Pioneer's Speaker Genius Hits Low Price Point - Page 208 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6211 of 6446 Old 04-14-2015, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
I have a BS-41, but I haven't tried swapping in the Vifa, mainly because I was afraid of damaging the mesh grill. You would need to cut a notch in the routing to let the negative terminal of the tweeter pass through. I'll try and find time today or tomorrow to do the swap and I'll report what I find. I'm sure it won't be perfect without a Xover mod, but it might make an improvement. We'll see.
That's awesome! I don't think the grill will be able to be reused since it sits in a channel molded in the tweeter itself. Do you use the Vifa D27TG-35/06? I'm guessing not since the cost is nowhere close to $11 but that's the only reference I could find.

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post #6212 of 6446 Old 04-14-2015, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by crakarjax View Post
That's awesome! I don't think the grill will be able to be reused since it sits in a channel molded in the tweeter itself. Do you use the Vifa D27TG-35/06? I'm guessing not since the cost is nowhere close to $11 but that's the only reference I could find.

Nope--it's this puppy: http://www.parts-express.com/tymphan...eter--264-1040
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post #6213 of 6446 Old 04-14-2015, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crakarjax View Post
That's awesome! I don't think the grill will be able to be reused since it sits in a channel molded in the tweeter itself. Do you use the Vifa D27TG-35/06? I'm guessing not since the cost is nowhere close to $11 but that's the only reference I could find.
OK. So I managed to get the grill off without damaging it, only to find that the baffle of the Vifa is too small to screw into the routing. But I did an ad hoc mounting and held everything together by replacing the grill just to get an idea of the before and after. A better candidate for a replacement tweeter might be the venerable Parts Express Dayton Silkie, which has an oversize baffle is cheap and a solid performer. Here's how the stock speaker measures (yes, there are tweeter issues):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3snvy706k...G-005.png?dl=0


And here's how the Vifa measures with no crossover mod.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ti1hpusaui...G-006.png?dl=0



No banana. If you put maybe a 3 ohm resister in series with the wire to the positive tweeter terminal, you might be able to get the treble sort of right, but there would still be peaks that would require a complete crossover mod to iron out.
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post #6214 of 6446 Old 04-14-2015, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
OK. So I managed to get the grill off without damaging it, only to find that the baffle of the Vifa is too small to screw into the routing. But I did an ad hoc mounting and held everything together by replacing the grill just to get an idea of the before and after. A better candidate for a replacement tweeter might be the venerable Parts Express Dayton Silkie, which has an oversize baffle is cheap and a solid performer. Here's how the stock speaker measures (yes, there are tweeter issues):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3snvy706k...G-005.png?dl=0


And here's how the Vifa measures with no crossover mod.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ti1hpusaui...G-006.png?dl=0



No banana. If you put maybe a 3 ohm resister in series with the wire to the positive tweeter terminal, you might be able to get the treble sort of right, but there would still be peaks that would require a complete crossover mod to iron out.
That's really cool... I actually have those dayton tweeters in a bookshelf kit that I put together years ago -- maybe I'll swap them in and see how they look. Do you have to calibrate for your mic with a reference speaker or something when recording to make those response curves? I'm wondering if my audyssey calibration mic will suffice...
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post #6215 of 6446 Old 04-14-2015, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by crakarjax View Post
That's really cool... I actually have those dayton tweeters in a bookshelf kit that I put together years ago -- maybe I'll swap them in and see how they look. Do you have to calibrate for your mic with a reference speaker or something when recording to make those response curves? I'm wondering if my audyssey calibration mic will suffice...
I use what is probably the best measurement system available--Praxis. It has a calibrated mic and shows you the inherent response of the speaker from about 200 Hz on up. Below that point, the measurements introduce room effects, and things get very bumpy. I cut the measurements off at 200 Hz to avoid confusion. I could never make much out of the Audyssey plots, and in general it's not a good idea to use any Audyssey-induced equalization above 200 Hz. It will just mess with the crossover integration and produce very unpredictable results. Audyssey can help with room bass modes, and I would restrict its use to the bass region.
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post #6216 of 6446 Old 04-15-2015, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
I use what is probably the best measurement system available--Praxis. It has a calibrated mic and shows you the inherent response of the speaker from about 200 Hz on up. Below that point, the measurements introduce room effects, and things get very bumpy. I cut the measurements off at 200 Hz to avoid confusion. I could never make much out of the Audyssey plots, and in general it's not a good idea to use any Audyssey-induced equalization above 200 Hz. It will just mess with the crossover integration and produce very unpredictable results. Audyssey can help with room bass modes, and I would restrict its use to the bass region.
Well I can't drop that kind of money on a calibration mic, even if I want to I guess I'll just throw them in and see if they sound ok as mains with some well-listened to music.

