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post #5401 of 5412 Old 06-24-2019, 04:44 PM
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LIGHT BULB GOES OFF! You nailed it, I thought we seemed to be dancing out of step but could not figure out why, My bad, I should have used the model/brand or some other descriptor than "Sub" Most of the time I thought you were speaking of the F113 which I now see I did not mention. Yes, It's just the R1's in the graph. Now the minidsp recommendation, (which I will fake with the SMS-1 first to see if I get good results) makes total sense.
Yes, As you say below, BINGO, Treat the R1's sub units as separate entities, cut them somewhere between 40-100, speaker wire no longer causes a huge hump, jack in the LFE with a minidsp (or SMS-1 for trial) and refeed the sub with a processed feed. That should result in nothing but cuts in low end freq, no more worries about the R1's amps, heck, they should last longer with the cuts than ran normally I would think.. Well worth a try, will give it a show this weekend.




Thanks, I love the sub, would go with two 112's now I think due to the room, it was a monster getting dialed in mostly due to weight. The multi sub model and talk of the benefits were just firing up when i bought it.



I did spin the room, it's not well suited for that but as a test, did have a much wider soundstage but the hump was worse.




I will very soon my friend. You are correct, I never processed the R! sub signal but may have sounded like I had if I used the word sub as I did cut the R1's and send the LFE to the F113, never got a decent blend.(Hence my endless comments about why own them if I cut at 100 and send the signal to the F113 (when you likely were talking about sending the signal to the R1's.





Fully following you. (no double bass but yes, phase, room and all that.




Thanks, Will digest the above for a few days as I read the links, Dirac I have noticed has been mentioned quite often in taming R1's (I think because you can box in part of the frequency to tame and leave the high end alone. )





We shall see where the weekend experiment takes me, printing this out to study. I do have the ability to set individual cross overs for all speakers with the 8.8's which I do find very necessary with any HT I have had.




Thanks for the info, Good to know. Will start over with the normal methods which will start with just the R1's and if that all works out adding in the center and then the rears. the stand alone sub is always last in the chain, if needed.




I wish Buddy, I used to wear 4 hats and needed to take it down to three. I'm inactive, just need to pay full dues and 10 hours of CLE if I decide to get back in the game.
Alright! Sounds like we're getting somewhere. I look forward to hearing about how they calibrate. I'd be surprised if the JL performed better than the sum of both subs in those towers.
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post #5402 of 5412 Old 06-26-2019, 08:54 PM
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I am team GoldenEar and I’ve bought bunch of GE speakers including Triton 2s, 1s, and References for my front two at some point. I’ve also purchased center channel XXL. I know the new reference center channel is supposed to pair with the Reference tower series although it may be a solid upgrade to the XXL it’s not in the same class as my T Refs. I really wish there was a monster center that on par with my T refs.

I’ve purchased 4 sets of towers,8 in ceiling speakers, 2 center channels and 2 sat 50 so I’m a huge supporter of the brand. Some of those have been upgrades like SuperCenter XL to XXL and I thought in every case the upgrade was worth it but I don’t think this upgrade will get me what I need center channel wise. Just my two cents

(2) GoldenEar References, GoldenEar SuperCenter XXL, (4) GoldenEar HTR 7000 (atmos), (2) GoldenEar SuperSat 50’s, (2) GoldenEar Triton 7 (rears), Dual Seaton Sumbersive HP (Master / Slave), JVC NX5, Dalite 119 inch UTC, Panasonic BP - UB 820, Marantz 8805, Emotiva XPR 2, Emotiva XPA 9 (gen 3) Panamax 5102, Harmony Elite, 4K Apple TV
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post #5403 of 5412 Old 06-28-2019, 08:17 AM
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I am team GoldenEar and I’ve bought bunch of GE speakers including Triton 2s, 1s, and References for my front two at some point. I’ve also purchased center channel XXL. I know the new reference center channel is supposed to pair with the Reference tower series although it may be a solid upgrade to the XXL it’s not in the same class as my T Refs. I really wish there was a monster center that on par with my T refs.

