Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1308 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #39211 of 39311 Old 08-27-2019, 07:17 PM
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The 215 rms really pound. I did find that I enjoy the impact and slam more with ARC turned off on my anthem MRX 720. ARC seems to really tone done it’s capabilities in my room. I have a Yamaha p7000s powering the L&R and a Yamaha p3500s bridge for the center. Can really enjoy a movie without my Marty cubes turned on. Don and Jeff were great to work with and very happy with the speakers and deal Don gave me on them.
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post #39212 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by erikpgarcia View Post
The 215 rms really pound. I did find that I enjoy the impact and slam more with ARC turned off on my anthem MRX 720. ARC seems to really tone done it’s capabilities in my room. I have a Yamaha p7000s powering the L&R and a Yamaha p3500s bridge for the center. Can really enjoy a movie without my Marty cubes turned on. Don and Jeff were great to work with and very happy with the speakers and deal Don gave me on them.
Arc will knock down the room gain you'd otherwise get with the RM's just running native with no REQ. If you haven't already, update your 720 to ARC genesis and start tinkering with room gain and the LF boost setting. You can also otherwise use the standard bass tone control to regain some of the low end arc may be removing. Just use discretion with any adjustments you make and measure if you can to see what the changes actually do. You can get it back, AND have a smoother room response, you just have to work a little bit to get the best of both worlds with ARC.
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post #39213 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Arc will knock down the room gain you'd otherwise get with the RM's just running native with no REQ. If you haven't already, update your 720 to ARC genesis and start tinkering with room gain and the LF boost setting. You can also otherwise use the standard bass tone control to regain some of the low end arc may be removing. Just use discretion with any adjustments you make and measure if you can to see what the changes actually do. You can get it back, AND have a smoother room response, you just have to work a little bit to get the best of both worlds with ARC.


Do you know if Audyssey does the same thing? Knocks down LF and room gain from the mains?

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post #39214 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
Do you know if Audyssey does the same thing? Knocks down LF and room gain from the mains?
Audyssey is the absolute worst offender at this actually. The new app now allows you to build back in a target curve where you can gain back the low end but audyssey's stock target curve is essentially a dead flat line (with the HFC dip but that's another story) if you don't manipulate it. The app has really IMO taken audyssey from a completely unusable software to something that at the very least can be massaged into something somewhat acceptable. To this date however it is still by far my least favorite room EQ and even with the new units using the app, I chose to use room placement and treatments only back when I ran processors that had audyssey on board. YMMV
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post #39215 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Audyssey is the absolute worst offender at this actually.
Completely agree. Even using the Audyssey curve editor app + REW on my Denon, I experienced a night and day positive difference in low end response going to Dirac - even with the default curve and no REW based tweaking.
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post #39216 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 10:21 AM
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How does ARC compare to Dirac Live/Audyssey?
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post #39217 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
Which would do better as a center - the 228htr or 210rm?
I use a 210 RM as my center and love it.
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post #39218 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 10:47 AM
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Official JTR speaker thread

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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Audyssey is the absolute worst offender at this actually. The new app now allows you to build back in a target curve where you can gain back the low end but audyssey's stock target curve is essentially a dead flat line (with the HFC dip but that's another story) if you don't manipulate it. The app has really IMO taken audyssey from a completely unusable software to something that at the very least can be massaged into something somewhat acceptable. To this date however it is still by far my least favorite room EQ and even with the new units using the app, I chose to use room placement and treatments only back when I ran processors that had audyssey on board. YMMV


This is what I’ve heard in the past, just curious as to what’s been occurring lately. You’re absolutely right, all my Audyssey “curves” look like dead flat lines compared to my old Dirac curve.

My room is pretty treated - maybe I turn Audyssey off and see what’s what?

Can Audyssey time align speakers without modifying their response curves?

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post #39219 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 10:50 AM
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Official JTR speaker thread

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Originally Posted by tebling View Post
Completely agree. Even using the Audyssey curve editor app + REW on my Denon, I experienced a night and day positive difference in low end response going to Dirac - even with the default curve and no REW based tweaking.


I was using Dirac with an MiniDSP 88A with Dirac at one point. Beyond the noise it introduced into my setup (probably my fault) I really liked it.

