Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1335 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #40021 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by kyzer soze View Post
This thread took a turn for the worse

@muscles What ever happened to your friend who was interested in your 212 RT's? I think you mentioned going with the 215 RT's possibly.
He is the guy that asked the original question (ethos4lyfe). The reason why I felt compelled to jump in is because we have almost the same exact equipment, he has a AV Pre and I have an AVR but they are both Marantz. He heard the 2 channel at my house, he knows the difference. I guess from now on I will refrain from giving my impressions and just list the spec sheet, its not like 99% of the stuff in this industry isn't sold by evaluation lol.

He decided to get the 212RT's and I still have mine. His setup is very similar to mine. He wants that 2 channel buttery goodness.

Greg

Subwoofers: Dual JTR RS1's - SB13 Ultra (bedroom)
Speakers: 2xJTR Noesis 212RT 1 210RM - KEF LS50W
Audio:McIntosh C2600 Pre - Marantz SR-8012 -Dual McIntosh 601's - PS Audio M700 - McIntosh MT5 - GoldNotePH10 - Oppo UDP-205 - BlueSound Node 2
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post #40022 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 05:26 PM
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I compared them with no room correction for either(mac pre's do not have room correction at all), just straight 2 channel. I don't know why the Mac C2600 pushes the amps so much harder and cleaner, it is awe inspiring. I am just thankful I don't have to use my AVR for music listening because its no where near as good. IMO movies aren't nearly as impressive sonically as a good music setup.

It's not just the volume that is different, because I am running the amps with both systems, I use a home theater bypass. I use an SPL meter to get the amp to about 110-115DB during the same music and the sound coming out of the AVR compared to the Mac hurts your ears and doesn't separate the instruments nearly as much. Why would I keep it if it didn't vastly improve things? I could sell it for like $5500 dollars???

If you don't think Preamps effect quality of output, hook up your turntable to any AVR and listen..yeah, its awful. Then try a high end Phono Pre, no need for a blind there. It matters.

Greg
Ah, you are using the AVR's internal amps to drive the speakers vs the external Macs? If so I agree 100% that the Mac will play much louder and much cleaner with your pre. The AVR has drastically less power and will be driven into clipping and distortion far before the extremely capable Mac amps. So no argument here whatsoever. I thought you were using the pre-outs on your AVR to drive the amps. Apologies.

However, my point stands that if using pre-outs from an AVR or processor that measures well and has adequate pre-out voltage to fully drive the amps, a different voltage signal from a pre that is also audibly transparent will have no sonic difference.

It appears we were discussing two completely separate points, and are both likely correct.

I'm reasonably certain for example, that I get elevated measured distortion from my speakers at high drive levels, which I believe can be attributed to my AVR(Denon X3300) running out of power and starting to clip. Some day, I hope to add a capable 3 channel external amp for my LCR and compare distortion at high level sweeps. I feel confident this is the case because I have shut down my AVR on high level sweeps with my former DIYSG speakers. Undoubtedly well into clipping by this point.
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post #40023 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 05:30 PM
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I use Audyssey MultiEQ XT32, I first EQ them with MiniDSP and REW.

As far as training goes, I have a very small setup in my garage that I use for just the basics. I have a peloton bike upstairs for cardio. I can't wait to get back into a real gym. I am over 230lbs right now, I need to drop some bulk.

Greg
I have all the basics downstairs....power rack, barbell, plenty of weight, flat bench. I can do all the basics; squat, bench, dead, chins, press. Also have a Scwinne Airdyne for HIIT, although I've been running steps and doing some hill sprints. The Airdyne sucks, should be renamed Satan imo.

Do you have the cell phone app for Audysey?
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post #40024 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 05:32 PM
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Ah, you are using the AVR's internal amps to drive the speakers vs the external Macs? If so I agree 100% that the Mac will play much louder and much cleaner with your pre. The AVR has drastically less power and will be driven into clipping and distortion far before the extremely capable Mac amps. So no argument here whatsoever. I thought you were using the pre-outs on your AVR to drive the amps. Apologies.