I’ve purchased 4 sets of towers,8 in ceiling speakers, 2 center channels and 2 sat 50 so I’m a huge supporter of the brand. Some of those have been upgrades like SuperCenter XL to XXL and I thought in every case the upgrade was worth it but I don’t think this upgrade will get me what I need center channel wise. Just my two cents
I run my one.r's in phantom mode...I would imagine the t-ref's in phantom would be fantastic as well

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post #5404 of 5412 Old 07-09-2019, 11:30 AM
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Alright! Sounds like we're getting somewhere. I look forward to hearing about how they calibrate. I'd be surprised if the JL performed better than the sum of both subs in those towers.

Should have a report for you after the weekend, have tried many things, my dealer stopped by yesterday and made a adjustment, it did improve things, I listened to different HT content yesterday. While not great in extensive testing (my old system still is much fuller, I do appear to have something to work with now. This weekend should tell me if I can get away where from where I am.



I now have some midrange, bass is tamed a bit but is often too much or too little when the soundtrack gets complicated. (Plan to push the mains farther out in the room over the weekend and move the couch back). Odd thing though, after the adjustments yesterday the "holographic" imaging they are known for and really one of the main things I liked about Tritons when heard in a showroom is totally gone, everything on HT is very localized to the speakers, I'm just running 3.0 right now to try to dial in one thing at a time. Music does sound much better now. If 95% of my listening was not HT I would be set.


Stay tuned for an update.
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post #5405 of 5412 Old 07-10-2019, 03:54 AM
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Should have a report for you after the weekend, have tried many things, my dealer stopped by yesterday and made a adjustment, it did improve things, I listened to different HT content yesterday. While not great in extensive testing (my old system still is much fuller, I do appear to have something to work with now. This weekend should tell me if I can get away where from where I am.



I now have some midrange, bass is tamed a bit but is often too much or too little when the soundtrack gets complicated. (Plan to push the mains farther out in the room over the weekend and move the couch back). Odd thing though, after the adjustments yesterday the "holographic" imaging they are known for and really one of the main things I liked about Tritons when heard in a showroom is totally gone, everything on HT is very localized to the speakers, I'm just running 3.0 right now to try to dial in one thing at a time. Music does sound much better now. If 95% of my listening was not HT I would be set.


Stay tuned for an update.

Great to hear at least some progress on this front! Quick question, does that holographic imaging cease when running with surround sound, or are you referring to stereo music? I've usually considered that bizarre phenomenon to apply to the latter, and not the former. I'll be interested to find out how the measurements are when you run the experiment we talked about (i.e., using the subs in the towers as if they were separate subs so that you can apply some correction to them--all without your JL sub in the question)--again, more of an experiment than anything so that we can see how they respond to correction. Hopefully, with all this, you're enjoying the process. (At one time, I almost loathed the process, but over time, it really has become a hobby--I am unsure how wise it is, however, to make it such, as these items aren't exactly appreciating assets! Oh well, at least I haven't caught the "golf" bug. )
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post #5406 of 5412 Old 07-12-2019, 12:31 PM
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Great to hear at least some progress on this front! Quick question, does that holographic imaging cease when running with surround sound, or are you referring to stereo music? I've usually considered that bizarre phenomenon to apply to the latter, and not the former
Both, Never heard it on music at all, did notice it on home theater with a fly buzzing around in the soundtrack mix I could almost track it going around my head but that was when the R1's were in one of the worst places I tried. I've got solid wonderful midrange now, oddly not much bass (on music) but we shall see if we can fix that this weekend. At least the midrange shines, I'm a midrange junkie and if the mids on music are not solid it a heck of a negative to my ears. (And yes, I would not want music to swish around the room, a solid front soundstage is all I desire)

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I'll be interested to find out how the measurements are when you run the experiment we talked about (i.e., using the subs in the towers as if they were separate subs so that you can apply some correction to them--all without your JL sub in the question)--again, more of an experiment than anything so that we can see how they respond to correction
Will let you know early in the week my friend, fingers crossed.
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Hopefully, with all this, you're enjoying the process. (At one time, I almost loathed the process, but over time, it really has become a hobby--I am unsure how wise it is, however, to make it such, as these items aren't exactly appreciating assets! Oh well, at least I haven't caught the "golf" bug. [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Mercer\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01 \clip_image001.gif[/IMG])
LOL, I enjoy it most of the time, much like anything else, if I am making some progress it's entertaining and educational, if I don't get a better result time and time again or a lesser result it gets tedious. (though for me it's a blast to tweak someone else's system that they have had in place for a while, easy, fast, normally just requires a sound meter moving a few things around to improve things drastically, so may people just plop them down and don't even balance levels. Nice to see their smile after a hour or two of messing around and getting that look like you are the Mother Teresa of Home Theater.

