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post #8011 of 9159 Old 03-14-2019, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
They use two different Raal’s and if you check out Raal’s website they compare the frequency response if each one, and not two are alike. From this I would expect them to sound similar, possibly unnoticeable, but slightly different. Dave might have something to say on this. Speaking of which, I’m headed to SoCal and plan on hearing quite a bit of the lineup!
I am not fully comfortable jumping into this thread, but I thought it best to answer this question as there is quite a bit of discussion. First off, I reached out to Dennis personally when I first heard of the sad news. While we are "competitors" - we have been "friendly competitors" for quite some time and we personally share a lot of common ground.

This is not an industry someone enters to make money, it is an industry that survives on the shoulders of those who have deep passion for it. As a small business grows, so do the headaches and stresses, when those elements bite into one’s passion and especially one’s health – it is time to step away from it. Being in this industry since 1985, I have been down this road more times than I care to remember.

I also apologize in advance if my message is somewhat incoherent, I caught a very nasty sinus infection and the combination of cough medicine and antibiotics isn't sitting well with me.

The 70-20xr (a modified version of which is used in our towers) is really an entirely different beast than the tweeter in our S2 or the 64-10 used in the BMR. Besides having over twice the radiating surface area, The 70-20, according to Aleks – is the best they manufacture and uses a unique and ingenious method to dampen the ribbon diaphragm of which I am under obligation not to discuss the technical details of. It is the reason this tweeter is not available over the counter and also why a contract must be executed in order to purchase it.

I have extensively evaluated every RAAL ribbon tweeter, and have worked directly with Aleksander on the design of the tweeter in our S2, which eventually brought forth the OEM 64-10 (used in the BMR’s, Salk Song 3’s and many others), and I must agree with Aleks, the 70-20xr is the best they offer. The frequency response is exceptionally linear, and the horizontal polar response is shockingly good. It can also be crossed quite low and can handle insane amounts of power, thanks in part to the way it is damped.

That said, assuming crossover adjustments to compensate for frequency response deviations between the two tweeters – from about 3500Hz on up, the two tweeters sound very similar provided the 64-10 is operating well below its max thermal and dynamic capabilities. Even within that operating range, the 70-20xr does have a smoother overall sound (thanks to how it is damped) and does provide more detail due to the transformer design. The 70-20xr uses a higher performance transformer with less saturation and less core loss, this is even further reduced in the 70-20xr if upgrading to the 70-20xram, which uses an amorphous core transformer.

Of course, the big question comes in – are these differences actually audible? We have had customers who can easily detect differences between these 2 different RAAL’s – and we have had customers who have not been able to. Heck, we have also had customers who haven’t been able to hear a difference between a quality dome and a RAAL ribbon. As always, it really comes down to your own hearing. From a technical standpoint, the 70-20xr / 70-20xram is quite superior but that does come with a cost, as the 70-20xr is a significantly more expensive tweeter, even more so when upgrading to the Amorphous core option.

Now all that stated, even with a high crossover and steep slope, power handling and dynamics on the 64-10 is limited compared to the 70-20xr, and this is where the audible differences between the 2 tweeters becomes extremely evident.

Both of these tweeters are excellent, but they are in very different price brackets and I would say that within their price brackets, as good as it gets.

Please feel free to contact me directly if any further questions arise as I am not on AVS very often these days.

Hope this makes some sense!

David Fabrikant

audio professional and soft spoken representative of www.AscendAcoustics.com

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post #8012 of 9159 Old 03-14-2019, 08:59 PM
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Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascend View Post
The 70-20xr (a modified version of which is used in our towers) is really an entirely different beast than the tweeter in our S2 or the 64-10 used in the BMR. Besides having over twice the radiating surface area, The 70-20, according to Aleks – is the best they manufacture and uses a unique and ingenious method to dampen the ribbon diaphragm of which I am under obligation not to discuss the technical details of. It is the reason this tweeter is not available over the counter and also why a contract must be executed in order to purchase it.

I have extensively evaluated every RAAL ribbon tweeter, and have worked directly with Aleksander on the design of the tweeter in our S2, which eventually brought forth the OEM 64-10 (used in the BMR’s, Salk Song 3’s and many others), and I must agree with Aleks, the 70-20xr is the best they offer. The frequency response is exceptionally linear, and the horizontal polar response is shockingly good. It can also be crossed quite low and can handle insane amounts of power, thanks in part to the way it is damped.

