Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 286 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8551 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 10:00 AM
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Do it, Russ, do it!

"Rock and roll is alive and alright" Sloan
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post #8552 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by charmerci View Post
Since Philharmonic Audio is no more.
What a sad statement. I, for one, am really thankful to have been able to purchase a few speakers from Dennis, albeit the humble yet amazing Affordable Accuracy Monitors and Center Channel.
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post #8553 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by _tk View Post
Honest question though...how many people would really pay over $1K for a 2-way bookshelf speaker with a $30 Dayton woofer in it? That had better be one fantastic sounding speaker.
I'm guessing the vast majority of the population won't research the details of what the individual components are. They are going to listen for themselves or read reviews. You have to remember, we here on the forums are a small minority of the buying population. Manufacturers rarely will cater to our needs no matter how vociferous we are. Unless it hits them in the wallet, manufacturers not make changes to satisfy the few unhappy customers. Audio is a little different as I do see many manufacturers on this forum responding, but this is not the case in most of the other product forums I am on. As the saying goes, the whole is more than just a sum of the parts. Where do we draw the line at low cost components in high dollar speakers? Or any product for that matter. Do we say that's a $20K speaker, why are they using cheap copper wire? At that cost they should be using gold clad, silver wire.

Personally, I prefer low cost parts in good systems. It would be a lot cheaper for me to replace an $18 driver when it eventually fails or gets damaged vs. replacing a driver that costs several hundred dollars which I have already had to do. It's the same when I have to fix my car. If a low cost product will perform just as well as a high dollar part it's better for me in the long run. I guess if you regularly replace products just because you want to try something new then replacement parts cost is no a factor. For me, I tend to keep things until they can no longer be fixed or if there is a true need.
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post #8554 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 10:15 AM
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Do it, Russ, do it!

My MiniDSP is on the way, I’m sampling drivers at the moment

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8555 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 10:22 AM
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Get some SB Acoustics Satori's and call it a day. I really like the ring domes. There's a lot of nice builds out there with them.
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post #8556 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 10:26 AM
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Get some SB Acoustics Satori's and call it a day. I really like the ring domes. There's a lot of nice builds out there with them.

I can’t afford to do a 25 driver line array with Satori Woofers and Ring Domes!

At the moment at least
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8557 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 10:32 AM
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I was thinking of a nice little two-way, but you might as well go big or go home.

"Rock and roll is alive and alright" Sloan
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post #8558 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Vergiliusm View Post
I was thinking of a nice little two-way, but you might as well go big or go home.

Two ways are overrated.

Line arrays are louder, have better response, look cooler, and don’t follow the inverse square law (only lose 3dB every time you double the listening distance).

Not to mention, who owns a line array? Who has even built one?
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8559 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 10:48 AM
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By chance was it the 6.5” ceramic cone neodymium driver?[/QUOTE]

Nope. It was the $577 2" Cell unit. I couldn't get it to sound as clean as the BMR. It also has to be crossed quite high (over 800 Hz).
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post #8560 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 11:06 AM
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By chance was it the 6.5” ceramic cone neodymium driver?


Nope. It was the $577 2" Cell unit. I couldn't get it to sound as clean as the BMR. It also has to be crossed quite high (over 800 Hz).[/QUOTE]


Oh the cell drivers, very cool. Something that small must not have very high power handling.

What’s the power handling on the BMR? Ryan is giving his upwards of 50 watts if I remember correctly.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8561 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 11:27 AM
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I assume you saw this, Russ. I agree with Dennis that it deserves more attention than it got here.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...er-design.html
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post #8562 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Vergiliusm View Post
I assume you saw this, Russ. I agree with Dennis that it deserves more attention than it got here.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...er-design.html
Thanks for posting that link. I don't know why it hasn't stirred up more interest. The designer is an extremely talented guy who specializes in radar wave theory. He's applied elements of that theory to speaker radiation patterns, and achieves pretty much all of the characteristics of a line source without comb filtering and a gazillion drivers. I'm not easily impressed, but I thought the speaker was dead on in neutrality, and its artfully restricted vertical dispersion and extremely wide horizontal dispersion (plus an excellent and complex crossover) provides more of a "you are there" quality than conventional loudspeakers. I was so taken aback that I had Jim Salk fly down for a listen.
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post #8563 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Vergiliusm View Post
I assume you saw this, Russ. I agree with Dennis that it deserves more attention than it got here.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...er-design.html

I had not actually seen this. That is a very cool design. I’m miles away from this sort of ingenuity.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8564 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 12:12 PM
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The designer is an extremely talented guy who specializes in radar wave theory. He's applied elements of that theory to speaker radiation patterns, and achieves pretty much all of the characteristics of a line source without comb filtering and a gazillion drivers.
Wait, it's hard enough for many of us at the hobbyist level to grasp even some of the aspects of traditional design, and now we have to learn radar wave theory too?

