Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 280 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8371 of 9341 Old 04-21-2019, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BluesDaddy56 View Post
Absolutely agree. The new Maggie LRS seems to be a giant killer, especially for those interested more in music than HT and are looking for transparent towers that throw a wide and deep soundstage.
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As you know, the whole subject of pricing is complex. If you have a one off product...you have to price profitably. If you have a sequential line of products that someone can move up, you may price your entry product with a lower profit to build brand loyalty.

As an example... if the new Maggie LRS turns out to be 85% of their sales because no one moves up.... big problem I suspect.

This will be very interesting to watch this one and see what happens.

I heard these for the first time Sunday at AXPONA in Wendell's secret room (544) that wasn't part of the show. I was completely floored when I heard what you get for $650. Even at $2,000 I would have flipped.

I quickly texted my friend who went with me from C-bus to Chicago to get the hell up to room 544. He has what is now nearly a $700,000 system so I expected that he wouldn't be at all impressed. He flipped too. He ordered them as soon as he got home, but I waited until the next day to order and by then it took three days to get through.

Ok, neither of us was in the market for any more speakers as good gawd I already had eight pair. Now for the 9th. So he got two people who otherwise wouldn't have bought anything.

I'm very familiar with Magneplanar given that I've owned those speakers off and on for nearly 50 years, but I wasn't in the market for 3.7s or anything else. In my case and my friend's he didn't cannibalize sales of something more expensive because we wouldn't have bought anything.

Although it wasn't Magnepan's room, I did hear the 3.7i at the show and they were ok, but I much preferred what I heard from the LRSs. If I was in the market, I would have bought the LRSs over the .7s, 1.7s and 3.7i so therein lies the danger of cannibalizing some of his product line. Maybe Wendell just 'got lucky' with his setup or maybe they truly are that good. I'll see in a couple of weeks.
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post #8372 of 9341 Old 04-21-2019, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RN2013 View Post
One thing I don’t understand is why there aren’t more companies offering ribbon tweeters? At the Florida Audio Expo there were a lot of Be tweeters... and those on the $4k Ryan monitors sounded great.

I just saw that Tekton is offering a Be tweeter on their Lore for $1300??
I follow the Revel/harman thread and I remember Dr. Toole answered this once that they tested out ribbons and went a different way because they don't integrate with midrange/midwoofers well because of the different radiation patterns. They seem to value that greatly considering all of their current designs use a waveguide.
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post #8373 of 9341 Old 04-21-2019, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick Craig View Post
The price is $1,850/pair and this includes shipping to the mainland USA. The pictured cabinet was sourced from China and from the same supplier that Dennis was using for some of his designs. Current production is here in the USA for all of our cabinets and we no longer import any cabinets.

As far as the pricing of the parts the BMR doesn't use the Revelator woofer and has the less expensive Scan-Speak 18W8545. The SB Acoustics woofer utilizes more current engineering and was designed by former Scan-Speak engineers. It costs less because of where it's made (Indonesia) by a highly vertical-integrated company with large scale production abilities. If the same driver was produced in Denmark by Scan-Speak the cost would be much higher. The Filarmonica's midrange cost is twice as much as the BMR midrange and the tweeter similar in cost to the RAAL (the latter depending on the quantity purchased).

As for the true bass extension if you look at the Audioholics ground plane measurement of the BMR and the nearfield curve for the Filarmonica you'll have a good comparison. Both measurement methods work well and don't include room gain. I never quote in-room numbers because every room is different; in addition, you have issues with a low signal-to-noise ratio giving inaccurate results.
Rick,

I do apologize for not quite getting all the facts straight about the above speakers but often my time on the internet can be rather brief, hectic and at the same time, I was rather miffed at those guys who were being really.... well, let's just leave it there.

I have deleted the post.

As with most discussions, often the details are overlooked in order to make a point - and basically my point was that Dennis BMR's were underpriced - and it as well as other factors unfortunately cost Dennis' health and financial difficulties, using your company (that the other guy used as an example) to show the difference in price between the kit without a cabinet and a completed speaker. I clearly said in an earlier post that there are many costs in running a business to make speakers but was routinely ignored and argued with and got emotionally caught in the downward spiral.

