GoldenEar Technologies Anticipation Thread - Page 180 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5371 of 5457 Old 05-12-2019, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Bacovish View Post
Very nice. Wish I had room for the 7’s for rear. I bought my Triton ones and the xxl a month ago and I’m truly impressed. Absolutely love my HT now. I barely visit this forum these days. That is a good thing. Lol


Thanks a lot and those Triton ones rock! I have been on the forums more than usual lately because I’ve been upgrading and my next step is 4K. It feels like I’m studying for a final exam.

I waited a long time to go atmos and it’s really worth it amazing


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post #5372 of 5457 Old 05-14-2019, 09:15 AM
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Good morning all! Looking at doing a Goldenear setup. I have an open floor plan with no ability to put rear surrounds at ear level. I am thinking of doing sps for LCR.

A installer suggested on doing only 2 atmos speakers in ceiling 650 series so it covers whole couch area and then do 7000 for rears and tilt them towards listening area. It is a slanted ceiling going from 10-14 feet.

He said he would steer away from 4 atmos speakers because with 6 speakers in ceiling the sound would be overwhelming.

I would like your thoughts on if we are selecting the right in ceiling speakers and if we are better off doing 4 Atmos and 2 rears in ceiling or 2 atmos and 2 rears.
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post #5373 of 5457 Old 05-18-2019, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean Mann View Post
Good morning all! Looking at doing a Goldenear setup. I have an open floor plan with no ability to put rear surrounds at ear level. I am thinking of doing sps for LCR.

A installer suggested on doing only 2 atmos speakers in ceiling 650 series so it covers whole couch area and then do 7000 for rears and tilt them towards listening area. It is a slanted ceiling going from 10-14 feet.

He said he would steer away from 4 atmos speakers because with 6 speakers in ceiling the sound would be overwhelming.

I would like your thoughts on if we are selecting the right in ceiling speakers and if we are better off doing 4 Atmos and 2 rears in ceiling or 2 atmos and 2 rears.
I’m not at expert and I was hoping someone else would try to answer. I would suspect that 4 atmos and two rears in ceiling would be optimal especially if you have the spacing and placement correct. I have (4) 7000 as atmos but have 50s and 7s for rears so I don’t have the issue of multiple in ceiling speakers performing rear and atmos functions. I think sandy did a demo a few years back with all invisas I would recommend going back in the thread to send that setup

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post #5374 of 5457 Old 05-19-2019, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Mann View Post
Good morning all! Looking at doing a Goldenear setup. I have an open floor plan with no ability to put rear surrounds at ear level. I am thinking of doing sps for LCR.

A installer suggested on doing only 2 atmos speakers in ceiling 650 series so it covers whole couch area and then do 7000 for rears and tilt them towards listening area. It is a slanted ceiling going from 10-14 feet.

He said he would steer away from 4 atmos speakers because with 6 speakers in ceiling the sound would be overwhelming.

I would like your thoughts on if we are selecting the right in ceiling speakers and if we are better off doing 4 Atmos and 2 rears in ceiling or 2 atmos and 2 rears.


I wouldn’t think you would need the 7000 for rears in your slanted ceiling and I’m not sure if they would work on a slope as you are wanting. I would put two 650 in the slope for rears and aim the tweeter toward listening area. Being on a slope should give the directionality needed for the rear channel effects needed. Then do two (or four) atmos speakers in the flat part of your ceiling.


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post #5375 of 5457 Old 05-29-2019, 12:20 PM
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GoldenEar plans for new center channels?

The SuperCenter series is getting long in the tooth - are there current plans to replace them with newer models?
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post #5376 of 5457 Old 06-01-2019, 11:15 AM
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The SuperCenter series is getting long in the tooth - are there current plans to replace them with newer models?

A new model was just released: the Super Center Reference; it's just a tad more than the SC XXL.
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post #5377 of 5457 Old 06-01-2019, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by HTNUT1975 View Post
A new model was just released: the Super Center Reference; it's just a tad more than the SC XXL.
Right you are. The Triton Reference and then the One.R replaced the Triton One, but the lesser Tritons were replaced with Plus models,as in Two +. So I wonder if the lesser center channels will also be replaced with Plus models, such as XL + and X +.
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post #5378 of 5457 Old 06-03-2019, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mickeyboy View Post
Right you are. The Triton Reference and then the One.R replaced the Triton One, but the lesser Tritons were replaced with Plus models,as in Two +. So I wonder if the lesser center channels will also be replaced with Plus models, such as XL + and X +.
God only knows what they'll be called. Sandy seems to use a random phrase generator for model names and iterations.
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post #5379 of 5457 Old 06-06-2019, 04:42 PM
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I may be in the market pretty soon for a new TV and speakers for my living. After my home renovation, the kitchen, dining room, and living room will all be open to each other (approximately 19'x37'x8' space). I don't want to go crazy because it's not a dedicated home theater, but I'd like this to be better than what I have in my den (definitive technology mythos 2s L/R, procenter 2000, bipole surrounds, and a Martin Logan Dynamo 700 sub hooked up to an Integra 40.1 receiver; my den is approximately 20'x15.25'x8'). I'd like a 5.1.4 system, but I'd consider 7.1.4, particularly because the surrounds will be only a few degrees behind the listening position. Rear surrounds would fit in the ceiling 4' behind the surrounds. Based on the layout, I have to get in-ceiling surrounds. I'd say my listening will be 5% music, 95% TV and movies. I've narrowed my top 2 5.1.4 systems on paper (no listening yet) to the following:


Revel Performa3 F206 towers - $3,500
C208 center speaker - $2,000
C763L for surrounds - $1,500
C363 x 4 for Atmos - $1,000
Dual SVS SB-3000 subs - $1,900
————————————————
$9,900


GoldenEar Triton One.R towers - $6,000
SuperCenter Reference center - $1,500
HTR 7000 for surrounds - $1,000
Invisia 525 x 4 for Atmos - $1,000
———————————————
$9,500


I haven't done too much research on receivers, but I'm leaning towards the Marantz SR8012 ($3k) or the Anthem MRX 1120 ($3,500).