I'm not sure my receiver (TX-SR876) allows Audyssey equalization only below 200Hz but I'll look into it and give a listen if it does -- thanks for the tip! It's disappointing to hear though, as it shouldn't be too difficult to create a measured equalization that compensates for the frequency response of each speaker (although I'm not sure what crossover integration means), as long as you have enough frequency bins.
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post #6217 of 6446 Old 04-15-2015, 11:35 AM
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Only the newest versions of Audyssey do a good job with subwoofer frequencies.
You can (and should ) get a calibrated mic for <$100. Then you can get good measurements and know what needs to be improved:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...rew-setup.html

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post #6218 of 6446 Old 04-16-2015, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Only the newest versions of Audyssey do a good job with subwoofer frequencies.
You can (and should ) get a calibrated mic for <$100. Then you can get good measurements and know what needs to be improved:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...rew-setup.html
Very cool, bookmarked that.

Turns out American Express is awesome; I purchased my BS41 set with my Amex in 2013 and just received a refund for the purchase price from Amex because they warranty all electronics purchases (and more) for 1 year after the mfg warranty runs out! Maybe I'll put that money toward a calibrated mic...

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post #6219 of 6446 Old 04-17-2015, 07:28 AM
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^crakarjax,

Be sure to download Jerry Austin's step by step guide on using REW with USB mic. It is a treasure trove of useful information for newbies who want to carry out an in room frequency sweep of their speakers and find ways to address sound quality issues.

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post #6220 of 6446 Old 04-22-2015, 06:20 PM
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Are Pioneer SP-FS52-LR's still getting good reviews these days? Looking to pair it with the following:

Denon AVR-E300 receiver
Pioneer SP-C22 center speaker
very old subwoofer

room size - 19ft by 23 ft (bonus room so carpet and regular drywall walls)
tv shows and movies only

Basically, the c22 center speaker is my only source of sound and while it's great for vocals, I need something more for for the rest of the sound.

Budget is around $200 for a pair so hoping the FS52's go on sale soon if they are still good.

Thanks
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post #6221 of 6446 Old 04-22-2015, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bryn987 View Post
Are Pioneer SP-FS52-LR's still getting good reviews these days? Looking to pair it with the following:

Denon AVR-E300 receiver
Pioneer SP-C22 center speaker
very old subwoofer

room size - 19ft by 23 ft (bonus room so carpet and regular drywall walls)
tv shows and movies only

Basically, the c22 center speaker is my only source of sound and while it's great for vocals, I need something more for for the rest of the sound.

Budget is around $200 for a pair so hoping the FS52's go on sale soon if they are still good.

Thanks
Particularly since you already have the c22 I don't think you can beat the 52s for the price assuming you wait for a sale.
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post #6222 of 6446 Old 04-30-2015, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
OK. So I managed to get the grill off without damaging it, only to find that the baffle of the Vifa is too small to screw into the routing. But I did an ad hoc mounting and held everything together by replacing the grill just to get an idea of the before and after. A better candidate for a replacement tweeter might be the venerable Parts Express Dayton Silkie, which has an oversize baffle is cheap and a solid performer. Here's how the stock speaker measures (yes, there are tweeter issues):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3snvy706k...G-005.png?dl=0


And here's how the Vifa measures with no crossover mod.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ti1hpusaui...G-006.png?dl=0



No banana. If you put maybe a 3 ohm resister in series with the wire to the positive tweeter terminal, you might be able to get the treble sort of right, but there would still be peaks that would require a complete crossover mod to iron out.
Without knowing any of the other characteristic of the tweeter, for a random drop in replacement it looks to measure ok. I've seen much more expensive speakers have similar rising rates out of the tweeter.
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post #6223 of 6446 Old 05-02-2015, 12:06 AM
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Say mates, around what price range would you say someone had to enter in order to "upgrade" from these bookshelves?

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The FS51 pair has been on sale recently for $100... Really considering buying a pair just for the tweeters and then having fun with the spare parts. I could save a few bucks by grabbing the Dayton tweeters for $40, but taking things apart is so much more fun!