How did you introduce Dirac into your setup?

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post #39220 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 11:13 AM
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My room is pretty treated - maybe I turn Audyssey off and see what’s what?
For experimenting/measuring and guidance certainly. But it's unlikely you'll end up with a better response without it. Treating a room to "remove all modes" such that bass response is optimum is very difficult, expensive and WAF unfriendly.


As mentioned above, the App really unlocks the capability of Audyssey to the point the end result is largely dependent upon the person using it, not limitations of the software itself. I really wish they'd make it more user friendly by including a few different "Global Target Curves" that may get people closer to a good end result more quickly and easily. But those results are obtainable with the current App, it just takes a little effort.
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post #39221 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
How did you introduce Dirac into your setup?
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post #39222 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Jon AA View Post
For experimenting/measuring and guidance certainly. But it's unlikely you'll end up with a better response without it. Treating a room to "remove all modes" such that bass response is optimum is very difficult, expensive and WAF unfriendly.


As mentioned above, the App really unlocks the capability of Audyssey to the point the end result is largely dependent upon the person using it, not limitations of the software itself. I really wish they'd make it more user friendly by including a few different "Global Target Curves" that may get people closer to a good end result more quickly and easily. But those results are obtainable with the current App, it just takes a little effort.


When you say “global” you’re meaning combined curves right? Or is my vernacular wrong.

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post #39223 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 11:52 AM
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NAD T777 v3


Does it include Atmos in the correction?

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post #39224 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by burton14e7 View Post
How does ARC compare to Dirac Live/Audyssey?
Dirac>ARC>Audyssey IMO. ARC's newest update to genesis has however gotten many folks who I know have been die-hard anti autoEQ off the fence though finally. I still have my AVM60 in storage and am halfway thinking about getting it back out just to try out Genesis and formulate my own opinion. But even with the previous ARC software, I felt it was much better than Audyssey. The jump from ARC to dirac was still a good one, but not as pronounced as the former jump.

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Can Audyssey time align speakers without modifying their response curves?
Yes, you simply run audyssey to get the distances for your speakers (delays) and levels, but then disable the audyssey EQ and re-do the levels to a specific dB, I usually went for 75dB.

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When you say “global” you’re meaning combined curves right? Or is my vernacular wrong.
You are correct....one curve that the software corrects all speakers to before you do any customization....other than their flat stock target curve.

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post #39225 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 12:12 PM
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When you say “global” you’re meaning combined curves right? Or is my vernacular wrong.
Yes. Basically a curve that would/could replace the Reference or Flat curve as the target for every speaker to begin with. You can currently make your own target curve but you need to do it with every speaker which is a bit tedious (Ratbuddy helps a TON!). Also the way it sets the levels will cause the sub to be set to a lower level than it should be when corrected to the same curve (assuming a typical curve with a rise in the bass region) so that must be increased manually for the curves to match.



It can be done and it's not hard, but it could be a lot easier as well. It's unfortunate, but I'd guess about 99% of people who are dissatisfied with XT32 did not go through this exercise. Of course, until a couple of years ago it was impossible without paying for the Pro version so it isn't necessarily their fault.
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post #39226 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 12:18 PM
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Does it include Atmos in the correction?
Yessir!
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post #39227 of 39311 Old 08-28-2019, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Dirac>ARC>Audyssey IMO. ARC's newest update to genesis has however gotten many folks who I know have been die-hard anti autoEQ off the fence though finally. I still have my AVM60 in storage and am halfway thinking about getting it back out just to try out Genesis and formulate my own opinion. But even with the previous ARC software, I felt it was much better than Audyssey. The jump from ARC to dirac was still a good one, but not as pronounced as the former jump.







Yes, you simply run audyssey to get the distances for your speakers (delays) and levels, but then disable the audyssey EQ and re-do the levels to a specific dB, I usually went for 75dB.







You are correct....one curve that the software corrects all speakers to before you do any customization....other than their flat stock target curve.


Thanks! I’ll try it with Audyssey completely off. Then with the delays input. Then finally with Audyssey back on.

I wish Audyssey had a house curve you could conform everything to like you indicated. Otherwise they have to be adjusted speaker by speaker correct?