What do you think of the choices? Should I be concerned that the built-in subs in the Tritons won't match the bass in dedicated subs? I wish GoldenEar reported +/- 3db measurements as well as continuous/peak wattage numbers. I'm not overly impressed with the bass in my parents' house from their Triton 2s. Their open floor plan is much larger than mine will be, so hopefully the bass in the One.Rs are up to the task in my space.

Thanks!

Last edited by blSwagger; 06-06-2019 at 06:45 PM.
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post #5380 of 5457 Old 06-08-2019, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by blSwagger View Post
I may be in the market pretty soon for a new TV and speakers for my living. After my home renovation, the kitchen, dining room, and living room will all be open to each other (approximately 19'x37'x8' space). I don't want to go crazy because it's not a dedicated home theater, but I'd like this to be better than what I have in my den (definitive technology mythos 2s L/R, procenter 2000, bipole surrounds, and a Martin Logan Dynamo 700 sub hooked up to an Integra 40.1 receiver; my den is approximately 20'x15.25'x8'). I'd like a 5.1.4 system, but I'd consider 7.1.4, particularly because the surrounds will be only a few degrees behind the listening position. Rear surrounds would fit in the ceiling 4' behind the surrounds. Based on the layout, I have to get in-ceiling surrounds. I'd say my listening will be 5% music, 95% TV and movies. I've narrowed my top 2 5.1.4 systems on paper (no listening yet) to the following:


Revel Performa3 F206 towers - $3,500
C208 center speaker - $2,000
C763L for surrounds - $1,500
C363 x 4 for Atmos - $1,000
Dual SVS SB-3000 subs - $1,900
————————————————
$9,900


GoldenEar Triton One.R towers - $6,000
SuperCenter Reference center - $1,500
HTR 7000 for surrounds - $1,000
Invisia 525 x 4 for Atmos - $1,000
———————————————
$9,500


I haven't done too much research on receivers, but I'm leaning towards the Marantz SR8012 ($3k) or the Anthem MRX 1120 ($3,500).

What do you think of the choices? Should I be concerned that the built-in subs in the Tritons won't match the bass in dedicated subs? I wish GoldenEar reported +/- 3db measurements as well as continuous/peak wattage numbers. I'm not overly impressed with the bass in my parents' house from their Triton 2s. Their open floor plan is much larger than mine will be, so hopefully the bass in the One.Rs are up to the task in my space.

Thanks!

This is an incredibly interesting comparison, to me (because I've looked at these models--I'm sure there are other comparable models from different brands that would also be of interest). I'd swap the Triton One.Rs for Triton 5's and subs (and, potentially--quads!). It may depend on just how much two channel music you listen to and how critically you listen to it. I have T 5's with two supersub xxl's and the combination of the two is fantastic. I'm in a similar room size as yours, but the layout is a little unorthodox compared to most on here (i.e., the TV is against the longer wall and the speakers are more spread out--I tend to favor this, even though there is only 2 feet to the wall behind the couch). The Revels are excellent as well. The T 5's are comparable to the Revel 206's (those were the two primary models I kept going back and forth on), and I don't think you can go wrong with either choice. I think the T5's may be a little bit better of a value than the 206's, but one thing to keep in mind, and this can't be emphasized enough--MSRP isn't necessarily the price you'll end up paying, if you find the right dealer. That may also be a game changer for you.



With that said, given the budget you're proposing and size of your room, here would be my choice (based on the experience of what I have now):


GoldenEar Triton Five's - $2,000
SuperCenter Reference center - $1,500
HTR 7000 for surrounds - $1,000
Invisia 525 x 4 for Atmos - $1,000
Four Seaton JS-12's: $4640.00 (that's the current price with shipping)



$10,140



Here's my argument for the Seaton's. From what I've read, snooping around on the boards, the room gain advantage you get from sealed will more than make up for their size such that having four will likely yield similar results of having a couple of Seaton Submersives, but instead of having a couple of mammoths in the room, you could spread out the smaller, room-size-friendly subs to get you an incredibly smooth response that will go down to the nether regions, with an incredibly tight, percussive, and responsive sound (they're evidently "tuned" for room gain in similar fashion as the submersive's).



As far as AVR's go, if you're not going separates, I'd go with the NAD T777 and something like an Emotiva A-300 (which would be required to power an additional two channels to get you 9 channels for atmos). That would be a little less than 3k (retail), but you'd get Dirac (a superior room correction system)--and again, you can get the T777 for less than retail with the right authorized dealer. With four subs, I'd also consider adding a miniDSP 2x4 HD for sub integration. Ok, done. Perfect system.
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post #5381 of 5457 Old 06-08-2019, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by HTNUT1975 View Post
This is an incredibly interesting comparison, to me (because I've looked at these models--I'm sure there are other comparable models from different brands that would also be of interest). I'd swap the Triton One.Rs for Triton 5's and [Seaton js-12] subs (and, potentially--quads!). It may depend on just how much two channel music you listen to and how critically you listen to it.


The T 5's are comparable to the Revel 206's (those were the two primary models I kept going back and forth on), and I don't think you can go wrong with either choice.
If I go with GoldenEar, I'd probably stick with the One.R towers because of their superior drivers and tweeters compared to the rest of the line (except the T Reference, of course). How much auditioning did you do before choosing the T 5's over the Revel F206's?

I don't really listen to music critically. I'm more interested in home theater listening. Off-axis response is important to me because of the size of the room. In addition to sounding amazing* while sitting in the main listening position, I want the system to sound good from the kitchen and dining room as well.

I'm not too concerned about the bass from the T One.R's. I know independent dual subs would be better, but so long as the bass can match or exceed the single ML Dynamo 700 I have in my den (300 watts, 10"), I'll be happy.


*By amazing, I mean I want to be blown away. The point of spending this kind of money on surround sound is to make me smile every time I turn my system on.