But seriously, that's very interesting. I think many members, if they're like me thinking in the vein of traditional design, don't even know the right questions to ask. When I saw the pictures, the first thing that came to mind was some of the old wide baffle designs of the '60s & '70s, and that it looked like a comb filtering nightmare.
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post #8565 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 12:39 PM
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I'm guessing the vast majority of the population won't research the details of what the individual components are. They are going to listen for themselves or read reviews. You have to remember, we here on the forums are a small minority of the buying population. Manufacturers rarely will cater to our needs no matter how vociferous we are. Unless it hits them in the wallet, manufacturers not make changes to satisfy the few unhappy customers. Audio is a little different as I do see many manufacturers on this forum responding, but this is not the case in most of the other product forums I am on. As the saying goes, the whole is more than just a sum of the parts. Where do we draw the line at low cost components in high dollar speakers? Or any product for that matter. Do we say that's a $20K speaker, why are they using cheap copper wire? At that cost they should be using gold clad, silver wire.

Personally, I prefer low cost parts in good systems. It would be a lot cheaper for me to replace an $18 driver when it eventually fails or gets damaged vs. replacing a driver that costs several hundred dollars which I have already had to do. It's the same when I have to fix my car. If a low cost product will perform just as well as a high dollar part it's better for me in the long run. I guess if you regularly replace products just because you want to try something new then replacement parts cost is no a factor. For me, I tend to keep things until they can no longer be fixed or if there is a true need.

I get that, but you don't seem to be the type that'd look at a $1K 2-way sealed bookshelf in the first place (going by what you just said).

Going back to the BMR...the reason why I like the design is because it was engineered around really good quality parts that were great at what they did. And if you look at something like the AA+, it did use less expensive components...but it was also priced in-line with what was being used (even though it sounded really good by any standard).

And let's not go down the rabbit hole of speaker wire and such. I don't look down upon any manufacturer that uses normal copper wire, regardless of the cost of the component.

Because I missed out on the Philharmonic offerings, I've been thinking about building the Carmody Carrera kit as it offers top-shelf drivers and components for not a lot of money. Those Scan Speak's and Hiquphon's are fantastic drivers and I can always find somewhere to put a bookshelf speaker...
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post #8566 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 02:18 PM
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I get that, but you don't seem to be the type that'd look at a $1K 2-way sealed bookshelf in the first place (going by what you just said).
You are right in that I wouldn't be looking at $1K bookshelves sealed or otherwise. That's because I would never consider bookshelves at any price for any real music listening. This has nothing to do with the fact that they are not capable system. It's just a personal preference in that I wouldn't want to spend money on a bookshelf speaker then spend more money and effort to put them on properly weighted stands. I'd rather just pony up for the full tower version of those speakers and get all the benefits that come with it. Generally, the cost of the full tower isn't that much more than a bookshelf + stand and the footprint will be about the same. Unless you get to the uber expensive models, but at that point if I can afford them I'm sure the price difference would not really matter to me.

What about my post would give the impression that I would not be the type to look at bookshelf speakers in the $1K range? Are you saying I wouldn't spend that much or that I'm a price snob and am only looking at high dollar speakers that use only the highest price components? I'm not really sure which you are implying.


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And let's not go down the rabbit hole of speaker wire and such. I don't look down upon any manufacturer that uses normal copper wire, regardless of the cost of the component.
While silver is a better conductor material than copper, I don't buy into any of the snake oil claims regarding special wires that cost thousands per foot. Like I said in my previous post, if an $18 part is going to do that same sufficient job as a part that is hundreds of dollars, give me the $18 part and price the end product accordingly. My statement about the silver wire is just a facetious remark about expecting high dollar end products to contain expensive components.
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post #8567 of 8960 Old 05-03-2019, 07:11 PM
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Wait, it's hard enough for many of us at the hobbyist level to grasp even some of the aspects of traditional design, and now we have to learn radar wave theory too?
Not long after I accepted my job, I was contacted for an interview with a speaker and electronics manufacturer. I decided I was too passionate about speakers to have some fool manager telling me how to do design them (and also telling me where I had to pinch pennies). So I kept speakers as a pleasant hobby. As it turns out, the job I kept (which is only loosely related to speakers) may have been the place I needed to be to gain the experience and inspiration necessary to make something radical.