I was not implying in any way that you don't make good - if not great speakers - at the prices you have.

Of course, I wish you (as well as any small audio manufacturer) much success in this difficult field!
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post #8374 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 12:57 AM
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I just caught up on the thread and wanted to chime in without re-lighting a fire. I've owned the BMR's for 3 years. If my house burned down tomorrow - I would absolutely re-purchase the BMR's at their new price. Speakers and speaker design is an art. To boil it down to a value based purely on the sum of the parts is really missing the point of why we are all here. We should all be thankful to have been graced with Dennis' & Salks presence on this site. Salk is a fantastic guy and it pains me to see unwarranted criticism towards one of the best in the business.
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post #8375 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 12:42 PM
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Do the Salk versions come with a magnetic grill? If not, at the higher price I'd like to have seen something done about the exposed screws and drivers (trim ring, individual grills, etc)...perhaps to make them look like $2500 speakers and not DIY speakers in a fancy case.
All Salk speakers come with magnetic grills.
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post #8376 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
China? They are made in his factory here in San Clemente, CA...?

Dave takes pride in his speakers, he would never do that.
And Dave's many thoughtful emails to me have been a great source of support. He is a classy gentleman who truly loves speakers and music.
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post #8377 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
And Dave's many thoughtful emails to me have been a great source of support. He is a classy gentleman who truly loves speakers and music.

I could not agree more Dennis.

Hope you are well
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8378 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
And Dave's many thoughtful emails to me have been a great source of support. He is a classy gentleman who truly loves speakers and music.
Dennis, I hope you are doing well! I will send you an email about the potential purchase of another Phil_BMR pair, if you still have any unspoken for...

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post #8379 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 02:13 PM
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Dennis, I hope you are doing well! I will send you an email about the potential purchase of another Phil_BMR pair, if you still have any unspoken for...
Hi Elihawk I would like nothing better than to ship you another pair of BMR's, but I'm sold out. They went quickly. I don't even have a personal pair.
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post #8380 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 02:44 PM
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Hi Elihawk I would like nothing better than to ship you another pair of BMR's, but I'm sold out. They went quickly. I don't even have a personal pair.
yes, i figured so! Thanks Dennis and I am glad to hear they all sold..that speaker is so good, others should get to hear it!

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post #8381 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 03:21 PM
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@PhilharmonicDennis
Great to see you hear, as always! Congratulations on selling through your BMRs! (Even as it is a bittersweet accomplishment.)
Please keep getting better. I look forward to chatting with you when you are home and ready.
Best,
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post #8382 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 05:55 PM
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I would imagine that Ascend is now the high-end best deal around. (I would pretty much bet that all their speakers are assembled in China??? Anyone know?)



I really can't imagine finding any company that could do what Dennis did at his prices.
No speaker manufactured or sold under the Ascend Acoustics name is fully assembled in China. All Ascend speakers are assembled and tested here at our factory in SoCal. This includes even our lower priced line (CBM-170 etc.) - although admittedly, it is becoming very difficult to maintain this without raising retail prices.

We take things a step further with our towers and most of our newer Sierra line - with even the cabinets themselves being made here in SoCal.

The complexity of manufacturing our towers and horizons is extremely challenging.

For example, the following components used in our towers are all consigned from different companies, most being located here in the US.

Bamboo needed for the cabinets
Cabinets
Woofers
Tweeters
Crossovers
Binding Posts
Port tubes
Damping material
Packaging (boxes and molded foam)
Spiked feet
Labels
Felt (for wrapping each cabinet prior to shipping)
Required Fasteners

Just to build 1 pair of our towers, requires that we receive components from 13 different companies. It's rather insane, if I forget to place even one PO, or if one company is late to deliver the components, it sets us back. As an example, our bamboo supplier (the absolute best quality bamboo available, and we have tried them all) has had some issues for the past ten months - resulting in a massive backorder for our horizons and towers. Luckily for us - we finally received a container of bamboo about 8 weeks ago.