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post #5382 of 5457 Old 06-08-2019, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by blSwagger View Post
If I go with GoldenEar, I'd probably stick with the One.R towers because of their superior drivers and tweeters compared to the rest of the line (except the T Reference, of course). How much auditioning did you do before choosing the T 5's over the Revel F206's?

I don't really listen to music critically. I'm more interested in home theater listening. Off-axis response is important to me because of the size of the room. In addition to sounding amazing* while sitting in the main listening position, I want the system to sound good from the kitchen and dining room as well.

I'm not too concerned about the bass from the T One.R's. I know independent dual subs would be better, but so long as the bass can match or exceed the single ML Dynamo 700 I have in my den (300 watts, 10"), I'll be happy.


*By amazing, I mean I want to be blown away. The point of spending this kind of money on surround sound is to make me smile every time I turn my system on.
The T5’s are the more updated design compared to the original T2’s (which I think you mentioned your father had those). I only mentioned them because you are considering the f206’s and I consider them on par with those. I spent several hours comparing the f206 to the T5’s (as it turns out, the revel MSRP is considerably different from my dealer’s price, which made them economically closer to the T5’s than one might first think). I took a few trips to the dealer and spent a lot of time listening to both (as I figured my pick for the towers would dictate my choice for the rest of the surround system). At first, I didn’t think there was much comparison—the T5’s were clearly the better. But on my next trip, I asked the dealer to position both speakers next to each other to ensure less room interference. IMHO, it was a wash. I think the T5’s played a tad forward with voice (ie, it seemed like the voice of a singer floated spatially in the middle of the two towers, more distinctly) I tended to favor that at he time. Other than that, I loved both.

While it may be true that the drivers in the new reference line are better, I don’t think that would be as obvious with home theater. In fact, I would take the T5’s and the subs I mentioned above (or mine, or several SB3000’s) any day with home theater (and I’d be very interested to compare the t5’s and carefully integrated subs with music—especially with several).

If you’re worried about off-axis response, the several integrated subs will make a much, much bigger difference in terms of evenly filling out the surround sound of the room. Bass is the strangest, most bizarre phenomenon in HT. It can radically differ in sound from one listening position to the other (in one seat, even with a high-end sub, the bass might sound like a boomy, cheap HT in a box sub, and in another, completely anemic); and, it affects every single speaker in the HT system. It will literally change the sound of each speaker—that’s why the subs are by far the most important component.

I’m not a “bass head,” mind you. I’m not saying this because I love the booms of special effects. I don’t even particularly care all that much about the floor or couch shaking. I’m talking about precision and power that will compel satisfaction in both music and movies.
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post #5383 of 5457 Old 06-11-2019, 11:50 AM
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*By amazing, I mean I want to be blown away. The point of spending this kind of money on surround sound is to make me smile every time I turn my system on.

That was my dream a few months ago.


Make sure you can return them for full value if they don't couple with your room. I have a two month old set of R'1s and a R Center. The R'1s have a 20 db rise in my room around 20-40 hz. That peak almost totally drowns out the midrange to such an extent the R Center vocals often cannot be heard and when they can they sound very thin.



I've spend 100's of hours moving speakers, rebalancing, taking measurements and starting again, I rotated my setup 90 degrees, spent hours over the weekend hooking them up to a new receiver, put a $1000 bucks of additional bass traps in the room to no avail.


The bass knob adjusts the entire range up to 80 (or some say 100) so it has no impact in mid clarity because dropping the 20-40 HZ spike drops most of the midrange too.



After this battle I have retired the R'1s and center and have put my 12 year old speakers back in place again and am once again enjoying, or as you would say smiling when I play my home theater.



There are some rooms where the high powered bass units in these units are an extreme detriment. Mine is one.



I hope they play nice in your room.
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post #5384 of 5457 Old 06-11-2019, 06:39 PM
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That was my dream a few months ago.


Make sure you can return them for full value if they don't couple with your room. I have a two month old set of R'1s and a R Center. The R'1s have a 20 db rise in my room around 20-40 hz. That peak almost totally drowns out the midrange to such an extent the R Center vocals often cannot be heard and when they can they sound very thin.



I've spend 100's of hours moving speakers, rebalancing, taking measurements and starting again, I rotated my setup 90 degrees, spent hours over the weekend hooking them up to a new receiver, put a $1000 bucks of additional bass traps in the room to no avail.


The bass knob adjusts the entire range up to 80 (or some say 100) so it has no impact in mid clarity because dropping the 20-40 HZ spike drops most of the midrange too.



After this battle I have retired the R'1s and center and have put my 12 year old speakers back in place again and am once again enjoying, or as you would say smiling when I play my home theater.



There are some rooms where the high powered bass units in these units are an extreme detriment. Mine is one.



I hope they play nice in your room.


Have you tried the minidsp 2 x 4 HD? Do you have measurements you can post?


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post #5385 of 5457 Old 06-12-2019, 08:59 AM
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Have you tried the minidsp 2 x 4 HD? Do you have measurements you can post?


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Will do soon my friend, what you state about the T5's and a few subs makes so much sense now.
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post #5386 of 5457 Old 06-12-2019, 09:24 AM
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Will do soon my friend, what you state about the T5's and a few subs makes so much sense now.


What was his advice on the t5’s? I’m looking at those right now


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post #5387 of 5457 Old 06-12-2019, 07:17 PM
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Will do soon my friend, what you state about the T5's and a few subs makes so much sense now.

Excellent! I still think there may be some hope in resolving the issues you're having. There are a lot of folks on this board who have degrees-worth of experience and may be able to iron out the problems. The minidsp would give you the ability to potential tame/eliminate some of those peaks, which may affect any nulls you're having. Look forward to hearing more about the project. Also, I sent you a pm last night about the center channel.
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post #5388 of 5457 Old 06-13-2019, 11:33 AM
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Excellent! I still think there may be some hope in resolving the issues you're having. There are a lot of folks on this board who have degrees-worth of experience and may be able to iron out the problems. The minidsp would give you the ability to potential tame/eliminate some of those peaks, which may affect any nulls you're having. Look forward to hearing more about the project. Also, I sent you a pm last night about the center channel.