However, my point stands that if using pre-outs from an AVR or processor that measures well and has adequate pre-out voltage to fully drive the amps, a different voltage signal from a pre that is also audibly transparent will have no sonic difference.

It appears we were discussing two completely separate points, and are both likely correct.

I'm reasonably certain for example, that I get elevated measured distortion from my speakers at high drive levels, which I believe can be attributed to my AVR running out of power and starting to clip. Some day, I hope to add a capable 3 channel external amp for my LCR and compare distortion at high level sweeps. I feel confident this is the case because I have shut down my AVR on high level sweeps with my former DIYSG speakers. Undoubtedly well into clipping by this point.
No, I use the monoblocks with both. The C2600 has a HT bypass, so it can be used for home theater and 2 channel. Why would McIntosh do this if AVR's did just as good a job? Why are they so respected and world renowned? I only use my AVR for surround/atmos speakers. LCR are all monoblocks.

Greg
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post #40025 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 05:36 PM
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No, I use the monoblocks with both. The C2600 has a HT bypass, so it can be used for home theater and 2 channel. Why would McIntosh do this if AVR's did just as good a job? Why are they so respected and world renowned? I only use my AVR for surround/atmos speakers. LCR are all monoblocks.

Greg
Ah, so:
Marantz pre-outs---->monoblocks---->mains
or
Mac----->monoblocks---->mains.

I wonder what kind of voltage the Mac's need for full power?
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post #40026 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by kyzer soze View Post
This thread took a turn for the worse

@muscles What ever happened to your friend who was interested in your 212 RT's? I think you mentioned going with the 215 RT's possibly.
that's me!! haha, the 215rt wouldn't fit at his house, so i went ahead and got my own setup
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post #40027 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by muscles View Post
He is the guy that asked the original question (ethos4lyfe). The reason why I felt compelled to jump in is because we have almost the same exact equipment, he has a AV Pre and I have an AVR but they are both Marantz. He heard the 2 channel at my house, he knows the difference. I guess from now on I will refrain from giving my impressions and just list the spec sheet, its not like 99% of the stuff in this industry isn't sold by evaluation lol.

He decided to get the 212RT's and I still have mine. His setup is very similar to mine. He wants that 2 channel buttery goodness.

Greg
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post #40028 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Ah, so:
Marantz pre-outs---->monoblocks---->mains
or
Mac----->monoblocks---->mains.

I wonder what kind of voltage the Mac's need for full power?
Yes I think that's what hes doing - which is why the sound is so much better? Again, you all know so much more than me, I just know what I hear. And didn't mean to start a heated discussions, BUT, I got the smart minds talking!! haha

So based on that, I should notice a difference right? I would be doing the same exact same, except av8005 vs 8012 that he has

Speakers: JTR 212RTs - JTR 210RM - JTR 110HTs (x4)
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post #40029 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ethos4Lyfe View Post
that's me!! haha, the 215rt wouldn't fit at his house, so i went ahead and got my own setup
Another JTR owner in California . Whats your thoughts on the 212's?

When things start to settle down and I'm ready to start putting together my system again I really gotta hear these JTR speakers. I gotta go by @chucky7 house first and hear those 228HT's.

Ascend Sierra 2's (LCR & side surrounds) + Pioneer atmos modules. 5.1.4 setup
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post #40030 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Ah, so:
Marantz pre-outs---->monoblocks---->mains
or
Mac----->monoblocks---->mains.

I wonder what kind of voltage the Mac's need for full power?
Funny you bring that up. I have been wondering why it gets so much louder and still has so much more headroom. I asked McIntosh directly but they will absolutely not comment or help with anything other than McIntosh. That company doesn't play around, if you are troubleshooting your system you have to pretty much take anything that isn't McIntosh out of the equation before they will help you. I asked them, he told me that McIntosh Pre's are designed to utilize every ounce of power out of their Amps, didn't quote me exact output voltages but I could find that out with a simple google search. I really don't know what it is, but man does it sound sweet. I always welcome my house for a test if anyone is in the area and wants to check it out. I really have my RS1's dialed in where I like them. That is one variable I have not swapped out which could end the mystery to this debate. I haven't tried this with another brand of Monoblocks....hmmmm...


