Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy - Page 298 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8911 of 8961 Old 06-07-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by PhilharmonicDennis View Post
I just want to make sure everyone realizes that any BMR kit offerings would include (1) no cabinets, just parts, schematics, and cabinet plans), (2) parts, schematics, and flat packs) (3) parts, schematics, and finished cabinets. Assembled crossovers would also probably be an option.

So it's happening???? I'm really interested in having an option to try the BMRs at a price point lower than Jim's offering. While I love Jim's work, I can't afford Song3s AND BMRs, too.
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post #8912 of 8961 Old 06-07-2019, 08:58 AM
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Wouldn't surprise me at all if it was DaveF. As a happy owner of both Ascend and Philharmonic, I have always thought of Dave and Dennis as being of similar mindset in terms of design; it's the reason I own those brands. The reviews of the BMRs always read to me like the reviews of the Sierra Towers, except of course that the BMRs were cheaper. (The Salk BMRs are now priced more like the Sierra Towers.)

But this is just idle speculation.
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post #8913 of 8961 Old 06-07-2019, 09:19 AM
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People, Dennis is a nice guy and he wants to do right for each person, so...

can we not keep asking him to do a speaker or buy the one he has or buy the one he's going to make? The pressure to make everyone happy ruined his health. One or two people doing it would be fine, but that total keeps going up and up and it may not end.

I'm sure when a project is finished, he'll make it available.
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post #8914 of 8961 Old 06-07-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by lewdogg View Post
So it's happening???? I'm really interested in having an option to try the BMRs at a price point lower than Jim's offering. While I love Jim's work, I can't afford Song3s AND BMRs, too.
I'm still waiting to hear back from Meniscus on finished cabinet matters. I'll prod them a little today.
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post #8915 of 8961 Old 06-08-2019, 06:41 AM
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[quote=bvk_houtx;58133956]
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I am the lucky winner. These speakers will replace a pair of unmodified Pioneer BS-22 speakers I use in my home office. I'm looking forward to hearing the upgrade. Thanks again to Dennis.
I received the speakers on Thursday. They were very well protected in shipping. They look beautiful and the sound is a big upgrade from the Pioneer BS-22s. Of course I expected that but hearing is believing. It's hard to describe but everything sounds clearer. So much sound out of such a small package. These speakers will provide background music in my office. Thanks again to Dennis for delivering a quality product.
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post #8916 of 8961 Old 06-08-2019, 08:44 AM
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[quote=bvk_houtx;58156832]
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Originally Posted by bvk_houtx View Post
I received the speakers on Thursday. They were very well protected in shipping. They look beautiful and the sound is a big upgrade from the Pioneer BS-22s. Of course I expected that but hearing is believing. It's hard to describe but everything sounds clearer. So much sound out of such a small package. These speakers will provide background music in my office. Thanks again to Dennis for delivering a quality product.
that sounds like a great start .. enjoy them.. they will surely make work a bit more relaxing...

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post #8917 of 8961 Old 06-11-2019, 07:05 AM
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maybe this question is for Dennis, but also for anyone who has heard the BMR as a midrange driver. First, my thoughts...while I think the RAAL is the "star" of the Phil-BMR, providing excellent clarity and detail at the high end, there is no question the BMR driver is excellent as a midrange, especially its broad and terrific horizontal dispersion. And, add to that that it is not a high cost driver, I wonder why other speakers aren't using it in this role (as best I can tell, Cambridge Audio uses it as full- range in the Minx speakers, as a tweeter in the Areo. I am sure other speakers use it as well.
I know the drawbacks are sensitivity and a I believe it is a 4 ohm speaker...other than that, what are the reasons why this very inexpensive and excellent driver isn't more widely used?
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post #8918 of 8961 Old 06-11-2019, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
maybe this question is for Dennis, but also for anyone who has heard the BMR as a midrange driver. First, my thoughts...while I think the RAAL is the "star" of the Phil-BMR, providing excellent clarity and detail at the high end, there is no question the BMR driver is excellent as a midrange, especially its broad and terrific horizontal dispersion. And, add to that that it is not a high cost driver, I wonder why other speakers aren't using it in this role (as best I can tell, Cambridge Audio uses it as full- range in the Minx speakers, as a tweeter in the Areo. I am sure other speakers use it as well.
I know the drawbacks are sensitivity and a I believe it is a 4 ohm speaker...other than that, what are the reasons why this very inexpensive and excellent driver isn't more widely used?
I think the BMR is used in sound bars and commercial applications where decent sound is wanted for minimum cost and size, but the 8 ohm version is probably more widely used than the 4 ohm. However, the best of the breed is the 4 ohm I'm using, and I suspect most speaker companies want greater sensitivity. You just can't get 88 dB out of a single BMR, and you can't parallel two of them because you would be down to 2 ohms right out of the gate.
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post #8919 of 8961 Old 06-12-2019, 07:50 AM
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yes, so anyone who want to design a high SPL speaker with sensitivity above 88db or so wouldn't be able to use this driver...
I remember Cambridge Audio claims that the BMR speaker was "more full range" than the typical 2 or 3 inch driver, but then again, the Minx speaker can't hit below 200hz. I think it hits better at the high end that say a 2 inch Bose cubes, however...