I don't think the minidsp will work as I am trying to dial in HT and have about 9 devices that use HDMI, also I do not have the RCA feeds into the R1's as that just made things worse.



Here is the best curve possible through placement which graphically represents why they sound like a AM radio with a huge subwoofer bombing over top of the what can be heard from the mid-range.


The second curve is from last night with my old speakers.
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post #5389 of 5457 Old 06-13-2019, 11:36 AM
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What was his advice on the t5’s? I’m looking at those right now


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I don't want to put words in someones mouth but as I read it T5's and two independent subs do not force you to place a powered tower with sub in a less than optimal place as I am learning the hard way.
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post #5390 of 5457 Old 06-13-2019, 05:32 PM
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I don't think the minidsp will work as I am trying to dial in HT and have about 9 devices that use HDMI, also I do not have the RCA feeds into the R1's as that just made things worse.



Here is the best curve possible through placement which graphically represents why they sound like a AM radio with a huge subwoofer bombing over top of the what can be heard from the mid-range.


The second curve is from last night with my old speakers.

What electronics are you using for calibration right now? The minidsp would be applied just to the subs in the Tritons after calibration. There, you can adjust the eq. of the subs to take out much of the peak.
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post #5391 of 5457 Old 06-14-2019, 07:37 AM
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I don't want to put words in someones mouth but as I read it T5's and two independent subs do not force you to place a powered tower with sub in a less than optimal place as I am learning the hard way.


Thanks, that makes sense. Never understood putting subs in the main speakers but I’m no expert


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post #5392 of 5457 Old 06-14-2019, 10:22 AM
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What electronics are you using for calibration right now? The minidsp would be applied just to the subs in the Tritons after calibration. There, you can adjust the eq. of the subs to take out much of the peak.

A SMS-1, a bit old school but works well, the advantage is you can move speakers and things and look over at the TV screen in real time and see how it effects the curves as it constantly sweeps white noise out of whatever speakers you chose tell you tell it to stop.


I really appreciate you trying to aid me with my issue, Question, am I correct in assuming the minidsp would go into the LFE line between speaker and receiver after readings and computer programing?
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post #5393 of 5457 Old 06-14-2019, 07:13 PM
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A SMS-1, a bit old school but works well, the advantage is you can move speakers and things and look over at the TV screen in real time and see how it effects the curves as it constantly sweeps white noise out of whatever speakers you chose tell you tell it to stop.


I really appreciate you trying to aid me with my issue, Question, am I correct in assuming the minidsp would go into the LFE line between speaker and receiver after readings and computer programing?

No problem!

The LFE RCA-type connection line would go to the minidsp 2 x 4 hd, and from there, to the T1R's LFE/RCA input on the back.

One thing I was a little confused about from a previous post of yours is that you stated you weren't feeding the Triton's the LFE input. I'm assuming you were talking about the subwoofer/LFE RCA out FROM the electronics (AVR or Processor) TO the LFE input on the Tritons?

You need to feed that into the T1's LFE input. Then, from your processor, set the crossovers for the rest of your speakers (probably start out at 80hz, unless you have very small surround speaakers). You can set the Tritons as full range (or "large," if that setting is available, or if that is what your processor calls it). Is that how you were operating things? The "subs" in those Tritons are potent, but they can be tamed, just like any subwoofer. I apologize if you already know this, but I had to start somewhere. Make sure the processor isn't set at "double-bass" or some such setting.

Even if your subwoofer/LFE out from your processor is fed into the LFE input of the Triton, that output from the processor will be not be active during two-channel music, if you set your T1's to "large" or "full range". During movie playback, the processor will send the signals below 80hz, and it will send the LFE signal to the T1's subs. Again, apologies if you know this already.
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post #5394 of 5457 Old 06-15-2019, 12:01 PM
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No problem!

The LFE RCA-type connection line would go to the minidsp 2 x 4 hd, and from there, to the T1R's LFE/RCA input on the back.

One thing I was a little confused about from a previous post of yours is that you stated you weren't feeding the Triton's the LFE input. I'm assuming you were talking about the subwoofer/LFE RCA out FROM the electronics (AVR or Processor) TO the LFE input on the Tritons?



No, Tried the LFE lines into the R1's, That made everything worse. What you are seeing in the curve loses the last bit of that midrange with the LFE's. The bass knobs in that curve are also at about 15 to 20%, at about 9 O'Clock.. Since I must run speaker wire to them them there is no way to lower the hump 20db at 20-40HZ since the LFE's are not connected, If I was to use the minidsps and re connect the LFE, I would have to raise 32 to 100 hz to fill in the void, Much of that fill in would be 15 to 20 db's of forced rise in the R1's amps across a wide range. Such a rise would be dangerous to the R1's amps and as general rule I have often read lower the dips but don't jack up dips past a few db's as it's ineffective. I fear I would void my warranty. If I was closer to flat I think your idea would be the solution. Am I missing anything or off in my thoughts?





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You can set the Tritons as full range (or "large," if that setting is available, or if that is what your processor calls it). Is that how you were operating things? The "subs" in those Tritons are potent, but they can be tamed, just like any subwoofer.

That is what I did with the LFE when it made things worse as it added to the 20 db hump around 20 - 40HZ coming from just the speaker wires. (with total understanding that doing it with a few minidsps would be a bit different but still have the concerns above in the first paragraph).





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Even if your subwoofer/LFE out from your processor is fed into the LFE input of the Triton, that output from the processor will be not be active during two-channel music, if you set your T1's to "large" or "full range". During movie playback, the processor will send the signals below 80hz, and it will send the LFE signal to the T1's subs.

Oh yea! That is how I had them set up before I remove the LFE cable that was adding to the issue. That's the way I ran (and am running) my old speakers, Know many people that use their 5.1 settings on 2 channel music, I'm a bit of a purist and only run 2 channel in 2 channel direct mode. I think we are in the same camp on this my friend. (Though I have a few times ran through the 5.1 and 7.1 sound fields on 2 channel music just to see what it sounds like as I expect we all have.)