Greg
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Subwoofers: Dual JTR RS1's - SB13 Ultra (bedroom)
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Audio:McIntosh C2600 Pre - Marantz SR-8012 -Dual McIntosh 601's - PS Audio M700 - McIntosh MT5 - GoldNotePH10 - Oppo UDP-205 - BlueSound Node 2
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post #40031 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by kyzer soze View Post
Another JTR owner in California . Whats your thoughts on the 212's?

When things start to settle down and I'm ready to start putting together my system again I really gotta hear these JTR speakers. I gotta go by @chucky7 house first and hear those 228HT's.
Ethos4lyfe and I were actually online chatting before either of us got the JTR's. We knew each other from the Martin Logan forums and such. I told him I was trading my 13a's for some JTR's and he couldn't believe I would sell a 16-18k speaker to buy a 6k or so set. I told him that they would be easier to image in my room and would fit closer to the wall and add some much needed room between me and the speakers, thus opening my room a bit.

He came by for an all day demo-a-thon and immediately put his entire ML line up for sale and started on his JTR journey. I bet I could sell JTR speakers all day long with this setup, its so impressive. I haven't heard a demo in any high end store that is as dynamic or crystal clear as the JTR's at the volume they can belt it out at. Its like club volume with concert hall clarity. It was exactly what he and I had been on a journey to find but had been disappointed in the audiophile offerings thus far. Fast forward today and he is rocking more JTR speakers than I am (he has the 110's as well). I am in Costa Mesa on the border of Newport Beach if you ever want to demo some movies and music. Just let me know.

Greg

Subwoofers: Dual JTR RS1's - SB13 Ultra (bedroom)
Speakers: 2xJTR Noesis 212RT 1 210RM - KEF LS50W
Audio:McIntosh C2600 Pre - Marantz SR-8012 -Dual McIntosh 601's - PS Audio M700 - McIntosh MT5 - GoldNotePH10 - Oppo UDP-205 - BlueSound Node 2
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post #40032 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kyzer soze View Post
Another JTR owner in California . Whats your thoughts on the 212's?

When things start to settle down and I'm ready to start putting together my system again I really gotta hear these JTR speakers. I gotta go by @chucky7 house first and hear those 228HT's.
dude. obsessed. i have 5 speakers, adding two more 110HTs to the sides whenever I get back to la. where ru located?
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post #40033 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyzer soze View Post
Another JTR owner in California . Whats your thoughts on the 212's?

When things start to settle down and I'm ready to start putting together my system again I really gotta hear these JTR speakers. I gotta go by @chucky7 house first and hear those 228HT's.
Yeah, dude!

You have a standing invitation to my house. You know where I am at.

Unfortunately, I don't have the 228HTs, or the Endgame reference 212RTs + 210RM like muscles or Ethos4Lyfe.

I have the 212HTs as L/C/R and the Cap 4000ULF.
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post #40034 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyzer soze View Post
Another JTR owner in California . Whats your thoughts on the 212's?

When things start to settle down and I'm ready to start putting together my system again I really gotta hear these JTR speakers. I gotta go by @chucky7 house first and hear those 228HT's.
Chucky actually has the 212HT's, and that insane ULF4000!!! He goes hard on his demos. Bring a second set of underwear with you.

Greg
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post #40035 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethos4Lyfe View Post
dude. obsessed. i have 5 speakers, adding two more 110HTs to the sides whenever I get back to la. where ru located?
I'm in culver city/West LA. Where are you?

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post #40036 of 40395 Old 04-05-2020, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyzer soze View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethos4Lyfe View Post
dude. obsessed. i have 5 speakers, adding two more 110HTs to the sides whenever I get back to la. where ru located?
I'm in culver city/West LA. Where are you?
Noho/Burbank area. When I get back to town after quarantine you can swing by
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post #40037 of 40395 Old 04-06-2020, 07:51 AM
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With the 110HT's, how do you determine if you need the flat ones or the slanteds? My current surrounds are mounted about mid-way up the walls on the sides and rears of my dedicated theater (two rows of seats - 3 each). The rear row of seats are up against the wall with the back speakers on either side of the row. My MLP is in the front row, center.

