Official JTR speaker thread - Page 962 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #28831 of 39615 Old 04-20-2015, 02:54 PM
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I had Triple 12 LCR w/ DefTech Mythos Tens as side and rear surrounds for a couple years. They sounded great together below -10. After that they would start compressing. They were definitely the weak link in my system so I would never go past reference level to avoid blowing the Tens.
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post #28832 of 39615 Old 04-20-2015, 04:55 PM
 
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I am in the same shoe with you Naylorman32. , the different I have B&W surruond and they (JTR) recommended
Noesis 210RM. I just sold B&W 804 as front and I like to upgrade and see the different in JTR speakers. What do you guys think? I also looking at B&W 802D


I am still researching if I want to upgrade all at once or get a front first. Time will tell.
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post #28833 of 39615 Old 04-20-2015, 06:25 PM
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I am in the same shoe with you Naylorman32. , the different I have B&W surruond and they (JTR) recommended
Noesis 210RM. I just sold B&W 804 as front and I like to upgrade and see the different in JTR speakers. What do you guys think? I also looking at B&W 802D


I am still researching if I want to upgrade all at once or get a front first. Time will tell.
I love the sound of B&W 802Ds, so perhaps we have similar taste. That said, the JTR 212HTs made me stop caring about 802Ds. The B&W, Goldenears, and JTRs actually have a lot in common, to my ears.

Get 3x JTRs (whatever model makes sense for you) for the front soundstage and 4x good subs (if you don't already have them).

I think the B&W and Goldenear surrounds will be pretty reasonable with JTR LCRs, but some high efficiency coax surrounds would be ideal for surrounds and ceiling speakers.
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post #28834 of 39615 Old 04-20-2015, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by vinha916 View Post
I am in the same shoe with you Naylorman32. , the different I have B&W surruond and they (JTR) recommended
Noesis 210RM. I just sold B&W 804 as front and I like to upgrade and see the different in JTR speakers. What do you guys think? I also looking at B&W 802D


I am still researching if I want to upgrade all at once or get a front first. Time will tell.
The Noesis 210RT is a TRUE FR speaker... Another good combo would be 212HT LCR with dual Capitivator 1400's. The 1400's have a intro sale right now. Almost 400$ less. If your thinking of going to upgrade I'd jump on the subs atleast first. That would save you some money..
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post #28835 of 39615 Old 04-21-2015, 08:19 AM
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The Noesis 210RT is a TRUE FR speaker... Another good combo would be 212HT LCR with dual Capitivator 1400's. The 1400's have a intro sale right now. Almost 400$ less. If your thinking of going to upgrade I'd jump on the subs atleast first. That would save you some money..
If you want to go the full range route, rather than the sub route, of 210RT and 215RT are your options.

If you go the sub route, the top models are 212HT and 215RM.

If you have an AT screen, 3 identical vertical speakers is the way to go.
If not, you could mix the RTs with a matching RM as center.

Some people love full range.
Subs can be tricky to set up well, but the main advantage is that you get more placement flexibility, which can be very useful.
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post #28836 of 39615 Old 04-21-2015, 09:11 AM
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If you want to go the full range route, rather than the sub route, of 210RT and 215RT are your options.

If you go the sub route, the top models are 212HT and 215RM.

If you have an AT screen, 3 identical vertical speakers is the way to go.
If not, you could mix the RTs with a matching RM as center.

Some people love full range.
Subs can be tricky to set up well, but the main advantage is that you get more placement flexibility, which can be very useful.
I think the 210RT's would be fine (probably great) run full range for most music, but for movies they would be missing some content at the lower frequencies. Of course, reference level bass at <20Hz isn't everyone's goal.

I am usually pretty reserved in my comments but the 215RT is a special speaker. After living with them for over a year now, I find them exactly what I wanted in a loudspeaker. Their size makes them inappropriate for most people in non-dedicated spaces. Even in dedicated rooms, many that could easily accommodate and afford them will choose other speakers because of perceived SQ issues, lack of published measurements and pro reviews, their utilitarian appearance or even plain old audio snobbism. It's not that you can't get equal performance from great LCR's and well integrated subs especially for movie watching. My 212's and Orbit Shifters made for a fantastic movie watching experience and there are lot's of other speaker/sub combo's that can produce similar results. The ease with which the 215RT's handle all music and movie types is just astounding.