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I am unsure how wise it is, however, to make it such, as these items aren't exactly appreciating assets! Oh well, at least I haven't caught the "golf" bug. [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Mercer\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01 \clip_image001.gif[/IMG])

LOL buddy yea, value drops quick, but if I divide out the amount per hour of listening in my mancave it's not bad, have never used my tv speakers in my main rig. Golf, that is a sinkhole, at least my only other hobby (which does involve the outdoors has made me some good $$$).
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post #5407 of 5412 Old 07-15-2019, 11:54 AM
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Update, Cut the R1's at 100, the rumored internal crossover point of the R1's and feed them strictly through the LFE cable. Also tried it at 90. Both cleared up the muddiness for the most part, still have a 3db hump in the 20-40 range. Something is amiss though, though it cleared up the imbalance for the most part, I've lost most of the dynamics of the sound. They sound very flat and I don't mean that in a good way.



I'm a bit lost, I know Golden Ear and my dealer seem to really want you to stay clear of any processing (dirac being somewhat of an exception). Bass especially lacks that showroom sound and is coming off as a much smaller non powered sealed speaker. (Which is odd with the 3db hump) I'm starting to think that there is some sort of internal processing going on in the R1's that don't respond well to processing.



But we shall see, my processor lets me store five curves and switch them on the fly. I'm going to start and load them up tonight at 70,65,60 and keep working my way down to the least processing I can. I'm thinking that might bring the dynamics back. I can't help but laugh at this point. Went from dynamic but bloated to flat like a four day can of opened soda. But hey, Still have many options to try, will be hitting it every night this week.


If you think of anything else buddy please let me know. Will report after I've done the cut and rebalanced the R1's at every available crossover point.
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post #5408 of 5412 Old 07-15-2019, 12:36 PM
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This is very odd

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Update, Cut the R1's at 100, the rumored internal crossover point of the R1's and feed them strictly through the LFE cable. Also tried it at 90. Both cleared up the muddiness for the most part, still have a 3db hump in the 20-40 range. Something is amiss though, though it cleared up the imbalance for the most part, I've lost most of the dynamics of the sound. They sound very flat and I don't mean that in a good way.



I'm a bit lost, I know Golden Ear and my dealer seem to really want you to stay clear of any processing (dirac being somewhat of an exception). Bass especially lacks that showroom sound and is coming off as a much smaller non powered sealed speaker. (Which is odd with the 3db hump) I'm starting to think that there is some sort of internal processing going on in the R1's that don't respond well to processing.



But we shall see, my processor lets me store five curves and switch them on the fly. I'm going to start and load them up tonight at 70,65,60 and keep working my way down to the least processing I can. I'm thinking that might bring the dynamics back. I can't help but laugh at this point. Went from dynamic but bloated to flat like a four day can of opened soda. But hey, Still have many options to try, will be hitting it every night this week.


If you think of anything else buddy please let me know. Will report after I've done the cut and rebalanced the R1's at every available crossover point.
Hi, Sorry for your issues. Honestly I do not understand what is going on here. Looking at your curve again, you show a 10dB peak with the lower bass turned down 12 dB. Makes no sense. What you are talking about in terms of cutting the speakers off at 100 Hz and running the bass in through the LFE in is absolutely incorrect. If this sounds better to you, so be it but it is wrong. I am not sure what you are doing with the processing. I would suggest hooking the speakers up with only the speaker wire, no LFE in, turn off all processing and EQ. Set the management to large Left and Right and Sub No, and see what you get. I had spoken with your dealer and he was going to come out. Did that ever happen? Thanks, Sandy
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post #5409 of 5412 Old 07-15-2019, 04:51 PM
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I would suggest hooking the speakers up with only the speaker wire, no LFE in...
that's the ticket...

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post #5410 of 5412 Old 07-16-2019, 02:54 PM
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Hi, Sorry for your issues.
Thanks Sandy and a big hello.

