signals to the same speaker.

Yes, mixing different subs with the same signal has the same potential problems as mixing 215s and subs.

I think most of the phase shift is caused by the minimum phase high pass filter, although the port may also contribute. That includes most analog and digital high pass filters used for subs. You can avoid a phase shift with linear phase digital filters, but that can cause audible pre-ringing with low frequencies (muddy bass.) That's why most people use min-phase filters with subs.

So, if you can control the high pass filters with the nearfield subs, you could tune the frequency and slopes so that the phase matches the 215s. The way to check this is by looking at the phase reading with REW, and by looking for cancellation in the combined frequency response. It's sometimes hard to separate phase cancellation from room modes, but looking at the measured phase differences should help.
I see...

As far as my AVR I won't be setting it to 'Mains+subs' 'LARGE+Subs' or at least I thought with the Nano routing LFE. But I admit I have not dissected that process yet.
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post #37129 of 40055 Old 04-10-2017, 06:38 PM
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I see...

As far as my AVR I won't be setting it to 'Mains+subs' 'LARGE+Subs' or at least I thought with the Nano routing LFE. But I admit I have not dissected that process yet.
This is a nice video about min phase vs linear phase filters. Not exactly what we're talking about, but it shows some of the concepts well.
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post #37130 of 40055 Old 04-11-2017, 12:10 AM
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Official JTR speaker thread

Wow, learned a great deal thanks for posting that vid!

So minimum phase is much less detrimental for a HPF, linear definitely has its advantages...

So what about a NanoAVR-HD where it does it's stuff in the irregular spot in the signal chain, effects on phase the same?

And do products advertise which 'mode' filters are used in? Like a mini dsp unit uses minimum phase? Other products?




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Wow, learned a great deal thanks for posting that vid!

So minimum phase is much less detrimental for a HPF, linear definitely has its advantages...

So what about a NanoAVR-HD where it does it's stuff in the irregular spot in the signal chain, effects on phase the same?

And do products advertise which 'mode' filters are used in? Like a mini dsp unit uses minimum phase? Other products?
Unless it's specifically called out, you can generally assume min phase.

As for "less detrimental for a HPF," it's really about the low frequencies, rather than HPF. With the low frequencies, the pre-ringing is more audible, because it's over more time. For example, if it pre-rings for 3 cycles, that is longer for longer wavelengths. The amount of ringing will be proportional to the slope and amplitude of the filter.

An exception is if the ringing from the filter is cancelling out already existing ringing. That's where mixed phase room correction can shine, because it will tune both the phase and amplitude of the filter to cancel out problems.

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@jlpowell84 ,


I think you are missing the point of what carp and I discovered in testing that I relayed in post 37113 --- and that which LTD02 explained in those threads I linked. It isn't that you need an analog HPF for the JTR 215RT. It's that the analog Mic2200 I was using happened to use the second order HPF (12dB per octave) HPF that we needed to mix ported and sealed without issue. When carp implemented that same second order HPF (12dB per octave) filter on his 215RT using the iNuke DSP 3000 he was able to integrate with his 8 sealed identically to the analog Mic2200. So it wasn't the Mic2200's analog HPF --- It was the fact it was a second order HPF. (12dB per octave) --- which is what you need.

Specifically post 30
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post25939282

I think this discussion has got overly complicated for your needs. It's over my head, and if it's over your head -- don't lose sleep on the gritty details. You, of course, should measure with a calibrated mic to verify the setup is integrating correctly --- but in all likelihood - based on two different ported sealed combinations, in two different rooms - (ported caps and sealed in my room) (JTR 215RT and sealed in Carps room) and the science as @LTD02 explained IN post 26 (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1612041-blending-ported-sealed-analog-vs-digital-hpf-other-ramblings.html#post25938449) you just need to make sure the HPF you implement on the 215RT is a second order HPF. (12dB per octave) to mix well with your sealed 21" --- I feel fairly confident this will get you what you need.


By the way -- if you don't have a calibrated mic to test --- then I have one question -- Why don't you have a calibrated mic?
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Much more helpful than my ramblings.
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post #37134 of 40055 Old 04-11-2017, 09:06 AM
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@RMK thats a beautiful raw response! And the house curve! Well done in treating your room.
Wish I could take credit but it was a free consult from Keith Yates after a GTG he attended that gave me the basic treatment ideas. As a result, the room is pretty dead sounding. I didn't entirely follow his treatment concepts as he said "don't treat the side wall reflections", only the front, ceiling and back wall. For 2 channel music he was spot on as the side wall reflections can add a nice openness (liveness? ) to the sound. For movies, I prefer killing the side wall reflections and just hearing the direct radiated sound at the main LP. I tested this out subjectively (e.g. no corroborating measurements ) and found there were audible differences, but the sound effects delta was not enough to motivate me to remove the side absorption panels for music.