I have heard (and owned) some great loudspeaker/sub combinations over the years, but I have never heard anything like the 215RT.
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post #28837 of 39615 Old 04-21-2015, 10:04 AM
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I think the 210RT's would be fine (probably great) run full range for most music, but for movies they would be missing some content at the lower frequencies. Of course, reference level bass at <20Hz isn't everyone's goal.

I am usually pretty reserved in my comments but the 215RT is a special speaker. After living with them for over a year now, I find them exactly what I wanted in a loudspeaker. Their size makes them inappropriate for most people in non-dedicated spaces. Even in dedicated rooms, many that could easily accommodate and afford them will choose other speakers because of perceived SQ issues, lack of published measurements and pro reviews, their utilitarian appearance or even plain old audio snobbism. It's not that you can't get equal performance from great LCR's and well integrated subs especially for movie watching. My 212's and Orbit Shifters made for a fantastic movie watching experience and there are lot's of other speaker/sub combo's that can produce similar results. The ease with which the 215RT's handle all music and movie types is just astounding.

I have heard (and owned) some great loudspeaker/sub combinations over the years, but I have never heard anything like the 215RT.
I've got to hear some 215s, someday.
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post #28838 of 39615 Old 04-21-2015, 07:57 PM
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I have heard the 215's several times and they are outstanding but for my listening habits still not up to the 212HT/OS combo Sub integration is critical with the OS, but with the 215RT's they are already integrated which may be a huge advantage for some. For full range they are the about the best that I have heard and I did a lot of listening at Axpona last year.
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post #28839 of 39615 Old 04-21-2015, 08:44 PM
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I was tempted for some 215RMs during the moving sale.
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I have heard the 215's several times and they are outstanding but for my listening habits still not up to the 212HT/OS combo Sub integration is critical with the OS, but with the 215RT's they are already integrated which may be a huge advantage for some. For full range they are the about the best that I have heard and I did a lot of listening at Axpona last year.
Lol....I've been away from this thread for months as I enjoy my 212HTs and dual OSs....and this is the first post I read.....and I absolutely agree!

I'm critical as hell about HT audio, and I just get lost in these speakers (behind a 140" AT screen).... And I have only done basic calibration and setup.

Anyway...it's been months since I stopped in here, and I thought it was ironic that literally the first post I read reflects my exact sentiments!
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post #28841 of 39615 Old 04-21-2015, 10:51 PM
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Lol....I've been away from this thread for months as I enjoy my 212HTs and dual OSs....and this is the first post I read.....and I absolutely agree!

I'm critical as hell about HT audio, and I just get lost in these speakers (behind a 140" AT screen).... And I have only done basic calibration and setup.

Anyway...it's been months since I stopped in here, and I thought it was ironic that literally the first post I read reflects my exact sentiments!
great minds hear alike!
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post #28842 of 39615 Old 04-21-2015, 11:08 PM
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Been there ... done that.

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post #28843 of 39615 Old 04-21-2015, 11:31 PM
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Been there ... done that.
its about time you put a leash on that HT, in fact I should start acting my age too
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post #28844 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 07:54 AM
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Thought I'd share some Dirac screens and compare the JTR coaxes in my theater with Adam Audio AMTs I'm using in my bedroom...

Adam Audio AMT LRs in my bedroom.
Due to asymmetric room layout and bad acoustics, Dirac is correcting some substantial differences between left and right speaker response.
Imaging and clarity are dramatically improved after Dirac.
Fortunately, my Dirac Live license included a second install for free.


JTR 212HTs in my theater.
Getting a dip between 180hz and 400hz that's troubling.
It changes when I move the mic up and down, so I suspect that this is a floor or ceiling cancellation.
It disappears when I move the mic close to the speakers.
Hopefully it can be addressed with some room treatment, but Dirac handles it, for now.
Also, I found that I preferred a less treble rolloff than with the Adam AMTs, and substantially less treble rolloff than with my previous Triad Platinum dome tweeters. The coax driver in the 212HTs sounds incredible, and doesn't need to be backed off to avoid harshness. This was more true with my Parasound A51 amp than with my Hypex NC400 amps, which had a bit of edge to them with the 212s (using the same target curve) that I didn't hear with the Triad Plats (probably because I had to roll off the treble to avoid harshness with either amp).


Dirac has a quirk where you need to zoom in to the right side of the graph and drag the correction window to the right, in order to avoid a spike with the 212s, due to the extended treble response. Doing this eliminated some harshness that the default Dirac settings produced.