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post #6225 of 6446 Old 05-02-2015, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Kingcarcas View Post
Say mates, around what price range would you say someone had to enter in order to "upgrade" from these bookshelves?
Impossible to say. Sound is subjective. Sales happen. Lots of used speakers for sale.
Start a new thread and post what you don't like about the Pioneers and what your budget is. You will get all kinds of suggestions.
Ultimately only you can decide what will be an upgrade.
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post #6226 of 6446 Old 05-02-2015, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Kingcarcas View Post
Say mates, around what price range would you say someone had to enter in order to "upgrade" from these bookshelves?
For me, it only cost $100 a pair to get that clear upgrade sound. So overall money is not a guarantee.

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post #6227 of 6446 Old 05-17-2015, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
OK. So I managed to get the grill off without damaging it, only to find that the baffle of the Vifa is too small to screw into the routing. But I did an ad hoc mounting and held everything together by replacing the grill just to get an idea of the before and after. A better candidate for a replacement tweeter might be the venerable Parts Express Dayton Silkie, which has an oversize baffle is cheap and a solid performer. Here's how the stock speaker measures (yes, there are tweeter issues):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3snvy706k...G-005.png?dl=0


And here's how the Vifa measures with no crossover mod.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ti1hpusaui...G-006.png?dl=0



No banana. If you put maybe a 3 ohm resister in series with the wire to the positive tweeter terminal, you might be able to get the treble sort of right, but there would still be peaks that would require a complete crossover mod to iron out.
I don't know how the addition of resistance would affect the tweeter ouput (flat reduction in amplitude? linear?) but it *looks* like the treble response would be improved with a resistor vs stock just based on that dip at 10k.

I dropped in a Vifa that you tested, although I've only received one of the two that I ordered. Here are some pics of the process, and if I had a calibrated mic I'd play with adding a resistor but for now the one I installed sounds pretty balanced as a surround.

I took the baffle off first in order to use the stock BS41 baffle.


I had to enlarge the screw openings on the front to allow the Vifa screws to recess in the baffle, and also had to shave down the rear posts so the speaker would sit flush.


The screws were too long so I nipped them down.


Then after assembling the old baffle to the Vifa driver, it installed just as stock in the enclosure, grille and all.

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post #6228 of 6446 Old 05-17-2015, 05:40 PM
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You're more skilled and patient than I was. Nice camera, btw. Really clean pics.
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post #6229 of 6446 Old 05-17-2015, 08:11 PM
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Thanks, that's the nexus 6 camera -- I hardly use my DSLR anymore. Amazing what they've fit in such a small package.
I'm wondering how the difference in baffle curvature effects the frequency response of the driver? Is there literature on this or is it more art than science?
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Originally Posted by crakarjax View Post
Thanks, that's the nexus 6 camera -- I hardly use my DSLR anymore. Amazing what they've fit in such a small package.
I'm wondering how the difference in baffle curvature effects the frequency response of the driver? Is there literature on this or is it more art than science?
Nice job with the speakers.
I thought Nexus 6 was the model of Replicant that gave Decker fits in Blade Runner.
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post #6231 of 6446 Old 05-18-2015, 03:21 PM
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Nice job with the speakers.
I thought Nexus 6 was the model of Replicant that gave Decker fits in Blade Runner.
And it runs the Android operating system... go figure!
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post #6232 of 6446 Old 08-18-2015, 02:31 PM
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Add on speakers for dolby atmos

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Speakers/Pioneer+Speakers/SP-T22A-LR


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post #6233 of 6446 Old 08-18-2015, 05:08 PM
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Atmos speaker BS22A-LR



http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...rs/SP-BS22A-LR

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post #6234 of 6446 Old 08-18-2015, 07:43 PM
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I wonder how they'd work for front height speakers.
I'm not quite ready to toss my receiver just yet.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #6235 of 6446 Old 08-21-2015, 05:18 AM
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Hey guys. Wondering if some people can offer some experience and/or opinions on my current situation. I currently have the FS 52's up fronts for mains with the center channel. I'm going to replace out those towers because I want to get my speakers off the floors for kids. The center channel is mounted below my projection screen. The room is 12x21 with 7 foot ceilings. It's used mostly for home theater, but we go down for music as well.

My dilemma is trying to figure whether getting the BS 22s will suffice for home theater as mains. I am running a BIC F12 subwoofer which I plan on upgrading within the next 2-3 years. I don't want to spend that much more money than I already have, and selling my towers and getting the bookshelves would actually save me a few dollars considering how frequently these go on sale. I have thought about abandoning the Pioneer speakers altogether and going with the Polk RTi line considering they have some nice deals as well (plus they're front ported), but not sure if I would be advancing audio quality by that much or not. Can anyone offer their thoughts on this? Thanks and will wait to hear back.
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post #6236 of 6446 Old 08-21-2015, 08:23 AM
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Upgrading the sub will make more of a difference than upgrading the mains. Unless you change the center, too, you're better off staying with the Pios.