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Honestly I do not understand what is going on here. Looking at your curve again, you show a 10dB peak with the lower bass turned down 12 dB. Makes no sense

That is not a processed curve, the sliders in that instance mean nothing. The LFE goes from my receiver sub out to the SMS then to the F113 sub. The F113 power was unplugged at the time. (The sliders were a prior setting to bring the F113 bass humps down.) The SMS was used solely to read the two R1's which were connected only by speaker wire at the time, no LFE fed was used. The bass knobs at the time were at the 9'Oclock position though I have taken them to 12 which of course causes more bass which I am trying to tame



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What you are talking about in terms of cutting the speakers off at 100 Hz and running the bass in through the LFE in is absolutely incorrect. If this sounds better to you, so be it but it is wrong. I am not sure what you are doing with the processing.

It does not sound better to me, just different. I've rotated the room to try another wall, reset my receiver to get rid of any artifacts, tried a different receiver moved the couch to the back third of the room, moved it to the front third of the room, moved the speakers well into the double digits, played with toe in and toe out, bought a bunch more bass traps and moved them around each time. Every time speakers are moved I have recalculated speaker distance, and experiment with different toe in's and bass trap positions.
It seemed logical to try to cut the bass at the LFE line since I can't cut it at the speaker wire input since months of trying placement, settings and the bass trap dance did not cut the huge low frequency hump. Honestly I am running out of options and am seeking advice on this and other forums from owners seeking options that have not occurred to me.HTNUT1975 has been very helpful in brainstorming outside the box. Perhaps I should try the subwoofer forum here as the issue is subwoofer room integration since the speakers are a hybrid.



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. I would suggest hooking the speakers up with only the speaker wire, no LFE in, turn off all processing and EQ. Set the management to large Left and Right and Sub No, and see what you get. I had spoken with your dealer and he was going to come out. Did that ever happen? Thanks, Sandy

Yes, They came down a bit over a week ago, It's a 120 mile round trip, very nice people. They did toe the speakers out almost straight in the room and set the receiver to no sub. That did bring out the midrange a bit more, at that point it seemed I had a starting point to fine tune by moving the speakers around and moving bass traps so I had left it in a 3.0 setup trying to dial in the mains and center. They sound fairly good when material has no deep bass, when any material has strong low bass the 20 to 40 hump smothers the rest of the spectrum resulting in lack of detail in the high end and very muffled mids. Not your cup of tea I expect but one good example where the hump causes huge issues would be the last episode of this seasons "Stranger Things".



I am in no way questioning the R1's sonically, both through reputation and the fact I own two systems of your prior designs, this was to replace my main system. I have even lowed my expectations, I went into this expecting them to sound better than the STS's. I have decided if they just sound equal I can live with them because they do beat the STS's hands down on music (likely because of little information in the 20-40 area to cause issues.)


I'm a big fan and your designs have gave me many years of great listening. Through process of elimination I am certain the whole issue is the room interaction with the powered R1's subs. I have about two feet of placement play in the front corners of the room which is reinforcing the low bass. I expect this is why I keep reading the mantra from many other owners "bring them further out into the room."

Respectfully, MM
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post #5411 of 5412 Old Yesterday, 05:26 AM
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Update, Cut the R1's at 100, the rumored internal crossover point of the R1's and feed them strictly through the LFE cable. Also tried it at 90. Both cleared up the muddiness for the most part, still have a 3db hump in the 20-40 range. Something is amiss though, though it cleared up the imbalance for the most part, I've lost most of the dynamics of the sound. They sound very flat and I don't mean that in a good way.



I'm a bit lost, I know Golden Ear and my dealer seem to really want you to stay clear of any processing (dirac being somewhat of an exception). Bass especially lacks that showroom sound and is coming off as a much smaller non powered sealed speaker. (Which is odd with the 3db hump) I'm starting to think that there is some sort of internal processing going on in the R1's that don't respond well to processing.



But we shall see, my processor lets me store five curves and switch them on the fly. I'm going to start and load them up tonight at 70,65,60 and keep working my way down to the least processing I can. I'm thinking that might bring the dynamics back. I can't help but laugh at this point. Went from dynamic but bloated to flat like a four day can of opened soda. But hey, Still have many options to try, will be hitting it every night this week.