My LFE channel, handled by 4x Rythmik F25s.
In my room, I preferred the crossover at 120hz, which the F25s seem to handle better.
Not sure if that's due to room modes, or just the performance of the F25s vs. 212HTs.
I suspect it's a combination of both.
One nice thing about these subs is that they play so clean, you have the option of using a higher crossover point, without localization problems typically introduced by harmonics caused by port noise or other distortion.


Dirac's mixed phase correction improves the impulse response nicely, in contrast with Audyssey, which I found to be detrimental to impulse response.
This is only half of the benefit of Dirac, though. The ability to fine tune the target curve & correction window with a nice UI and rapid comparison testing plays at least as much of a role in getting great sounding results.

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post #28845 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 08:19 AM
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Thanks for posting this. I assume the PC (and Dirac) is HDMI into your SSP/AVR?

Do you have a connection diagram that shows how you have this PC version of Dirac integrated into your system?

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post #28846 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 08:41 AM
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Thanks for posting this. I assume the PC (and Dirac) is HDMI into your SSP/AVR?

Do you have a connection diagram that shows how you have this PC version of Dirac integrated into your system?
Yes, PC Dirac, HDMI, into my Onkyo pre-amp.

JRiver source -> JRiver bass mgmt -> Dirac Live for PC -> HDMI out -> Onkyo PR-SC5509 pre-amp

I did the Audyssey quick calibration first in the Onkyo to time align speakers and subs. Since the Onkyo has 2 sub outputs, this helped a lot, since Dirac is only processing 7.1. Another nice aspect of this setup is that Dirac processing will happen at the source sample rate, all the way up to 192khz, and no need for additional AD/DA steps. The bad news is that it only supports my PC as the source, and I have no Atmos.

The next upgrade will need to give me Atmos, somehow. Perhaps an Emotiva RMC-1, or if JRiver adds Atmos (etc), I might go for a Motu 24Ao, and skip the pre-amp. In that case, I may use Dirac (when they add support for more channels) or Audiolense XO. Supporting other sources would definitely be nice.
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post #28847 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 08:54 AM
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Yes, PC Dirac, HDMI, into my Onkyo pre-amp.

JRiver source -> JRiver bass mgmt -> Dirac Live for PC -> HDMI out -> Onkyo PR-SC5509 pre-amp

I did the Audyssey quick calibration first in the Onkyo to time align speakers and subs. Since the Onkyo has 2 sub outputs, this helped a lot, since Dirac is only processing 7.1. Another nice aspect of this setup is that Dirac processing will happen at the source sample rate, all the way up to 192khz, and no need for additional AD/DA steps. The bad news is that it only supports my PC as the source, and I have no Atmos.

The next upgrade will need to give me Atmos, somehow. Perhaps an Emotiva RMC-1, or if JRiver adds Atmos (etc), I might go for a Motu 24Ao, and skip the pre-amp. In that case, I may use Dirac (when they add support for more channels) or Audiolense XO. Supporting other sources would definitely be nice.
Don't forget DTS-X

Yeah, if JRiver were to add more channels and 3D Audio capability that would be a game changer. The Motu unit looks interesting. I have a slew of euroblock to XLR connectors left over from my Rane RPM88 experiment. I am currently in a less is more kind of mindset in terms of audio processing.

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post #28848 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 09:04 AM
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Don't forget DTS-X

Yeah, if JRiver were to add more channels and 3D Audio capability that would be a game changer. The Motu unit looks interesting. I have a slew of euroblock to XLR connectors left over from my Rane RPM88 experiment. I am currently in a less is more kind of mindset in terms of audio processing.
I included that in "etc."

JRiver supports plenty of channels. The lack of 3D Audio is the problem.

Dirac said that they will add more channels by the time that someone has 3D audio decoders for the PC.
Audiolense XO doesn't have a channel limit, and based on comparisons I've read, it sounds like the performance is in the same class as Dirac.

That said, JRiver can't play game consoles.
Although the hires support you get with a PC-based solution is nice to have in theory, in practice I hardly ever use it.
So, I guess I'm leaning toward the RMC-1, but we'll see what comes out first, and how patient I'm feeling.

So, not really any ideal options right now, but with your "less is more" mindset, one thing to keep in mind is that Dirac is set up right, it sounds like you removed processing, not like you added processing.
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post #28849 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 09:18 AM
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I included that in "etc."

