Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 285 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8521 of 9298 Old 05-01-2019, 12:40 PM
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The choice was probably made to keep the speaker under $1K. I'm not sure if I'd equate that with a $30 dayton being "just as good" as a $175 Scan Speak. Almost as good I could see...

It is a sealed box though, so in that instance maybe one is just as good as the other.
Indeed... the frequency response and performance of the old AA Monitor with the Dayton Tweeter is solid... the AA+ with the Morel Tweeter is fabulous. And however the XO was modified, the $22 (retail price) Dayton Woofer tests pretty flat with Dennis' touch. Lesson: you don't have to put premium drivers in every hole of the cabinet. Tectonic Balanced Mode Radiator, anybody!???!
If I could learn two things from Dennis, it would be how to pick drivers, and how to optimize XOs!
An old Chef of mine once said, anybody can take exceptional ingredients and make wonderful food; the true skill comes in taking the ordinary and making it into something extraordinary! It is one of the top restaurants in the US, and while I was cooking there, we had the honor of earning the highest food rating in the nation from Zagat voters 2-yrs running. Our beef wasn't Wagyu cattle, or from a prestigious ranch in OR, it wasn't Prime... We served USDA Choice beef tenderloin.

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post #8522 of 9298 Old 05-01-2019, 02:05 PM
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Hi All!
Just got my teaser photo from Jim yesterday!
HOLY WOW, those are spectacular looking! While I really like the natural wood look, the blue stain is damn nice...
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post #8523 of 9298 Old 05-02-2019, 05:14 AM
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Indeed... the frequency response and performance of the old AA Monitor with the Dayton Tweeter is solid... the AA+ with the Morel Tweeter is fabulous. And however the XO was modified, the $22 (retail price) Dayton Woofer tests pretty flat with Dennis' touch. Lesson: you don't have to put premium drivers in every hole of the cabinet. Tectonic Balanced Mode Radiator, anybody!???!
If I could learn two things from Dennis, it would be how to pick drivers, and how to optimize XOs!
An old Chef of mine once said, anybody can take exceptional ingredients and make wonderful food; the true skill comes in taking the ordinary and making it into something extraordinary! It is one of the top restaurants in the US, and while I was cooking there, we had the honor of earning the highest food rating in the nation from Zagat voters 2-yrs running. Our beef wasn't Wagyu cattle, or from a prestigious ranch in OR, it wasn't Prime... We served USDA Choice beef tenderloin.
As Dennis said about this woofer...paraphrasing...if it ain't broke, why try to fix it! It isn't a high end driver, but can produce a nice FR and hit suprisingly low for a cheap paper cone driver. Witha little XO magic, some bracing and then the morel tweeter..bang a fantastic speaker for 300/pr!
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post #8524 of 9298 Old 05-02-2019, 11:41 AM
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As Dennis said about this woofer...paraphrasing...if it ain't broke, why try to fix it! It isn't a high end driver, but can produce a nice FR and hit suprisingly low for a cheap paper cone driver. Witha little XO magic, some bracing and then the morel tweeter..bang a fantastic speaker for 300/pr!
In a $300 bookshelf I 100% agree. But the linked speaker (with a dayton woofer) started at $1000 and went up from there.
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post #8525 of 9298 Old 05-02-2019, 12:50 PM
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In a $300 bookshelf I 100% agree. But the linked speaker (with a dayton woofer) started at $1000 and went up from there.
Okay, missed that we weren't talking about Dennis second generation AA...

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post #8526 of 9298 Old 05-02-2019, 12:53 PM
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In a $300 bookshelf I 100% agree. But the linked speaker (with a dayton woofer) started at $1000 and went up from there.
The BMR has an $18 component. Does that make it less of a speaker?
The skill of the designer to choose components and integrate them is what makes the whole greater than the sum of its parts. How they do so is a measure of the skill of the designer.

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post #8527 of 9298 Old 05-02-2019, 01:01 PM
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The BMR has an $18 component. Does that make it less of a speaker?
The skill of the designer to choose components and integrate them is what makes the whole greater than the sum of its parts. How they do so is a measure of the skill of the designer.

That's the mid so I don't necessarily mind it being an $18 part. He chose good speakers where it counted (woofer and tweeter)...along with the crossovers that he's so skilled at.

I'd rather have the money put toward the important components, which he did with the BMR. If an $18 mid compliments those, that's fine.
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post #8528 of 9298 Old 05-02-2019, 01:35 PM
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The BMR has an $18 component. Does that make it less of a speaker?
The skill of the designer to choose components and integrate them is what makes the whole greater than the sum of its parts. How they do so is a measure of the skill of the designer. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

That's the mid so I don't necessarily mind it being an $18 part. He chose good speakers where it counted (woofer and tweeter)...along with the crossovers that he's so skilled at.