BTW, that measurement was L&R (main) speakers only. Adding the center would change things but when that happens, I'm normally playing a movie or a MC concert vid and all 11 (or 7 in some cases) speakers are playing. Could it sound better with different speaker/seating locations, more (or less) treatments and EQ?, undoubtedly yes but I hope to never find out what it is I'm missing.

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@jlpowell84 ,


I think you are missing the point of what carp and I discovered in testing that I relayed in post 37113 --- and that which LTD02 explained in those threads I linked. It isn't that you need an analog HPF for the JTR 215RT. It's that the analog Mic2200 I was using happened to use the second order HPF (12dB per octave) HPF that we needed to mix ported and sealed without issue. When carp implemented that same second order HPF (12dB per octave) filter on his 215RT using the iNuke DSP 3000 he was able to integrate with his 8 sealed identically to the analog Mic2200. So it wasn't the Mic2200's analog HPF --- It was the fact it was a second order HPF. (12dB per octave) --- which is what you need.

Specifically post 30
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post25939282

I think this discussion has got overly complicated for your needs. It's over my head, and if it's over your head -- don't lose sleep on the gritty details. You, of course, should measure with a calibrated mic to verify the setup is integrating correctly --- but in all likelihood - based on two different ported sealed combinations, in two different rooms - (ported caps and sealed in my room) (JTR 215RT and sealed in Carps room) and the science as @LTD02 explained IN post 26 (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1612041-blending-ported-sealed-analog-vs-digital-hpf-other-ramblings.html#post25938449) you just need to make sure the HPF you implement on the 215RT is a second order HPF. (12dB per octave) to mix well with your sealed 21" --- I feel fairly confident this will get you what you need.


By the way -- if you don't have a calibrated mic to test --- then I have one question -- Why don't you have a calibrated mic?
Greetings J Yes I have a CSL UMM-6 and a Mini DSP Umik for backup.

As far as overly complicated IMO I don't think so. I want to understand how phase works in it's entirety as at least enough to have a base knowledge. I didn't just want to know what to do so that I have no idea what I'm doing but I know how to make it work. Just the way I am...I know this is the JTR speaker thread but it's loose and beneficial educational discussion. I understand many hold forum views of, "Post least as possible, DON'T POST OFF TOPIC! It's a chore to review/keep up with my threads and when guys like Jlpowell84 ramble on it's annoying." But I don't live my life in reaction to other people Respectful yes but never reactionary. Anyway I wanted to understand and now I understand! There are some that like scientific audio discussion and thats why I decided to ask in general.

Watching that video last night when the guy had two identical frequency sine waves playing it amplified it 6db as expected, as he gently turned the knob out of phase the amplitude/DB decreased to a place of a single sine wave volume, then decreased to a place of flat line or completely out of phase. For whatever reason understand phase 'rolls' acts like normal sound waves was not getting through to my thick skull! Also his demonstration of using the analyzer in the program he was using to show the effects of minimum and linear phase on an actual frequency graph was so educational! He demonstrated the look on a frequency graph then how Min and Lin phase filters add pre ringing and both effect the sound. It made total sense! I get it! Yes it gets deeper but that's the base level I wanted to know and enough to understand how to attack these issues by myself in setting up optimal sound which is ultimately the goal

BTW I am selling the PORTED 21's, keeping four SI 18HT's I have new in boxes still. Figured three 215RT's and four filler subs with two near-field would provide and amazing bass experience.

I will continue to read the rest of those threads to learn more, thanks for adding to the discussion. The KC crew alone has done much for my audio journey, knowledge and wallet...
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Much more helpful than my ramblings.
In my ADD way of learning you successfully 'turned on the light bulb.' Along with DD's post that got me thinking and reading Archaea's links.
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post #37137 of 40055 Old 04-11-2017, 10:29 AM
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Wish I could take credit but it was a free consult from Keith Yates after a GTG he attended that gave me the basic treatment ideas. As a result, the room is pretty dead sounding. I didn't entirely follow his treatment concepts as he said "don't treat the side wall reflections", only the front, ceiling and back wall. For 2 channel music he was spot on as the side wall reflections can add a nice openness (liveness? ) to the sound. For movies, I prefer killing the side wall reflections and just hearing the direct radiated sound at the main LP. I tested this out subjectively (e.g. no corroborating measurements ) and found there were audible differences, but the sound effects delta was not enough to motivate me to remove the side absorption panels for music.