JRiver supports plenty of channels. The lack of 3D Audio is the problem.

Dirac said that they will add more channels by the time that someone has 3D audio decoders for the PC.
Audiolense XO doesn't have a channel limit, and based on comparisons I've read, it sounds like the performance is in the same class as Dirac.

That said, JRiver can't play game consoles.
Although the hires support you get with a PC-based solution is nice to have in theory, in practice I hardly ever use it.
So, I guess I'm leaning toward the RMC-1, but we'll see what comes out first, and how patient I'm feeling.

So, not really any ideal options right now, but with your "less is more" mindset, one thing to keep in mind is that Dirac is set up right, it sounds like you removed processing, not like you added processing.
Thanks for the clarifications re JRiver/Dirac . I don't care about game consoles (too old, rather play real ones ) and I'm of a similar mind re the still theoretical RMC-1. Always curious but the current setup Atmos/Auro with the 7702 and JRiver for most 2 channel has me content (for the moment ).

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post #28850 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 10:19 AM
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I want to give rcohen a huge thanks for helping me figure out the Driac free trial the past few days. I'm a man of limited intelligence especially with computers and he was more than patient with me through the many PM's.

So, I got it going last night.

Holy cripes... the difference between the Dirac default curve and no eq (which is what I have been using) is HUGE!!! I tried both a lot last night going back and forth many times.

All I managed to do was make my ears not like either!! I wasn't surprised by this, I have enough experience with tweaking the sound in my room in the past with other speakers and using manual EQ to know that quite often you will find something that sounds great and then you turn on the system the next day and it sounds horrible or vice versa.

So I'm going to be patient. Last night Dirac sounded too mid rangy and no Dirac sounded hollow by comparison. Soundstage was tighter and more focused with Dirac but more... open and more live sounding without it. I need to find a happy medium which is obviously possible since you can create your own curve EXACTLY how you want it. It's a blessing and a curse, if you are OCD you may never find your curve. Especially since the room, your mood, the volume, how many beers you've had, etc. etc. all play a role in what sounds right at the moment.

One thing is for sure, the free trial is genius - I gotta have this!!!

Now I don't know what to do for the GTG... Dirac, no Dirac, Dirac how I like it which may be totally different from everyone else...

I just have it for 2 channel music so maybe I'll do nothing but movies and leave Dirac off.
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post #28851 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 11:02 AM
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I want to give rcohen a huge thanks for helping me figure out the Driac free trial the past few days. I'm a man of limited intelligence especially with computers and he was more than patient with me through the many PM's.

So, I got it going last night.

Holy cripes... the difference between the Dirac default curve and no eq (which is what I have been using) is HUGE!!! I tried both a lot last night going back and forth many times.

All I managed to do was make my ears not like either!! I wasn't surprised by this, I have enough experience with tweaking the sound in my room in the past with other speakers and using manual EQ to know that quite often you will find something that sounds great and then you turn on the system the next day and it sounds horrible or vice versa.

So I'm going to be patient. Last night Dirac sounded too mid rangy and no Dirac sounded hollow by comparison. Soundstage was tighter and more focused with Dirac but more... open and more live sounding without it. I need to find a happy medium which is obviously possible since you can create your own curve EXACTLY how you want it. It's a blessing and a curse, if you are OCD you may never find your curve. Especially since the room, your mood, the volume, how many beers you've had, etc. etc. all play a role in what sounds right at the moment.

One thing is for sure, the free trial is genius - I gotta have this!!!

Now I don't know what to do for the GTG... Dirac, no Dirac, Dirac how I like it which may be totally different from everyone else...

I just have it for 2 channel music so maybe I'll do nothing but movies and leave Dirac off.
I actually like it how you have had it as I believe I have mine set up the same way. I have just come to find I really don't like EQ.
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post #28852 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 01:39 PM
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I actually like it how you have had it as I believe I have mine set up the same way. I have just come to find I really don't like EQ.
I may eventually come to the same conclusion but it's fun as hell to mess with all the possibilities.
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Carp, the default curve for Dirac is not for people like us. Crank up the slope from 125hz down to 40hz then flat the rest of the way out. Also measure in a wide area and up and down but not up to a wall. Don't give up yet you are almost there!