If I may add some additional perspective -- I am quite confident that I have more experience in this industry than any other individual in the factory direct (ID) speaker industry. And likely more than most in the brick and mortar speaker industry as well... I have seen so many companies close up shop over my now 35 years of experience, and I can only recall (2) that did it right without leaving a trail of damage behind them. One is Adire (although they are back with new ownership) - the other is Philharmonic. Dennis didn't shut down due to not being able to pay his bills, or faulty products, or lack of sales - he did it by choice, in looking after his own personal well being.

I absolutely understand his decision, the work load we endure to provide exceptional products at very reasonable prices is truly monumental. It requires incredible sacrifice - I often joke about how I have 2 fulltime jobs. One during the day here at our factory testing speakers all day long while assisting in helping customers and running a small company - the other job starts when I get home - answering emails and doing R&D into the early morning hours.

I think to many consumers, it might seem as though what we do is simple with high profits. Trust me, it is just the opposite - and we must actually make a profit on what we manufacture to not only cover our expenses (employees, insurance, rent and a dozen others) - but we also must feed our families. Ascend's profit margins are laughably low (not even a single product over a 50% margin, most at 40%, - industry standard is at least 60%) - we have never raised our prices yet our costs and expenses continually increase year after year. Prices on some of our products will also be increasing, we don't want to do this, it is something we must do.

Jim priced the BMR where he needed it to be in order for him to add it to his line (hopefully Dennis will receive a royalty) I am sure it will do fine at that price point as well. There is/was no reason to bicker over this and it accomplishes nothing but causing Dennis more stress.

David Fabrikant

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post #8383 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 05:56 PM
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They went quickly. I don't even have a personal pair.
Dennis, welcome back. I would gladly let you borrow my L/C/R BMRs anytime
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post #8384 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 05:59 PM
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This will be very interesting to watch this one and see what happens.

I heard these for the first time Sunday at AXPONA in Wendell's secret room (544) that wasn't part of the show. I was completely floored when I heard what you get for $650. Even at $2,000 I would have flipped.
I'm tempted to order a pair myself, even though I really don't have room or a need. I've a pair of MMGs that I still love, but are in the LR and rarely get listened to. But I'm sorely tempted to order a pair of LRS, and use them as the LR, use the MMGs as rears, and do a 4.1 (phantom center) in the LR for those few occasions there is some listening going on in there.
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post #8385 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 05:59 PM
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Jim priced the BMR where he needed it to be in order for him to add it to his line (hopefully Dennis will receive a royalty) I am sure it will do fine at that price point as well. There is/was no reason to bicker over this and it accomplishes nothing but causing Dennis more stress.

This!


Thank you.


R
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post #8386 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 06:03 PM
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Jim priced the BMR where he needed it to be in order for him to add it to his line (hopefully Dennis will receive a royalty) I am sure it will do fine at that price point as well. There is/was no reason to bicker over this and it accomplishes nothing but causing Dennis more stress.
Great perspective, and much appreciated. I will note that while I may have a different perspective regarding the current pricing of the BMR (and I hope Dennis is getting a royalty as well), I don't consider anything I did "bickering" - simply expressing an perspective that some didn't appreciate.

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post #8387 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick Craig View Post
The price is $1,850/pair and this includes shipping to the mainland USA. The pictured cabinet was sourced from China and from the same supplier that Dennis was using for some of his designs. Current production is here in the USA for all of our cabinets and we no longer import any cabinets.

As far as the pricing of the parts the BMR doesn't use the Revelator woofer and has the less expensive Scan-Speak 18W8545. The SB Acoustics woofer utilizes more current engineering and was designed by former Scan-Speak engineers. It costs less because of where it's made (Indonesia) by a highly vertical-integrated company with large scale production abilities. If the same driver was produced in Denmark by Scan-Speak the cost would be much higher. The Filarmonica's midrange cost is twice as much as the BMR midrange and the tweeter similar in cost to the RAAL (the latter depending on the quantity purchased).

As for the true bass extension if you look at the Audioholics ground plane measurement of the BMR and the nearfield curve for the Filarmonica you'll have a good comparison. Both measurement methods work well and don't include room gain. I never quote in-room numbers because every room is different; in addition, you have issues with a low signal-to-noise ratio giving inaccurate results.
Just to note, after discussing with Rick, my center that he is doing will be using the SB Acoustics rather than the Scanspeaks in the BMR. Since I use a couple of Rythmik subs already, the little bit of extra extension the Scanspeaks offer wasn't worth the added cost to me. I'll proved some insight, once all assembled and completed, as to how they match up in my system.