One interesting thing about making something different from the types of things you can audition at your local hi-fi shop is that the entire time I was building it, I wasn't sure I'd like it. I was completely open to the idea that the project would prove to be a useless failure. But based on the reading I had done, I theorized that it should sound good. I was hoping that it would give a greater sense of the recording space, and more detail, but there was no way to be sure. I've heard that listening to stereo in an anechoic chamber is very disappointing, so I was concerned.

When I finished the project, I liked what I heard (a lot) but I was still concerned that my own biases might be influencing my perception, so I contacted Dennis to get his opinion. Dennis has golden ears and incredible integrity, and there's no one whose opinion about speakers I would value more highly. I couldn't bring the speakers to his house, but he was nice enough to visit mine. (Did anyone on this forum know that Dennis is a super nice guy!?) When my speakers received his approval, I knew I had made something good... and something I'd like to share with others.

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Originally Posted by Vergiliusm View Post
But seriously, that's very interesting. I think many members, if they're like me thinking in the vein of traditional design, don't even know the right questions to ask. When I saw the pictures, the first thing that came to mind was some of the old wide baffle designs of the '60s & '70s, and that it looked like a comb filtering nightmare.
Eliminating comb filtering was one of the main points of building the speaker the way I did. That's why I use a single tweeter, while most line arrays use upwards of 20 full range drivers.

If someone can point me to a realtime spectral analyzer program that doesn't re-normalize the data when the volume changes, then I'd like to make a video review of the Radical speakers. That way I can play pink noise and move the mic around in realtime and the viewers will be able to see and hear the impact. The one I downloaded will show the spectral changes (or lack there-of), but hides the changes in level by re-normalizing constantly.

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post #8568 of 8960 Old 05-04-2019, 10:31 AM
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Honest question though...how many people would really pay over $1K for a 2-way bookshelf speaker with a $30 Dayton woofer in it? That had better be one fantastic sounding speaker.
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If I were in the market for such a thing I would consider it as I would any other speaker. I'll look at it later against my notes for some of the speakers I was considering back when I ordered from Dennis. I didn't know about Selah then. But I kept my research notes on all the stuff I considered.
I did want to follow up on this, but in the interest of brevity will avoid a deep dive. Disregarding that the Compatto is sealed and most of what I was shopping for fell into the ported market... following are comparisons of speakers I had on my list:
Compatto, 2-way sealed, FR 66Hz-20kHz (+/-3dB), $995/pr

Monitor audio Silver 100 : 2-way ported, FR 40-35kHz (-6dB), $1049/pr
Martin Logan Motion 35XT: 2-way ported, FR 50-25kHz (+/-3dB), $1200/pr
Ascend Acoustics Sierra Luna: 2-way ported, FR (anechoic) 65Hz-35kHz (+/-3dB), $1148/pr
Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2: 2-way ported, FR (anechoic) 46Hz-38kHz (+/-3dB), $1448/pr
Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 (not upgraded): 2-way ported, FR (anechoic) 44Hz-22kHz (+/-3dB), SALE $720/pr (??800reg??)
Philharmonic Audio Mini Philharmonitor: 2-way sealed, FR 65Hz-20kHz (+/-2dB), $695/pair (I own a pair currently used as surrounds, soon to be rears or repurposed once Phil 3s are in place)



Again, this is just comparing lay-data that most random shoppers would look at. I had other speakers on my list too, but specifically in the mindset of spending ~$5K on a 7-channel rig, these were in line with the upper tier of that price class. To me, nothing out of line with the pricing for the Compatto... In fact, had I known about Rick/Selah last year, I may very well have been talking to him as well as Eric, Dennis, Jim, and Dave. And as I've stated my previous love affair with the Monitor Audio Silver Series, its important to note that many people are not comfortable breaking away from the established reality of mass market commerce. I was one of them! My own fleeting interest in Tekton is what opened the door for me to consider the ID market; that and the insanely amazing things I heard about Dennis, Jim, and Dave's speakers.



Cheers, all!


Back to our regularly scheduled programming.
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post #8569 of 8960 Old 05-04-2019, 10:55 AM
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Hi All!
Just got my teaser photo from Jim yesterday!
I received an email from Jim on Thursday: My speakers were packed and the Freight pick-up was scheduled... He was troubled by an anomaly in the FR testing of the 3s, still within spec, yet he wanted to unpack and look at them again. It was determined that there is a XO modification and they are now going through a refit to address that change, and the speakers will ship next week.
I wanted to share this little tidbit as it gets to the heart of my experience with both Dennis and Jim.
Jim didn't have to do this. I would have been no wiser had he not reached out to me and suggested we delay.