Could I do the slanteds at the sides - since they are basically aligned with the front row - and then do the flats for the back? Or do the slanteds at the back too? Or, the flats all around?

Thanks for any insight!
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post #40038 of 40395 Old 04-06-2020, 08:42 AM
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With the 110HT's, how do you determine if you need the flat ones or the slanteds? My current surrounds are mounted about mid-way up the walls on the sides and rears of my dedicated theater (two rows of seats - 3 each). The rear row of seats are up against the wall with the back speakers on either side of the row. My MLP is in the front row, center.

Could I do the slanteds at the sides - since they are basically aligned with the front row - and then do the flats for the back? Or do the slanteds at the back too? Or, the flats all around?

Thanks for any insight!
From what I understand, slanted if youre going to put them high up. I have mine close to ear level, so I got the flat pair. I'm going to add a side pair also, at ear level - so ill go flat

Speakers: JTR 212RTs - JTR 210RM - JTR 110HTs (x4)
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I've only ever had experience with 3-4 amps, so I'm not really in a position to weigh in on the amp/pre-amp debate.

I'm a huge advocate of blind testing. It's fun, and super enlightening. However, something that's always bothered me a little bit about the blind testing process with audio is that it differs from how we actually listen. We don't hear with our ears, we hear with our brains. Ears are just one of many input vessels that our brain receives data from in order to produce what we hear. I think even pure objectivist would agree that people really do "hear" differences between sonically transparent devices, objectivists just think those differences manifest from other input vessels other than the ears(eyes, other parts of the brain, ect.) Assuming that we listen - for the most part - with our eyes open, how important is it that sonic improvements we hear only come from the ear? If the sonic improvements you hear come instead from eyes and expectation, is that not a real improvement? If no, why not? A weak visual analogy could be an optical illusion. You may see something that's not technically there, but does that mean you don't "see" it? I would say you do see it, just not with your eyes, but with your brain.
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post #40040 of 40395 Old 04-06-2020, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Ethos4Lyfe View Post
From what I understand, slanted if youre going to put them high up. I have mine close to ear level, so I got the flat pair. I'm going to add a side pair also, at ear level - so ill go flat
Both pairs of my current surrounds are about half way up the wall from a "seated" level perspective. Ceilings are relatively low - a bit less than 8 ft. I would say the middle of the surrounds are roughly 2-3 ft. above my ears.

So, given this, thoughts on slanted vs. flat?
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post #40041 of 40395 Old 04-06-2020, 07:50 PM
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Posted this in the JTR subwoofer section and figured I should actually post here since I'm dealing in JTR speakers...

So the first two pics I already posted there but figured I'd post them here too. I ordered 12 of the 110's, 6 regular and 6 slanted, and 10 of the 12 showed up last week. Also I still don't know how to flip a pic. The last pic is the surrounds and rear atmos height speakers. One of the regular 110's in that pic is the extra I bought just in case I move. I'm still waiting on two more slanted 110's that will replace the front atmos heights seen in the pic of the JBL's which are currently JBL810's.

I got the front LCR hooked up and the side surrounds and played some Battlefield 4 campaign and then watched 2012 yesterday. Both sounded amazing. It's interesting to me that I was right in my assertion that the more expensive speakers would be wasted on me. Yes I would've gone bigger but not for more headroom or the better CD's, but for the woofers in the 215RM's after desertdome mentioned using the woofers in them as subs in a DBA. I honestly can't tell a difference between my JBL's and the JTR's. The only issue with the JBL's was they can't do reference with any headroom and with mixes all over the place I've wanted speakers that can coast at reference with headroom to spare. Well I definitely accomplished that goal.