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I apologize if you already know this, but I had to start somewhere. Make sure the processor isn't set at "double-bass" or some such setting.
Again, apologies if you know this already.

Please buddy, Never apologize for sharing info, yes, these are things I am aware off BUT what if I was NOT AWARE or just missed the obvious. Heck, I wish I had missed the double bass setting, One change in setting and I would likely be close and just be doing the fine tuning and then sending you a gift card for some fancy restaurant in a moment of pure bliss (after a short victory dance around the Theater Room).



I think I put this into my opening post on the issue but might not. To eliminate receiver issues such as double bass I reset mine to factory defaults. No change, same issue, then, to make sure something was not funky with the amp or settings, (thinking it would be strange for that to happen right between a speaker upgrade but still wanting to rule out all options, I swapped to a different receiver in the setup, dialed it all in, same results, almost the exact same curve, mid-range under water, just mostly low sonic and subsonic thumps and some high pitched jingle. (Must say I can spot it's a very interesting and unique tweeter.)


I;m still of the mind that due to my narrow room those two 1,200 watt subs are so corner loaded the only thing i can think of is sawing the speakers in half to relocate the subs (joking of course).



I sure appreciate all this and I like your can do attitude "but they can be tamed, just like any subwoofer"! Yes! Seems like we are eliminating a fair amount of possible causes , I await your next thoughts or instructions buddy, you are one of the good ones.
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post #5395 of 5457 Old 06-15-2019, 12:53 PM
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No, Tried the LFE lines into the R1's, That made everything worse. What you are seeing in the curve loses the last bit of that midrange with the LFE's. The bass knobs in that curve are also at about 15 to 20%, at about 9 O'Clock.. Since I must run speaker wire to them them there is no way to lower the hump 20db at 20-40HZ since the LFE's are not connected, If I was to use the minidsps and re connect the LFE, I would have to raise 32 to 100 hz to fill in the void, Much of that fill in would be 15 to 20 db's of forced rise in the R1's amps across a wide range. Such a rise would be dangerous to the R1's amps and as general rule I have often read lower the dips but don't jack up dips past a few db's as it's ineffective. I fear I would void my warranty. If I was closer to flat I think your idea would be the solution. Am I missing anything or off in my thoughts?

Ok, the one thing I don't quite understand is how the LFE input would change things in measurements on 2 channel. When you're measuring, are you only measuring the two towers together? Is it set at 2 channel when you measure (instead of 2.1)? If so, the LFE channel wouldn't matter (because no signal would be sent to that input, right?). The one thing that I didn't fully consider with the minidsp 2x4 is that if you had the towers set to large/full range, then the minidsp wouldn't affect them, but it would affect the subs in the towers for the other speakers. Also, you would only need one minidsp 2x4 (because it has two inputs and outputs).

It may end up being the case that the room is just too small, along with its shape (squared-shape room or rectangular?)--I'm not for sure. [Ok—honestly, I don’t believe that—I think there’s a way to fix it, but I unfortunately don’t have access to the room—I do think different electronics may be necessary, however.]

I also don't know much about the calibration system you have (though, I see that it was sold on outlaw audio at one time). What kind of subs are you using with your older system, and what kind of avr/processor are you using? One thing to keep in mind, were you able to tame the 20-40hz region—that may affect the deep null you’re seeing from 40ish to 100ish (because less frequency cancelation possibilities). Another thing to keep in mind, if there’s any vibration with the floor or any rattling, that can affect the measurement (which is something I didn’t realize for quite some time—I kept thinking my measurements from about 100hz to 200 was completely wonky because of the room layout, but it had a lot to do with vibration of the floor).
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post #5396 of 5457 Old 06-17-2019, 12:46 PM
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Ok, the one thing I don't quite understand is how the LFE input would change things in measurements on 2 channel. When you're measuring, are you only measuring the two towers together? Is it set at 2 channel when you measure (instead of 2.1)? If so, the LFE channel wouldn't matter (because no signal would be sent to that input, right?).
Correct, That is the way I had them, set up, Direct for 2 channel music, sent only to the front L and R. With the LFE feed connected the (LFE) signal only triggers in 5.1/7.1. Since I am trying to control the low end in HT the LFE signal made things much worse in HT. The measurement you see in the first thumbnail is only the two R1's measured running on pure speaker wire. Sorry if I am confusing you, so many factors. That's the major reason I wonder if the bass can be tamed since I am running a 20 db hump at 20-40 with just speaker wire.

[quote=HTNUT1975;58186328] Also, you would only need one minidsp 2x4 (because it has two inputs and outputs).


That's nice to know, is the anything like the minidsp with speaker wire outputs, I've never seen such a thing but it seems that would do the trick.

[QUOTE=HTNUT1975;58186328]
It may end up being the case that the room is just too small, along with its shape (squared-shape room or rectangular?)--I'm not for sure. [Ok—honestly, I don’t believe that—I think there’s a way to fix it, but I unfortunately don’t have access to the room—I do think different electronics may be necessary, however.]
It is a problematic room, I did seek advice as that worried me before purchase. The room is 10 x 21, I have read that a room twice as long as wide is about as bad as a square room and 10 x 21 is close to that.

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have access to the room—I do think different electronics may be necessary, however.]
I also don't know much about the calibration system you have (though, I see that it was sold on outlaw audio at one time). What kind of subs are you using with your older system, and what kind of avr/processor are you using? One thing to keep in mind, were you able to tame the 20-40hz region—that may affect the deep null you’re seeing from 40ish to 100ish (because less frequency cancelation possibilities). Another thing to keep in mind, if there’s any vibration with the floor or any rattling, that can affect the measurement (which is something I didn’t realize for quite some time—I kept thinking my measurements from about 100hz to 200 was completely wonky because of the room layout, but it had a lot to do with vibration of the floor).