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post #8388 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 06:11 PM
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I'm tempted to order a pair myself, even though I really don't have room or a need. I've a pair of MMGs that I still love, but are in the LR and rarely get listened to. But I'm sorely tempted to order a pair of LRS, and use them as the LR, use the MMGs as rears, and do a 4.1 (phantom center) in the LR for those few occasions there is some listening going on in there.

This is the same story for me and everyone else so far that I know who has ordered. The broker in my brokerage also ordered today. Of course, we worked at a dealer 45 years ago or so and both had several Magnepans and Magneplanars. He was just waiting for me to confirm that I (really) liked them. I need these like I need another hole in my ……… head.
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post #8389 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Ascend View Post
No speaker manufactured or sold under the Ascend Acoustics name is fully assembled in China. All Ascend speakers are assembled and tested here at our factory in SoCal. This includes even our lower priced line (CBM-170 etc.) - although admittedly, it is becoming very difficult to maintain this without raising retail prices.
Thanks for chiming in David. May you continue to have much success.
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post #8390 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 09:17 PM
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This will be very interesting to watch this one and see what happens.

I heard these for the first time Sunday at AXPONA in Wendell's secret room (544) that wasn't part of the show. I was completely floored when I heard what you get for $650. Even at $2,000 I would have flipped.

I quickly texted my friend who went with me from C-bus to Chicago to get the hell up to room 544. He has what is now nearly a $700,000 system so I expected that he wouldn't be at all impressed. He flipped too. He ordered them as soon as he got home, but I waited until the next day to order and by then it took three days to get through.

Ok, neither of us was in the market for any more speakers as good gawd I already had eight pair. Now for the 9th. So he got two people who otherwise wouldn't have bought anything.

I'm very familiar with Magneplanar given that I've owned those speakers off and on for nearly 50 years, but I wasn't in the market for 3.7s or anything else. In my case and my friend's he didn't cannibalize sales of something more expensive because we wouldn't have bought anything.

Although it wasn't Magnepan's room, I did hear the 3.7i at the show and they were ok, but I much preferred what I heard from the LRSs. If I was in the market, I would have bought the LRSs over the .7s, 1.7s and 3.7i so therein lies the danger of cannibalizing some of his product line. Maybe Wendell just 'got lucky' with his setup or maybe they truly are that good. I'll see in a couple of weeks.
Could also try Spatial Audio. Much easier to place in the room and wider dynamic range.

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post #8391 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 09:23 PM
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Could also try Spatial Audio. Much easier to place in the room and wider dynamic range.

So you were in the lil secret Magnepan room too. I guess it wasn't very secret.
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post #8392 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 10:17 PM
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Thanks for chiming in David. May you continue to have much success.

You do know it’s Dave right? Lol!

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8393 of 9341 Old 04-22-2019, 10:36 PM
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You do know it’s Dave right? Lol!

Well, I was going to use that but at the bottom of the post, it does say David Fabrikant.
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Well, I was going to use that but at the bottom of the post, it does say David Fabrikant.

Oh. I’ve been brainwashed by his email in which it says Dave Fabrikant. I can’t believe I never noticed he signs his emails David Fabrikant. Lol!

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8395 of 9341 Old 04-23-2019, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by BluesDaddy56 View Post
....I don't consider anything I did "bickering" - simply expressing an perspective that some didn't appreciate.....
That's a good one.
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post #8396 of 9341 Old 04-23-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Ascend View Post
I think to many consumers, it might seem as though what we do is simple with high profits. Trust me, it is just the opposite - and we must actually make a profit on what we manufacture to not only cover our expenses (employees, insurance, rent and a dozen others) - but we also must feed our families. Ascend's profit margins are laughably low (not even a single product over a 50% margin, most at 40%, - industry standard is at least 60%) - we have never raised our prices yet our costs and expenses continually increase year after year. Prices on some of our products will also be increasing, we don't want to do this, it is something we must do.