When a speaker manufacture claim there 2" driver (insert 5 or 6") can hit low than most models because of the design, I get that you might get lower distortion with some designs, but still...according to physics, a 2, 3 or 6 inch driver is only capable of going so low! I know, cabinets, ports, room all have to be figured in...what am I missing when Speaker X says our 5 inch drivers can hit lower that speaker Y's 5 inch drivers and the aren't talking about cabinets, ports, etc?

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post #8920 of 8961 Old 06-12-2019, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
yes, so anyone who want to design a high SPL speaker with sensitivity above 88db or so wouldn't be able to use this driver...
I remember Cambridge Audio claims that the BMR speaker was "more full range" than the typical 2 or 3 inch driver, but then again, the Minx speaker can't hit below 200hz. I think it hits better at the high end that say a 2 inch Bose cubes, however...

When a speaker manufacture claim there 2" driver (insert 5 or 6") can hit low than most models because of the design, I get that you might get lower distortion with some designs, but still...according to physics, a 2, 3 or 6 inch driver is only capable of going so low! I know, cabinets, ports, room all have to be figured in...what am I missing when Speaker X says our 5 inch drivers can hit lower that speaker Y's 5 inch drivers and the aren't talking about cabinets, ports, etc?
There will be a wide range in bass extension among similarly sized drivers, depending mostly on sensitivity. But there will also be a big variation in optimal cabinet size and tuning, and probably suspension, motor design, use of copper, adaptability to transmission line loading, etc. The 8" Revelator in my Phil 3 is good down to 25 Hz in a TL. You won't find many (if any) other 8" drivers that can do that. If a manufacturer is claiming greater low frequency extension, you have to assume that's for a given cabinet and tuning, and you better also check out the sensitivity. As for the BMR driver, I'm involved in a project to produce a high-output controlled-vertical-dispersion tower with multiple BMR drivers wired to maintain 4 ohms.
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post #8921 of 8961 Old 06-12-2019, 10:04 AM
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@PhilharmonicDennis

Seems like a design worth waiting for.

:-)
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@PhilharmonicDennis

Seems like a design worth waiting for.

:-)
I hope it works out. About a month into my BMR ownership, I'm still amazed at how good the mid-range sounds. It just sounds remarkably accurate. And that with a room that has turned out to be quite a bit more of an acoustical nightmare than I was anticipating. I'm super looking forward to getting some wall treatments up and giving the BMR's a room that comes closer to matching their accuracy. But even without treatments, they still sound fantastic.
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post #8923 of 8961 Old 06-12-2019, 10:51 AM
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Can you achieve a spacious sound with such controlled directivity, though?

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Can you achieve a spacious sound with such controlled directivity, though?
Only the vertical dispersion is controlled. The horizontal would be about the same as for the stock BMR.
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post #8925 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 04:55 AM
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There will be a wide range in bass extension among similarly sized drivers, depending mostly on sensitivity. But there will also be a big variation in optimal cabinet size and tuning, and probably suspension, motor design, use of copper, adaptability to transmission line loading, etc. The 8" Revelator in my Phil 3 is good down to 25 Hz in a TL. You won't find many (if any) other 8" drivers that can do that. If a manufacturer is claiming greater low frequency extension, you have to assume that's for a given cabinet and tuning, and you better also check out the sensitivity. As for the BMR driver, I'm involved in a project to produce a high-output controlled-vertical-dispersion tower with multiple BMR drivers wired to maintain 4 ohms.
interesting...so you are wiring them in series to maintain the load? or a combo of series and parelel? Is this a line array or different arrangement?

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post #8926 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 06:59 AM
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interesting...so you are wiring them in series to maintain the load? or a combo of series and parelel? Is this a line array or different arrangement?


I assumed 4; 2 each in parallel, with the two pairs in series.


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post #8927 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 08:03 AM
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I assumed 4; 2 each in parallel, with the two pairs in series.


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Or a quad series of quad parallel.. Lol

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post #8928 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 09:27 AM
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interesting...so you are wiring them in series to maintain the load? or a combo of series and parelel? Is this a line array or different arrangement?
We're still mulling over whether to do a WMMTMMW or a WMTMW. There are tradeoffs between high sensitivity and precision in the control of vertical dispersion. But for the more complex driver arrangement, it would be a combo of series and parallel.
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post #8929 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 09:31 AM
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We're still mulling over whether to do a WMMTMMW or a WMTMW. There are tradeoffs between high sensitivity and precision in the control of vertical dispersion. But for the more complex driver arrangement, it would be a combo of series and parallel.