If you think of anything else buddy please let me know. Will report after I've done the cut and rebalanced the R1's at every available crossover point.

I completely missed this, because I didn't have a "notice." So, in some sense there was "progress," but then that left other areas lacking (the dynamism). Regardless, did you get any measurements with the different hookup, showing that the bass was tamed or giving a flatter response? The original suggestion for doing this wasn't for the purpose of having a permanent alternative solution--it was to show that the bass from the towers only can be tamed via electronic calibration (even if it isn't the ideal permanent solution, obviously, because it bypasses the internal crossovers of the towers in a sense--no telling what all is lost with respect to fullness of sound, when doing it this way).



If the tower subs can be tamed properly, then it stands to reason that newer electronics may solve the problem. If I recall correctly, the reason being is as follows: given your current setup, you're not able to electronically calibrate the subwoofers in those towers when you run them full range. Am I correct in thinking this? If so, then perhaps trying out newer electronics may solve the problem (e.g., getting the kind of electronics we were talking about, with a return window which would make it risk free--except, of course, time and hassle). Think of it this way: you have, in most respects, recently purchased BMW M-level speakers from a technological perspective--but they're running on used tires that are fit for a pretty darn good sporty Maxima. On many roads, that wouldn't be much of an issue just as in many rooms, this wouldn't necessarily be an issue; but apparently, that's not the case in the more problematic rooms (hence, the need for summer Michelin top-rated summer tires when it comes to windy roads and major horsepower).

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post #5412 of 5412 Old Yesterday, 06:18 AM
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Update, Cut the R1's at 100, the rumored internal crossover point of the R1's and feed them strictly through the LFE cable. Also tried it at 90. Both cleared up the muddiness for the most part, still have a 3db hump in the 20-40 range. Something is amiss though, though it cleared up the imbalance for the most part, I've lost most of the dynamics of the sound. They sound very flat and I don't mean that in a good way.



I'm a bit lost, I know Golden Ear and my dealer seem to really want you to stay clear of any processing (dirac being somewhat of an exception). Bass especially lacks that showroom sound and is coming off as a much smaller non powered sealed speaker. (Which is odd with the 3db hump) I'm starting to think that there is some sort of internal processing going on in the R1's that don't respond well to processing.



But we shall see, my processor lets me store five curves and switch them on the fly. I'm going to start and load them up tonight at 70,65,60 and keep working my way down to the least processing I can. I'm thinking that might bring the dynamics back. I can't help but laugh at this point. Went from dynamic but bloated to flat like a four day can of opened soda. But hey, Still have many options to try, will be hitting it every night this week.


If you think of anything else buddy please let me know. Will report after I've done the cut and rebalanced the R1's at every available crossover point.

Ok, I've been thinking about this more and more since my last post and I wanted to point out a couple of other things which seem to follow from our discussion--this is only to in a sense show that there is need for updated electronics with the newer setup.



First, the original measurement posted doesn't show any calibration from the towers, as we know--at most, all you're able to do is adjust volume of the tower subs (and that obviously isn't going to address individual frequencies). It wouldn't be fair to compare your older towers and JL subwoofer together with the newer towers alone, because, after all, the older speakers were actually calibrated. So, this is stuff we already know (at best, for a more fair comparison between old speakers and new, you'd have to run your older speakers together without any calibration at all except for volume adjustment of your subwoofer).



Second, when you've run the experiment showing that the subs in those towers actually can be tamed, it lacks the dynamism that it should have--especially comparing your older speaker setup. Here's where I think that isn't a fair comparison with the old setup as well: when you run the experimental setup (i.e., LFE for subs in the towers only, running them as small instead of full range), even though it may show that the calibration of your electronics can tame those tower-subs to some degree (which was the whole point of the experiment), there is no telling what it is doing to each individual frequency at the lower range (e.g., how is phase between the two subs in the towers being affected at 42, 43, 45, 67, 99 and so on?). And, how do the internal crossovers inherent in those towers respond with each individual frequency adjustment, along with phase, etc., when running the experiment? The towers weren't designed to be run like that--hence the reason for newer electronics (e.g., Dirac electronically fixes phase issues).
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