I'd rather have the money put toward the important components, which he did with the BMR. If an $18 mid compliments those, that's fine.
I would argue that getting the midrange right is the most important part of the speaker.

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post #8529 of 9298 Old 05-02-2019, 02:06 PM
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I would argue that getting the midrange right is the most important part of the speaker.

I'd argue that they are all important with a speaker in that price range.
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post #8530 of 9298 Old 05-02-2019, 02:21 PM
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I would argue that getting the midrange right is the most important part of the speaker.

I'd argue that they are all important with a speaker in that price range.
Of course they are. That's like saying every part of a speaker is important. But the majority of the information we hear is in the midrange. We're even more sensitive to it than the other frequencies. Your comment made it seem like it's okay if the midrange driver is a "whatever works" kind of thing. Sorry if that isn't what you meant.
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post #8531 of 9298 Old 05-02-2019, 02:49 PM
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That's the mid so I don't necessarily mind it being an $18 part. He chose good speakers where it counted (woofer and tweeter)...along with the crossovers that he's so skilled at.

I'd rather have the money put toward the important components, which he did with the BMR. If an $18 mid compliments those, that's fine.
I do understand and am not just arguing for the sake of it. Promise!
You have a valid point... but the upgrade towards a mid level woofer and subsequent XO optimization adds another, say, $300 to the cost of the pair. A premium woofer makes it a 1600 pair, perhaps. In either case, what does that do to the potential sales? I can't speak for Rick or his design goals there, but if he made that driver choice out of interest in having a pair at the $1000 price point, and he, like Dennis, skillfully integrated the drivers with a well optimized XO, and the performance meets or exceeds his goal for the product: success! Much like my inquiry about the Illuminoso Kit and potentially replacing the Satori Be Tweet with the Raal 70-20XR, he quoted me the cost of goods increase as well as cost to modify the XO.
On the other hand, I think a midrange driver is exceedingly important in a 3-way build: not a place to skimp for the sake of saving money on a build. Is it possible to put a low-cost dayton in place, as opposed to an accuton, in one of Salk's speakers? What if the BMR were redone with the same BG mid from the Phil 3, or the opposite... put a Dayton in there? (Yes, I'm being a little hyperbolic in those examples.) I think it's important to trust in the execution. If you looked at the FR of a BMR or a Salk build, and everything was flat except for the mids... you'd be like, "what the hell?!" That's the skill and execution of the designer. That's as much a factor in the cost of the final product as the COGS alone.
And then... if you want to step up and customize that build, or go to the next level, both Jim and Rick, I'm certain, would find a way to make that a possibility.

This is just my opinion. YMMV.

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post #8532 of 9298 Old 05-02-2019, 04:07 PM
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Hi All!
Just got my teaser photo from Jim yesterday!
YEAH!!! So SWEEEEEEEET
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Dayton makes good drivers, and even their budget lines are solid. Rick knows his business, as does Dennis, so I'd have no problem with a lower priced driver in one of their designs.

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Posted my phil 3.... really nice. Just dont need 4 pairs...

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For what it’s worth, I just ordered some 3.5” BMRs Upcoming project this summer....

Also, I don’t believe the choice for the BMR in the BMR speaker was due to cutting costs or compromising or diverting funds somewhere else to “components that matter more”. In fact, the BMR is a very good component that performs phenomenally (check the response by itself) and would be a “compromise” NOT to use it. It’s a fabulous driver. Oh it’s only $18? Well so be it, that saves the consumer a few bucks instead of utilizing a $500 Accuton midrange
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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I just had to share this. This is a 3-way DIY speaker using what looks like the same cabinet Dennis used to use.

Click image for larger version

Name:	56FFFF47DC04C1970BD38B88A3F5C298.app1_1522267775488_L1800.jpg
Views:	51
Size:	73.1 KB
ID:	2561808

It is using this tweeter: https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...eeter--275-085

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Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy

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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I just had to share this. This is a 3-way DIY speaker using what looks like the same cabinet Dennis used to use.



Attachment 2561808



It is using this tweeter: https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...eeter--275-085

Selah Audio uses the Dayton Audio 2” dome midrange in their Filarmonica.



Edit: What speaker is that? I think that’s an RS Woofer also from Dayton and the same 2” midrange the Filarmonica uses.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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For what it’s worth, I just ordered some 3.5” BMRs Upcoming project this summer....