That said, assuming crossover adjustments to compensate for frequency response deviations between the two tweeters – from about 3500Hz on up, the two tweeters sound very similar provided the 64-10 is operating well below its max thermal and dynamic capabilities. Even within that operating range, the 70-20xr does have a smoother overall sound (thanks to how it is damped) and does provide more detail due to the transformer design. The 70-20xr uses a higher performance transformer with less saturation and less core loss, this is even further reduced in the 70-20xr if upgrading to the 70-20xram, which uses an amorphous core transformer.

Of course, the big question comes in – are these differences actually audible? We have had customers who can easily detect differences between these 2 different RAAL’s – and we have had customers who have not been able to. Heck, we have also had customers who haven’t been able to hear a difference between a quality dome and a RAAL ribbon. As always, it really comes down to your own hearing. From a technical standpoint, the 70-20xr / 70-20xram is quite superior but that does come with a cost, as the 70-20xr is a significantly more expensive tweeter, even more so when upgrading to the Amorphous core option.

Now all that stated, even with a high crossover and steep slope, power handling and dynamics on the 64-10 is limited compared to the 70-20xr, and this is where the audible differences between the 2 tweeters becomes extremely evident.

Both of these tweeters are excellent, but they are in very different price brackets and I would say that within their price brackets, as good as it gets.

Please feel free to contact me directly if any further questions arise as I am not on AVS very often these days.

Hope this makes some sense!
And this here folks is why Dave is one of the best in the business, right next to Dennis.

Thank you Dave.

And I hope you come back in good health soon Dennis.
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8013 of 9159 Old 03-14-2019, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Ascend View Post
I am not fully comfortable jumping into this thread, but I thought it best to answer this question as there is quite a bit of discussion. First off, I reached out to Dennis personally when I first heard of the sad news. While we are "competitors" - we have been "friendly competitors" for quite some time and we personally share a lot of common ground.

This is not an industry someone enters to make money, it is an industry that survives on the shoulders of those who have deep passion for it. As a small business grows, so do the headaches and stresses, when those elements bite into one’s passion and especially one’s health – it is time to step away from it. Being in this industry since 1985, I have been down this road more times than I care to remember.

I also apologize in advance if my message is somewhat incoherent, I caught a very nasty sinus infection and the combination of cough medicine and antibiotics isn't sitting well with me.

The 70-20xr (a modified version of which is used in our towers) is really an entirely different beast than the tweeter in our S2 or the 64-10 used in the BMR. Besides having over twice the radiating surface area, The 70-20, according to Aleks – is the best they manufacture and uses a unique and ingenious method to dampen the ribbon diaphragm of which I am under obligation not to discuss the technical details of. It is the reason this tweeter is not available over the counter and also why a contract must be executed in order to purchase it.

I have extensively evaluated every RAAL ribbon tweeter, and have worked directly with Aleksander on the design of the tweeter in our S2, which eventually brought forth the OEM 64-10 (used in the BMR’s, Salk Song 3’s and many others), and I must agree with Aleks, the 70-20xr is the best they offer. The frequency response is exceptionally linear, and the horizontal polar response is shockingly good. It can also be crossed quite low and can handle insane amounts of power, thanks in part to the way it is damped.

That said, assuming crossover adjustments to compensate for frequency response deviations between the two tweeters – from about 3500Hz on up, the two tweeters sound very similar provided the 64-10 is operating well below its max thermal and dynamic capabilities. Even within that operating range, the 70-20xr does have a smoother overall sound (thanks to how it is damped) and does provide more detail due to the transformer design. The 70-20xr uses a higher performance transformer with less saturation and less core loss, this is even further reduced in the 70-20xr if upgrading to the 70-20xram, which uses an amorphous core transformer.

Of course, the big question comes in – are these differences actually audible? We have had customers who can easily detect differences between these 2 different RAAL’s – and we have had customers who have not been able to. Heck, we have also had customers who haven’t been able to hear a difference between a quality dome and a RAAL ribbon. As always, it really comes down to your own hearing. From a technical standpoint, the 70-20xr / 70-20xram is quite superior but that does come with a cost, as the 70-20xr is a significantly more expensive tweeter, even more so when upgrading to the Amorphous core option.

Now all that stated, even with a high crossover and steep slope, power handling and dynamics on the 64-10 is limited compared to the 70-20xr, and this is where the audible differences between the 2 tweeters becomes extremely evident.

Both of these tweeters are excellent, but they are in very different price brackets and I would say that within their price brackets, as good as it gets.