While the CD can go much louder than my JBL's they don't sound any different to me when kept within the JBL's limits. I always wondered if the highs were the same as the lows....if eq'd the same they should sound the same. To ME it appears that way. I know most won't agree but after hearing and listening to the JTR's I never once thought they sounded better than my JBL's at "normal" volumes. Not a knock on the JTR's or saying my cheaper JBL's are miracle workers. Just that when kept within their limits speakers will sound more the same then different. At higher volumes though it's readily apparent....They have no sign of distress whatsoever and can take all the power my Emo amps can put out. Also the fact my surrounds are slanted and aimed at the MLP made a difference too.

Though that does bring me to an interesting topic...sensitivity. The JTR's are listed at 95db at 8ohms and the JBL's 92db for the LCR and 90db for the surrounds. Yet I did a quick test tone run to set the levels and other than the one surround adjustment of -.5db they all didn't require any adjusting. I thought that was a little odd. No they're no 212 with a 99db rating or higher but even a 3db swing in sensitivity should require some adjustment you'd think?? Though with 750 watt power handling not an issue.

I would've had everything up and running and tried an audyssey calibration, yeah yeah I know but I'm waiting on the JBL SDP-55 to work better, but when I went to hang the rear surrounds I mentioned to my wife about painting the rest of the room black and she said then why mount them now? Paint the room and then hang the speakers. Curse that woman and her uncommon common sense!! I'm gonna grab some paint this week and hopefully by next weekend have the surrounds done and just wait on the front atmos channels. I'll try and get a couple more pics as well.

Anyway I'm thrilled with the speakers so far and really haven't cranked em yet. I think the speakers are worth every penny and even if I never move I'd be more than happy to live with these the rest of my life. Though 215's would be nice.
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post #40042 of 40395 Old 04-06-2020, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethos4Lyfe View Post
Noho/Burbank area. When I get back to town after quarantine you can swing by
hey Ethos

I have the older 212RMs.. contemplating of getting the 212RTs or the 215RTs. Have you heard the 215RTs in person?
How do they compare?

I'm probably going to sell the 212RMs LCRs and thinking about 3 215RTs to go with 3 x 2400 Caps. Getting an acoustic screen to put all those monsters behind.



Wondering if it will be too much.. my room is fully enclosed, about 2400 cubed...I should just go with the 212RTs because I think they would be a huge upgrade over what I have now but I can't help but think I should go big.

With 3 x 215s and 2 x 2400 Caps up front and behind the acoustic screen. That puts the speakers and subs at 92 inches wide altogether. My room is only 11 feet wide (132 inches). I think my ears will bleed =)
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post #40043 of 40395 Old 04-06-2020, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by point1 View Post
hey Ethos

I have the older 212RMs.. contemplating of getting the 212RTs or the 215RTs. Have you heard the 215RTs in person?
How do they compare?

I'm probably going to sell the 212RMs LCRs and thinking about 3 215RTs to go with 3 x 2400 Caps. Getting an acoustic screen to put all those monsters behind.



Wondering if it will be too much.. my room is fully enclosed, about 2400 cubed...I should just go with the 212RTs because I think they would be a huge upgrade over what I have now but I can't help but think I should go big.

With 3 x 215s and 2 x 2400 Caps up front and behind the acoustic screen. That puts the speakers and subs at 92 inches wide altogether. My room is only 11 feet wide (132 inches). I think my ears will bleed =)
@chucky and @muscles can speak better than I can regarding that. I wanted to get 215s but they wouldn't fit. The 212RTs are really something though, couldn't be happier.

Speakers: JTR 212RTs - JTR 210RM - JTR 110HTs (x4)
Subwoofer: Dual Rythmik G25HPSE
Audio Gear: Marantz 8805 - Krell Chorus 5200 + D-Sonic M3a-800S - BS Node 2i - Oppo 203
TV: LG 65 OLED
Bedroom: ML Ethos - ML Motion 30 - Samsung Q8 LED
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post #40044 of 40395 Old 04-06-2020, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethos4Lyfe View Post
Noho/Burbank area. When I get back to town after quarantine you can swing by
I would be interested too if you don't mind.
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post #40045 of 40395 Old 04-06-2020, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by point1 View Post
hey Ethos

I have the older 212RMs.. contemplating of getting the 212RTs or the 215RTs. Have you heard the 215RTs in person?
How do they compare?