Also, I don’t believe the choice for the BMR in the BMR speaker was due to cutting costs or compromising or diverting funds somewhere else to “components that matter more”. In fact, the BMR is a very good component that performs phenomenally (check the response by itself) and would be a “compromise” NOT to use it. It’s a fabulous driver. Oh it’s only $18? Well so be it, that saves the consumer a few bucks instead of utilizing a $500 Accuton midrange
*thumbs up


My only point is: don't judge it by the price alone.

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*thumbs up


My only point is: don't judge it by the price alone.

Couldn’t agree more Ryan!

Tell Jim to ship your Phil 3’s faster!

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8540 of 9298 Old 05-03-2019, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I just had to share this. This is a 3-way DIY speaker using what looks like the same cabinet Dennis used to use.

Attachment 2561808

It is using this tweeter: https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...eeter--275-085
I know Dennis tried both a square (which I own) and a curved (which he hated for space reasons) for the early Phil- BMR before he settled on the final version...I can't tell from your photo, is that the curved cabinet?

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For anyone who wants to try a RAAL loudspeaker (with really great sounding Seas midwoofers set in a transmission line for a powerful and deep low end) ....this seems like a really good deal....


Salk Veracity STs ($4700 new) listed for $3k...compared to new BMRs for $2600.
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post #8542 of 9298 Old 05-03-2019, 07:44 AM
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I don't want to get the thread sidetracked as I'm not questioning any of the drivers in the BMR.


Honest question though...how many people would really pay over $1K for a 2-way bookshelf speaker with a $30 Dayton woofer in it? That had better be one fantastic sounding speaker.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _tk View Post
I don't want to get the thread sidetracked as I'm not questioning any of the drivers in the BMR.





Honest question though...how many people would really pay over $1K for a 2-way bookshelf speaker with a $30 Dayton woofer in it? That had better be one fantastic sounding speaker.

Well how many people pay $100000+ for a speaker that has no more than $2000 in components in it?

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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Originally Posted by _tk View Post
I don't want to get the thread sidetracked as I'm not questioning any of the drivers in the BMR.


Honest question though...how many people would really pay over $1K for a 2-way bookshelf speaker with a $30 Dayton woofer in it? That had better be one fantastic sounding speaker.
If I were in the market for such a thing I would consider it as I would any other speaker. I'll look at it later against my notes for some of the speakers I was considering back when I ordered from Dennis. I didn't know about Selah then. But I kept my research notes on all the stuff I considered.

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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
For what it’s worth, I just ordered some 3.5” BMRs Upcoming project this summer....

Also, I don’t believe the choice for the BMR in the BMR speaker was due to cutting costs or compromising or diverting funds somewhere else to “components that matter more”. In fact, the BMR is a very good component that performs phenomenally (check the response by itself) and would be a “compromise” NOT to use it. It’s a fabulous driver. Oh it’s only $18? Well so be it, that saves the consumer a few bucks instead of utilizing a $500 Accuton midrange
I've worked with the new Accuton mid ($$$$$$$$$$$) for a custom project, and preferred the BMR.
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post #8546 of 9298 Old 05-03-2019, 09:29 AM
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Dennis,

Since Philharmonic Audio is no more, I assume when the website is up for renewal, you won't pay?

Has anyone made a copy of the pages on the website in case this is so?

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post #8547 of 9298 Old 05-03-2019, 09:32 AM
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I've worked with the new Accuton mid ($$$$$$$$$$$) for a custom project, and preferred the BMR.

Oh wow, that’s very impressive. Thanks for sharing Dennis.

By chance was it the 6.5” ceramic cone neodymium driver?

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8548 of 9298 Old 05-03-2019, 09:48 AM
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Edit: What speaker is that? I think that’s an RS Woofer also from Dayton and the same 2” midrange the Filarmonica uses.
Scroll down to the reviews and the builder explains he crossed the planar tweet at 5.6k. I guess he really wanted to make sure he maintained some power handling up top.
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post #8549 of 9298 Old 05-03-2019, 09:52 AM
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Scroll down to the reviews and the builder explains he crossed the planar tweet at 5.6k. I guess he really wanted to make sure he maintained some power handling up top.

Yeah, I see that now, and confirms that they are indeed the Dayton 2” midrange and RS Woofer.

Lots of people making line arrays with these, I wish I had that much money do do a dual driver line array, but will settle for a single driver.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8550 of 9298 Old 05-03-2019, 10:00 AM
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Do it, Russ, do it!

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