Please feel free to contact me directly if any further questions arise as I am not on AVS very often these days.

Hope this makes some sense!
Thanks for your input. I'll also add that the 70-20 and 70-10 have field-replaceable ribbons.
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post #8014 of 9159 Old 03-14-2019, 10:43 PM
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I was HOPING Dennis would get healthy enough to do what he LOVES, designing speakers. Since it sounds like that isn't likely, I agree...
point taken.. you bring up a good point, i get the feeling that even a few weeks ago that there was pressure for him to return though, i hope nothing more than Dennis enjoy his life , i hope he does whatever he wishes to do unencumbered with the weight of over expectations from any direction...i wish him peace of mind (something i am often searching for) and happiness...

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Originally Posted by Ascend View Post
I am not fully comfortable jumping into this thread, but I thought it best to answer this question as there is quite a bit of discussion. First off, I reached out to Dennis personally when I first heard of the sad news. While we are "competitors" - we have been "friendly competitors" for quite some time and we personally share a lot of common ground.

This is not an industry someone enters to make money, it is an industry that survives on the shoulders of those who have deep passion for it. As a small business grows, so do the headaches and stresses, when those elements bite into one’s passion and especially one’s health – it is time to step away from it. Being in this industry since 1985, I have been down this road more times than I care to remember.

I also apologize in advance if my message is somewhat incoherent, I caught a very nasty sinus infection and the combination of cough medicine and antibiotics isn't sitting well with me.

The 70-20xr (a modified version of which is used in our towers) is really an entirely different beast than the tweeter in our S2 or the 64-10 used in the BMR. Besides having over twice the radiating surface area, The 70-20, according to Aleks – is the best they manufacture and uses a unique and ingenious method to dampen the ribbon diaphragm of which I am under obligation not to discuss the technical details of. It is the reason this tweeter is not available over the counter and also why a contract must be executed in order to purchase it.

I have extensively evaluated every RAAL ribbon tweeter, and have worked directly with Aleksander on the design of the tweeter in our S2, which eventually brought forth the OEM 64-10 (used in the BMR’s, Salk Song 3’s and many others), and I must agree with Aleks, the 70-20xr is the best they offer. The frequency response is exceptionally linear, and the horizontal polar response is shockingly good. It can also be crossed quite low and can handle insane amounts of power, thanks in part to the way it is damped.

That said, assuming crossover adjustments to compensate for frequency response deviations between the two tweeters – from about 3500Hz on up, the two tweeters sound very similar provided the 64-10 is operating well below its max thermal and dynamic capabilities. Even within that operating range, the 70-20xr does have a smoother overall sound (thanks to how it is damped) and does provide more detail due to the transformer design. The 70-20xr uses a higher performance transformer with less saturation and less core loss, this is even further reduced in the 70-20xr if upgrading to the 70-20xram, which uses an amorphous core transformer.

Of course, the big question comes in – are these differences actually audible? We have had customers who can easily detect differences between these 2 different RAAL’s – and we have had customers who have not been able to. Heck, we have also had customers who haven’t been able to hear a difference between a quality dome and a RAAL ribbon. As always, it really comes down to your own hearing. From a technical standpoint, the 70-20xr / 70-20xram is quite superior but that does come with a cost, as the 70-20xr is a significantly more expensive tweeter, even more so when upgrading to the Amorphous core option.

Now all that stated, even with a high crossover and steep slope, power handling and dynamics on the 64-10 is limited compared to the 70-20xr, and this is where the audible differences between the 2 tweeters becomes extremely evident.

Both of these tweeters are excellent, but they are in very different price brackets and I would say that within their price brackets, as good as it gets.

Please feel free to contact me directly if any further questions arise as I am not on AVS very often these days.

Hope this makes some sense!

Dave, thank you for shedding some light on this. There's too much misinformation out there where this stuff is concerned.


If the 70-20xr is that good, it's probably scary how good the new Diamond tweeter is!
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post #8016 of 9159 Old 03-15-2019, 07:43 AM
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point taken.. you bring up a good point, i get the feeling that even a few weeks ago that there was pressure for him to return though, i hope nothing more than Dennis enjoy his life , i hope he does whatever he wishes to do unencumbered with the weight of over expectations from any direction...i wish him peace of mind (something i am often searching for) and happiness...
Yes, everyone handles stress differently and I have had a couple episodes with work-related stress that made me slow down, at least temporarily! Hopefully Dennis can find his pace and enjoy other things, like grandkids and vacations and maybe eventually getting back to make some speakers for fun!

