Originally Posted by Charles J P
I don't want to get into an argument. I think we've both picked out specific snippets and over focused on them. Its hard to integrate a sub. Harder than people make it sound. Hard to do it RIGHT at least. And people have different requirements and expectations. I'm not a wires or tweaks believer but I also don't think that just because two systems measure relatively flat (as good as you can get when you include a room in the equation) will sound equally good.
In my room, my Triton Ones are almost flat to 20hz. I've measured with a calibrated mic and REW. In fact, there's actually a big spike around 25Hz I need to deal with. They're far from rolled off below 35Hz. I'm not trying to justify my purchase (in fact I intend to add a subwoofer still, but I won't use it for music) but I stand by my statement and reword it to say, I don't agree if you're arguing that a bookshelf crossed over at 60hz to a subwoofer will easily sound as good as a full range speaker. If you're saying you could get both to be relatively flat from 30-500Hz you're right. That doesn't mean they'll sound equally good.
I will agree that it isn't trivial to integrate a sub or especially SUBS.
But - if you aren't strictly an analog 2 channel snob, and embrace the digital domain, DSP and advances in room correction - especially in the lower bass frequency range (they do a great job in helping 0-200Hz or so) - then subs are fantastic.
All you have to do is look at the picture of the Triton 1's. The mid/high frequency section can be thought of as a compact standmount speaker in a dedicated enclosure.
The rest of the tower is dedicated to the lower frequencies.
So what you have is a compromised design where the "SUBS" are placed in the same position as the mid/high which is not necessarily the best for sound quality over the entire frequency range.
The argument is that IF properly integrated - TWO dedicate subs with a GOOD standmount will outperform your full range towers in ANY measure of sound quality - imaging, distortion, phase coherence etc. Movies, music, whatever. It's SOUND reproduction.
Look at the trouble used to integrate the bass section of the Triton series with the mid/high section.
I'm not saying it's trivial, but employing a proper dedicated low frequency driver that can move some air (pressurise the space) is key. If you want to talk proper audiophile imaging/phase coherence, etc. - you may want to look at single full range drivers that don't employ ANY passive crossover elements at all. The Triton 1's have DSP, multiple radiators facing all different directions, passive crossovers. Good luck having perfect imaging at the PLP. Do they work? Sure they do. We all don't live in ideal acoustic spaces with treatments and dedication to all things audio. Enter room correction - but even that you can screw up during the measurement process.
I have recently purchased ANOTHER SB-2000 SVS sub for my home office system - bringing my ownership to 3 of these now. The new sub will replace my little DT Supercube II sub I've had for many years and provided great service - little 8" active + 2 8" passive radiators - great little sub for the WAF, but in room response vs. the SVS SB-2000? No contest. Despite the supercube having a 1250 watt amp and frequency response rated to 14Hz - there is NOTHING in room below about 27hz. The -3dB point as measured with REW, and the Anthem ARC microphone show usable bass to about 29Hz.
Now, that is the frequency response - it speaks nothing about the sound, distorion, impulse response etc.
I've had the little supercube ii apart - I think it's a little genius sub - but REW measurements showed the SVS SB-2000 providing usable bass below 20Hz and as a better measure THD is 8x less
. So you have QUANTITY and QUALITY. Take a look at the Seaton measurements for response, SPL and distortion.
Then we have FUNK, and others that are making their own drivers, and embracing fully active designs with full DSP. If I could fit a FUNK audio sub - I would definitely get one (As our Canadian Dollar is TANKING compared to the USD).
To suggest that subs are only for HT use is ridiculous.
I have plenty of electronic music that I enjoy that has TONS of content below 30Hz. Even some live acoustic recordings have energy where a sub provides impact that just isn't there with "full range speakers". Not to mention that if you can alleviate the mains from attempting to produce low frequency sound - it really opens up the midrange. Is this easy? No adding another crossover into a speaker is always a concern - but that's why we have DSP and filtering, and advanced crossovers and room correction and, and, and..Manipulate the bits in a digital domain - have our way with them - then return them gently into the analogue realm for our ears to appreciate.
Two or more subs positioned in a room and properly phased to blend with the mains will provide better extension and quality than full range speakers. We are talking about real live rooms with significant energy in the primary reflections, and STUFF in it.
But with the audiophile world - there will never be 100% agreement.
So it being a hobby - it's whatever you enjoy.
The only really 100% controlled environment for 2 channel listening is by putting on a set of headphones while in an anechoic chamber - enjoy that!
I'm sitting in the camp - if I can't, nor anyone else can prove claims with actual meaningful measurements, then their claims are meaningless.
Mr. Scott Wilkinson had a great interview with Mastering Engineer Bob Katz - who has STAND MOUNT Revel Speakers with 2 x JL Audio subs that are CORNER LOADED (Oh not - not corner loaded!)
Bob Katz on Audio
Yay for technology!
GE has designed products that offer tremendous value.
I'm a fan. Triton 7's and Supercentre XL up front - augmented by 2 SVS SB-2000's (one front, one side rear),
augmented by some ceiling mounted surrounds. Corrected with Anthem ARC.
Measures good at the PLP. Sounds good to me - which at the end of day is all that really matters.