@PhilharmonicDennis @jsalk
My continued gratitude for all of your efforts, care, and love for what you do! Thank you!


Best,
R

7.2: Marantz SR6012, Outlaw Model 2200 (L/C/R/SL/SR)
Philharmonic Phil 3 (L//R) BMR (C) BMR (SL/SR) Dayton Tweeter AA Monitors (RL/RR) Outlaw X-13
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post #8570 of 8960 Old 05-04-2019, 11:14 AM
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I received an email from Jim on Thursday: My speakers were packed and the Freight pick-up was scheduled... He was troubled by an anomaly in the FR testing of the 3s, still within spec, yet he wanted to unpack and look at them again. It was determined that there is a XO modification and they are now going through a refit to address that change, and the speakers will ship next week.
I wanted to share this little tidbit as it gets to the heart of my experience with both Dennis and Jim.
Jim didn't have to do this. I would have been no wiser had he not reached out to me and suggested we delay.

@PhilharmonicDennis @jsalk
My continued gratitude for all of your efforts, care, and love for what you do! Thank you!
Best,
R
I'm sorry for the delay. As you can understand, Jim had a lot of balls to juggle when I went out of commission. I usually send him all of the parts for my speakers. I obviously couldn't do that from Sibley Hospital, so he had to figure out what parts to order. The Phil 3's crossover had to be modified 9 or 10 months ago when Parts Express could no longer get the original midrange. They were able to source a heavier duty version, but it was 8 ohms instead of 4 ohms, and had a slightly different response. Jim didn't focus on that change, since the midrange looked the same and he wasn't assembling the crossovers. For some reason or other I picked up on a potential problem when I was speaking with Jim just after he had packed up your speakers. I suspected he had used the last generation crossover, which just happened to produce a pretty flat response despite the change in midrange units. Neither Jim nor I wanted to send you speakers that weren't up to their full potential, so Jim unpacked the bass units (which house the crossovers) and is having his crossover builder make the necessary changes. Your 3's should measure flat as a pancake once the updated crossovers are installed.
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post #8571 of 8960 Old 05-04-2019, 11:21 AM
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I'm sorry for the delay. As you can understand, Jim had a lot of balls to juggle when I went out of commission. I usually send him all of the parts for my speakers. I obviously couldn't do that from Sibley Hospital, so he had to figure out what parts to order. The Phil 3's crossover had to be modified 9 or 10 months ago when Parts Express could no longer get the original midrange. They were able to source a heavier duty version, but it was 8 ohms instead of 4 ohms, and had a slightly different response. Jim didn't focus on that change, since the midrange looked the same and he wasn't assembling the crossovers. For some reason or other I picked up on a potential problem when I was speaking with Jim just after he had packed up your speakers. I suspected he had used the last generation crossover, which just happened to produce a pretty flat response despite the change in midrange units. Neither Jim nor I wanted to send you speakers that weren't up to their full potential, so Jim unpacked the bass units (which house the crossovers) and is having his crossover builder make the necessary changes. Your 3's should measure flat as a pancake once the updated crossovers are installed.
Ha! Neither you, nor Jim owe me an apology! You guys have been marvelous, and like I said: I am grateful for all of your efforts!!!


Best to you, Dennis!


BTW, are you back home yet??? (Hope so!)


Cheers!
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7.2: Marantz SR6012, Outlaw Model 2200 (L/C/R/SL/SR)
Philharmonic Phil 3 (L//R) BMR (C) BMR (SL/SR) Dayton Tweeter AA Monitors (RL/RR) Outlaw X-13
Sony XBR49X900F, Sony UBPX700
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post #8572 of 8960 Old 05-04-2019, 12:40 PM
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Ha! Neither you, nor Jim owe me an apology! You guys have been marvelous, and like I said: I am grateful for all of your efforts!!!


Best to you, Dennis!


BTW, are you back home yet??? (Hope so!)


Cheers!
Not quite back. But I will be on May 14.
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post #8573 of 8960 Old 05-06-2019, 06:37 AM
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Wondering if anybody here can help....

I have some philharmonic AA monitors and I have speaker grill pegs that have snapped off on both of my speaker grills. Wondering if anybody knows how to get some replacement screens that would fit these monitors. I seem to remember this being an issue with these so hoping somebody might have a suggestion.