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post #8017 of 9159 Old 03-15-2019, 07:59 AM
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As I already said, at minimum this is an $1800 speaker... and if you consider returns, rejects, insurance, utilities, etc.... probably a $2 k speaker. And even at that price the BMR has very little competition.

I think they're easily a $2,000 speaker, even without upgrading to the Salk cabs. IMO they only start getting real competition if the price goes up to about $2,500/pair. At that point one has to consider the Ascend Sierra tower with the RAAL upgrade. Again all IMO.

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Originally Posted by Ascend View Post
I am not fully comfortable jumping into this thread, but I thought it best to answer this question as there is quite a bit of discussion. First off, I reached out to Dennis personally when I first heard of the sad news. While we are "competitors" - we have been "friendly competitors" for quite some time and we personally share a lot of common ground.


That said, assuming crossover adjustments to compensate for frequency response deviations between the two tweeters – from about 3500Hz on up, the two tweeters sound very similar provided the 64-10 is operating well below its max thermal and dynamic capabilities. Even within that operating range, the 70-20xr does have a smoother overall sound (thanks to how it is damped) and does provide more detail due to the transformer design.
Dave, thanks for the nice words about Dennis...i know you and he have exchanged many respectful words over the years and represent two of the really good guys in the industry!
Question, when you say "provided the 64-10 is operating well below its max thermal and dynamic capabilities." I assume you mean not pushed too loud or asked to play lower/below its capabilities?
Second question, how do the folded/pleated ribbons, like the AMT other perform compared to the RAAL and what are their limitations compared to the RAAL (the advantage obviously that they are cheaper)?
Thanks...
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Yes, everyone handles stress differently and I have had a couple episodes with work-related stress that made me slow down, at least temporarily! Hopefully Dennis can find his pace and enjoy other things, like grandkids and vacations and maybe eventually getting back to make some speakers for fun!
well said , i hope you didn't take my post personally. it really wasn't about you , actually no one in particular , i just wanted people to realize that *any* type of "i hope" direction of the thread could be stressful ...
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Originally Posted by RN2013 View Post
As I already said, at minimum this is an $1800 speaker... and if you consider returns, rejects, insurance, utilities, etc.... probably a $2 k speaker. And even at that price the BMR has very little competition.

I think they're easily a $2,000 speaker, even without upgrading to the Salk cabs. IMO they only start getting real competition if the price goes up to about $2,500/pair. At that point one has to consider the Ascend Sierra tower with the RAAL upgrade. Again all IMO.
Yeah. Personally, if BMRs were $2k, I would just get the Sierra towers. So that's my opinion!

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post #8021 of 9159 Old 03-15-2019, 01:42 PM
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Yeah. Personally, if BMRs were $2k, I would just get the Sierra towers. So that's my opinion!
Yes, it would be close...however, and we don't know if Salk Audio will continue the line or not, but the suggestion was that it would be done in prefab cabinets for 1500/pr. Even if Salk Audio needs a better profit margin, I doubt the price would jump to 2000/pr. At 1600 or 1800/pr, tell me what speaker would be as good or better?! Again, the plan before Dennis retired was to coordinate with Salk Audio for custom cabinet BMRs for 2000/pr...but who knows what is going to happen moving forward!

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Some of us actually put our bookshelf speakers in book shelfs and don't have an option for tower speakers. I'm waiting to see what Salk does and what the lead time is. I had emailed Philharmonic to order, but it was when Dennis was down and before we all knew what was going on.

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yes, that is a repost from the Audioholics web site where Dennis says he is retiring. posted on this thread a day or so ago...

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To some extent, afraid so.
Nobody knows the details, beyond what Dennis himself shared on the AH Forum.
I have an existing order with Dennis and Jim and am waiting, myself on some sort of clarity.
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yes, that is a repost from the Audioholics web site where Dennis says he is retiring. posted on this thread a day or so ago...
Ah, must have missed it. I've been following this thread with interest and thought that the arrangement was Jim Salk helping to fulfill orders. I did not know that Dennis was closing shop.

That's a big dent to the industry.
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Ah, must have missed it. I've been following this thread with interest and thought that the arrangement was Jim Salk helping to fulfill orders. I did not know that Dennis was closing shop.

That's a big dent to the industry.
indeed.
That reddit post was a quote of his post to the AH site on the 13th.