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Yessir!


I have a separate amp running XLRs, Drat!

I wish there was a good Dirac outboard solution besides what MiniDSP offers. Or they would update the 88a to include Atmos.
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post #39229 of 39311 Old 08-29-2019, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Arc will knock down the room gain you'd otherwise get with the RM's just running native with no REQ. If you haven't already, update your 720 to ARC genesis and start tinkering with room gain and the LF boost setting. You can also otherwise use the standard bass tone control to regain some of the low end arc may be removing. Just use discretion with any adjustments you make and measure if you can to see what the changes actually do. You can get it back, AND have a smoother room response, you just have to work a little bit to get the best of both worlds with ARC.
Made some adjustments to ARC Genesis and am now very happy with the end result. Appreciate the tips and tricks beastaudio!
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post #39230 of 39311 Old 09-10-2019, 04:39 PM
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Here are some videos I just made:

Book of Eli - Are These Graves:

Super 8 - Production Value
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The crispy gun shots and the scary metal screeching sound put me right there in the movie set. The dynamics from these Noesis 212HTs are crazy!
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Chucky are you using a seperate amp for the 212's for just AVR? I tried both and couldn't tell the difference. In my room using the inuke limiter for testing I could hit reference at the MLP with less than 5 watts (credit to Archaea, he tried the same test first in his room).
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post #39232 of 39311 Old 09-10-2019, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Chucky are you using a seperate amp for the 212's for just AVR? I tried both and couldn't tell the difference. In my room using the inuke limiter for testing I could hit reference at the MLP with less than 5 watts (credit to Archaea, he tried the same test first in his room).
I don't have seperates. I am only using a Denon AVR-X4400h to drive the speakers. I calculated that at my usual MV of -8dB, I need 8 watts combined for my 212HT L/C/R. This is why I am running the Denon on ECO mode. The saving in energy is more of a sure thing than the improvement in SQ.

One of these days I will try a cheapo power amp just to satisfy my curiosity though...
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post #39233 of 39311 Old 09-12-2019, 03:33 PM
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So...

I am considering upgrading my main LCR with JTR speakers... Currently I have RSL CG24 LCR and they have actually been more that I would have expected...
Thanks to chucky7 and his Noesis 212HT upgrade I have really been pondering and exploring the options.

If you were me... What would you consider to be the better option?

Option 1
Noesis 210RM as Center (set Vertically on carpet)... with Single 10HT for L&R atop of a Cap 1800 each side.

Option 2
Noesis 228HTR or 228HT as Center (set Vertically on carpet)... with Single 8HT for L&R atop of a Cap 1800 each side.

What are the main differences between these options? Positives, Negatives...
What is the main difference between the 228HTR or 228HT? I realize 2 way vs. 3 way but what real world difference would someone expect?

I have dual Cap 118HTs (2017) and an older Cap 2400 (sim to Cap 1400 but with the 2400 watt amp) that are wanting to adopt more siblings from Jeff's line...

HELP! and Thanks in advance...
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post #39234 of 39311 Old 09-12-2019, 04:01 PM
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^^^^

I would use 3 identical speakers instead of any of your above options.

Maybe 3 of his new 10 inch 110 HT speakers.

You want to have the same Compression Driver across the from 3
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post #39235 of 39311 Old 09-12-2019, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warndry View Post
So...

I am considering upgrading my main LCR with JTR speakers... Currently I have RSL CG24 LCR and they have actually been more that I would have expected...
Thanks to chucky7 and his Noesis 212HT upgrade I have really been pondering and exploring the options.

If you were me... What would you consider to be the better option?

Option 1
Noesis 210RM as Center (set Vertically on carpet)... with Single 10HT for L&R atop of a Cap 1800 each side.

Option 2
Noesis 228HTR or 228HT as Center (set Vertically on carpet)... with Single 8HT for L&R atop of a Cap 1800 each side.

What are the main differences between these options? Positives, Negatives...
What is the main difference between the 228HTR or 228HT? I realize 2 way vs. 3 way but what real world difference would someone expect?

I have dual Cap 118HTs (2017) and an older Cap 2400 (sim to Cap 1400 but with the 2400 watt amp) that are wanting to adopt more siblings from Jeff's line...