Outlaw just relabeled it, It was made by Velodyne before they crashed out of the market, it was incorporated internally in their higher end subs.
The sub is a JL F113, The receiver in place now is a Integra 8.8. I'm in the basement so no floor issues to speak of, (Heavy carpet) did have a side wall that resonated a bit (much like your floor) but I fixed that with the SMS-1 by dropping the F113 like a rock at 20 HZ (the room otherwise leaves the curve flat to about 15 HZ through room reinforcement.) This and my old subs were mainly tamed by placement and then a bit of fine tuning with the SMS-1.
I've been able to tame 4 stand alone subs in the room through the same method, location then fine tuning the curve. Powerful subs tend to want to be behind the listener in my room, my first, under 500 watts did well in the front right corner pulled out from the walls a foot or two.



The calibration unit is simple, the traditional way it works is it jacks in of the receiver LFE sub out, then jacks out to the powered sub. So Receiver or pre amp to SMS-1 to powered sub. It then hooks to the TV through a unused input (say AUX) and also the TV monitor and pups the test tones through the sub and mains (or as you would say 2.1 with only the .1 being changed by the unit. Basically you are blending the sub to fit with the mains)



One then switch's to aux,, sets it to stereo, tells the SMS to start generating a test sweeps. The stereo Front's then show on the TV sweep but are not affected by calibration. only the powered sub is, in my case the JL. Then you use the on screen sliders to adjust the Q, Frequency and output level of the powered sub). It's basically a parametric equalizer that can equalize the signal anywhere between 15 and 100 HZ.


Since my R2's are showing a 20-40 HZ 20 db hump with just speaker wires, hooking up the LFE to the R1's cannot remove that hump, the most I could do is jack up the void between 40 and 100 HZ to try to get that area flat but fear that huge increase in input to the R1 subs is not going to be good for the built in amps.


So the question I guess I have for you is what equipment are you thinking (and is there something like the minidsp with speaker wire outs?)


KEEP IN MIND THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING OTHER THAN A TIP FOR PEOPLE THAT STILL HAVE A SMS-1(For whatever it worth I have found that using the SMS-1 just to read the room, as it's real time on the TV does help in positioning speakers, it does not affect other speakers but say you want to find the flattest spot for surrounds. Just turn the other speakers off, then turn to all channel stereo) so only the surrounds are active and start moving them while glancing at the change of the curve on the TV and, find the flattest spot, then fire all the speakers back up and do the final adjustment by ear)
I do see as I read through the thread and other sources that this has been a issue for many, I do wonder it any resolved it.



Thanks for all the help so far my friend, i realize there is a wall here unless you can get hands on in my HT room. Don't feel obligated to spend endless hours on this (As my R1's sit in the back of my room unhooked and mocking me every time I enter the room.)


PS: Thought you had a heck of a eye for detail, we used to be in the same profession.
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First off I’m a GE dealer and have experienced most of thier products.

IF the space is shared (living area and HT) the powered towers are great choices foe ease of installation.

T5’s with subs are also a great choice if you have the room and budget.

It is a compromise of sorts. I prefer T5 with smaller rooms and T2+, T1r (not listened to the TRef) in larger rooms.

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First off I’m a GE dealer and have experienced most of thier products.

IF the space is shared (living area and HT) the powered towers are great choices foe ease of installation.

T5’s with subs are also a great choice if you have the room and budget.

It is a compromise of sorts. I prefer T5 with smaller rooms and T2+, T1r (not listened to the TRef) in larger rooms.
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post #5399 of 5457 Old 06-23-2019, 10:44 AM
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That's the major reason I wonder if the bass can be tamed since I am running a 20 db hump at 20-40 with just speaker wire.

From what I’m reading, you already know this, but I want to make sure there’s clarity on my part. Running a 20db hump at 20-40 “with just speaker wire” doesn’t mean you’re getting any less bass or that the subs in those towers are getting less signal in their respective frequency range (it just means that the subs aren’t playing their range for the other speaker in the surround system, since, after all, you’re not measuring those speakers in the tests). So, if you were to measure the speakers with the LFE signal hot going into the LFE input, all you would be doing is playing those subs in their respective frequency range for the surrounds or center speaker (i.e., if you were to measure the center speaker frequency range with a cross at 80hz, then the subs would come in play below 80hz for that center channel only—but that doesn’t mean they’re playing a hotter signal than just the speaker wire alone into the two towers when measuring). From what you wrote earlier, you seem to know this, but I wanted to clarify because of the “just [i.e., only] speaker wire” comment. Now, everything I have written has been under the assumption that the subs in the T1's were the only ones in the equation, so please read my responses prior to this and this response as if that were the case (so that I'm not being misunderstood). In other words, I have been assuming you were not using an additional sub with the T1's in your measurement.

The JL F113 is an awesome sub—and it’s beautiful. Nice. We have a similarly sized room, but mine is set up such that the TV is mounted on the long wall (so it would be on the 20 ft side of your room); that way, I’m able to spread the towers out considerably, for a “wider space” sound (this is a subjective description and I’m too lazy to look up what that means, if it means anything at all--I believe it is that the sound stage seems wider).

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Since my R2's are showing a 20-40 HZ 20 db hump with just speaker wires, hooking up the LFE to the R1's cannot remove that hump, the most I could do is jack up the void between 40 and 100 HZ to try to get that area flat but fear that huge increase in input to the R1 subs is not going to be good for the built in amps.
Have you tried running the system in 2.1 without the JL sub, crossing at 80zh, 60hz, 40hz, etc., LFE RCA input connected, and running the towers in “small” mode? This would take them out of full range and allow you to see how the SMS-1 can tame the subs in the towers. From your description, you haven’t calibrated the subs in the towers at all when you measure because you’re measuring in 2.0 mode (i.e., the towers are in full range mode—I’ve been assuming your JL sub is out of the equation when you’ve done measurements with the GE towers). In an anechoic chamber, this isn’t the ideal solution for running the towers, because, as Sandy has stated, the finely-tuned crossover embedded in the towers running at full range is going to naturally be superior to the simple tuning from crossovers that occur with external electronics. With that said, trying this experiment may give you enough faith to continue with the T1’s with, perhaps, using different electronics.