Thank rcohen, I need to try that zoom in trick and look closer above 15khz. good stuff!
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post #28854 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 04:34 PM
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The tricky thing about Dirac is that you can spend a long time making minor tweaks, thinking about how a 0.5db change to the curve is the difference between good and great.

The problem is that as you listen, your mind is constantly adapting with its own auto-EQ, so if you take a break, thinks will sound 5db different when you come back.

So, long sessions = chasing your tail.
Multiple short sessions is the best strategy to find a curve you are happy with.
Those 0.5db differences still matter, but you are just wasting your time, if you try to dial it in to that degree in a single, long session.

It is fun, though.

Oh, and one time I spent an hour making all kinds of tweaks, congratulating myself on the minor improvements. Then I realized I had Dirac disabled, and it was all my imagination. That's a good way to feel stupid.

Despite that unfortunate incident, it really does do something when you turn it on.
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post #28855 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 04:43 PM
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Soundstage was tighter and more focused with Dirac but more... open and more live sounding without it.
Yeah, aside from the nice EQ interface, that's what Dirac does. It makes everything tighter, more like listening to headphones.

I prefer it with the LRs further apart, so you can have a wide soundstage and very focused imaging.

It kind of eliminates the open sound that some people may prefer.

It's sort of the difference between the band playing live in your room, and teleporting you to the band's room. Dirac sends you to the band's room.

Of course, it depends on the recording and personal taste, but overall, I like the effect.
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
Carp, the default curve for Dirac is not for people like us.
There's really not a one-size-fits-all curve. The default curve is a reasonable starting point to start experimenting with stuff like that, though.

Ideally, I'd have a curve tweaked for every song, but ain't nobody got time for that. I just use a single curve for everything.

Last edited by rcohen; 04-22-2015 at 07:22 PM.
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post #28857 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I included that in "etc."

JRiver supports plenty of channels. The lack of 3D Audio is the problem.

Dirac said that they will add more channels by the time that someone has 3D audio decoders for the PC.
Audiolense XO doesn't have a channel limit, and based on comparisons I've read, it sounds like the performance is in the same class as Dirac.

That said, JRiver can't play game consoles.
Although the hires support you get with a PC-based solution is nice to have in theory, in practice I hardly ever use it.
So, I guess I'm leaning toward the RMC-1, but we'll see what comes out first, and how patient I'm feeling.

So, not really any ideal options right now, but with your "less is more" mindset, one thing to keep in mind is that Dirac is set up right, it sounds like you removed processing, not like you added processing.

That last sentence is significant to me because I'm like Rob in that I don't want lots of "things" in my signal path. I didn't terminate my speaker wires at the walls (my equipment is in another room) because I wanted the signal straight from the amp with no break but your last sentence is very intriguing and makes me think about trying Dirac if it can be that transparent.

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post #28858 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 07:15 PM
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I've been away from this thread for quite a long time.

I posted my impressions with Dirac Live in the miniDSP DDRC-88a thread . In summary, it has really made my JTR set up sound the way I originally envisioned the JTRs to sound when I first got them close to three years ago. Up until the miniDSP, I had thought my JTR set up sounded "OK" but there were quite a few things that were off. For me, the miniDSP has been the most significant audio upgrade. I am still in disbelief on how much better my system sounds.

Here is my curve for my T12s, S8s, and two Cap S1s:

Last edited by quack724; 04-22-2015 at 08:23 PM.
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post #28859 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by quack724 View Post
I've been away from this thread for quite a long time.

I posted my impressions with Dirac Live in the miniDSP DDRC-88a thread . In summary, it has really made my JTR set up sound the way I originally envisioned the JTRs to sound when I first got them close to two years ago. Up until the miniDSP, I had thought my JTR set up sounded "OK" but there were quite a few things that were off. For me, the miniDSP has been the most significant audio upgrade. I am still in disbelief on how much better my system sounds.

Here is my curve for my T12s, S8s, and two Cap S1s:
Don't you owe me a demo? ...

Anxiety is contagious, please keep yours to yourself.
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post #28860 of 39615 Old 04-22-2015, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
That last sentence is significant to me because I'm like Rob in that I don't want lots of "things" in my signal path. I didn't terminate my speaker wires at the walls (my equipment is in another room) because I wanted the signal straight from the amp with no break but your last sentence is very intriguing and makes me think about trying Dirac if it can be that transparent.
Dirac seems to make the room more transparent without adding any "color" to the signal path, which is a good thing. I think mixed phase correction is here to stay!
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