To my knowledge, no other news has been posted.


Jim will be offering to finish orders already in his house. Dennis has only one left to complete on his own, plus as he mentioned: some extra stock.

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I've followed this thread for some time, off and on. First off I'd like to extend get well wishes to Dennis for a quick recovery. It comes as a shock to hear Dennis is likely retiring. Sorry to hear about your health problems.

I've never heard the BMR's, being too far from any where those speakers traveled during their 'tour'. In a way I'm kind of glad they didn't come closer to me, I already have a very good sounding setup, the Song Towers being the 'center' - in a manner of speaking. My actual center speaker is a one-off Rick Craig creation, voiced to match the OW2 tweeter in the ST's. By far the best of the many center speakers I've owned over the years. Whenever I visit my sister I take another listen to the AA monitors I bought from Dennis a few years ago, and always marvel at how well they sound, needing no sub. I've recommended Salk, Philharmonic & Selah products to anyone who would listen. Pun intended!



Here's to you, Dennis, prayers for a speedy recovery.

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post #8029 of 9159 Old 03-16-2019, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by paulsan View Post
Some of us actually put our bookshelf speakers in book shelfs and don't have an option for tower speakers. I'm waiting to see what Salk does and what the lead time is. I had emailed Philharmonic to order, but it was when Dennis was down and before we all knew what was going on.

Paul
I had emailed and had some discusions with Dennis shortly before also. I was waiting to figure out if I should include a center in the order or not when everything happened. I hope Dennis has a full recovery and wish him the best. I do also hope that the BMR can live on while being offered from someone else or available via DIY.
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post #8030 of 9159 Old 03-16-2019, 07:55 AM
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If you look at the reddit thread about the real cost of running a business....and then look at actual speaker prices where you are able to get a handle on the transducer costs...my read, quick rule of thumb...internet based audio speakers often sell for about 3x (or more) the transducer cost...which covers the cabinet, crossover, employees, insurance, etc.




Salk is a business, they have employees, rent, etc. they need to make money....if you look over on Audio Circle, they have already said that they didn't make money last year and their prices are going up in April....why would they want to sell the BMR at a price that undercut their own current line up of speakers....or that didn't make them a reasonable profit?? So, if their transducer cost is in the $8-900 per pair range for a pair of BMRs....the selling price, in theory, should be at least $2500...but with Salk quality cabinets...maybe $3k....which is more in line with their other bookshelves.




This will be very interesting to watch and see what happens.





In the mean time, for anyone that doesn't have a gigantic room and wants to experience what a RAAL is capable of and wants as much full range as possible.....I'd suggest going to Ascend and buying a new pair of Sierra 2s and a Rythmik L12...for roughly $1800 total.....or keeping an eye on Audiogon or AudioCircle for ANY preowned pair of Salk's with a RAAL. Why preowned....because the big depreciation is out of the way and if you don't like them...or decide to move on, you aren't going to take much of a hit as the Salks hold their value.
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post #8031 of 9159 Old 03-16-2019, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by RN2013 View Post
If you look at the reddit thread about the real cost of running a business....and then look at actual speaker prices where you are able to get a handle on the transducer costs...my read, quick rule of thumb...internet based audio speakers often sell for about 3x (or more) the transducer cost...which covers the cabinet, crossover, employees, insurance, etc.

Salk is a business, they have employees, rent, etc. they need to make money....if you look over on Audio Circle, they have already said that they didn't make money last year and their prices are going up in April....why would they want to sell the BMR at a price that undercut their own current line up of speakers....or that didn't make them a reasonable profit?? So, if their transducer cost is in the $8-900 per pair range for a pair of BMRs....the selling price, in theory, should be at least $2500...but with Salk quality cabinets...maybe $3k....which is more in line with their other bookshelves.

This will be very interesting to watch and see what happens.

In the mean time, for anyone that doesn't have a gigantic room and wants to experience what a RAAL is capable of and wants as much full range as possible.....I'd suggest going to Ascend and buying a new pair of Sierra 2s and a Rythmik L12...for roughly $1800 total.....or keeping an eye on Audiogon or AudioCircle for ANY preowned pair of Salk's with a RAAL. Why preowned....because the big depreciation is out of the way and if you don't like them...or decide to move on, you aren't going to take much of a hit as the Salks hold their value.
I agree: we have seen many puzzle pieces that when put together don't show a flattering picture. Both Dennis and Jim have dropped hints. Retail cost of the BMR drivers, considering the Raal being a bit of an unkown: 175 for the ScanSpeak, 18 for the BMR, and ??? 400 ??? for the Raal? maybe more? Retail cost of those drivers for one speaker is already ~$600. Those are nice cabinets... well built and beautiful finish, easily $75 each if not more.