Jim priced the BMR where he needed it to be in order for him to add it to his line (hopefully Dennis will receive a royalty) I am sure it will do fine at that price point as well. There is/was no reason to bicker over this and it accomplishes nothing but causing Dennis more stress.

It's amazing that some people seem to think that making a profit is tantamount to some sort of crime. That you and Jim Salk have had to explain basic economics in this thread is both a sad commentary about some of the forum members, but also a testament to the transparency and accessibility of you two as business owners. I hope you both have continued success.

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post #8397 of 9341 Old 04-23-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by fatbulkexpanse View Post
It's amazing that some people seem to think that making a profit is tantamount to some sort of crime. That you and Jim Salk have had to explain basic economics in this thread is both a sad commentary about some of the forum members, but also a testament to the transparency and accessibility of you two as business owners. I hope you both have continued success.
or it could be people "equate"(mistakenly) a normal profit margin to the corruption that has been made common in the top 5% of the retail world..

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post #8398 of 9341 Old 04-23-2019, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by fatbulkexpanse View Post
It's amazing that some people seem to think that making a profit is tantamount to some sort of crime. That you and Jim Salk have had to explain basic economics in this thread is both a sad commentary about some of the forum members, but also a testament to the transparency and accessibility of you two as business owners. I hope you both have continued success.
It's amazing to me how some people think questioning a significant increase in the price of a product equates to an attack on the free market system.
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post #8399 of 9341 Old 04-23-2019, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by fatbulkexpanse View Post
It's amazing that some people seem to think that making a profit is tantamount to some sort of crime. That you and Jim Salk have had to explain basic economics in this thread is both a sad commentary about some of the forum members, but also a testament to the transparency and accessibility of you two as business owners. I hope you both have continued success.
First I thought we were all moving on from the bickering? Guess not as you keep fanning the flames. Meanwhile, You are making the classic strawman argument. I don't think anyone here said a small profit was not ok. Where did you get that?

The price of the speakers went from $1350 to 2400. How much profit is there in that? I don't know but if you are any good at your processes and manufacturing then it isn't 5%. But I don't care if it is 5% or 50%, I wont be paying $2400 or $2600. I have yet to see one person admit that they would be purchasing at $2400 or $2600. If it is such a great deal then put your money where you claims are and buy a pair. I noticed several people here wanted to buy one of those last 15 pairs off dennis at $1500 shipped and they are gone like hotcakes. Just go ahead and get them for $2600.

Furthermore, it makes no sense to talk about a commercial product(and yes the BMR is a commercial product) without the trade off between performance and price. Value is the most important thing. Its a great little speaker and like I said if the sale from my friend that is selling his falls through then I will get the Vigore Kit from Selah.
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post #8400 of 9341 Old 04-23-2019, 10:28 AM
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The price is $1,850/pair and this includes shipping to the mainland USA. The pictured cabinet was sourced from China and from the same supplier that Dennis was using for some of his designs. Current production is here in the USA for all of our cabinets and we no longer import any cabinets.

As far as the pricing of the parts the BMR doesn't use the Revelator woofer and has the less expensive Scan-Speak 18W8545. The SB Acoustics woofer utilizes more current engineering and was designed by former Scan-Speak engineers. It costs less because of where it's made (Indonesia) by a highly vertical-integrated company with large scale production abilities. If the same driver was produced in Denmark by Scan-Speak the cost would be much higher. The Filarmonica's midrange cost is twice as much as the BMR midrange and the tweeter similar in cost to the RAAL (the latter depending on the quantity purchased).

As for the true bass extension if you look at the Audioholics ground plane measurement of the BMR and the nearfield curve for the Filarmonica you'll have a good comparison. Both measurement methods work well and don't include room gain. I never quote in-room numbers because every room is different; in addition, you have issues with a low signal-to-noise ratio giving inaccurate results.

Since we all seem to agree much of the labor and cost is in the cabinets, maybe Rick could put together a Kit for the BMR or something close? Not sure what his relationship with Dennis is. That would be a nice option to get the performance into more peoples hands that may have limited disposable income.
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