Based on the images you provided, your SMS-1 should be able to tame some of those peaks (which may affect some of the nulls); but if you’ve set the towers at full range, the SMS-1 can’t do anything for the range in question (20-40) with the towers. If you’re using the JL with the towers in full range, then that isn’t true 2.0 (and there could be something like double-bass going on, phase issues which cause the null, crossover slopes which cause phase issue problems between the subs in the towers and the JL, etc., if you're measuring with the JL sub as well). If you do use the JL with those towers, you will likely need to get different or additional electronics for a couple of reasons (one of which is that you can't calibrate the towers with the SMS-1 at all when in full range).


You asked if minidsp has other devices that can use just speaker wire. They actually have a device that can use every input (https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a); there’s a lengthy and very active thread under the processor/avr category on this forum discussing this device with folks who’ve been doing this a very long time, and who, for whatever reason, seem to really enjoy helping out people with technical problems—they’re likely retired engineers or something of the like, but they’re good people. You can use a free computer program called REW (see https://www.roomeqwizard.com/) that seems to be the go-to on the boards here and other places, along with a minidsp mic—this program has the real time measurement capabilities that can give you a rough guestimate for speaker placement, like the SMS-1. (see https://www.minidsp.com/products/aco...urement/umik-1). The mic used also happens to be compatible with Dirac, no matter what electronics you’re using.





Quote:
So the question I guess I have for you is what equipment are you thinking (and is there something like the minidsp with speaker wire outs?)


This really depends on your budget (and whether you enjoy the process). With AVR’s, IMHO, I think you could likely get superior results with different electronics—and I mean dramatically better results. From my rather limited experience, I favor Dirac as the calibration system software. If I were in your shoes right now, I’d probably get a NAD T777 with a minidsp 2x4HD or a Lexicon RV-6 or RV-9, and work with four subs (i.e., the two from the new GE T1’s and two additional smaller subs—either an additional JL, or sell the JL and get two matching subs for the same price you sold the JL for). The Lexicon has the advantage of its Logic 7 surround system when only a 2 channel source is involved (and, evidently, Logic 7 works with surround as well, which a lot of folk like). It also may have a little bit better build quality (as its warranty is 5 years instead the 2 year warranty that comes with the NAD). The weakness, however, is that the crossovers of the Lexicon are limited—you can only set a universal crossover for the surround system and then the speakers above (e.g., if you set your crossover at 80 for the center speaker, that would apply to every speaker in your surround system, except atmos speakers above, which would have their own separate universal crossover). Also, the crossover curve is at 12db per octave, with the Lexicon, I believe. With the NAD, you can set individual crossovers for every single speaker and you have what many consider a better crossover slope (i.e., a more aggressive 24db). [With that said, I think the NAD is a much better value and may yield better calibration results because of the above-mentioned factors.]
With the T777 or RV-9, you wouldn’t be sacrificing power at all in changing your setup, and you’d have access to Dirac for all channels used (along with Atmos capability, were you to ever get the itch to upgrade). [Also, don’t trust MSRP of those devices, as you can get considerable discounts from good dealers, though, the T777 going to likely be half the price of the RV-9 for what may be better calibration results.]


The mini dsp along with the above-mentioned AVR’s would allow you to adjust multiple subs properly, but there is one caveat--Dirac is coming out with new software upgrades for subwoofer integration (their “bass modules”), and I don’t believe the current AVR’s on the market will be able to fully take advantage of that (see https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...management-ces ). I think the idea here is to simply integration (and perhaps, enable better integration). But I do believe there will be some new devices coming out relatively soon, which would allow the use of the Dirac bass module. With all that said, try calibrating the towers the way I mentioned, above, without the JL being in the equation, and see what the results are. I don’t think they were ever calibrated in the first place.


And, thanks for the compliment! You’re retired and living the good life now? 😊
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post #5400 of 5457 Old 06-24-2019, 02:11 PM
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From what I’m reading, you already know this, but I want to make sure there’s clarity on my part. Running a 20db hump at 20-40 “with just speaker wire” doesn’t mean you’re getting any less bass or that the subs in those towers are getting less signal in their respective frequency range (it just means that the subs aren’t playing their range for the other speaker in the surround system, since, after all, you’re not measuring those speakers in the tests). So, if you were to measure the speakers with the LFE signal hot going into the LFE input, all you would be doing is playing those subs in their respective frequency range for the surrounds or center speaker (i.e., if you were to measure the center speaker frequency range with a cross at 80hz, then the subs would come in play below 80hz for that center channel only—but that doesn’t mean they’re playing a hotter signal than just the speaker wire alone into the two towers when measuring). From what you wrote earlier, you seem to know this, but I wanted to clarify because of the “just [i.e., only] speaker wire” comment. Now, everything I have written has been under the assumption that the subs in the T1's were the only ones in the equation, so please read my responses prior to this and this response as if that were the case (so that I'm not being misunderstood). In other words, I have been assuming you were not using an additional sub with the T1's in your measurement.
LIGHT BULB GOES OFF! You nailed it, I thought we seemed to be dancing out of step but could not figure out why, My bad, I should have used the model/brand or some other descriptor than "Sub" Most of the time I thought you were speaking of the F113 which I now see I did not mention. Yes, It's just the R1's in the graph. Now the minidsp recommendation, (which I will fake with the SMS-1 first to see if I get good results) makes total sense.
Yes, As you say below, BINGO, Treat the R1's sub units as separate entities, cut them somewhere between 40-100, speaker wire no longer causes a huge hump, jack in the LFE with a minidsp (or SMS-1 for trial) and refeed the sub with a processed feed. That should result in nothing but cuts in low end freq, no more worries about the R1's amps, heck, they should last longer with the cuts than ran normally I would think.. Well worth a try, will give it a show this weekend.

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The JL F113 is an awesome sub—and it’s beautiful. Nice. We have a similarly sized room, but mine is set up such that the TV is mounted on the long wall (so it would be on the 20 ft side of your room); that way, I’m able to spread the towers out considerably, for a “wider space” sound (this is a subjective description and I’m too lazy to look up what that means, if it means anything at all--I believe it is that the sound stage seems wider).