Indeed, If Jim is potentially taking over the 'existing' Philharmonic line of BMR and Phil 3, we will see a significant price jump for new builds. $2500 minimum for the BMR in a stock cabinet would not surprise me in the least.


My truest hope is that we will all still have access to great speakers at reasonable and competitive prices. Of course, Jim, and all other small designers need to be profitable in order to keep that alive for us! I hope there is a way forward for the BMR and Phil3, but more importantly, I hope that Jim and all other designers can be successful in their endeavors!!!


Beyond that, I also hope that the DIYers out there can rise to the occasion and and help bring new people and interest to the hobby. We need more people like Dennis at the front. People who love Music and Audio, who strive to learn and are willing to teach!
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post #8032 of 9159 Old 03-16-2019, 10:36 AM
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As Dennis is no longer in business there is another intriguing RAAL design out there that Selah Audio sells in their DIY section.

Ceramica 3 way tower ($1650/pr) and center ($900).

It seems these prices don't include cabinets though which are an additional cost.

http://www.selahaudio.com/kits

$3795 and $1700 for the finished speakers so the discount going DIY could still be substantial.
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post #8033 of 9159 Old 03-16-2019, 11:51 AM
 
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I was in the market for BMR speakers but.......

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Originally Posted by Ryanosaur View Post
I agree: we have seen many puzzle pieces that when put together don't show a flattering picture. Both Dennis and Jim have dropped hints. Retail cost of the BMR drivers, considering the Raal being a bit of an unkown: 175 for the ScanSpeak, 18 for the BMR, and ??? 400 ??? for the Raal? maybe more? Retail cost of those drivers for one speaker is already ~$600. Those are nice cabinets... well built and beautiful finish, easily $75 each if not more.


Indeed, If Jim is potentially taking over the 'existing' Philharmonic line of BMR and Phil 3, we will see a significant price jump for new builds. $2500 minimum for the BMR in a stock cabinet would not surprise me in the least.


My truest hope is that we will all still have access to great speakers at reasonable and competitive prices. Of course, Jim, and all other small designers need to be profitable in order to keep that alive for us! I hope there is a way forward for the BMR and Phil3, but more importantly, I hope that Jim and all other designers can be successful in their endeavors!!!


Beyond that, I also hope that the DIYers out there can rise to the occasion and and help bring new people and interest to the hobby. We need more people like Dennis at the front. People who love Music and Audio, who strive to learn and are willing to teach!
Maybe 2500 wouldn’t surprise you, but it will kill the demand for 95 percent of those that wanted them. If they charge 2500 for the BMR when it was selling for 1350 then they can keep it. Better to sell 1000 pair for 400 profit than 100 pair for 1000 profit. This speaker will have a very elastic price curve. And I don’t think anyone would buy it or basically. O one . Dennis was going to up the price to 1500 shipped if he returned from illness. That is basically 1400. He Obviously thought that price would make a slight profit and still send 50 to the Philharmonic he supported.

Sure go ahead and add another 1100 to the price. Sorry no thanks there are too many other options then. If the price went to 1750 in those very basic cabinets, then that would be fair and reasonable. But go above 1800 and you can keep them I would rather buy the ascend tower or from Selah. Salk should have more efficient operations than Dennis did also. I won’t be gouged. Maybe some of you think the speaker should be priced st 2500, then you buy it! But you that are advocating higher prices obviously aren’t going to buy it or why would you encourage someone to up the price on you? You wouldn’t. Period
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post #8034 of 9159 Old 03-16-2019, 12:15 PM
 
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Dennis obviously had his reasons for selling at 1350. I do not believe he was clueless economically. And even if he did make a mistake on pricing the BMR at 1350, then it was posted when it was a possibility he would return that he would be dripopping all speakers except the BMR and Phil 3 and raising the price of the BMR to 1500 shipped. So common sense and deduction would reasonably suggest that the issue wasn’t as much price and profit, but more production and the high demand of work place on Dennis. So what we know is 1500 shipped was already an adjusted price and that included a donation to a charity.

So then if Dennis was giving away his speakers for break even even at 1500 shipped, then why would he do that? Ignorance? No he is not that and is a smart man. Very. No if he was giving them away at break even it was because his passion was in getting a good product that benefitted his customers and was at a compelling value proposition.