BTW, that measurement was L&R (main) speakers only. Adding the center would change things but when that happens, I'm normally playing a movie or a MC concert vid and all 11 (or 7 in some cases) speakers are playing. Could it sound better with different speaker/seating locations, more (or less) treatments and EQ?, undoubtedly yes but I hope to never find out what it is I'm missing.
Yes side wall reflections are the single most biggest deal in 2-channel audio optimal performance. It's why Ethan Winer (believes in side wall absorption) has been intensley debated from Nyal Mellor, and the Erksine guys and I'm sure Yates if one looks far enough back to see him on here. Basically Nyal, Erksine, Yates are all disciples of Toole. When Toole studied all his reflection stuff it turned all the general understanding of the 60's, 70's and 80's upside down. He proved side wall first reflection points SHOULD NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER BE ABSORBED! Look at Nyal's design of Dlbeck's theater at side walls. He did slat style 1x4's over absorption. slat's covered 65% I believe it was and reflect frequencies down to around 500hz I imagine. Nyal has since developed his slat style even more which proves his R&D on the subject and it's importance.

Basically the way the brain and it overall works is if a speaker has 'moslty' identical off axis performance to the nice on axis direct sound it reflects off the side walls and arrives to our ears the same frequency response as on axis which sounds good because the response is nearly identical. Arriving nano seconds later makes our brains think the room is more spacious than it actually is. This is a very poor description, I understand the concept but admit I'm a novice But that make sense? A speaker with poor off axis will reflect and arrive at the listener nano seconds later and actually make it sound worse because the reflected frequency response is drastically different than the nice on axis. @Nyal Mellor could chime in if he feels

Now I have been told elsewhere JTR is not good at all to benefit from this because an ultra narrow 60 degree horizontal pattern. @Jeff Permanian could you expand on your 60 degree theory? That even the JBL 4722 has a narrow 90 degree horizontal and really 120 degrees is optimal. So JTR's don't get to benefit from this as much unless up against walls in a narrow room. I was also told that many in testing felt a tiny tweeter (wide dispersion) bookshelf souded much bigger than the narrow focused 215's 60 degree pattern. No one flame about this, lets keep it civil and mature...

I am curious does anyone have off axis measurements of any JTR speaker?

As far as side panels Rob what about this. I have a idea for my future room of a nice little easy hook system. That spots that are beneficial for absorption for cinema have a discrete black painted slot hook at top sticking out 1/2-3/4 inch. Have a reflective 'music' panel with a female hook on top that takes 10 seconds to grab from storage spot and quickly hook over the absorption. Then have another 2-channel music EQ perhaps. Simple yea? It's possible the 60 degree dispersion will not benefit much but depends on off axis and distance...
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The 60° dispersion is actually more of an advantage than a liability. Side reflections can be distracting and smear the affected frequencies especially voices. I noted this at a recent visit to the Theater for a musical play. For HT they are even more annoying and if the space is dual function (e.g. movies/music), I prefer the 60°. For 2 channel, a case can be made for first reflections and that live performance feel but unless your room, speaker dispersion pattern and listening position are all optimized, the results could be less than ideal and come at the expense of detail. That's why I did not remove the side wall absorption panels preferring instead to listen to direct rather than reflected sound.

I might be happier with diffusers over the absorption like Dlbeck but I believe my current setup best supports the sound I like for 90% my HT room use. Chasing that extra 10% for 2 channel will likely cost me elsewhere and that's just not worth the effort. Of course all of this is just my $.02 (see my signature line) and perhaps worth even less to you ...



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Yes side wall reflections are the single most biggest deal in 2-channel audio optimal performance. It's why Ethan Winer (believes in side wall absorption) has been intensley debated from Nyal Mellor, and the Erksine guys and I'm sure Yates if one looks far enough back to see him on here. Basically Nyal, Erksine, Yates are all disciples of Toole. When Toole studied all his reflection stuff it turned all the general understanding of the 60's, 70's and 80's upside down. He proved side wall first reflection points SHOULD NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER BE ABSORBED! Look at Nyal's design of Dlbeck's theater at side walls. He did slat style 1x4's over absorption. slat's covered 65% I believe it was and reflect frequencies down to around 500hz I imagine. Nyal has since developed his slat style even more which proves his R&D on the subject and it's importance.

Basically the way the brain and it overall works is if a speaker has 'moslty' identical off axis performance to the nice on axis direct sound it reflects off the side walls and arrives to our ears the same frequency response as on axis which sounds good because the response is nearly identical. Arriving nano seconds later makes our brains think the room is more spacious than it actually is. This is a very poor description, I understand the concept but admit I'm a novice But that make sense? A speaker with poor off axis will reflect and arrive at the listener nano seconds later and actually make it sound worse because the reflected frequency response is drastically different than the nice on axis. @Nyal Mellor could chime in if he feels

Now I have been told elsewhere JTR is not good at all to benefit from this because an ultra narrow 60 degree horizontal pattern. @Jeff Permanian could you expand on your 60 degree theory? That even the JBL 4722 has a narrow 90 degree horizontal and really 120 degrees is optimal. So JTR's don't get to benefit from this as much unless up against walls in a narrow room. I was also told that many in testing felt a tiny tweeter (wide dispersion) bookshelf souded much bigger than the narrow focused 215's 60 degree pattern. No one flame about this, lets keep it civil and mature...