I'm probably going to sell the 212RMs LCRs and thinking about 3 215RTs to go with 3 x 2400 Caps. Getting an acoustic screen to put all those monsters behind.



Wondering if it will be too much.. my room is fully enclosed, about 2400 cubed...I should just go with the 212RTs because I think they would be a huge upgrade over what I have now but I can't help but think I should go big.

With 3 x 215s and 2 x 2400 Caps up front and behind the acoustic screen. That puts the speakers and subs at 92 inches wide altogether. My room is only 11 feet wide (132 inches). I think my ears will bleed =)
Unless you plan on going full range for most things, I'd go with the 212's and I have the 215RT's... the 212's are actually a bit louder and more sensitive. you can see in my profile pic what the 215's look like behind a 135" screen (click my name)
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post #40046 of 40395 Old 04-06-2020, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcjago View Post
I would be interested too if you don't mind.
Lets have a party! Well, when we are allowed back into society
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Speakers: JTR 212RTs - JTR 210RM - JTR 110HTs (x4)
Subwoofer: Dual Rythmik G25HPSE
Audio Gear: Marantz 8805 - Krell Chorus 5200 + D-Sonic M3a-800S - BS Node 2i - Oppo 203
TV: LG 65 OLED
Bedroom: ML Ethos - ML Motion 30 - Samsung Q8 LED
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post #40047 of 40395 Old 04-07-2020, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muscles View Post
I compared them with no room correction for either(mac pre's do not have room correction at all), just straight 2 channel. I don't know why the Mac C2600 pushes the amps so much harder and cleaner, it is awe inspiring. I am just thankful I don't have to use my AVR for music listening because its no where near as good. IMO movies aren't nearly as impressive sonically as a good music setup.

It's not just the volume that is different, because I am running the amps with both systems, I use a home theater bypass. I use an SPL meter to get the amp to about 110-115DB during the same music and the sound coming out of the AVR compared to the Mac hurts your ears and doesn't separate the instruments nearly as much. Why would I keep it if it didn't vastly improve things? I could sell it for like $5500 dollars???

If you don't think Preamps effect quality of output, hook up your turntable to any AVR and listen..yeah, its awful. Then try a high end Phono Pre, no need for a blind there. It matters.

Greg
My LCR is now the same as yours, but I haven't had much chance to do a lot of listening yet.


It's entirely possible the AVR pre is getting over-driven as you match it to the Mac. This is made more likely since you also often say the Mac will play louder, did you mean it gets louder at the same volume settings that are matched? It really shouldn't get louder, that would be weird.
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post #40048 of 40395 Old 04-07-2020, 09:57 AM
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I'll use the word "pre" to refer to any preamp, processor, or DAC that sends the analog signal to the amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
The pre has almost zero impact on how loud the speakers play....that's all amp.
I disagree (I currently own at least 10 pre's or DAC's)
Does the pre clip the subwoofer signal (like a Marantz/Denon pre/pro)?
Is the output fully balanced vs single ended?
What is the maximum clean output voltage of the pre?
Does the pre roll off the low frequencies or is it DC coupled?
Does the pre clip intersample peaks?
Does the bass management reduce the speaker levels or increase the subwoofer level when mixing the redirected bass?
Does the pre accumulate all volume adjustments to the end of the DSP chain or does it do them in order?

Quote:
An audibly transparent voltage signal being sent to the amps from a $600 AVR will not "sound" any different than an audibly transparent signal being sent to the amps from a super expensive pre.
That is true, but you are assuming the $600 AVR has "an audibly transparent voltage signal." Even the $4,499 Marantz AV8805 has high (and audible) noise and distortion compared to even a fairly cheap DAC. Besides that, many of the above list will affect how an AVR sounds. Here are some more items to consider:
Does the pre dither when converting back to 24 bits for the output?
What kind of dither is used?
What type of resampling is used by the pre?
Does the pre use resampling to reduce the jitter?
How good is the jitter suppression on the HDMI input?
How well does the pre's clock clean up the signal?
What bitrate does the DSP use for volume control prior to final output?
Does the pre have a 9 Gbps or an 18 Gbps HDMI input?
What type of filter does the pre use on frequencies over 20 kHz? (Some pre's offer 5-7 options just for filtering)
Does the buffer of the pre change size when different sample rates are used?