So why would he even agree to give the rights away on the BMR to someone that would add 100% mark up or even 50%? That’s getting away from the goal I think he envisioned for the speakers. I would be very disappointed if he slowed these speakers, his brainchild, to go to someone that wants to up the price too much. Be better off just letting the design die and cease to exist, or better be released to the DIY community for a fee or license for the IP.

If anyone disagrees with this then great. Please respond to the merits of the post. Nothing personal
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post #8035 of 9159 Old 03-16-2019, 12:21 PM
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Maybe 2500 wouldn’t surprise you, but it will kill the demand for 95 percent of those that wanted them. If they charge 2500 for the BMR when it was selling for 1350 then they can keep it. Better to sell 1000 pair for 400 profit than 100 pair for 1000 profit. This speaker will have a very elastic price curve. And I don’t think anyone would buy it or basically. O one . Dennis was going to up the price to 1500 shipped if he returned from illness. That is basically 1400. He Obviously thought that price would make a slight profit and still send 50 to the Philharmonic he supported.

Sure go ahead and add another 1100 to the price. Sorry no thanks there are too many other options then. If the price went to 1750 in those very basic cabinets, then that would be fair and reasonable. But go above 1800 and you can keep them I would rather buy the ascend tower or from Selah. Salk should have more efficient operations than Dennis did also. I won’t be gouged. Maybe some of you think the speaker should be priced st 2500, then you buy it! But you that are advocating higher prices obviously aren’t going to buy it or why would you encourage someone to up the price on you? You wouldn’t. Period
Please don't misunderstand. I have no desire to justify a price hike on this, rather I would hope a way could be found that would continue to provide these speakers in line with Dennis' vision for costing. Whomever ends up with the rights to produce them going forward probably knows exactly the sentiment you just expressed, @Talltexan8 , and I do agree with you!
As I mentioned in a post above, I still have a slice of a Philharmonic order in Jim's house. With Dennis bowing out, I am fully in Jim's hands.
I expect I will learn the fate of that order on Monday, and am hoping it may continue forward in some manner, or that Jim will allow me and other clients the option of rolling our money into one of his speakers, or offering at least a partial refund of our deposits considering the unique and unfortunate situation.


However, the terms of Jim continuing these orders will, and should be strictly between he and the affected customers on an independent basis.


Regardless, I think the speculation is getting out of hand, and I apologize for my role fueling it. Though I do agree with @RN2013 's assertion about manufacturing costs, and that was the point of my previous post.
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post #8036 of 9159 Old 03-16-2019, 12:31 PM
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Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy

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Originally Posted by Talltexan8 View Post
Maybe 2500 wouldn’t surprise you, but it will kill the demand for 95 percent of those that wanted them. If they charge 2500 for the BMR when it was selling for 1350 then they can keep it. Better to sell 1000 pair for 400 profit than 100 pair for 1000 profit. This speaker will have a very elastic price curve. And I don’t think anyone would buy it or basically. O one . Dennis was going to up the price to 1500 shipped if he returned from illness. That is basically 1400. He Obviously thought that price would make a slight profit and still send 50 to the Philharmonic he supported.



Sure go ahead and add another 1100 to the price. Sorry no thanks there are too many other options then. If the price went to 1750 in those very basic cabinets, then that would be fair and reasonable. But go above 1800 and you can keep them I would rather buy the ascend tower or from Selah. Salk should have more efficient operations than Dennis did also. I won’t be gouged. Maybe some of you think the speaker should be priced st 2500, then you buy it! But you that are advocating higher prices obviously aren’t going to buy it or why would you encourage someone to up the price on you? You wouldn’t. Period

Drivers are $600 per bookshelf. Putting cost for drivers at $1200. Now try the 12 something component crossover cost for both. Now add in cabinets. Now add in labor.

$1350 was an insane price. $2500 is still an amazing price. I don’t think you realize how good you guys had it.

If you don’t want a killer deal, then so be it. Cause as far as I know, these are easily worth $4000.