HELP! and Thanks in advance...
Oh yes!!!

It seems you would like to get the most front stage speakers out of $4,300. I would probably go with 3 228HTs or 3 110HTs. I would also look at the 110XMs (the pro monitors) because the form factor might work really well for you.
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Last edited by chucky7; 09-12-2019 at 06:45 PM.
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post #39236 of 39311 Old 09-13-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
^^^^

I would use 3 identical speakers instead of any of your above options.

Maybe 3 of his new 10 inch 110 HT speakers.

You want to have the same Compression Driver across the from 3
Great point raynist... I wasn't sure if the Compression Drivers would be similar enough...


Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Oh yes!!!

It seems you would like to get the most front stage speakers out of $4,300. I would probably go with 3 228HTs or 3 110HTs. I would also look at the 110XMs (the pro monitors) because the form factor might work really well for you.
I haven't heard anything on the 110XM models, any specs chucky7?

I should have specified... Short term for the 8HT or 10HT would be to be in L&R...
Long term would be for (3) 210RM or (3) 228HT for LCR duties... with the 8HT or 10HT to be put to use as rear surrounds... when funds permitted, I may just wait a bit longer.
What is the major difference in the sound signatures of the 8"ers vs. 10"ers?
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post #39237 of 39311 Old 09-13-2019, 11:44 AM
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I haven't heard anything on the 110XM models, any specs chucky7?

I should have specified... Short term for the 8HT or 10HT would be to be in L&R...
Long term would be for (3) 210RM or (3) 228HT for LCR duties... with the 8HT or 10HT to be put to use as rear surrounds... when funds permitted, I may just wait a bit longer.
What is the major difference in the sound signatures of the 8"ers vs. 10"ers?
The 110XM is the pro audio version of the 110HT. The specs are almost identical. Seeing that you want to put a Noesis 210RM vertically on carpet as center, I thought the the 110XM's cabinet would work well in that application.

If your long term plan is to go L/C/R, then go with the largest (you can fit in the HT), and the best sounding (you are comfortable with spending) center. The 210RM + 2 110HTs would work.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #39238 of 39311 Old 09-13-2019, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
The 110XM is the pro audio version of the 110HT. The specs are almost identical. Seeing that you want to put a Noesis 210RM vertically on carpet as center, I thought the the 110XM's cabinet would work well in that application.

If your long term plan is to go L/C/R, then go with the largest (you can fit in the HT), and the best sounding (you are comfortable with spending) center. The 210RM + 2 110HTs would work.
So are the box dimensions the same between the 110HT and the 110XM?
Also are the compression drivers the same on the 210RM and the 110HT/110XM?
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post #39239 of 39311 Old 09-13-2019, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warndry View Post
So are the box dimensions the same between the 110HT and the 110XM?
Also are the compression drivers the same on the 210RM and the 110HT/110XM?
The compression drivers are not the same.

The RM series uses the 2 way higher end CD also found on the HTR series.

If the plan is to get a 210RM now for a center and 2 more later for L/R then a mismatched LCR isn’t so bad for now.
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post #39240 of 39311 Old 09-13-2019, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warndry View Post
So are the box dimensions the same between the 110HT and the 110XM?
Also are the compression drivers the same on the 210RM and the 110HT/110XM?
The box dimensions are different.

The 110HT is 16" tall, 11" wide, 8" deep. The cabinet dimensions suggest that it would be a good fit for surrounds where low profile is important.

The 110XM is 16" wide, 14" deep and 9.5" tall (as sitting on the floor).

110XM sitting on the floor:


The 110HT


The compression drivers are different on the 210RM and the 110HT/110XM because the 210RM is a 3 way design and the 110HT/110XM is a 2 way design.

The 210RM has a 2 way ultra high end coaxial compression driver (tweeter + mid range), and 2 10" woofers. This compression driver is top notch.

The 110HT/110XM is more value oriented. The coaxial driver is the compression driver (tweeter) mounted behind a 10" woofer.

The 210RM's compression driver probably costs 3 times vs the 110HT/110XM compression driver. 3 way designs also have much more extensive crossover network.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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