Thanks, I love the sub, would go with two 112's now I think due to the room, it was a monster getting dialed in mostly due to weight. The multi sub model and talk of the benefits were just firing up when i bought it.



I did spin the room, it's not well suited for that but as a test, did have a much wider soundstage but the hump was worse.

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Have you tried running the system in 2.1 without the JL sub, crossing at 80zh, 60hz, 40hz, etc., LFE RCA input connected, and running the towers in “small” mode? This would take them out of full range and allow you to see how the SMS-1 can tame the subs in the towers. From your description, you haven’t calibrated the subs in the towers at all when you measure because you’re measuring in 2.0 mode (i.e., the towers are in full range mode—I’ve been assuming your JL sub is out of the equation when you’ve done measurements with the GE towers). In an anechoic chamber, this isn’t the ideal solution for running the towers, because, as Sandy has stated, the finely-tuned crossover embedded in the towers running at full range is going to naturally be superior to the simple tuning from crossovers that occur with external electronics. With that said, trying this experiment may give you enough faith to continue with the T1’s with, perhaps, using different electronics.

I will very soon my friend. You are correct, I never processed the R! sub signal but may have sounded like I had if I used the word sub as I did cut the R1's and send the LFE to the F113, never got a decent blend.(Hence my endless comments about why own them if I cut at 100 and send the signal to the F113 (when you likely were talking about sending the signal to the R1's.


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Originally Posted by HTNUT1975 View Post
Based on the images you provided, your SMS-1 should be able to tame some of those peaks (which may affect some of the nulls); but if you’ve set the towers at full range, the SMS-1 can’t do anything for the range in question (20-40) with the towers. If you’re using the JL with the towers in full range, then that isn’t true 2.0 (and there could be something like double-bass going on, phase issues which cause the null, crossover slopes which cause phase issue problems between the subs in the towers and the JL, etc., if you're measuring with the JL sub as well). If you do use the JL with those towers, you will likely need to get different or additional electronics for a couple of reasons (one of which is that you can't calibrate the towers with the SMS-1 at all when in full range).

Fully following you. (no double bass but yes, phase, room and all that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTNUT1975 View Post
You asked if minidsp has other devices that can use just speaker wire. They actually have a device that can use every input (https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a); there’s a lengthy and very active thread under the processor/avr category on this forum discussing this device with folks who’ve been doing this a very long time, and who, for whatever reason, seem to really enjoy helping out people with technical problems—they’re likely retired engineers or something of the like, but they’re good people. You can use a free computer program called REW (see https://www.roomeqwizard.com/) that seems to be the go-to on the boards here and other places, along with a minidsp mic—this program has the real time measurement capabilities that can give you a rough guestimate for speaker placement, like the SMS-1. (see https://www.minidsp.com/products/aco...urement/umik-1). The mic used also happens to be compatible with Dirac, no matter what electronics you’re using.

Thanks, Will digest the above for a few days as I read the links, Dirac I have noticed has been mentioned quite often in taming R1's (I think because you can box in part of the frequency to tame and leave the high end alone. )




Quote:
Originally Posted by HTNUT1975 View Post

This really depends on your budget (and whether you enjoy the process). With AVR’s, IMHO, I think you could likely get superior results with different electronics—and I mean dramatically better results. From my rather limited experience, I favor Dirac as the calibration system software. If I were in your shoes right now, I’d probably get a NAD T777 with a minidsp 2x4HD or a Lexicon RV-6 or RV-9, and work with four subs (i.e., the two from the new GE T1’s and two additional smaller subs—either an additional JL, or sell the JL and get two matching subs for the same price you sold the JL for). The Lexicon has the advantage of its Logic 7 surround system when only a 2 channel source is involved (and, evidently, Logic 7 works with surround as well, which a lot of folk like). It also may have a little bit better build quality (as its warranty is 5 years instead the 2 year warranty that comes with the NAD). The weakness, however, is that the crossovers of the Lexicon are limited—you can only set a universal crossover for the surround system and then the speakers above (e.g., if you set your crossover at 80 for the center speaker, that would apply to every speaker in your surround system, except atmos speakers above, which would have their own separate universal crossover). Also, the crossover curve is at 12db per octave, with the Lexicon, I believe. With the NAD, you can set individual crossovers for every single speaker and you have what many consider a better crossover slope (i.e., a more aggressive 24db). [With that said, I think the NAD is a much better value and may yield better calibration results because of the above-mentioned factors.]
With the T777 or RV-9, you wouldn’t be sacrificing power at all in changing your setup, and you’d have access to Dirac for all channels used (along with Atmos capability, were you to ever get the itch to upgrade). [Also, don’t trust MSRP of those devices, as you can get considerable discounts from good dealers, though, the T777 going to likely be half the price of the RV-9 for what may be better calibration results.]
We shall see where the weekend experiment takes me, printing this out to study. I do have the ability to set individual cross overs for all speakers with the 8.8's which I do find very necessary with any HT I have had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTNUT1975 View Post
The mini dsp along with the above-mentioned AVR’s would allow you to adjust multiple subs properly, but there is one caveat--Dirac is coming out with new software upgrades for subwoofer integration (their “bass modules”), and I don’t believe the current AVR’s on the market will be able to fully take advantage of that (see https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...management-ces ). I think the idea here is to simply integration (and perhaps, enable better integration). But I do believe there will be some new devices coming out relatively soon, which would allow the use of the Dirac bass module. With all that said, try calibrating the towers the way I mentioned, above, without the JL being in the equation, and see what the results are. I don’t think they were ever calibrated in the first place.

Thanks for the info, Good to know. Will start over with the normal methods which will start with just the R1's and if that all works out adding in the center and then the rears. the stand alone sub is always last in the chain, if needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTNUT1975 View Post
And, thanks for the compliment! You’re retired and living the good life now? 😊

I wish Buddy, I used to wear 4 hats and needed to take it down to three. I'm inactive, just need to pay full dues and 10 hours of CLE if I decide to get back in the game.
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