And the fact that you can justify a low price simply because he “had” them priced like that is sickening, because clearly you are prioritizing your wallet’s padding over his personal health which he was sacrificing in order to give such a low price.
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)

Last edited by Russdawg1; 03-16-2019 at 12:34 PM.
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post #8037 of 9159 Old 03-16-2019, 12:38 PM
 
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Please don't misunderstand. I have no desire to justify a price hike on this, rather I would hope a way could be found that would continue to provide these speakers in line with Dennis' vision for costing. Whomever ends up with the rights to produce them going forward probably knows exactly the sentiment you just expressed, @Talltexan8 , and I do agree with you!
As I mentioned in a post above, I still have a slice of a Philharmonic order in Jim's house. With Dennis bowing out, I am fully in Jim's hands.
I expect I will learn the fate of that order on Monday, and am hoping it may continue forward in some manner, or that Jim will allow me and other clients the option of rolling our money into one of his speakers, or offering at least a partial refund of our deposits considering the unique and unfortunate situation.


However, the terms of Jim continuing these orders will, and should be strictly between he and the affected customers on an independent basis.




Regardless, I think the speculation is getting out of hand, and I apologize for my role fueling it. Though I do agree with @RN2013 's assertion about manufacturing costs, and that was the point of my previous post.
No I appreciate the discussion and your response. Thanks for sharing. Of course it is between Jim and Dennis on what they do. They can sell it for 3000 if they want. But I am just saying it is between me and my wallet that I won’t be overcharged. Ascend or Selah will get the business. Fact is Salk was already involved with the pricing on upgraded cabinets for 1800. No? Sure this is all speculation. That’s allowed and fair. I think we are just discussing where we think things are headed. That’s fair game, I would hate for anyone to take Dennis intellectual work and design and then over capitalize on his work. Keep it fair. Like I said get out your calculator and decide if it’s better to sell 500-1000 at $400 profit or sell 50-100 at 1000 profit. The speaker is appealing because it had a reputation of sounding good and costing 1350. Go up to 2000 or dare say 2500 and that dynamic and magic is gone. Few will buy it.
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post #8038 of 9159 Old 03-16-2019, 12:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
Drivers are $600 per bookshelf. Putting cost for drivers at $1200. Now try the 12 something component crossover cost for both. Now add in cabinets. Now add in labor.

$1350 was an insane price. $2500 is still an amazing price. I don’t think you realize how good you guys had it.

If you don’t want a killer deal, then so be it. Cause as far as I know, these are easily worth $4000.

And the fact that you can justify a low price simply because he “had” them priced like that is sickening, because clearly you are prioritizing your wallet’s padding over his personal health which he was sacrificing in order to give such a low price.
They aren’t worth 4000 period. Sorry I just disagree. That is hyperbole. They also aren’t worth 2500. They were selling for 1350 and if Dennis was losing so much per speaker sale then he would have upped the price long ago. Your post assumes he is economically and financially illiterate. This speaker existed for over 2 years and the price stayed there. The tipping point wasn’t the pricing but the increased demand caused by the roadshow and the online review that was well received.

My contention is simple, at 1350 he was probably breaking even. At 1750 there is both decent profit and still high demand. At 2500 it is no Better a value than ascends products or Selahs. And let’s just stop with the retail model comparisons because that’s apples to oranges. I would never pay retail for speakers. This is internet direct model.
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post #8039 of 9159 Old 03-16-2019, 12:56 PM
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Why don't we just wait to see what happens? Dennis wasn't paying retail for the drivers, so all the speculation about cost is pretty baseless. Whether Salk wants to continue offering a version with cabinets sourced from China rather than hand crafted is obviously Jim's decision. Perhaps offering as a little would be an option, but again his decision.
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post #8040 of 9159 Old 03-16-2019, 12:58 PM
 
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Drivers are $600 per bookshelf. Putting cost for drivers at $1200. Now try the 12 something component crossover cost for both. Now add in cabinets. Now add in labor.

$1350 was an insane price. $2500 is still an amazing price. I don’t think you realize how good you guys had it.

If you don’t want a killer deal, then so be it. Cause as far as I know, these are easily worth $4000.

And the fact that you can justify a low price simply because he “had” them priced like that is sickening, because clearly you are prioritizing your wallet’s padding over his personal health which he was sacrificing in order to give such a low price.
So my opinion is “sickening” ? Seriously you are going to reukt to that type argument and language? There is nothing sickening at all to use prior pricing as a logical guide to cost structure.

And how am I prioritizing my wallet over his health? That is absurd frankly as his pricing was his own pricing and his illness happened before I even come across the review and contemplated an order. What I believe something should cost and what it did cost wasn’t my decision and has no impact or bearing on anyone’s health. For you to even try and push such an odd theory is amazingly foolish and is a distraction from the merits of the discussion.
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