Note: Dennis contacted me about how to replace the pegs so all set

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post #8574 of 8960 Old 05-06-2019, 10:36 AM
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In case anyone is in the market, there is a used pair of Salk Veracity STs for sale in the Audio Circles "classifieds" section. $3K plus shipping. As brand new are now just a shade under $4,700 for standard veneers and this appears to be a custom veneer job, this would be a killer deal for anyone looking at that price range. https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=162229.0

Display: Vizio P55-E1l Pre-pro: Marantz 7703; Amps: Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 1, H/K AVR 520 (direct in to amps); Sources: Sony UBP-X700; X-box 1 S; Technics 1200 Mk II; Win10 PC for digital; Phono Preamp: Emotiva XPS-1; Speakers - LR: Philharmonic BMR LR, Center: Emotiva Airmotiv C2; Surrounds: Wharfedale Reva-2; Rear Surrounds: Wharfedale Diamond 220; Atmos: TF - Monoprice Alpha 8; TR - BIC VI-38; Subwoofers: dual Rythmik L22s
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post #8575 of 8960 Old 05-06-2019, 10:40 AM
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In case anyone is in the market, there is a used pair of Salk Veracity STs for sale in the Audio Circles "classifieds" section. $3K plus shipping. As brand new are now just a shade under $4,700 for standard veneers and this appears to be a custom veneer job, this would be a killer deal for anyone looking at that price range. https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=162229.0
Hmm might be a toss up between those and the Sierra Towers w/RAAL. In terms of sound and value - I can't speak to the finishes.
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post #8576 of 8960 Old 05-06-2019, 10:43 AM
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Hmm might be a toss up between those and the Sierra Towers w/RAAL. In terms of sound and value - I can't speak to the finishes.
Without knowing what the shipping is going to run from the seller's location, these would wind up being three or four hundred more. But the cabinets, from the pictures, are amazing.

Display: Vizio P55-E1l Pre-pro: Marantz 7703; Amps: Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 1, H/K AVR 520 (direct in to amps); Sources: Sony UBP-X700; X-box 1 S; Technics 1200 Mk II; Win10 PC for digital; Phono Preamp: Emotiva XPS-1; Speakers - LR: Philharmonic BMR LR, Center: Emotiva Airmotiv C2; Surrounds: Wharfedale Reva-2; Rear Surrounds: Wharfedale Diamond 220; Atmos: TF - Monoprice Alpha 8; TR - BIC VI-38; Subwoofers: dual Rythmik L22s
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post #8577 of 8960 Old 05-06-2019, 11:07 AM
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Without knowing what the shipping is going to run from the seller's location, these would wind up being three or four hundred more. But the cabinets, from the pictures, are amazing.
Veracity STs, any day! Easily worth the cost of shipping, in my book.
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post #8578 of 8960 Old 05-06-2019, 12:01 PM
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Veracity STs, any day! Easily worth the cost of shipping, in my book.
Agreed. If I were in the market, I'd be exploring these.
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Display: Vizio P55-E1l Pre-pro: Marantz 7703; Amps: Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 1, H/K AVR 520 (direct in to amps); Sources: Sony UBP-X700; X-box 1 S; Technics 1200 Mk II; Win10 PC for digital; Phono Preamp: Emotiva XPS-1; Speakers - LR: Philharmonic BMR LR, Center: Emotiva Airmotiv C2; Surrounds: Wharfedale Reva-2; Rear Surrounds: Wharfedale Diamond 220; Atmos: TF - Monoprice Alpha 8; TR - BIC VI-38; Subwoofers: dual Rythmik L22s
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post #8579 of 8960 Old 05-07-2019, 06:10 PM
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Gonna wrap this up this coming Sunday (5/12). Wanted to post it one more time just in case some others wanted to donate to help Dennis. Many of you mentioned he probably doesn't NEED BMRs and that Jim would probably give Dennis a discount if he wanted to buy them. I plan to just provide the funds to Dennis and let him use it as he sees fit. I'm sure such a long stay in the hospital comes with a hefty bill so I wanted this campaign to provide some relief if needed.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/med-expen...-dennis-murphy

Thanks again to everyone that donated!
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post #8580 of 8960 Old 05-08-2019, 06:31 AM
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Anyone ever email Parts Express or Dayton Audio and ask if they have considered offering a "Dennis Murphy Version" of the Dayton Audio BR-1 kit? Seems like it wouldn't be too difficult to work out and would be very popular.
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--------------------------------------------------
FOR SALE:
Lots of stuff. Check the Audio Gear Classifieds
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