What drivers are you considering for the tweeter? A ribbon I’m guessing?

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8930 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 09:48 AM
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What drivers are you considering for the tweeter? A ribbon I’m guessing?
First off, this is an experiment and it may end up going nowhere, and if it does go somewhere, it won't be soon. The intention is to make it as close to the BMR as possible, only with higher sensitivity and controlled vertical dispersion. So it will use the same RAAL tweet. We can't use the same woofer because the crossover target slope requires a woofer that is absolutely smooth in the 1k - 2k region, which the 8545 isn't. If we stick with a 7" woofer, we would use the Scan Revelator in a transmission line loading. In that configuration, the bass would only be down 3 dB at 30 Hz.
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post #8931 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 10:22 AM
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Well, if anyone was thinking Dennis was going to retire fro the speaker biz, think again! Thanks for the information, i learn new things everyday and when i retire, I am going to take up the DIY hobby of speaker making. So I better start to learn more about speakers than reaching for the credit card...
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And, add to that that it is not a high cost driver, I wonder why other speakers aren't using it in this role (as best I can tell, Cambridge Audio uses it as full- range in the Minx speakers, as a tweeter in the Areo. I am sure other speakers use it as well.
I know the drawbacks are sensitivity and a I believe it is a 4 ohm speaker...other than that, what are the reasons why this very inexpensive and excellent driver isn't more widely used?
Cambridge and the Boston Acoustics M-Series are the only that I'm aware of. Boston only used the BMR in their center channel and surround speakers but not in their mains....Interesting! I really would like to try a set of these out but the towers are scarce and were a little pricey originally.

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post #8933 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 11:28 AM
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Very Interesting and a little mysterious. They appear to be using the 8-ohm BMR, but its sensitivity would be way too low. So I'm not sure what's happening in the BMR department.
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post #8934 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 11:32 AM
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What drivers are you considering for the tweeter? A ribbon I’m guessing?
First off, this is an experiment and it may end up going nowhere, and if it does go somewhere, it won't be soon. The intention is to make it as close to the BMR as possible, only with higher sensitivity and controlled vertical dispersion. So it will use the same RAAL tweet. We can't use the same woofer because the crossover target slope requires a woofer that is absolutely smooth in the 1k - 2k region, which the 8545 isn't. If we stick with a 7" woofer, we would use the Scan Revelator in a transmission line loading. In that configuration, the bass would only be down 3 dB at 30 Hz.
Just a heads up, the woofer used in the Buchardt S400 would be a solid choice. Designed by the person who made the Revelator supposedly, but tamed breakup modes near the crossover, which is 2k in that speaker.

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post #8935 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 12:46 PM
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Just a heads up, the woofer used in the Buchardt S400 would be a solid choice. Designed by the person who made the Revelator supposedly, but tamed breakup modes near the crossover, which is 2k in that speaker.
The stock 8531 is smooth as silk at 2k. I was able to hit the target slope precisely with the rev, so I don't think there would be any need to change.
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post #8936 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 03:41 PM
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Not saying for this project, but have you used one of SBA's Satoris? It seems like they and the Revelators are often compared when high quality mid-woofs are wanted.

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post #8937 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 03:58 PM
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Not saying for this project, but have you used one of SBA's Satoris? It seems like they and the Revelators are often compared when high quality mid-woofs are wanted.
I've tried a bunch of Satori's and SB Acoustic woofers, and I had reservations about all of them except the 7.5" Satori. I think Scan is the real deal, and I stick with them whenever I can.
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post #8938 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 04:32 PM
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Well the Scans speak for themselves (how do like that? ), but I'm curious what issues you had with the Satori's?
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post #8939 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 04:51 PM
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Well the Scans speak for themselves (how do like that? ), but I'm curious what issues you had with the Satori's?
I was thinking of asking the same, too...
SBAcoustics seem to be well liked by many right now... I can think of a few using them fairly extensively. In fact, I'd kind of like to take it a step further and include Seas in the question, as well. These seem to be the big three that people look at in terms of "premiums." If there are others, I'd like to know!


Cheers!
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post #8940 of 8961 Old 06-13-2019, 05:05 PM
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I was thinking of asking the same, too...
SBAcoustics seem to be well liked by many right now... I can think of a few using them fairly extensively. In fact, I'd kind of like to take it a step further and include Seas in the question, as well. These seem to be the big three that people look at in terms of "premiums." If there are others, I'd like to know!
Salk seems to like Eton and Audio Technology drivers, as well.
Vergiliusm likes this.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Emotiva E2 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)
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