I have a unique business model in that I spec theaters and try to only sell products only from companies that I have a direct relationship and contact with the owner/engineer. All of these desire for their product to sound and look the best and design for that purpose. They aren't willing to compromise for lower quality to increase profit, but they also don't "upsell" something that doesn't produce any benefit. The only exception is that I don't actually know the person responsible for designing/programming JVC projectors. However, I work with their US reps and technicians.

Speakers - JTR Speakers (Jeff Permanian)
Amplifiers - Digital Amp Company (Tommy O'Brien)
Processor - StormAudio (Sébastien Gailleton)
DAC - RME (Matthias Carstens)
Music and Movie source - JRiver Media Center (Jim Hillegas and Matt Ashland)
Projector Screen - Seymour Screen Excellence (Chris Seymour)
Anamorphic Lens - Panamorph (Shawn Kelly)
Video Processing - Lumagen (Jim Peterson)
Acoustic Treatments - GIK Acoustics (Glenn & Shelly Kuras)

Jim at Lumagen recently talked about a change he did on the Lumagen Radiance Pro in order to improve sound quality through the HDMI output:

I think there is still merit in viewing and listening tests, at least for your own use. I attended a demo in Germany by Cinemike to compare the original Pro design (which had higher jitter than current design) to the Cinemike "hot rod" version. Cinemike reduced the jitter (as measured on the Tektronix HDMI tester), and the electrical noise floor (as shown on a spectrum analyser). They wanted me to judge if there was a difference. I told them to consider me an "open minded skeptic" as to whether the improvements would be visible or audible. They played video/music with the original Pro and their hot rod version. I did hear an audible improvement. I describe this to be a more open sound stage, and I attribute this to the lower jitter out of the Pro. I considered the lower jitter version a closer match to my 2-channel Jeff Roland, Watt Puppy, based system (no longer have this). So, IMO, a noticeable, and appreciated, improvement. However, I did not see any visible picture difference. The original Pro was IMO without issue for video, but I thought there was room for improvement for audio.

How sure was I? I can tell you that I added significant cost in a revision of the Radiance Pro design to change to microwave capacitors in key locations to reduce output jitter, and to a small degree electrical noise. This was out of my profit since I did not increase the product cost at the same time. I can assure if I was not certain there was an improvement I would not reduce my profit for such a change. Not a chance. While I upgraded to microwave capacitors for audio, having lower jitter for video is not a bad thing and might put a "system" with a marginal cable or a marginal projector input into the "good enough" range.

Ponderosa Theater
High Impact AV
- JTR Speakers Customer Appreciation Sale
- ISF Level III Video Calibrator, THX-HAA HT3 Audio Designer/Calibrator
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post #40049 of 40395 Old 04-07-2020, 10:13 AM
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Dangerous question, but proceed we must...What would you say are the best sounding (imaging, soundstage, neutral balance, etc.) JTR models? I have 212HTRs from 2015 as L/C/R that often strike me as a bit bright and forward sounding, which got me wondering.....

I have what I would think is a fairly damped dedicated room (Length 19.3', Width 14.7', Height 8.5'). I've used Dirac quite a bit but perhaps simply need to EQ down the top a bit more.


3x JTR 212 HTRs (L/C/R)
2x JTR Slant 8s
Dual Danley DTS-10s
Emotiva XMC-1 (5.2 mode)
Emotiva XPA-7
QSC 2450a (stereo mode- 750w/ch)
miniDSP 2x4 HD

3x JTR 212 HTR, 6x Slant-LP 8, 2x Single 8s; 2x Danley DTS-10; Emotiva RMC-1L, XPA-7, XPA-6; Speakerpower SP2-4800-DP; MiniDSP 2x4 Balanced
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post #40050 of 40395 Old 04-07-2020, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I'll use the word "pre" to refer to any preamp, processor, or DAC that sends the analog signal to the amp.