I am curious does anyone have off axis measurements of any JTR speaker?

As far as side panels Rob what about this. I have a idea for my future room of a nice little easy hook system. That spots that are beneficial for absorption for cinema have a discrete black painted slot hook at top sticking out 1/2-3/4 inch. Have a reflective 'music' panel with a female hook on top that takes 10 seconds to grab from storage spot and quickly hook over the absorption. Then have another 2-channel music EQ perhaps. Simple yea? It's possible the 60 degree dispersion will not benefit much but depends on off axis and distance...
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post #37139 of 40055 Old 04-12-2017, 12:35 PM
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The 60° dispersion is actually more of an advantage than a liability. Side reflections can be distracting and smear the affected frequencies especially voices. I noted this at a recent visit to the Theater for a musical play. For HT they are even more annoying and if the space is dual function (e.g. movies/music), I prefer the 60°. For 2 channel, a case can be made for first reflections and that live performance feel but unless your room, speaker dispersion pattern and listening position are all optimized, the results could be less than ideal and come at the expense of detail. That's why I did not remove the side wall absorption panels preferring instead to listen to direct rather than reflected sound.

I might be happier with diffusers over the absorption like Dlbeck but I believe my current setup best supports the sound I like for 90% my HT room use. Chasing that extra 10% for 2 channel will likely cost me elsewhere and that's just not worth the effort. Of course all of this is just my $.02 (see my signature line) and perhaps worth even less to you ...
You could always try some GIK diffusion panels. If you don't like I would buy from you Met with realtor yesterday and we may list on the 20th to the 1st of May. House up here in OR surrounding Eugene areas are on the market for an avg of 5-7 days. Prices have skyrocketed too. Our neighbors are asking 78 grand more than we bought for albeit they have one additional 12x14 bedroom and hardwood kitchen floors. Regardless we will profit nicely from the sell But I will be 2hrs from you within 2 months, will have to hear your room regardless!

Side wall reflections, as I understand, only smear the sound when off axis is poor. If the off axis is near identical to the on axis response then the reflected sound will actually enhance the entire experience. OR at least in my limited understanding this is what Toole proved without a shadow of a doubt in his research. That's because the off axis reflected sound has the same frequency response shape and that sounds good to our ears while increasing other benefits. If the off axis is poor and looks drastically different than the on axis this is when it smears the sound. So most likely with a 60degree outside of the dispersion it will have poor off axis so absorption is probably best. Because after toe in there is no way the side wall will be within 60 degrees. Regardless there will be a spot where 60 degrees hits and I wonder even if it was behind the MLP on the side wall if it would be beneficial. Need to do more research

Yea I agree 60 degree can have it's advantages. But in all reality CORRECTLY using first point side wall reflections to increase spatial soundstage is not hard at all. Correct speaker placement, and even simple DIY or GIK combo panels that scatter with absorption behind. This in reality is super easy and in all we spend and do on our rooms scientifically it should be a resounding number one thing in respect to setting the room up/treating. But a speaker HAS to have good off axis tapering further away to benefit from this. If off axis is poor then absorption is better.

I do admit humbly these are not things I have much experience testing myself but have mostly understood on a theory level. I did have absorption on side walls when I had Triple 8's and felt my room sounded good.

A great cheap way to test this is use a pair of JBL LSR305's. They have a wide dispersion and great off axis performance. Setting up a pair in anyone's room and putting diffusion at first side wall reflections and listening to see if the soundstage has increased in width.

Really at the end of the day all that matters is does your system put a smile on your face? This is what I have been chasing since entering this hobby with my flatscreen tv, Onkyo TR616 AVR and Onkyo HTIB in Dec 2012. Well since hearing better systems, learning more. I felt the JBL's sounded pretty damn good but I looking forward the getting the 215's. I have a feeling I'm not as picky as some of these more 'scientific' ones. I want to learn to optimize my sound as I understand how the room dominates sound though...

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post #37140 of 40055 Old 04-12-2017, 01:18 PM
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You could always try some GIK diffusion panels. If you don't like I would buy from you Met with realtor yesterday and we may list on the 20th to the 1st of May. House up here in OR surrounding Eugene areas are on the market for an avg of 5-7 days. Prices have skyrocketed too. Our neighbors are asking 78 grand more than we bought for albeit they have one additional 12x14 bedroom and hardwood kitchen floors. Regardless we will profit nicely from the sell But I will be 2hrs from you within 2 months, will have to hear your room regardless!
Where are you moving to? Since I am 4 miles from Rob, I will also be 2 hours away so we will need to have another GTG.

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