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post #6237 of 6446 Old 08-21-2015, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Hey guys. Wondering if some people can offer some experience and/or opinions on my current situation. I currently have the FS 52's up fronts for mains with the center channel. I'm going to replace out those towers because I want to get my speakers off the floors for kids. The center channel is mounted below my projection screen. The room is 12x21 with 7 foot ceilings. It's used mostly for home theater, but we go down for music as well.

My dilemma is trying to figure whether getting the BS 22s will suffice for home theater as mains. I am running a BIC F12 subwoofer which I plan on upgrading within the next 2-3 years. I don't want to spend that much more money than I already have, and selling my towers and getting the bookshelves would actually save me a few dollars considering how frequently these go on sale. I have thought about abandoning the Pioneer speakers altogether and going with the Polk RTi line considering they have some nice deals as well (plus they're front ported), but not sure if I would be advancing audio quality by that much or not. Can anyone offer their thoughts on this? Thanks and will wait to hear back.

BS22 work wonderful as mains, I like the speakers so much I might at some point next year grab Andrews new Elac debut series. If he can squeeze a bit more with a higher budget with the better looks I'm sold.

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post #6238 of 6446 Old 08-21-2015, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Hey guys. Wondering if some people can offer some experience and/or opinions on my current situation. I currently have the FS 52's up fronts for mains with the center channel. I'm going to replace out those towers because I want to get my speakers off the floors for kids. The center channel is mounted below my projection screen. The room is 12x21 with 7 foot ceilings. It's used mostly for home theater, but we go down for music as well.

My dilemma is trying to figure whether getting the BS 22s will suffice for home theater as mains. I am running a BIC F12 subwoofer which I plan on upgrading within the next 2-3 years. I don't want to spend that much more money than I already have, and selling my towers and getting the bookshelves would actually save me a few dollars considering how frequently these go on sale. I have thought about abandoning the Pioneer speakers altogether and going with the Polk RTi line considering they have some nice deals as well (plus they're front ported), but not sure if I would be advancing audio quality by that much or not. Can anyone offer their thoughts on this? Thanks and will wait to hear back.
Off the floor? You talking bookshelfs on speaker stands?
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post #6239 of 6446 Old 08-21-2015, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
I currently have the FS 52's up fronts for mains with the center channel. I'm going to replace out those towers because I want to get my speakers off the floors for kids.
An option to consider is swapping your 2s for 1s, i.e. the first generation speakers. Putting aside discussion of which is the "better" speaker (since it has been well covered in this thread), the first generation speakers have flush metal grills, are wider, deeper (and the FS is shorter) and are pretty much kid-, cat-, vacuum cleaner-, etc. proof.

It has been a while since they have been on sale from NewEgg, which used to be a regular occurrence. Perhaps you could arrange a local swap with an owner of a comparable set of first generation speakers.

Bookshelf speakers on stands will be far more vulnerable than floorstanding speakers and represent a worse investment since the floorstanding speaker are effectively the same speaker fixed on a sturdy stand with an extra woofer and better performance (and price, depending on what stands you buy).

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The center channel is mounted below my projection screen.
If you have space and depending on the size of the screen, moving the speaker(s) behind the screen is an attractive option in most cases especially if the screen is acoustically transparent and will enable you to raise it to the same tweeter level as the mains where it belongs. I hope you don't have the center on the floor, even if it is pointing up to the main listening position. Doing this may also help you protect your existing speakers and save you the time, effort and cost of changing speakers just to try to keep the safe.

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I am running a BIC F12 subwoofer which I plan on upgrading within the next 2-3 years. I don't want to spend that much more money than I already have
Here's your real dilemma. By far the biggest upgrade in sound will come from getting a better sub - preferably (at least) two, however that better sub will cost more than your speakers. This has also been discussed at length in this thread, including advice on what and where to buy new and used.

FWIW, I have SP-FS51-LR, SP-C21 and SP-BS41-LR with dual SVS SB1000s in my bedroom theater and two SP-BS21-LRs in the basement.
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post #6240 of 6446 Old 08-21-2015, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Off the floor? You talking bookshelfs on speaker stands?
No, my plan is to mount them on the wall on the sides of my screen. Not ideal I know, but I want them off the ground due to kids not being able to mess with them. Here's a picture.
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