I disagree (I currently own at least 10 pre's or DAC's)
Does the pre clip the subwoofer signal (like a Marantz/Denon pre/pro)?
Is the output fully balanced vs single ended?
What is the maximum clean output voltage of the pre?
Does the pre roll off the low frequencies or is it DC coupled?
Does the pre clip intersample peaks?
Does the bass management reduce the speaker levels or increase the subwoofer level when mixing the redirected bass?
Does the pre accumulate all volume adjustments to the end of the DSP chain or does it do them in order?


That is true, but you are assuming the $600 AVR has "an audibly transparent voltage signal." Even the $4,499 Marantz AV8805 has high (and audible) noise and distortion compared to even a fairly cheap DAC. Besides that, many of the above list will affect how an AVR sounds. Here are some more items to consider:
Does the pre dither when converting back to 24 bits for the output?
What kind of dither is used?
What type of resampling is used by the pre?
Does the pre use resampling to reduce the jitter?
How good is the jitter suppression on the HDMI input?
How well does the pre's clock clean up the signal?
What bitrate does the DSP use for volume control prior to final output?
Does the pre have a 9 Gbps or an 18 Gbps HDMI input?
What type of filter does the pre use on frequencies over 20 kHz? (Some pre's offer 5-7 options just for filtering)
Does the buffer of the pre change size when different sample rates are used?

I have a unique business model in that I spec theaters and try to only sell products only from companies that I have a direct relationship and contact with the owner/engineer. All of these desire for their product to sound and look the best and design for that purpose. They aren't willing to compromise for lower quality to increase profit, but they also don't "upsell" something that doesn't produce any benefit. The only exception is that I don't actually know the person responsible for designing/programming JVC projectors. However, I work with their US reps and technicians.

Speakers - JTR Speakers (Jeff Permanian)
Amplifiers - Digital Amp Company (Tommy O'Brien)
Processor - StormAudio (Sébastien Gailleton)
DAC - RME (Matthias Carstens)
Music and Movie source - JRiver Media Center (Jim Hillegas and Matt Ashland)
Projector Screen - Seymour Screen Excellence (Chris Seymour)
Anamorphic Lens - Panamorph (Shawn Kelly)
Video Processing - Lumagen (Jim Peterson)
Acoustic Treatments - GIK Acoustics (Glenn & Shelly Kuras)

Jim at Lumagen recently talked about a change he did on the Lumagen Radiance Pro in order to improve sound quality through the HDMI output:

I think there is still merit in viewing and listening tests, at least for your own use. I attended a demo in Germany by Cinemike to compare the original Pro design (which had higher jitter than current design) to the Cinemike "hot rod" version. Cinemike reduced the jitter (as measured on the Tektronix HDMI tester), and the electrical noise floor (as shown on a spectrum analyser). They wanted me to judge if there was a difference. I told them to consider me an "open minded skeptic" as to whether the improvements would be visible or audible. They played video/music with the original Pro and their hot rod version. I did hear an audible improvement. I describe this to be a more open sound stage, and I attribute this to the lower jitter out of the Pro. I considered the lower jitter version a closer match to my 2-channel Jeff Roland, Watt Puppy, based system (no longer have this). So, IMO, a noticeable, and appreciated, improvement. However, I did not see any visible picture difference. The original Pro was IMO without issue for video, but I thought there was room for improvement for audio.

How sure was I? I can tell you that I added significant cost in a revision of the Radiance Pro design to change to microwave capacitors in key locations to reduce output jitter, and to a small degree electrical noise. This was out of my profit since I did not increase the product cost at the same time. I can assure if I was not certain there was an improvement I would not reduce my profit for such a change. Not a chance. While I upgraded to microwave capacitors for audio, having lower jitter for video is not a bad thing and might put a "system" with a marginal cable or a marginal projector input into the "good enough" range.
Jitter is right up there with cables/break-in and power conditioners...
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